Guild Overhaul

1235717

Comments

  • Talan said:
    Honestly I'd keep it skill-based as I think that newbie-skill-support is another important feature of the existing guilds. I've played this game for ages, and I still wouldn't be able to competently help a newbie-monk.

    So maybe guardians/witches + warriors, mages/druids + bards, and monks by themselves (no offense, but their lore tends to be the odd man out.)

    I pair these because of skill overlap and the classes' function within an org. mages/druids/bards tend to take on a more overall 'stewardship' role, while the guardian/witches/warriors tend to focus on the specific landmark features (spirits/supernals).

    Alternately, the monk guild could accept members from any other class, but the predominant RP would feature the illithoid/kephera/bull/scorpion themes as they tie into the main org rp.
    The other side of this is that mechanically, monks/warriors have more in common than guardian/druids. So a faction focused that way would have to put in a bit more work I think to get newer people familiar with combat. Conversely at least from a Celest stand point, I think the Tahtetso and the Paladins have more in common than the Celestines and the Paladins. A lot of this actually comes from org RP. Again speaking from Celest stand point, but I've noticeds Cantors/Celestines tend to have similar RP styles, as do Tahtetso/Paladins. Aquamancers tend to be a little bit off on their own, never really been sure why. Creating factions that also tie promote people mechanically tending towards similar factions might be a good payoff down the line.

    Also a question: how would guild credits work? The people providing (most) of the income for the game are combatants usually. Combatants are (likely) going to end up clumping in one or two factions, giving them a higher percentage of guild/faction credits. So... some guilds will be better able to reward their players than others? I mean I know that's very similar to how things are now, but I think it's outweighed by people being mechanically forced into a guild (generally) that aligns to their class and the credits getting distributed evenly that way
  • IMO such a change is only going to split the lusternia community and I don't think it will solve the problem you are aiming to solve. I feel this takes more than it gives and what it gives us not that different from what already exists. For what it is worth, my opinion is to finish the epic task that is underway which is the skill overhaul. Let everyone adapt and love that. Then consider a strategy to implement the game population issue ( this is the real problem not guilds). This strategy may involve a guild overhaul but make sure the strategy focuses on the real issue not just a way to feel more comfortable with lower numbers.

    image

    06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!

  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    What happens if one faction is overwhelmingly popular and others are comparatively barren? Won't we run into similar problems?
  • edited December 2015
    I have very mixed feelings here. I have sunk a lot of time and effort into loving the Symphonium and trying to tie it into history and lore and my gut reaction is "No!" However, I recognise that the time I've spent on the Symphonium wouldn't be possible without the admin who set it up, or worked on it with me, so this wouldn't be proposed if you didn't care, and that, despite all the personal effort I feel like I've put in, the Symphonium has remained a worryingly small guild.

    I think it could be really interesting to try and distill each org into factions rply, and find ways to incorporate the current guilds into that. I appreciate that Hallifax's example was likely largely spitballing, but I'm going to ramble about that anyway in order to try to get my head around the concept of what we might be doing/try some ideas on for size.

    I agree with @Talan that tying the factions to stratified castes is a bad idea. Very few people in Hallifax actively embrace the bureaucratic caste rply. Some of the ones that do, of course, tend to be fairly active and visibile, but I think that's also something they'll be able to do post-factions by engaging in the Ministries, etc. I think it makes more sense to split the artists and scientists up a bit: The Institutional Society of Hallifax for the Improvement of Temporal and Aeromantic Knowledge, The Hallifaxian Centre for the Arts (with an Opera House subdivision, a College of Design, and a gallery), and then some third faction, either based on the Skylark Company or focused on Harmony/the Collective as a whole.

    The reason I'm suggesting this is because I honestly think it fits the population we currently have. A lot of people come to Hallifax for the science or art arpee, and I think putting all of those people in one faction would leave the other two factions seriously undersized, as well as cutting out some fun opportunities for arts vs sciences. I know there are people that go for both arts and sciences together, but even so they (usually) tend to favour one significantly. I also think this allows some flexibility within the factions to include multiple strata of castes.

    The Skylark Company is interesting. I could see them either being their own thing, or being explicitly folded into the Institute as it's policing arm. Of course, the Sentinels has had as much trouble as the Symphonium, if not more, in terms of size and attracting populations so basing an entire faction around their rp concept may be problematic.

    Okay, I can see this working, and I can see myself getting excited about this, should this be a direction we choose to go. Maybe it helps that Hallifax only has one more guild than it would faction.

    Regarding playerheld positions, doing justice to being on the city council while also trying to oversee the inner workings of the guild is hard. I also think that some people are better at one than the other, and that making there be only one highest ranking faction position has some risks/built-in disappointments because while our population may not be able to handle the 12-15 active GL positions per org, cutting that down to 3 is going to mean that a lot of people who are used to being guildleaders suddenly won't be. (Also can I just say that I would LOVE the idea of being able to customise some of the guild leadership positions a little.)
  • Yay @Maylea ^_^. 

    I really think a Spirit faction in Serenwilde would really be amazing, for me the ritualist aspect to the forest can feel a bit divided among the varying guilds when we really should be celebrating their unity. Calling on the White Hart and Mother Moon together, rambling on about the various teachings of all of the spirits and how they combine and intersect, potentially even elevating it to the awen concept that has been floating around. Concentrating our religious aspects into a unified tribe, and maybe I'll have an excuse to yell at Bull :D (I'm not a shofangi but I have some ideas about him)

    Yeah, have been trying to figure out how to put it into words but it would be super awesome and I'd end up there. ^_^
  • I'd love to see different concepts of Factions between what Cities think are factions, and what communes think are factions.
  • Rivius said:
    What happens if one faction is overwhelmingly popular and others are comparatively barren? Won't we run into similar problems?
    The first thing that comes to mind honestly... guild can never be deleted under the current system, a faction well... could. 

    As an example, if a remembering faction in Serenwilde doesn't work out (even though it should) and the members of the faction have given up on it, then the players might be given the option to radically reinvent the faction with the admin, to find some other aspect of the commune to explore. It could be a slight tweak or a new faction could spring up from the ashes, if the Spirit faction is overloading and not really fully exploring everything, maybe they could offer responsibility for certain spirits to the other guild.

    The story of a faction can grow and it can end, it can evolve outside of their initial bounds or refine them. Guilds are limited in this respect as they need to relate back to the class they offer, I suppose as an example, the relationship between Bull and the Shofangi... well it's less problematic if a faction who follows Bull decides to reject him, because another faction can just take on that duty and if that means that the first faction is better off then that's good.
  • And if people really think that a faction isnt for them and one would work better, could always introduce the High Clan concept from Achaea and others.


    If enough people are interested (a good amount mind you), could always become a new faction.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    If we're feeling that deleting guilds isn't far enough, I'm down with deleting orgs.  While a lot of my RP has centered around the "shadows/wyrd/wyrden ideals/etc" stuff, I'm always willing to update my character and explore new places to take him.  It'd suck to lose VA, but if that's the cost for trying to reduce the spread of players through the game, so be it.
    image
  • Tarkenton said:
    If we're feeling that deleting guilds isn't far enough, I'm down with deleting orgs.  While a lot of my RP has centered around the "shadows/wyrd/wyrden ideals/etc" stuff, I'm always willing to update my character and explore new places to take him.  It'd suck to lose VA, but if that's the cost for trying to reduce the spread of players through the game, so be it.

    ... My mind immediately thought of either Serenwilde or Glomdoring "winning" and the winner combining the forests into one org with some skill mods.

    The Raven druids of Gloriana
    The Dark Moon coven of Wyrdenwilde... Serenwyrd? 
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    edited December 2015
    Maybe it's just me, but I don't think PK/scholar/whatever-the-third-option-is  factions are a terrible idea. You're just organizing players based on what inspires them to continue playing. Perhaps not "DEATH AND MURDER FACTION," or something quite so literal, but drawing a degree of inspiration from playing styles so that players are reorganizing themselves based on the things they enjoy is not a terrible idea. 

    A degree of it is unavoidable, I think, if this goes through. PKers will naturally gravitate towards the more aggressive/outward thinking of the factions, for example. 

    I'm not a big fan of reinventing the wheel, if it works, let it work. I think there is a strong argument about looking how players already organize themselves and following that example. Obviously, this will have limitations, some PKers like to RP and write, and vice versa, but traditionally, players find their niches and they stick to them. 

    I also like streamlined, and one thing I hate about current guilds is that they require multiple advancement routes. Oh you like writing, you're in the Umbral Shadows and Shadowy Sekrets sect, so you need to join this clan and these help files for your tasks, but not those help files. Generally, in my experience, there is exceedingly little crossover. The PKers take their "path," the writers take theirs, etc etc. 

    I would also support the idea of some flexibility in guild leadership styles. It's something I wished guilds always allowed. We saw it manifest through RP, the Shadowdancers being an autocracy and the Harbingers being a triumvirate of equal influence, and it was by player choice. Would be cool to see that manifest in mechanics. 
    image
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Honestly, I don't know how anyone can seriously sit here and say that only having 3 factions won't have a better chance of not being barren than 5 guilds. It's a simply numbers game, spreading a org population through 3 distinct factions will be easier than spreading it through 5 guilds. 

    Will it solve every problem? No, but it's a start. I think people can agree that this problem is simply more than just 'too many orgs/guilds.' I don't think anyone can really disagree (with a modicum of honesty) and say that 3 factions is going to be the same issue to populate that 5 guilds are. Covenants were always just a halfass band-aid solution that didn't actually go far enough to make a difference, and if it did go any farther, then we'd be right where we are now with factions. Gotta start somewhere, so why not here?

    I also think people are getting caught up in the details. Being that this is an opening proposal, the details can be hammered out later, but the big picture is to see what this could be rather than what it isn't. What it isn't can be addressed once the big items are settled on.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • PortiusPortius Likes big books, cannot lie
    edited December 2015
    Cogitation on factions: If you're keeping the collegium, is there any reason to force players to pick a faction right when they start? Sees like it might be better to let them start factionless and join up with later when they figure out which one has the people and fluff that they like.

    On Hallifactions, because working through what types of factions interest people is probably useful:

    Hallifax has a lot of Downton Abbey type RP going on. Balls, gossip, that sort of thing. This is mostly concentrated among the artsy people, both in terms of players who do it and the NPCs who resemble it. That's fine, but it often gets pretty overwhelmingly dominant for those of us (me!) who find it really tedious. I am assuming that a highest caste faction will be dominated by that, because that's what most highest caste players do now. I would rather not have the people who do not want to do that type of thing get stuck in a faction that is centered on it if they want to be highest caste people in the highest caste faction.

    Instead, I would rather base Hallifactions on politics. Their stance on outsiders, specifically. That captures one of the big divisions in Hallifaxian culture without breaking the players up by their preferred activities. Three factions:

    The Assimilationist Party: Hallifax is the best. Everybody knows that. It's a simple fact. Everyone else needs to join us so we can raise them up to our level. We can absorb their useful technologies, and together we can all build a better world. Of course, we might need to reeducate some people. Maybe kill the really stubborn ones. But every culture has something to offer, so we should absorb the ones that we can.

    The Supremacist Party: Hallifax is the best. Everybody knows that. It's a simple fact. Those inferior cultures need to be destroyed before they can spread. There might be some individuals here and there that we can salvage and assimilate. There are some technologies that are worth stealing. But the culture that goes with them? Those cultures can only be allowed to survive in museums. Forestal fae worshipping will keep people living as primitives. The churches of Celestia and Nil demand blind faith, which is the death of reason. Gaudiguchi solipism turns otherwise brilliant minds away from productive activities. They are corrupting ideas.

    The Isolationist Party: Hallifax is the best. Everybody knows that. It's a simple fact. Other places exist. That's also a fact. For better or for worse, we occasionally have to deal with them. Use peace or use war. It doesn't matter. Just do what's best for us, and don't get tied up in entangling alliances. It's not that we need to raise the foreigners to our level or that we need to destroy them. They just don't matter. If they're dangerous, eliminate them. If they're useful, use them. Preserve the city until we have such a massive technological and economic advantage that we can just declare victory and ignore the rest of the world. After all, we're Hallifax. We're a flying city. The rest of the world doesn't have to be our problem.



    EDIT: RE: Estarra on renaming factions. Different name for different orgs, to match the fluff chosen for each. Hallifax examples. If you want by caste, call them castes. If you go by politics, call them parties.
    Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
  • @Estarra

    Call the system the "Factions System", but let players decide what they want their orgs' "factions" to be called. Hallifax can call them "Parties", Serenwilde can call them "Cults", whatever.

  • SylandraSylandra Join Queue for Mafia Games The Last Mafia Game
    Lerad said:
    @Estarra

    Call the system the "Factions System", but let players decide what they want their orgs' "factions" to be called. Hallifax can call them "Parties", Serenwilde can call them "Cults", whatever.

    I love that idea. I feel each org would have a different mindset behind its factions too, so that helps emphasize that.
    Daraius said:
    "Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
  • Celina said:
    Can Gaudi's factions be based on what kind of drunk they are? Angry drunks, happy drunks, emotional mess drunks.
    Wouldn't that mean the "horny drunk" faction would become the largest?
    image
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Estarra said:


    Oh, does ANYONE have an alternate suggestion to call them something other than factions!?





    Stolen from someone in page 2-3:

    Hallif: company
    Seren: tribe
    Glom: cabal
    Gaudi: sect
    Celest: don't know much enough about Celest, but they seem like they would love a good council
    Mag: same, but they seem like a syndicate kind of city

    If @Estarra insists on a broader term, then maybe alliance, coalition, union, I personally like fellowship.

    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Ssaliss said:
    Celina said:
    Can Gaudi's factions be based on what kind of drunk they are? Angry drunks, happy drunks, emotional mess drunks.
    Wouldn't that mean the "horny drunk" faction would become the largest?
    No, that's just Gaudiguch.
    image
  • Estarra said:
    Just some random thoughts catching up on the discussion.

    Re quests for skills, I'm not terribly confident that this is a good idea. Nothing is more frustrating to a newbie trying to get into the game than hurdles to get your skills. Cavaliers are different insofar that we specifically don't want newbies to take that skillset because of the requirement (and understanding) of mounts, so a quest made sense there.

    For clarity, my suggestion for quests wasn't really aimed at newbies, it was more for people who have got a class and want to start exploring a second.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Subotai for leader of the Horny Drunk Sect, Celina can be my second in command.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • Well for mechanical reasons, there needs to be a generic catchall name. Was hoping for a word! What about "clique"? Maybe has negative connotations? How about "society"? Hrm, okay, if no one is going to play along with me, I'll call them societies!

    If you're brainstorming societies, another thing to keep in mind, again for mechanical reason, is there needs to be a one word alias that will be seen quite a bit in-game (through code), so while the Infernal Temple of Demonic Abstractions sounds cool, it would probably be seen as simply the Temple (or whatever).

    BTW, if you were designing societies for your own org, what three would you come up with? Let's hear some suggestions which may perhaps give others a better idea of possible directions!
    image
    image
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink
    edited December 2015
    Wrong thread, ignore

  • SylandraSylandra Join Queue for Mafia Games The Last Mafia Game
    edited December 2015
    I like the broad concept behind Portius's three Halli factions actually. Culture, military, science. It's easy to see how Hallifax would split up into those iconic groups with its current population. As a 'Downton Abbey' rper it'd be fun to be in a society of likeminded people who enjoy the same aspect of Hallifax that I do.
    Daraius said:
    "Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    edited December 2015
    Coalitions? I like coalitions. 

    also: Gaudi can be Angries, Happies, and Sobbies.
    image
  • Oooo, I like coalitions!
    image
    image
  • A rose by any other name. I still see these 'factions' as warrior, guardian, and mage guilds. No matter how you spin it that is really what we are proposing to reducing them to.

    I -can- see some differences in the way that there is more freedom skillset wise, but that could be implemented with the current setup anyway. In any event. KISS - Keep it simple stupid.
Sign In or Register to comment.