Again, the factions are going to be based on the roleplay values of the organization. I based my example on the current Caste System in Hallifax with the "Highest Caste" of Artists and Scholars having a faction, the middle castes splitting into two factions, one for "defenders" and one for "merchants/bureaucrats/support roles". Maybe it was a mistake to add the conjecture about what type of players I thought might be attracted to those factions but that is not how we plan to design those factions, nor are we trying to force people into roles based on faction other than grouping like-minded players together by something other than what class they picked at character generation.
On the flip side, I think most of the ideas I have heard suggested so far are naturally going to draw some types of players more than others. Given the choice of the Church of Nil or the ur'Guard, I think combat oriented players, in general, will be drawn to the ur'Guard. Coven of the Night or the Wyrden Supremacy? Seems like Wyrden Supremacy would be a bigger draw for combatants. The factions should be designed around the existing ideals of the organization they are part of, but every org has at least some roleplay aspect that is going to draw certain types of players. I think the admin are better off recognizing that, hey this group might be more drawn to this type of thing so we should encourage them to connect with the other groups to share that with them, so we can encourage a healthy roleplay environment rather than ignoring things that seem very likely to happen.
I think guild artifacts should be deleted, or at least made to be no longer a combat equipment (existing somewhere as an NPC instead). Important guild artifact abilities, like the GA one, should become a guild power, maybe tied to Secretaries or something.
Church of Nil was based on the fact Caco skils are Demon Lord related, as were Nihilists, but Ur'Guard also have a tie. Church was to imply those who prefer a church or culture following while Ur'Guard was more a militant branch. I would expect, not necessarily combat, but a military style of progression and advancement. I want to be a Dread General!
Goal is keep the RP, but group people together more while focusing on some aspect of the city. This is not "combat of city" "RP of city" but this will vary with org.
I would happily be the devil's advocate and say we could blow up an org (Halli and Celest are very similar, and Glomdoring is super empty and was almost cut off before).
(Note that guild artys for champs are a mistake as is. Giving mechanical advantage to people already skilled at combat is biased, and guardian pets are LEAPS above the other champ artys)
Again, the factions are going to be based on the roleplay values of the organization. I based my example on the current Caste System in Hallifax with the "Highest Caste" of Artists and Scholars having a faction, the middle castes splitting into two factions, one for "defenders" and one for "merchants/bureaucrats/support roles". Maybe it was a mistake to add the conjecture about what type of players I thought might be attracted to those factions but that is not how we plan to design those factions, nor are we trying to force people into roles based on faction other than grouping like-minded players together by something other than what class they picked at character generation.
On the flip side, I think most of the ideas I have heard suggested so far are naturally going to draw some types of players more than others. Given the choice of the Church of Nil or the ur'Guard, I think combat oriented players, in general, will be drawn to the ur'Guard. Coven of the Night or the Wyrden Supremacy? Seems like Wyrden Supremacy would be a bigger draw for combatants. The factions should be designed around the existing ideals of the organization they are part of, but every org has at least some roleplay aspect that is going to draw certain types of players. I think the admin are better off recognizing that, hey this group might be more drawn to this type of thing so we should encourage them to connect with the other groups to share that with them, so we can encourage a healthy roleplay environment rather than ignoring things that seem very likely to happen.
It doesn't seem like a good idea to base these factions around an implicit hierarchy, such as the Caste System, which has already failed a field test.
It also doesn't seem like a good idea to funnel all of an org's fighters into 1 faction within an org.
I'm not trying to be argumentative just for the sake of it. Guilds work well because all guilds are equal to each other within an org. That won't be the case with these factions if they are based around the type of players that are encouraged to join. Tying player archetypes directly to org politics seems flawed in a variety of ways. I'm sorry.
It doesn't seem like a good idea to base these factions around an implicit hierarchy, such as the Caste System, which has already failed a field test.
It also doesn't seem like a good idea to funnel all of an org's fighters into 1 faction within an org.
I'm not trying to be argumentative just for the sake of it. Guilds work well because all guilds are equal to each other within an org. That won't be the case with these factions if they are based around the type of players that are encouraged to join. Tying player archetypes directly to org politics seems flawed in a variety of ways. I'm sorry.
Can't say much about the caste thing. But I think in the other posts, it's been said that the intention is NOT to make one faction for fighters, another for RPers, another for... whatever. Zvoltz is arguing that, inevitably some types of players might be drawn to particular factions, but they are not going to be structured that way. Sort of how in the pre-Serenguard days of yore, warriors who lived in the Serenwilde belonged to either the Moon Coven or the Hartstone.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Taking Hallifax's proposed groups as an example, I don't particularly think that "All of the fighters will join the Skylark Company" is going to be much of an issue, since each of the groups appeals to a different kind of fighter. Skylark is just the most obvious with its "Meet Interesting People and Kill Them" sort of spec ops/science commando mentality. The Institute will get the PKers who want to be looked up to for their actions, or who want to go for a "warrior poet/enlightened warrior" sort of direction with their character. And the Bureau is actually perfect for the Morbo types who want to be a combat leader who values having allies who can cooperate and plan in combat more than they value having allies who are each individual lone wolf badasses.
Do you have any suggestions on the best way to prevent that? Or maybe a quick and dirty 3-faction design for an org that you feel we could use as a framework on how to make something that adheres to established org principles without biasing players to split up into PK vs RP groups?
Honestly I'd keep it skill-based as I think that newbie-skill-support is another important feature of the existing guilds. I've played this game for ages, and I still wouldn't be able to competently help a newbie-monk.
So maybe guardians/witches + warriors, mages/druids + bards, and monks by themselves (no offense, but their lore tends to be the odd man out.)
I pair these because of skill overlap and the classes' function within an org. mages/druids/bards tend to take on a more overall 'stewardship' role, while the guardian/witches/warriors tend to focus on the specific landmark features (spirits/supernals).
Alternately, the monk guild could accept members from any other class, but the predominant RP would feature the illithoid/kephera/bull/scorpion themes as they tie into the main org rp.
-Cross org classflexing can go away if it'll make this transition easier, don't be selfish. If anything, the faster factions get in, the more likelihood that halli/gaudi monks will come because now we don't need to create entire guilds for them.
-Ieptix has clearly and succinctly explained my feelings on guilds without seeming like a total jerk about it.
-Factions are fluid as a concept. Each one will attract a certain group of people who agree that with its particular flavor. I don't think it's particularly fair to ban people from joining faction x because they want to pk but faction x already has all the pkers, for example.
-Further, when it comes to org politics, faction x will still own only 1 seat. There are all equally weighted, literally. If an entire org has let 1 faction run it either by RP or by sheer number, then by extension, the majority agree with that faction's way of doing things.
-If the issue is with help files, those can be shared between factions.
I think it would be an org by org basis on pairings if w combine class and lore. With Mag and Celest bard + guardian would mesh better while Spiritsinger + hart stone in Seren, Minstrels + Pyro in Gville and Symphonium by itself in H makes more sense
There's at least one skillset that requires questing in order to acquire- that of the cavalier. Why shouldn't there be something similar in-org for taking on an archetype after you've left being a newbie behind?
Because you at least need a partial familiarity with your skills before taking Cavalier: Barring a bit of metagaming, the quest itself requires hunting, purchase of a beast, and some lessons in Planar to gain essence. What would you suggest a quest require you to do before you learn to Cast Blast as a novice mage, or hit someone with a sword as a warrior?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Remember, the ambassador ministry will take over the 'teaching' role, appoint professors from the various classes (or do we still call it 'archetype'?) and hopefully some people like me who have played every class a little and know the basics pretty well.
There's at least one skillset that requires questing in order to acquire- that of the cavalier. Why shouldn't there be something similar in-org for taking on an archetype after you've left being a newbie behind?
Because you at least need a partial familiarity with your skills before taking Cavalier: Barring a bit of metagaming, the quest itself requires hunting, purchase of a beast, and some lessons in Planar to gain essence. What would you suggest a quest require you to do before you learn to Cast Blast as a novice mage, or hit someone with a sword as a warrior?
But you wouldn't be blasting. The equivalent would be gaining your guild specialization skill. Hey you know music but this is what xyz bard spec is about ?
Honestly I'd keep it skill-based as I think that newbie-skill-support is another important feature of the existing guilds. I've played this game for ages, and I still wouldn't be able to competently help a newbie-monk.
So maybe guardians/witches + warriors, mages/druids + bards, and monks by themselves (no offense, but their lore tends to be the odd man out.)
I pair these because of skill overlap and the classes' function within an org. mages/druids/bards tend to take on a more overall 'stewardship' role, while the guardian/witches/warriors tend to focus on the specific landmark features (spirits/supernals).
Alternately, the monk guild could accept members from any other class, but the predominant RP would feature the illithoid/kephera/bull/scorpion themes as they tie into the main org rp.
I think that the assistance of newbies could be handled through expansion of the collegiums and that this would better assist them. Sure not everyone in the collegium might be able to help them, but if that's where they go for help then they can get help from everyone that might be able to help them.
As @Annick has mentioned, simple pairings across the board don't really work out . Like, I thought part of the Sentinels rp was that they also kept an eye on the Institute to keep the city safe from temporal stuff gone really wrong. They seem like they'd be less effective at that if they were incorporated into the institute but it's something that could be incorporated into the factions @Zvoltz mentioned. Another example I guess is that if you combined the Moondancers and Serenguard, well you'd have a guild mostly dedicated to Mother Moon that also teaches people how to commune with Stag and it feels weird with what I've heard about the Serenguard.
Of course, as always, ever since @Estarra mentioned the missing archetype in that youtube video, if we divorce factions from skills, we also remove the limitations on development that guilds currently represent. Currently that's splitting the population, in a merged system that archetype would need to be slotted into an existing guild. If class is separate then whatever turns up can be whatever the admin want it to be without impacting the factions.
And now I'm just imagining if we got it and it was based on the epic quest then each of the orgbixes could be expanded to include teachers and quests for the class. I'd be able to go to the hallway of the Ancestors and learn the ways of the dae'Seren from them ^_^. Sure it may never come out, but I really really want to see what it is so I don't care about the relevance :P.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Oh please, let's not expand the collegiums... that's already an hour and a half of the game one can never get back.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
There's at least one skillset that requires questing in order to acquire- that of the cavalier. Why shouldn't there be something similar in-org for taking on an archetype after you've left being a newbie behind?
Because you at least need a partial familiarity with your skills before taking Cavalier: Barring a bit of metagaming, the quest itself requires hunting, purchase of a beast, and some lessons in Planar to gain essence. What would you suggest a quest require you to do before you learn to Cast Blast as a novice mage, or hit someone with a sword as a warrior?
I think it would just be nice for something really basic. Like you start the game with one class (having done the stuff before you went through the portal) but then if you wanted to pick up Hartstone you'd go to the sacred grove where you get asked to hunt down a few of the easy critters in Serenwilde. Then you just play a game of simon says where the game like gives you hints for exactly what you need to say (with mxp or whatever so you can just click on it).
Then you're in the grove and you can find Dain who might give you some history and maybe treasure hunt just inside the guild hall with a bit of history in it too. Then when that's done you get a nice little cut scene where the White Hart turns up and says you're cool so you can learn his skills.
A couple of thoughts on this, which have already been echo'd some in previous comments:
I'm not sure this would help much with players spread across different guilds. We're essentially just changing it from five (or even four) to three. Players will still be spread thinly between those three. Sure, it will help some, but I don't think it's The Solution. Granted, I can't think of any good solution other than just... removing guilds completely and having everyone just be part of one official org, and having the rest become no more than glorified clans.
I'm firmly in the camp that old guild halls should remain, and perhaps even open up to the public. There's been a lot of investments into these, and a lot of individuality, so scrapping them seems a complete waste. Let the GM/GA/whoever remove the books in their libraries that they don't want seen by anyone and put them into a personal library in a manse if need be.
If we go with factions, please also incorporate an automatic advancement within them. Dead guilds are dead for a reason; they don't have people around to test newbies, which means no newbies get ranked up, which means they quit the guild, which means the guild still doesn't have anyone to test newbies. It doesn't need to be time-based, but rather "gather x of each herb" and "get x explorer ranking" and "gather x scholars/bards/pilgrims/weevils/whatever"; stuff that can be automatically checked.
Other than that, I'm very much in favour of cutting down on guilds. Yes, it'll suck to start with, but I feel we kinda have to at this point.
EDIT: Oh, thought on class flexing: I honestly can't see any good reason not to just let people choose their class completely free among all classes. Odds are a Glom picking a Seren classwould get an extremely bad reaction from the rest of Glom, plus they wouldn't be able to use any power moves at all (or at least not the ones relying on Seren power, and they'd be able to pick a Glom class with those power moves anyway. Yes, it might create some awkward situations, but that's part of roleplaying.
Oh please, let's not expand the collegiums... that's already an hour and a half of the game one can never get back.
I didn't mean like the quest side, I meant on the player controlled side. Such as players adding more help files so they go into more detail giving a bit more help to those who are looking for it (maybe a tag so that only graduates can see them if clutter for newbies is a concern), changing the culture so that people are directed to the collegium aether for help with class stuff.
Oh please, let's not expand the collegiums... that's already an hour and a half of the game one can never get back.
An hour and a half?
You don't alt much, do you
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Honestly I'd keep it skill-based as I think that newbie-skill-support is another important feature of the existing guilds. I've played this game for ages, and I still wouldn't be able to competently help a newbie-monk.
So maybe guardians/witches + warriors, mages/druids + bards, and monks by themselves (no offense, but their lore tends to be the odd man out.)
I pair these because of skill overlap and the classes' function within an org. mages/druids/bards tend to take on a more overall 'stewardship' role, while the guardian/witches/warriors tend to focus on the specific landmark features (spirits/supernals).
Alternately, the monk guild could accept members from any other class, but the predominant RP would feature the illithoid/kephera/bull/scorpion themes as they tie into the main org rp.
2 guilds, 2 guilds, 1 guild....... this is the covenant system we already have. So I think we need to adjust this.
Give each faction the ability to take 3 classes, with each class being required in an org. So you could have (using mag) - Ur'Guard, Ninjakari, Nihilists
- Nihilists, Cacophony, Geomancers
- Ur'Gurad, Nihilists, Geomancers
They could potentially change a faction choice later, maybe caco nihilists decide they prefer to support Ninja over geo. wil
I will also repeat we could pop an org or two. Additionally removing a class would make it 4 guilds which could be done equally in 2 factions.
Honestly, the split will appeal to player taste. Of the ones listed for Hallifax I would rather do a college of war (in Science and Arts) than go to Skylark. There should not be a "combat" faction, specially since everyone will be together anyway in city level till. The trick is encouraging each faction uniquely, though I would LOVE to see something minor guildy like Great Clans or whatever it was mentioned, so Nihilists could get a super clan and do their ritual stuff there.
Also, as to monks and their RP. Ignore it, ignore all of it. Nekotai had the only real RP, and that was removed by admin. There is no real tying features at the moment, and each monk guild could use a lore overhaul. Keep in mind the monks have the Roark touch on them, and therefore may have been intended as a "self as an idol" to support personal growth. @Roark Truth to this? Not sure who designed monks, but they seemed kind of slopped on as they were not tied to org RP.
I really like the idea of this faction approach, but as many have said, it's only natural for Bartle's Player Archetypes to flock to those of similar interests.
It's not necessarily bad for like-minded people to flock to one section of an organization. It might even be extremely beneficial for newbie retention if it's done the right way.
PVPers (Killers) will naturally, as they already have, flock together whether it be in a canon organization or through clans.
Achievers (bashers, grinders, endless fonts of gold) will naturally do their own thing and try to have the most of whatever it is they deem valuable.
Socializers will, without any surprise, find other people to socialize with. They will chatter and talk and create a lush roleplaying environment that could potentially be welcoming to players both seasoned and new.
Explorers will dig into the lore, the environment, work out various hidden mechanics and so-on, and either spread or trade this information.
No one player will perform one role exclusively, because we're dynamic and fickle creatures, and everything from mood to what we ate for breakfast can change what we'll do. To those complaining about cliques; those already exist. They are extremely prevalent in Lusternia, and anyone who says otherwise is either joking or extremely naive. My only valid suggestion is that there needs to be a way to make each faction equal in power. The killers should not be able to overpower and rule the socializers, and so on. On that same note, cliques should have diminished power. Solidarity is useful in a MUD, but it can also be toxic when the echo chamber becomes too narrow-minded. There are far too many instances of new or unpopular players being ostracized for reasons ranging from the moderately reasonable to the absolutely absurd.
As far as the guild RP goes, that can change. Lusternia has undergone many paradigm shifts over the years (Snuggly forest into murdery winter forest anyone?), and we've done just fine. It will just take a little extra effort on everyone's part, not just the admins, to make it work.
Advancement for newbies and novices still needs to be managed by active, caring and informed players. It's extremely easy to go wrong with automated advancement systems. Maybe some sort of incentive for experienced players to help newbies would be warranted, but nothing too valuable or someone will exploit the system.
Perhaps some incentive for players to take an active role in dwindling factions would be warranted, too. If all of the players are in one faction, the other two would feel miserable. Maybe some juicy Divine RP? A few emotes from an idolized being goes a long way toward steering player/character behavior. Could go more literal and give funding incentives like gold and resources, but those are superficial and have less of a draw.
I've honestly forgotten the point I was trying to make, but I like the faction idea. I would link to Richard Bartle's article on MUD Player Archetypes, but I'm unsure if I'm permitted to post such a thing here. Feel free to completely demolish this comment if I've done something terribly wrong.
I occasionally like to pretend that I'm replanting all of these herbs to attract bees, and might one day form an alliance with the bees and take over the Basin. Then we could have a wonderful tea party with plenty of honey and the best tea blends.
I'm not sure forcing factions into picking specific classes is the best idea. It sounds like houses in Achaea. I mean, we already have classflex. I don't know what class half the people in my guild even are anymore. So why not just let each faction have every class in the org?
I'd suggest not outright deleting the guildhalls. That could cause additional grief to the players connected to their orgs being deleted. I would suggest leaving the guildhalls and perhaps opening them up as mini-RP zones related to the classes they currently represent. Could even place quests related to each class in them.
Also, from what I observed in Achaea, I would suggest not going with the route of "Event that made the guilds get wiped out" or "Event that caused havoc and split" or some such. I would simply suggest a mini-event of perhaps evolution in city government where org mob tutors see the plausibility in combining their arts into more powerful Factors. Make sure to fully clarify that the guilds are not technically being 'deleted' since the classes, and their storylines (sup Ur'guard) will still exist, but simply this is a joining of efforts towards greater goals (other than just groupings of a class).
As for Envoys, how could we have 1 person per class if technically no one will have 1 official class anymore? People can classflex freely now (then), and our classes no longer represent each of us seperately. May simply be better to select 5 people per Org that are qualified, and not 5 people for each class.
Guess I should put on hold whatever mechanical/physical guild additions we were cooking up. :S
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
If it's done well and we can retain a lot of the lore and roleplay we managed to build up, I suppose I can try to adapt. Everiine being willing to keep working with Serenguard RP under this new system is at least a good sign for me. I think the lore of the guild and what I love about it will undeniably be watered down by this, unfortunately, but if we feel like this is the only way to save Lusternia, we can give it a try.
Comments
On the flip side, I think most of the ideas I have heard suggested so far are naturally going to draw some types of players more than others. Given the choice of the Church of Nil or the ur'Guard, I think combat oriented players, in general, will be drawn to the ur'Guard. Coven of the Night or the Wyrden Supremacy? Seems like Wyrden Supremacy would be a bigger draw for combatants. The factions should be designed around the existing ideals of the organization they are part of, but every org has at least some roleplay aspect that is going to draw certain types of players. I think the admin are better off recognizing that, hey this group might be more drawn to this type of thing so we should encourage them to connect with the other groups to share that with them, so we can encourage a healthy roleplay environment rather than ignoring things that seem very likely to happen.
It also doesn't seem like a good idea to funnel all of an org's fighters into 1 faction within an org.
I'm not trying to be argumentative just for the sake of it. Guilds work well because all guilds are equal to each other within an org. That won't be the case with these factions if they are based around the type of players that are encouraged to join. Tying player archetypes directly to org politics seems flawed in a variety of ways. I'm sorry.
Vive l'apostrophe!
Vive l'apostrophe!
Do you have any suggestions on the best way to prevent that? Or maybe a quick and dirty 3-faction design for an org that you feel we could use as a framework on how to make something that adheres to established org principles without biasing players to split up into PK vs RP groups?
So maybe guardians/witches + warriors, mages/druids + bards, and monks by themselves (no offense, but their lore tends to be the odd man out.)
I pair these because of skill overlap and the classes' function within an org. mages/druids/bards tend to take on a more overall 'stewardship' role, while the guardian/witches/warriors tend to focus on the specific landmark features (spirits/supernals).
Alternately, the monk guild could accept members from any other class, but the predominant RP would feature the illithoid/kephera/bull/scorpion themes as they tie into the main org rp.
Vive l'apostrophe!
Because you at least need a partial familiarity with your skills before taking Cavalier: Barring a bit of metagaming, the quest itself requires hunting, purchase of a beast, and some lessons in Planar to gain essence. What would you suggest a quest require you to do before you learn to Cast Blast as a novice mage, or hit someone with a sword as a warrior?
But you wouldn't be blasting. The equivalent would be gaining your guild specialization skill. Hey you know music but this is what xyz bard spec is about ?
Other than that, I'm very much in favour of cutting down on guilds. Yes, it'll suck to start with, but I feel we kinda have to at this point.
EDIT: Oh, thought on class flexing: I honestly can't see any good reason not to just let people choose their class completely free among all classes. Odds are a Glom picking a Seren classwould get an extremely bad reaction from the rest of Glom, plus they wouldn't be able to use any power moves at all (or at least not the ones relying on Seren power, and they'd be able to pick a Glom class with those power moves anyway. Yes, it might create some awkward situations, but that's part of roleplaying.
You don't alt much, do you
- Ur'Guard, Ninjakari, Nihilists
Advancement for newbies and novices still needs to be managed by active, caring and informed players. It's extremely easy to go wrong with automated advancement systems. Maybe some sort of incentive for experienced players to help newbies would be warranted, but nothing too valuable or someone will exploit the system.
I've honestly forgotten the point I was trying to make, but I like the faction idea. I would link to Richard Bartle's article on MUD Player Archetypes, but I'm unsure if I'm permitted to post such a thing here. Feel free to completely demolish this comment if I've done something terribly wrong.
Also, from what I observed in Achaea, I would suggest not going with the route of "Event that made the guilds get wiped out" or "Event that caused havoc and split" or some such. I would simply suggest a mini-event of perhaps evolution in city government where org mob tutors see the plausibility in combining their arts into more powerful Factors. Make sure to fully clarify that the guilds are not technically being 'deleted' since the classes, and their storylines (sup Ur'guard) will still exist, but simply this is a joining of efforts towards greater goals (other than just groupings of a class).
As for Envoys, how could we have 1 person per class if technically no one will have 1 official class anymore? People can classflex freely now (then), and our classes no longer represent each of us seperately. May simply be better to select 5 people per Org that are qualified, and not 5 people for each class.