The Night / Crow ones are obvious. You have Night (Fae related) as the "spiritual". Via command of the lesser nature spirits, Glomdoring will not only survive, it will thrive; they are they keystone of our conquest. Crow is the more physical; the flora and fauna of the world are your domain, and with your direction they will drown the Basin in blood.
The trickiest is the third. It needs to be able to mesh with both of the others, so Wyrden Supremacy is out; all in Glomdoring are supposed to support the Wyrd, so putting it in one faction kind of takes it away from the others. All need to have aspects of the Wyrd baked in. I would suggest something self-focused (both of the others are influencing outside external forces). Something where, in essence, you preach internalizing the Wyrd to enhance yourself while the other coalitions stamp it permanently into the world around us. The Cult of the Wyrdling or something (there is nothing in Glomdoring that reflects this ideology any more powerfully than the Wyrdling itself).
Edit: Note, any name I give EVER is subject to revision, I do not do well at naming. The important part is the concept, anyways.
Just some random thoughts catching up on the discussion.
Re quests for skills, I'm not terribly confident that this is a good idea. Nothing is more frustrating to a newbie trying to get into the game than hurdles to get your skills. Cavaliers are different insofar that we specifically don't want newbies to take that skillset because of the requirement (and understanding) of mounts, so a quest made sense there."
I like the idea of quests for some skills in theory but I'm not sold on an effective implementation of the idea in MMOs in general let alone Lusternia in particular - the concern that quests for skills would discourage newbies is reasonable and valid. -Personally I think that any skill rewards from a quest should be reserved for (1)optional skills in a skill set (deaging in Aeonics or the animate dead ability in Necromancy) and/or (2) slanted towards end-game skills (Mythical to Transcendent to give an arbitrary range). -prior to this I was not aware that Cavaliers already have a quest to obtain Cavalier related skills - The potential of griefing which would result in additional complaints and forum anger. As we see in quests that are not specifically conflict quests in lusternia (like org cubix quests) griefling individuals is going to occur. Even if the current toxic individuals who have a history of griefing were removed from the equation (ie banned, which would be inequitable), the structure of quests in lusternia consist of rooms where multiple individuals (hostile or otherwise) can congregate and NPC denizens that are hard coded to be influenced negatively by player skills. Even if skill quest denizens were coded to be immortal and refractory to a non-organization player's negative skills the skill quest could still be griefed by other players. Thus I think that even if skill quests are more widespread, the designers have to expect and be tolerant of an increase in anger/annoyance on this forum and other media. -- To look at other MMO's for examples for skill quests: In general I recall that skill quests were seen as more of a pain in World of Warcraft than something "fun" to do. Since in the Lusternia discussion we are talking about quests for functional skills rather than a trade skill like end game tier armory or something, the only MMO that I recall that had quests for combat/functional skills was the Warhammer MMO. I don't know how skill quests in Warhammer were receivedby players. I'm sure there are other examples in the literature out there.
I don't think anyone's suggesting any advanced quests for skills at this point. Personally, I definitely agree with you in that instance; we don't want quests a'la the Cavalier quest for every skill. Small ones, however, would be really interesting (compare it to having to enter one of the archways on the Elemental plane in order to learn psionics, for instance). Kiradawea made a couple more suggestions about quests that I completely agree with. The key is to keep those kind of quests very simple and very local; the org, and planes that the org touches, essentially. One thought would be to travel to the Night bubble in order to learn the Night specialisation for Glom, for instance, or the Moon bubble for Moon. Crow, perhaps postulating oneself to Crow or something, although truth be told I'm not that familiar with any other guilds.
BTW, one reason I didn't like 'factions' is because that implies some sort of conflict which was Xenthos' point (I think). Coalition is much better (thanks, Celina!).
Coalitions don't really even have to be about some hard core philosophy like Night and Crow. Could be as simple as the Bloodsport Regime for Glomdoring (just an example name, don't necessarily use it). In other words, a coalition could still resonate with Glomdoring but yet not have a hardcore philosophy as not everyone wants to be fanatical in that way. In fact, a 'neutral' (for lack of a better word) coalition could be the pivot vote that decides disagreements between the Night and Crow coalitions (not that would ever happen!). Night and Crow might consider Bloodsport as the rabble but know they need to be swayed to their side to pass any of their agenda.
I think it would make sense to keep Illuminati as a coalition in Gaudiguch. Maybe that's just me!
I agree, partly because I had this idea of where things might be headed.....
Illuminati are forbidden knowledge, the templar help makes them out as guardians of the Illuminati, I was kind of hoping the monks would be the assassins of secrets to make sure secrets don't spread.
We can do the Cult of the Hidden Temple (this is already a thing, I think; this will be mainly what Illuminati are about right now, plus the brawn of what is currently the Templars, with room for some monks who will be more secret-y murderers for the Illuminati), this is sort of the Enlightened concept of @Celina's. Then for her Primordial concept, maybe we can incorporate something about dragons. Dragons are awesome. I'm thinking just a nice, plain old House of Rapturous Revelries for those guys who just want to partaaaaayyyy!
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
For the record, I think templer as just the hired thugs of the illuminati is not exciting RP. So we're all just goons for someone more important, go us.
The ur'Guard will be an interesting one....they've existed for much longer than Magnagora, and are semi-independent from the city.
I would suggest something along the lines of the Church of Nil, the Machine Cult, and the Lich Lords for Magnagora. Covers demon worship, steampunky industrial techno-magic, and 'undeath is power'. Or maybe Church of the Taint instead of Church of Nil? Though everyone in Mag is supposed to like the Taint, so maybe it shouldn't have a faction more tied to it than others.
I got the impression that, in the Old Empire, the Paladins were those who guarded the Celestines and Aquamancers as the elite, becoming absolutely loyal to Celestia. The Ur'Guard were the bulk of the military might- those who you'd send in to do peacekeeping and put down rebellions, and similar everyday military operations. And the Templar... the Templar were for wholesale destruction, of the "We had to destroy the village to save it" type.
I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
Why not just start with two factions per org initially with some means by which at a later time a groups of like minded people's could petition the patron for a third. Newbies gain their class via the collegium mobs. All current guildhalls are opened up (with guild leader rooms removed) and you learn there. Current guild monies and creds go into city. No need for coalitions to start with buildings cause all tutors are there but can choose to erect one via the homestead process. This would give each coalition something to work toward initially as a group cause yay bonding. I like run on sentences and rambling so bear with me.
New Celest -
The Exalted of Celestia
Collation Deux
Magnagora -
The Soveriegns of the Damned
The Iron Machine
Hallifax -
The Institute of Higher Emotions
Law & Order: Hallifax Victims Unit
Gaudiguch -
The Illuminati
Sacrosanct of the Pyres
Glomdoring -
The Merciless Court of Adaptation
A Threesome with Glumki, The Dog, and the Dark Lady
Serenwilde -
The Covenant of the Ancestors
Something Something Moon and Hart
Stupid iPad
The Covenant of Remembrance New Celest is defined by the fall of the Celestine Empire and by the catastrophe which resulted from Project Cosmic Hope. The Covenant of Remembrance vows to remember the sins of Old Celest and to learn from them. The Covenant argues that New Celest must occupy and hold all territory once governed by Old Celest and further that the great works of High Magic created by the Empire must be secured against any further tampering. That which cannot be made safe must regretably be destroyed. Only once this is done can New Celest become worthy of Her former glory and only then can the healing of the Basin begin again.
The Crucible of Purity Inspired by the Tahtetso teachings of Lumosis and the ascension of the Saints and the Archons, the Crucible of Purity seeks to create a crusading army that is one with the Light and proof against all corruption. Just as Methrenton the Crusader forges angelic weapons on Celestia to use against evil, so too does the Crucible seek to forge their own souls into weapons against the Taint. To do so, the monks of the Crucible live ascetic lives filled with endless physical training, unwavering religious conviction and perfect spiritual discipline. Anything sort of this is little more than frivolity in the face of the ongoing threats to New Celest's existence.
A Threesome with Glumki, The Dog, and the Dark Lady ...
Er....
We had batted around 2 coalitions per org with possible new faction later but there were concerns that it would be too stratified and three coalitions would be more dynamic.
You could always leave it up to the orgs how many they want. If they want two, then give them two. I think that's a better approach than forcing three on them and having all three half-filled, rather than having two coalitions with a decent amount of people in each.
I suggest folding the security ministry into one of the existing ministry positions or replacing a ministry, we have too many already. Get rid of steward.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
You could always leave it up to the orgs how many they want. If they want two, then give them two. I think that's a better approach than forcing three on them and having all three half-filled, rather than having two coalitions with a decent amount of people in each.
I'd have to agree with Esty on this one, 2 orgs sounds kind of flat. I'm not super fond of taking failed real life politics and making it an thing in game.
I've been hesitant and on the fence throughout the entire discussion on what we should do with guilds up to this point, but I've slowly allowed myself to be ok with the idea of moving onto a new system. It was @Maylea's post in this thread was what finally got my brain to switch from "ack, I don't know!" to "yes, we can do this." Her suggested coalitions are along the lines of things I'd be excited to see: groups that can attract all kinds of players, and unite them under interesting, flavorful ideals, not just basic "these people stab" and "these guys like to read" sorts of deals. Thank you so much, @Maylea, for this bit in particular: "It took me a while to get around to that. My immediate panic was that we'd lose things. But what factions should be - and I believe can be - about is what we retain, and what we add." :x It was perfect and honestly made my mind feel so much more at peace with this. You're absolutely right. We need to approach this with the mindset of adapting what we have and gaining new things along with it, not panicking over what might be lost.
Every coalition should be attractive to every type of player. I feel it should be a meaningful choice that deepens your character's place in their organization, not based around what activities the player wants to engage in. That is, I don't think people should feel herded into a specific coalition because it's the "PKers group", or the "politics" group. These groups should be as interesting and flavorful as guild identities are now.
As I have the most experience with Hallifax by far, most of my focus is going to be on ideas for Hallifax. I want to first state that I am very much against making our coalitions anything having to do with the groups of the caste system. It would be a disaster. It's part of our organization's RP that we are never, ever going to be able to escape from, and while that's fine for fluff and denizens, organizing the player population in such a way that designates important citizens as inferior just does not work. Even if the coalitions don't outright say "high caste goes here, peons elsewhere please," making an outright arts and/or sciences group, a warriors group, a bureaucrats group, etc. is very dangerous and should be avoided, because people will invariably associate them to castes, and that can of worms needs to stay firmly shut.
As for specific ideas that are firmly Hallifaxian but do their best to avoid the caste deal, hmmm. That gets tricky. I'll brainstorm a little, trying to focus on core concepts of Hallifax - culture, order, logic, beauty, harmony, etc. These are by no means meant to be taken as finished products, I'm just throwing some basic ideas out there!
The Harmonic Order: Focused on harmony and order. Be it within Hallifax or throughout the Basin, a greater harmony is always to be found, and the Harmonic Order is focused on getting there. Spread the wonders of your most efficient and lovely Beacon of Harmony to the rest of the world through peace, entertainment, and education. Seek inner harmony so that you, yourself, might be a source of it for others. Do the world a favor by actively stamping out those who would incite chaos.
Aspirants of Higher Purpose: Focused on beauty and the higher emotions. What does it mean to be beautiful? Art is the easiest (and most basic) place to look for an answer, but there are those who find beauty in self-control, and in moments of discovery. Control your lower emotions and become a beautiful beacon of perfection. Discover incredible new things that will bring success and progress. Eliminate the unsightly blemishes that exist in the world with great prejudice. Sure, throw a fancy ball in the Opera House where everyone dresses their best and fake-laughs over gossip, we love that kind of thing.
The Pragmatic Institute: Focused on efficiency and logic. Every action is undertaken with thought and purpose, and a more effective means to an end is always sought. More interested in measurable progress than subjective concepts, you're the sort to measure a play's success by its impact on the city's culture score, as opposed to if you liked it or not. Home to brilliant military strategists, sharp-witted scientists, calculating merchants, and more.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Oh I really like that. It's inclusive and fun and panders to all kinds of playing styles. +1.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
This thread grew fast over night and I'm too lazy to read all of it but am offering some of my own thoughts, even if they are a broken record -
Firstly, I identify more with my guild than my org. That is to say, I'm more likely to say 'I'm an Aeromancer' before I would say "I'm a Hallifaxfian". This ties in with the inner-secrets of a guild that they don't even share with other members of the same org that I talked about on the start of the thread. I believe there would have to be some way to limit these secrets so they just don't get completely outted by someone who decided they would be X and check out said secrets.
Secondly, and I realized this is a minority by far, but I enjoy the small guild/city/order feel. That there may be one or two other members only around at any given time. But I have always played the game differently in that view point and realize it is probably not the best if the goal is to gain/keep new players.
Using Hallifax has the example again, I always liked the idea of caste system and that some people were 'better' than others. No matter what you do, the values are going to come out and one of those values is person A is going to be better than person B because X.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited December 2015
For the record, an official caste system has been field tested and it failed spectacularly. Hallifax took a long time to recover from it, too.
edit: mostly because caste systems just become ways for players to spite other players. In Hallifax's case, the non combatants used it to spite PKers, and then promptly never won anything and looked really stupid for their decision.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
For the record, an official caste system has been field tested and it failed spectacularly. Hallifax took a long time to recover from it, too.
edit: mostly because caste systems just become ways for players to spite other players. In Hallifax's case, the non combatants used it to spite PKers, and then promptly never won anything and looked really stupid for their decision.
I know this is an old horse and it's beat stone dead, but I know speaking for myself I worked to divorce caste from cityfavors while CL in Hallifax, and succeeded in fall of 2010. It was complicated for several reasons, mostly due to the patron at the time being very set on the existing set of caste articles, which were not player-made, but rather instigated by Cririk Adom. So the cards were stacked against us making that change swiftly, and despite having CLs prior to me who were combatants (such as Incabulos), the fact that the caste articles were set down by Cririk made it difficult to change the laws without our actions being interpreted by the patron as dismantling the roleplay set-up that Hallifax had been given by its founding NPC. The Assembly of Peers was born out of a compromise with the patron at the time that gave a place where the 'scientists and artists' could still be rewarded for their contributions without limiting non-artsy/scholarly players from advancing to CR6.
As someone who played during that time period, and was in camp 'RP,' I don't believe RPers actually enjoyed stomping down combatants, or actively tried to. It was frustrating for both sides because the city was created with that imbalance on day 1, which brewed resentment. It broke my heart when Geb left.
Anyway that's all off-topic. I just wanted to add that.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
For the record, an official caste system has been field tested and it failed spectacularly. Hallifax took a long time to recover from it, too.
edit: mostly because caste systems just become ways for players to spite other players. In Hallifax's case, the non combatants used it to spite PKers, and then promptly never won anything and looked really stupid for their decision.
I was around for that. One of my fondest memories is Elo yelling at Rika for favouring someone so they could get cr2, and win Hallifax its first village, instead of a scholar.
I know I'm different in that I don't mind really not having villages or whatever. but I understand that not everyone thinks like this.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
There were more than a few that I can name that delighted in it, and paraded it around on the forums at the time. Though I didn't know it was put in place by Cririk or that there were active CLs trying to dismantle it. That's good to hear, glad Halli recovered from it
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Yeah. I know Rika hated the caste articles, and she was the first CL in Hallifax.
I sometimes favored PK people randomly as CL just because I realized there was that discrepancy and I wanted to do something about it. Things like 'for always protecting the Collective' or whatever, which I'd never get away with now in today's Halli. I mean it was a bit too little too late, but I know I for one was really distressed by the outright anger that existed between the two camps. People would blow up on CT (hi Talkan!) because Halli's population was so RP-focused that most players didn't understand combat. So it was further compounded by the fact that PKers were few in Hallifax, were shouldering a huge load due to that, and were tired of being treated as lesser for it. Even after the caste articles were fixed, it was an uphill battle to get combatants willing to come to Hallifax and stay there because our reputation towards combatants was so crap. A big thank you goes to @Prav and to @Morbo for bringing in a surge of militaristic power in when they joined Lusternia, and to @Shedrin for coming back and staying. I hope we've improved at showing our appreciation for all types of players in Hallifax as an org; coming back after a few years to see such a diverse group of people thriving there has been really heartening.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
im still sticking with Engineseers for Magnagora, just because I want that word to become an official term.
I think "Engineseer" is a Warhammer 40K term exclusively. I do know their legal department has gone after the author of an ebook who used the term "Space Marine" (which Games Workshop ripped off Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers) in the title and text if her ebook. They would sue Lusternia LLC in a hot second. GW did eventually back down but not without public pressure.
Found it: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/02/trademark-bully-thwarted-spots-space-marine-back-online
Edit2: goddamn it, I forget Heinlein was the author then I mispell his Glorious and Sanctified name. I need a drink.
Comments
The trickiest is the third. It needs to be able to mesh with both of the others, so Wyrden Supremacy is out; all in Glomdoring are supposed to support the Wyrd, so putting it in one faction kind of takes it away from the others. All need to have aspects of the Wyrd baked in. I would suggest something self-focused (both of the others are influencing outside external forces). Something where, in essence, you preach internalizing the Wyrd to enhance yourself while the other coalitions stamp it permanently into the world around us. The Cult of the Wyrdling or something (there is nothing in Glomdoring that reflects this ideology any more powerfully than the Wyrdling itself).
Edit: Note, any name I give EVER is subject to revision, I do not do well at naming. The important part is the concept, anyways.
Glomzerkers
Coalitions don't really even have to be about some hard core philosophy like Night and Crow. Could be as simple as the Bloodsport Regime for Glomdoring (just an example name, don't necessarily use it). In other words, a coalition could still resonate with Glomdoring but yet not have a hardcore philosophy as not everyone wants to be fanatical in that way. In fact, a 'neutral' (for lack of a better word) coalition could be the pivot vote that decides disagreements between the Night and Crow coalitions (not that would ever happen!). Night and Crow might consider Bloodsport as the rabble but know they need to be swayed to their side to pass any of their agenda.
I would suggest something along the lines of the Church of Nil, the Machine Cult, and the Lich Lords for Magnagora. Covers demon worship, steampunky industrial techno-magic, and 'undeath is power'. Or maybe Church of the Taint instead of Church of Nil? Though everyone in Mag is supposed to like the Taint, so maybe it shouldn't have a faction more tied to it than others.
The Covenant of Remembrance
New Celest is defined by the fall of the Celestine Empire and by the catastrophe which resulted from Project Cosmic Hope. The Covenant of Remembrance vows to remember the sins of Old Celest and to learn from them. The Covenant argues that New Celest must occupy and hold all territory once governed by Old Celest and further that the great works of High Magic created by the Empire must be secured against any further tampering. That which cannot be made safe must regretably be destroyed. Only once this is done can New Celest become worthy of Her former glory and only then can the healing of the Basin begin again.
The Crucible of Purity
Inspired by the Tahtetso teachings of Lumosis and the ascension of the Saints and the Archons, the Crucible of Purity seeks to create a crusading army that is one with the Light and proof against all corruption. Just as Methrenton the Crusader forges angelic weapons on Celestia to use against evil, so too does the Crucible seek to forge their own souls into weapons against the Taint. To do so, the monks of the Crucible live ascetic lives filled with endless physical training, unwavering religious conviction and perfect spiritual discipline. Anything sort of this is little more than frivolity in the face of the ongoing threats to New Celest's existence.
We had batted around 2 coalitions per org with possible new faction later but there were concerns that it would be too stratified and three coalitions would be more dynamic.
Firstly, I identify more with my guild than my org. That is to say, I'm more likely to say 'I'm an Aeromancer' before I would say "I'm a Hallifaxfian". This ties in with the inner-secrets of a guild that they don't even share with other members of the same org that I talked about on the start of the thread. I believe there would have to be some way to limit these secrets so they just don't get completely outted by someone who decided they would be X and check out said secrets.
Secondly, and I realized this is a minority by far, but I enjoy the small guild/city/order feel. That there may be one or two other members only around at any given time. But I have always played the game differently in that view point and realize it is probably not the best if the goal is to gain/keep new players.
Using Hallifax has the example again, I always liked the idea of caste system and that some people were 'better' than others. No matter what you do, the values are going to come out and one of those values is person A is going to be better than person B because X.
I know I'm different in that I don't mind really not having villages or whatever. but I understand that not everyone thinks like this.
I think "Engineseer" is a Warhammer 40K term exclusively. I do know their legal department has gone after the author of an ebook who used the term "Space Marine" (which Games Workshop ripped off Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers) in the title and text if her ebook. They would sue Lusternia LLC in a hot second. GW did eventually back down but not without public pressure. Found it: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/02/trademark-bully-thwarted-spots-space-marine-back-online Edit2: goddamn it, I forget Heinlein was the author then I mispell his Glorious and Sanctified name. I need a drink.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."