Guild Overhaul

Zvoltz

There has been a lot of discussion by players on the forums and by the administration about player population and how much players are spread between orgs. This is something we attempted to address with Guild Covenants but the general consensus was that Covenants didn't fully address the problems that we had hoped they would. We have been thinking about this proposal for awhile (since before covenants!) and want to share it with players for feedback before we fully invest in it.

To start, we really wanted to address the complaints we have heard from players and also noticed ourselves as administrators. Those being largely that players in cities are spread out between 4-5 guilds making it difficult to advance, causing some guilds to seem empty, and creating many empty positions that get filled by inactive/semiactive players. I've outlined the main ideas we have come up with as solutions below.

Disclaimer: None of this is set in stone and it is all open to change, up to and including just not happening at all. In place of the word "guild" the proposal uses the word "faction" to clearly delineate between the current system and the proposed system.

• All current guilds would be removed.

• Three new factions would be created in each organization.
• The Faction Leader would be on the organization ruling council just as current Guild Leaders are.
• Guild Champion, protectors, and security positions would no longer exist.
• Guild Administrator and undersecretary positions would no longer exist.
• The secretary position would still exist for Factions with the same powers.
  
• Guild novicehood would no longer exist.
• Current guild halls would be removed and either repurposed or replaced entirely by new faction halls.
  
• All restrictions on archetype would be removed. Any archetype may join any faction in their city.

• A new Ministry of Security would be created for each city.
• The Ministry of Security would handle things previously handled by guild champion/security including enemy statuses and guard placement.

• The Ambassador Ministry would take over all novice-related functions city-wide.
• Ambassador would be in charge of the Collegium and appointing Collegium Professors.
• Players will graduate from the Collegium directly to Rank 1 in their Chosen Faction.

We recognize that guilds have a long history of very interesting lore as well as huge amounts of player work poured into them. We intend to transfer as much of this as possible into the Faction system (ex. we aren't suddenly just going to delete the bard guild Voices or come up with new and alien organizations to replace existing guilds).

An example for potential Hallifax factions is below to give you some idea of what this might look like. Disclaimer: Example not set in stone.

• The Institute of Art and Science
• Composed of Master Artists and Scientists, and those aspiring to achieve recognition as the premiere scions of Hallifaxian Culture. Players we are interested in the Science/Art aspects of Hallifaxian roleplay might join this faction.
  
• The Skylark Company
• Dystopian corporation of spies, and soldiers, doing what it takes to defend Hallifax from those who would destroy it and spread Hallifax's supremacy by force and coersion. Players interested in more sneaky/intelligence style roleplay or people who identify as soldiers and combatants might join this faction.
  
• The Bureau of Collectivism
• Cririk-style comrades working toward a plan for the good of all. Players who enjoy the bureaucratic aspect of Hallifax, players who identify as merchants or support-players, and players who want to try out the "servant" roleplay might join this faction.
  

Not all cities will keep this format, but the idea is to emphasize roleplay aspects that already exist within each organization. The factions also will allow players to choose their faction based on their own roleplay and interests rather than by what class they want to play. Especially with multi-class, a system unrestricted by class makes more sense. The Factions are also not intended to be limiting to roleplay. The Institute faction might offer seminars on the artistic history of the city or temporal science all citizens (similar to how the current Institute guild has an Associates degree program for Sentinels); all factions might require their GR1s to be taught about Collectivism and the Collectivist Manifesto; the Skylark Company might offer basic and advanced classes in defense and combat to the city-at-large.

We currently don't have a timeline set in stone, but work would not start on this until after the combat overhaul is finished. The divine consulate of each org will work with the organization leaders on specific faction-related things if/when we get to that point.

If you have any questions, comments, or concerns we would love to hear them. I can't really answer questions like "What will <city/commune>'s factions be?" but otherwise I'll be checking the thread frequently.

Cyndarin

LOVE.

How would envoys be handled? One per guild? Keep it one per class?

Can we consider other guild positions, a small hierarchy of sorts? Might be difficult to run a guild with only one all powerful person who handles everything. Maybe a faction council, 2 or 3 sub leaders also voted in. I just think help files, guild advancement, everything else would just be a ton of work for just one person.

edit: Oh secretaries would stay. Still may want some sub leaderships to keep things organized in the absence of a leader. 

Nilofer

I feel it is my civic duty to point out that this is quite possibly the stupidest idea possible, unless you are planning on removing the cities.

Aeden

Hm.. I can go along with this actually. I'm sure there'll be a flood of opinions coming!

Tekora

If archetype restrictions on guilds/factions are going to be lifted, does this mean that Hallifax and Gaudiguch will be getting our monk archetypes/guards/discretionaries?

Zvoltz

Celina said:

LOVE.

How would envoys be handled? One per guild? 

Can we consider other guild positions, a small hierarchy of sorts? Might be difficult to run a guild with only one all powerful person who handles everything. Maybe a faction council, 2 or 3 sub leaders also voted in. I just think help files, guild advancement, everything else would just be a ton of work for just one person.

@Ieptix or @Estarra or @Baelor would be the best to talk about how Envoys would be handled.

The idea is that the secretary position would be appointed to handle help files, advancement, or other administration function. If you have suggestions on how we could handle that, it is definitely something worth thinking about.

Malayn

How will classflex work? Since Pyros cannot approve it, will it be automatically available to anyone in the org?

@Tekora: Overhaul is going to redo monks, so assuming not until post overhaul.

Lorina

Sadly, something has to be done and this seems to be the best course.

Would we retain still some of the guilds we have now? I don't mind existing within a faction, but I will never be able to break the Aquamancer role.

Zvoltz

Tekora said:

If archetype restrictions on guilds/factions are going to be lifted, does this mean that Hallifax and Gaudiguch will be getting our monk archetypes/guards/discretionaries?

Creating two new monk classes doesn't really happen quickly but not having to add a monk guild would help remove that barrier, as players have repeatedly claimed that things are too spread out after the addition of bards and monks.

Zvoltz

Malarious said:

How will classflex work? Since Pyros cannot approve it, will it be automatically available to anyone in the org?

Yes, someone in Gaudiguch could classflex into Pyromancer, Illuminati, Templar, or Minstrel without needing permission to do so.

@Lorina Skills will not be changing. Players will keep all the skills they currently have.

Chirbo

I'm not really in support of the idea, but I feel I could work with this.

Acrune

Overall I like the idea.

I feel like this would be a good opportunity to clear up the GM/GA confusion as to who is in charge. I think you need both roles, but what I'd like to see is a faction leader who is in charge and is the ultimate authority within the faction, and a faction representative that serves in the organization that has no inherent faction authority beyond any other positions they may hold (such as secretary). Not sure if it should be elected or appointed.

Nilofer

Zvoltz said:

Creating two new monk classes doesn't really happen quickly but not having to add a monk guild would help remove that barrier, as players have repeatedly claimed that things are too spread out after the addition of bards and monks.

Let's not forget the spreading out that happened from Gaudiguch and Hallifax. Although initial knee-jerking done, I will now state that I will be mollified if there's a way to preserve the sole RP identity some people have derived from being *in* a guild.

Syrennia

Zvoltz said:

Those being largely that players in cities are spread out between 4-5 guilds making it difficult to advance, causing some guilds to seem empty

While I'm not gonna be as... Bold as Nilofer, I just wanna highlight this part. I don't think this plan is going to address this at all, in fact it might just exacerbate the problem... When the 'factions' start out, there's gonna be a large chunk of people who'll just join the faction their friends/family/whatever are joining, which'll in turn just have the same effect that current guilds have where a lot of new players will be turned off joining a faction due to its emptiness feeling that it'll end up having, leading them to instead join the more popular one, bringing us back to precisely the same situation we're in now... Just with less orgs.

'negativity' out of the way, what's gonna happen to guild libraries / bankaccounts / credit 'accounts' - are you gonna mimic what Achaea did, and let the leaders decide where they all go to? Also is this something that's gonna be RP'd through, or is it just gonna be a copout thing where some soulless creature or what have you, is gonna bound all over the cities 'coincidentally' destroying the guilds.

Tekora

Zvoltz said:

Tekora said:

If archetype restrictions on guilds/factions are going to be lifted, does this mean that Hallifax and Gaudiguch will be getting our monk archetypes/guards/discretionaries?

Creating two new monk classes doesn't really happen quickly but not having to add a monk guild would help remove that barrier, as players have repeatedly claimed that things are too spread out after the addition of bards and monks.

Doesn't have to happen quickly, just want it to happen. I'm finding myself liking your draft for Hallifax's factions and a promise that monks would be following soon after would clinch my support for it.

Kiradawea

I like this idea, though one worry I do have is putting all faction powers in the hands of one person. I really think you should consider having a second faction leader role, just to ensure that one person getting the faction leader position won't have an unbreakable iron grip on the position.

Davos

I support this idea. Additionally, I'd like to reiterate the statements regarding faction positions being necessary for hierarchy.

I'd also like to suggest that perhaps the city leadership be divorced from this process, or for cities to have the option to divorce the leadership from this. 

For instance, in Hallifax. If one of the factions is bureaucrats, it doesn't make a ton of sense for them to have only one representative. Additionally, for the faction leaders to also be council members makes it a bigger position that should really be asked of a single player (unless a city wants it setup that way).

I just thought of a better idea, allow guilds to select their representatives in the council. Then guilds could decide for themselves if they want the same leader and representative or not. 

Ayisdra

Syrennia said:

Zvoltz said:

'negativity' out of the way, what's gonna happen to guild libraries / bankaccounts / credit 'accounts' - are you gonna mimic what Achaea did, and let the leaders decide where they all go to? Also is this something that's gonna be RP'd through, or is it just gonna be a copout thing where some soulless creature or what have you, is gonna bound all over the cities 'coincidentally' destroying the guilds.

This would likely have to be addressed some how. I know there are some guild books that wouldn't dare be shared even with those in the same city.

Also there is the issue with guildhalls as well. The Aeros (or at least Elan told me) doesn't allow even other Hallifaxian on the Zeppelin with the Aerochem person. All these secret books and areas would have to be addressed some how to keep them like that.

Moi

At first I felt kinda skeptical about this. I mean, getting rid of guilds? But it is super lonely being a Cantor most of the time, and at least half of our novices explicitly leave because "there's noone around in the guild". So that's a definite point in favour of doing this. But I have questions.

1. Will there still be a City Leader? If so, that would put most organizations at 4 voting Council Members and could lead to an increase in political stalemates. Or maybe not. We managed when it was just 3 guilds per city.
2. How is cross-organizational classflexing going to be handled? Will it be forbidden, become a Council power or become a power of one of the Ministries? If a Ministry power, which Ministry?
3. Will still Ministers be appointed under this new system? Or would they switch to being elected, like GA/GC are currently, but now with a citywide vote?

Kalaneya

Initial quibble, and it's a stupid quibble, is the word faction itself implies (to me at least) the new organizations are competing with each other within the same city/commune. I'd simply prefer a better word. Fellowship or sect come to mind. Or your can get flavour through the org itself (companies for Hallifax, tribes for Seren for example).

Estarra

This is really too early in the discussion to worry about how envoys would be handled. Maybe we'd keep one per class or maybe we'd just say X per city/commune. I don't know!

I should point out that I am the last person who really was on board with removing the guild system as it is. I was very proud of how the guild system was set up and how it avoided some of the issues that other guild systems in other realms faced. But, yeah, we have to face the new normal of what can support a population of our size. I think Zvoltz and the other admin have come up with a very intriguing system which I think offers some great RP solutions as well as addressing the issues of an excess of guilds.

And, yes, I have even brought up that perhaps we just can't support 6 full player orgs. I've even considered combining player orgs--a permanent alliance of Gaudi/Seren, Celest/Hallifax, Mag/Glom (with one leader each pair). But that's really not on the table now, we're talking about factions replacing guilds.

Zvoltz

Nilofer said:

Zvoltz said:

Creating two new monk classes doesn't really happen quickly but not having to add a monk guild would help remove that barrier, as players have repeatedly claimed that things are too spread out after the addition of bards and monks.

Let's not forget the spreading out that happened from Gaudiguch and Hallifax. Although initial knee-jerking done, I will now state that I will be mollified if there's a way to preserve the sole RP identity some people have derived from being *in* a guild.

Yes, we also acknowledge how adding two new cities also thin the playerbase. There's no easy solution for that, but it is something we think about every time the population discussion happens.

What way would you suggest? Many of the admin worked to create and improve the guilds, both as admin and as players. We are not interested in ditching that hard work and we would be working with guild leaders on how best to translate those ideas forward. All ideas are appreciated.

Hoaracle

Kalaneya said:

Initial quibble, and it's a stupid quibble, is the word faction itself implies (to me at least) the new organizations are competing with each other within the same city/commune. I'd simply prefer a better word. Fellowship or sect come to mind. Or your can get flavour through the org itself (companies for Hallifax, tribes for Seren for example).

To be fair, @Estarra has always said that she understood the guilds as "political parties" that vie for authority in an org. Whether or not that is how things became is a different question all together. The term "faction" was meant to keep that view in mind. 

Zvoltz

Syrennia said:

'negativity' out of the way, what's gonna happen to guild libraries / bankaccounts / credit 'accounts' - are you gonna mimic what Achaea did, and let the leaders decide where they all go to? Also is this something that's gonna be RP'd through, or is it just gonna be a copout thing where some soulless creature or what have you, is gonna bound all over the cities 'coincidentally' destroying the guilds.

We would definitely give you something better then oops, the guilds exploded, here's some factions.

Estarra

BTW, I don't like the word 'faction' myself--it just somehow got stuck in our discussion. I do see it more as political parties. Perhaps bloc, parties, league... ideas?

Nilofer

Zvoltz said:

What way would you suggest? Many of the admin worked to create and improve the guilds, both as admin and as players. We are not interested in ditching that hard work and we would be working with guild leaders on how best to translate those ideas forward. All ideas are appreciated.

The best solution would be sorta what Kalaneya said, putting some sub-groups into the mess of an amalgamated guild system. Perhaps a little faction type thing in the mess where people can identify with a common theme... And... now I realize how much that sounds exactly like what we have now...

Wait, here we go: Vote or something on which guilds get deleted, keep the ones with an identity, and drop all the bard and monk guilds because that's the same thing I just said. Let you pick a skillset on chargen, and then join the Aero/Sentinel/Institute/Pyro/Templar/Illuminati/ur'Guard/Geo/Nihilist/Celestines/Paladins/Aqua/The same 3 original guilds with actual identities from Serendoring/Glomwilde.

Extremely-biased-case-in-point:

The ur'Guard. Catch all military in this new system. A newbie can roll their ninjakari and be cool and OP until Overhaul hits, but with the added benefit of RP.

Malayn

Can we call them "factions" or "divisions" for now and allow them to name themselves more specific later?

This seems like a good way for Halli to implement their Caste system, Mag could implement Military, Theology, etc (with factions being able to call themselves something fitting like The Church of Nil, The Ur'Guard Armed Forces, etc), Gaudi yada yada.

Customizing what the specific "faction" system is for each org would let them feed into their RP and keep the guilds RP to be pulled in potentially.

Martial Authority of the Ur'Guard could be Ninja, Ur'guard, and combatants. 

Throwing things out here and there, hopefully something good sounding.

Zagreus

Removing guilds is going to majorly upset a lot of people I think. There are many who are more loyal and connected to their guilds than their org itself. Heck, recently one Mag guild even talked about/"tried" to secede from Magnagora entirely.

If the goal is to remove the sparse nature of guilds, I only see three options as have been mentioned thus far:
1) Uproot/delete guilds into this system as stated, and majorly upset a lot of people who have magically lost the vast majority of their identity.
2) Combine/reduce orgs, and upset a different subset of people about the loss of their particular work/indentity.

or status quo 3) Not do it, and lose some amount of newer players due to it

Shuyin

Hell yeah about time. This had to happen. Been championing this idea for years, I feel super vindicated.

RE: envoys - 1 per class works, so 5 per org.

Minister of Security - I suggest the guild arties be something you can give to the aides (or the Minister), one per person. Or just delete them. Fine with that too.

Btw: I like the word "division" or "circle" more.

P.S. some of you are being drama queens - RP is meant to be flexible. Just because your guild got changed doesn't mean that your entire history has been destroyed. Mechanics > RP. Face the facts, you're not gonna get RP if you don't have anyone else to RP with in your empty guild.

Nilofer

Ixion said:

Heck, recently one Mag guild even talked about/"tried" to secede from Magnagora entirely.

To be fair, Ixion, there's a Mag post chartering our political independence.

Tekora

Considering the question of faction leadership, perhaps we can keep the current Triumvirate system we currently have with GC/GA/GM? 3 controlling positions within a faction, identical in function, but named differently for the sake of theme? It would allow work flow to be distributed so it's not piled on one person's shoulders and help maintain checks and balances as well.