If you think that you understand nothing about the history of the Serenwilde.
Spare me the emotional appeal. The commune warrior guilds are as bland as rice crackers.
Uh no. The Serenguard are actually Serenwilde's most interesting and lore-y guild. Outside of the Moondancers, this is by a large margin. By far and away.
The Ur'Guard were around back then, just in Shallach.
The relevant question here would be if it's the same ur'guard. If the Shallach ur'guard is the same as the Magnagoran ur'guard, then they can trace a line back quite far. But if you consider the appropriation of the ur'guard into the Celestine empire, and/or subsequent separation after the taint-wars as having created a new guild, then the guild itself suddenly becomes a whole lot younger.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
If we're playing "Who's Guild is the Oldest", that prize obviously goes either to the bard guilds (on the basis that they were founded by the Voices of Elder Gods) or to the Kephera Monk guilds, on the basis that they were founded by the first Kephera as part of keeping Illith trapped. Second (or maybe third, depending on where you place Keph's splintering) place goes jointly to the Illuminati and the Templar, who derive their secret knowledge from the same sect of dracnari mystics who built the Great Pyramid of Alin'dor in the early Vernal era. At best, the ur'Guard are the 3rd oldest (and quite possibly only fourth), assuming you count all of the bards as one age, both the Illuminati and the Templar as a single guild and assume that the splintering of Keph strictly after the Vernal Wars. But, of course, none of that matters. Even if the lorewise oldest guilds did want to claim priority the only fair and sensible thing to do would be to refuse them. Because nobody gets to turn their guild into an entire coalition without modification, no matter who you are. It defeats the entire purpose of a guild overhaul.
I've always played the old guilds as having links to the modern guilds but not necessarily being the same organization. In that way, the current Hartstone are the descendants of the Old (or Ancient) Druids, and so too is the current Hartstone guild a child of the Old Guild. In Serenwilde, there is an explicit gap between the two, partially because of the Civil War aftermath. I don't think it will be too rough on players to envision the new organizations as spiritual successors of the guilds, even if some of the 'bloodlines' migrate to an extra-coalitional structure.
No it's not a cultural thing. It's strictly a unique state identify Texans have. Texans have this unusual deep seated sense of state pride. Some states take pride in themselves, but Texas takes it to the extreme. As in, it's entirely normal for young people in Texas to tattoo Texas on themselves because TEXAS. My roommate, a fellow Texan, has an apron that is the Texas state flag. My friend in Maryland has a cutting board in the shape of Texas. If you eat breakfast at a hotel in Texas, it's pretty common for them to make texas shaped waffles. We have entire stores in not tourist centric cities that sell Texas related stuff to Texans. Want a Texas shaped clock? Drop me anywhere in Texas and I can probably find you one in 12 hours.
Texas is the only state in the US (that I'm aware of) that has seperate US History and state specific history classes.
Popular opinion in Texas is that Texas has special rights among the states, in that it can secede from the Union whenever it wants and it can support itself as a country. One is just factually inaccurate, the other is a questionable economic plan. A great many Texans also believe Texas has the unique privelage of being the only state that can fly its flag at the same level as the United States flag (this is not true either).
I say that to say this: Mag is basically Texas.
You have to take Oklahoma History round these parts which is utterly depressing to learn.
If we're playing "Who's Guild is the Oldest", that prize obviously goes either to the bard guilds (on the basis that they were founded by the Voices of Elder Gods) or to the Kephera Monk guilds, on the basis that they were founded by the first Kephera as part of keeping Illith trapped. Second (or maybe third, depending on where you place Keph's splintering) place goes jointly to the Illuminati and the Templar, who derive their secret knowledge from the same sect of dracnari mystics who built the Great Pyramid of Alin'dor in the early Vernal era. At best, the ur'Guard are the 3rd oldest (and quite possibly only fourth), assuming you count all of the bards as one age, both the Illuminati and the Templar as a single guild and assume that the splintering of Keph strictly after the Vernal Wars. But, of course, none of that matters. Even if the lorewise oldest guilds did want to claim priority the only fair and sensible thing to do would be to refuse them. Because nobody gets to turn their guild into an entire coalition without modification, no matter who you are. It defeats the entire purpose of a guild overhaul.
You bring up a point that I actually have to acknowledge. No, the ur'Guard *guild* itself is not necessarily the oldest of the guilds. But it is one of the original nine, which automatically puts it at older than the bard *guilds,* as they came into being in the 300s CE. Culturally, though, it is the ur'Guard, as they were roflstomping with Urlach back when the entire Basin was "little more than mugwumps and orclach playing in the swamp." Tied possibly with the kephera culture, but that just really depends on when your timeline says Keph splintered. Same with the bards, though, that doesn't make the guilds old, just the source of their power. With points to the monks for actually having practitioners prior to the Basin-at-large using it.
Back to the ur'Guard culture, though, it is a bit of a splintering, wandering path, but that was all very neatly resolved when the guild ur'Guard browbeat the other portion of the ur'Guard in Shallach into admitting brotherhood, circa that time Ixion beat them into a pulp.
Guilds that are not the original nine have the disadvantage. Guilds that are not warrior/mage/guardian/druid/wiccan have the same disadvantage. The lore was written with those in mind, the bard and monk guilds fit into modern lore, but inserting them retroactively into the deep backstory brings up either 1) R2D2 and C-3P0 forgot Vader was Anakin? or 2) Revisionism, in which case all RP and lore are a lie and we should just become one large anti-Soulless homegenized blob. This post is not me arguing a point so much as clarifying things a little bit.
A handful of states have mandatory state history classes. Texas has Texas national history. /forumRLRP
Doesn't stop them from being the Shofangi of the USA
Because I can't double quote....
I would say the Cantors, SS and Symph fit more so into their cities historical lore. Goo coring itself has a historical lore but Glom 2.0 is nothing akin to it and has thrived at times....
Nilofer said: ...older than the bard *guilds,* as they came into being in the 300s CE.
Bard guilds came into being in 159 CE.
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
Nilofer said: ...older than the bard *guilds,* as they came into being in the 300s CE.
Bard guilds came into being in 159 CE.
Yes, thank you, I was actually about to edit that myself. I was reading the Symphonium file and forgot that it was released way after the other bards XD
The ur'Guard are specifically the same guild as Shallach.
There are all kinds of event posts in the UG news regarding admin RP where the ur'Guard strove for IC decades to A. beat the crap out of shallach or B. convince them that we're the same guild. From the posts, it says that Ixion succeeded by winning a duel with Korath back in the day and that they acknowledged that the past and present ur'Guard were one. Our guild tutor is literally one of the ur'Dead from Shallach.
In fact, the ur'Guard *in* Magnagora are the remnants of the ur'Guard who weren't buried alive(undead?) in Shallach during the Taint Wars. The only way that Shallach got uncovered was because the ur'Guard quested to see if anything of their former guild was still there, and Fain helped out with blowing the Horn to try to break some of the wards on Shallach, which succeeded. So if it wasn't for the Mag UG, the Shallach UG would still be buried under ten tons of rubble.
I was told Korath didn't used to be a supermob. I suppose there's no way to prove it except for me to actually not know a single instance in my whole time playing this game where Ixion has lied to anynoe about anything, ICly or OOCly.
It also could have been one of those things where the admin actually load up player skills into a mob and fight.
The intention of the thread was get to feedback on the overall proposed system. We've gotten a lot of great ideas but in the last three pages or so we have really drifted into a different topic entirely. Brainstorming new Factions for your org is fine, but we are going to work with the cities on an individual basis so I don't want everyone to get hung up on that as we have no concrete plans to decide on what the factions will be right now at all.
Really what would be most helpful is feedback on the overall system. The ideas about having a separate person other than the Faction Leader serve on the council, or customizable secretary positions have been really great feedback. Even posts about why people don't like the proposed system are helpful. The current discussion about who has the oldest or best guild isn't.
For the most part, we aren't receptive to the idea that bards and monks just suck and can be deleted, and continuously pushing that idea isn't going to get us anywhere.
8
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited December 2015
I think his point is player news boards aren't "lore."
To: Everyone
Topic: Celina is The Night
Coven,
I had a vision, and I am Night's avatar. Obey me. I wrote it so it's true.
My biggest suggestion on the mechanical aspects at this point are still that there needs to be a way to preserve relatively insular class-based roleplay outside the factional system. Some of that can be served by the existing clan mechanics (possibly with some modest upgrades), but guild/class sacred locations and so on should be ported somehow, and not monopolized by one faction.
Maybe a sort of communal socializing/utility spot for each faction, and then each class can have their own areas outside of that with lore ties, where they can mingle with people from their class regardless of faction?
I honestly don't know.
I occasionally like to pretend that I'm replanting all of these herbs to attract bees, and might one day form an alliance with the bees and take over the Basin. Then we could have a wonderful tea party with plenty of honey and the best tea blends.
Honestly, I would say just preserve the existing guildhalls (sans tutors for learning, maybe keep them anyways just for the RP tithe), and build something entirely new for factions. They obviously wouldn't continue to serve the same purpose, but would be great for socialising as @Kurut mentions, and stuff to look back on after the changes. I don't see a reason they should just disappear.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
If we're playing "Who's Guild is the Oldest", that prize obviously goes either to the bard guilds (on the basis that they were founded by the Voices of Elder Gods) or to the Kephera Monk guilds, on the basis that they were founded by the first Kephera as part of keeping Illith trapped. Second (or maybe third, depending on where you place Keph's splintering) place goes jointly to the Illuminati and the Templar, who derive their secret knowledge from the same sect of dracnari mystics who built the Great Pyramid of Alin'dor in the early Vernal era. At best, the ur'Guard are the 3rd oldest (and quite possibly only fourth), assuming you count all of the bards as one age, both the Illuminati and the Templar as a single guild and assume that the splintering of Keph strictly after the Vernal Wars. But, of course, none of that matters. Even if the lorewise oldest guilds did want to claim priority the only fair and sensible thing to do would be to refuse them. Because nobody gets to turn their guild into an entire coalition without modification, no matter who you are. It defeats the entire purpose of a guild overhaul.
Guilds that are not the original nine have the disadvantage. Guilds that are not warrior/mage/guardian/druid/wiccan have the same disadvantage. The lore was written with those in mind, the bard and monk guilds fit into modern lore, but inserting them retroactively into the deep backstory brings up either 1) R2D2 and C-3P0 forgot Vader was Anakin? or 2) Revisionism, in which case all RP and lore are a lie and we should just become one large anti-Soulless homegenized blob. This post is not me arguing a point so much as clarifying things a little bit.
FYI this is wrong. Estarra has stated that all archetypes and guilds have existed since conception to be implemented when appropriate. Their lore was not inserted "retroactively." They were released, according to the producer, as designed and the lore was written with everyone in mind.
We get it, Ur'guard so awesome etc etc, but still no.
Something mentioned a couple of times here is that a lot of the guilds don't just have player and admin bolstered internal lore which we're all sad about losing, but a lot have a great deal of actual historical importance. In a way, it wouldn't make a lot of sense that -anything- could happen and these guilds would simply stop existing. The ur'Guard can serve as an example of this, even if it's debatable that there's an unbroken chain of succession or something. Nothing has stopped the ur'Guard from continuing on time after time, why would that change now?
So maybe the guilds themselves shouldn't disappear exactly, but be relegated first and foremost to NPC institutions. Magnagora will still have NPC ur'Guards, Celest will still have NPC Aquamancers, Glomdoring will still have NPC Shadowdancers. PCs however have a higher calling or something, and so they join coalitions, which focus on different aspects of the orgs, even if they co-opt a lot of player driven lore from guilds. Magnagora might have the mentioned Army of Darkness or ur'Lords which borrow heavily from ur'Guard lore, and can even claim descendance from the originals if you like, but also incorporate lore from other guilds and new lore that hasn't been explored. The guild halls can become public areas, populated by NPC guildies, and maybe someday even have little lore quests to show what that guild was about. That way, a lot of the amazing history this game has isn't just lost.
But as well, maybe the High Clans idea that was floated would be a good one. Then, if enough people really did want to claim membership in a traditional guild, they could go through the process of getting a High Clan made and approved, and reestablish PC ur'Guard, Harbingers, Institute, whatever.
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
Some of the guilds have conspicuously less player-accessible lore. Of course, all of the guilds are tied into the general overarching lore, and have lore in the sense of a history and NPCs. Not all of that necessarily translates into guild culture, teachings, and guild-based roleplay.
The Shofangi are one great example in Serenwilde: They have ties to Kephera and some mutterings about Bull. Some players have done a fantastic job with their personal RP based on these ideas, but there is no guild RP culture outside of those players, who are basically doing their own thing without the rest of the guild. There is some mechanical support for Bull rp... but it's sparse and boring. I've read Nimalit's treatise on Bull and it's really generic and uninspiring - low guild participation in it is testament to that fact. On the other hand, if you play in the Moondancers or Serenguard, there IS a unified cultural RP experience, a Serenguard experience or a Moondancers experience.
In general, when people are talking about preserving guild lore, it's those player-accessible lore guilds they're probably talking about. Things like the monk guild's connection to the undervault and tutors can generally be repurposed and reconnected to factions quite easily. Having a place for the priesthood of Moon to congregate and devote themselves to study is a big must, and dedicating an entire faction/coalition to that is probably a bad idea.
After a good night's sleep (actually not really, still tired from work), there's just one thing I wanted to say.
A guild with vibrant lore and satisfied guild members doesn't really need to disparage other guilds to elevate their own. Most people satisfied and secure in the knowledge of their guild's importance and significance in Lusternia's lore are content to acknowledge other guilds' similarly important and intricate interconnections with the history, the present fabric, and more importantly, the future of the story of Lusternia's never-ending struggle with the Soulless.
The biggest draw of Lusternia when compared to the other IRE games has always been the pre-planned, interweaving storylines and the significance of every individual - not just organisational - identity of the characters that make up the lore. In fact, I'm willing to bet good money that the overall feel and atmosphere of the lore that is so intricately integrated into the game world is a far bigger draw for new players than "guild identities" in general. The fact that characters like Marani, Marilynth, Rowena that play such important roles in the history, yet still exist in the game as NPCs or boss mobs is reminiscent of how Blizzard captured imaginations with their implementation of the warcraft franchise. (You could possibly even argue the other way around, that they took pointers from the way Lusternia did this - though, of course, that is not provable, and probably unlikely. But you never know!)
Some of the other IREs do that as well, but Lusternia does it to a larger extent - to my knowledge anyway. The development of a coherent, epic storyline underpinning all the lore and happenings of a game universe is one of the things that some IREs have been trying to do as well, with their events and all, but you could start a debate arguing that Lusternia's is the most well-written and planned out in advance of all four IRE original games, and have a very decent chance of winning. There have been cases where Estarra's combat design decisions rubbed me the wrong way personally, but I still play this game precisely because I know I can count on Estarra's writing to more than make up for it. To try an argue that one guild is "best" and above and beyond better than two entire archetypes in the face of all the evidence to the contrary is laughable at best.
It is testament to the entire player population's trust in Estarra, and the reciprocation of that trust that we are actually having this thread to talk about. The concept of re-structuring guilds would otherwise be an entirely executive and admin-mandated event, with no player contribution, simply because of the sheer wall of disagreement that would result from any other producer trying to introduce such an idea in advance. Players are confident enough in Estarra's vision, and committed enough to contribute in all aspects of the game's lore that they are actually (partially?) receptive to the idea, and Estarra is likewise secure enough in the integrity of the game's lore, and each org's role and place in it, to open the discussion to the floor for feedback.
At least, that's what I'd like to think - I'm not 100% sure that's what's going on in Estarra's mind, after all. But it would be nice to think there's a degree of mutual respect and trust that allows a producer to let his baby and universe be open to player suggestion and input.
The intention of the thread was get to feedback on the overall proposed system. We've gotten a lot of great ideas but in the last three pages or so we have really drifted into a different topic entirely. Brainstorming new Factions for your org is fine, but we are going to work with the cities on an individual basis so I don't want everyone to get hung up on that as we have no concrete plans to decide on what the factions will be right now at all.
Really what would be most helpful is feedback on the overall system. The ideas about having a separate person other than the Faction Leader serve on the council, or customizable secretary positions have been really great feedback. Even posts about why people don't like the proposed system are helpful. The current discussion about who has the oldest or best guild isn't.
For the most part, we aren't receptive to the idea that bards and monks just suck and can be deleted, and continuously pushing that idea isn't going to get us anywhere.
I'd really like ministry style positions in the guilds. I.E you can appoint a "Head Archivist" or "Head of Novices" person and they can manage that aspect of the faction with aides they appoint themselves. (Ideally with the ability to individually customise the privileges that the aides and office bearer have.
Mostly because one thing that's popped up in the past that was kinda nice was appointing secretaries to a specific position. It'd be great to be able to actually create that position let them take on aides if necessary because sometimes structures that you want to create work more neatly like this and it offers more autonomy to those placed in the position.
As a bonus I feel it reinforces faction culture. Just because opposed to having everyone as a generic secretary you actually get a title which could be reflected on your faction help file and in the relevant who. When someone says "Talk to the Shaman of the White Hart" you don't need to hunt through potentially out of date files to find it, their name is just sitting there for everyone to see.
Something that I just remembered from my random ramblings about guild ranks.
It would be amazing if favours had specific strengths for raising your rank. It's a bit wonky right now because it seems that favours give "points" relative to the person that is favouring you. But sometimes a guild leader just wants to say "good job" without giving a favour equivalent to what they'd give for a major project.
For this, I'd love to see distinct privileges for "faction favour low/mid/high/elder" (or some better names cause brain doesn't care right now). These would give 1/2/3/4 rank points respectively with each being a once per day. (Or if people are opposed to that maybe some other method where you have 4 points a day that you can distribute them however you like)
Also, would kinda really love it if we had faction honours which inflated your rank by one rather than giving you a guild favour, no actual change to the "rank points" you've accrued though, so if it's removed you'd just be one rank lower. But by the same note the highest faction rank would only be attainable with the honour.
Oh, and while I'm on my ranks ramble could there be a way for leaders to retain their actual rank when in leadership and be returned to it when they're removed. Just so there aren't instant rank 19's because they won an election.
Conversely, maybe we should just add in a guild function that raises a person's guild rank immediately, rather than asking multiple people to favour someone to raise him/her to another rank. I guess I just don't understand why we want there to be less high-ranking guild members, going so far as to add in favour functionality that does not increase someone's rank, and reverting someone to a low rank after serving in guild leadership. Are there actually people who want to make guild advancement as difficult as possible?
Are there actually people who want to make guild advancement as difficult as possible?
You would absolutely be surprised. There seems to be two trains of thought: the idea that more people in higher ranks can only be helpful, and the idea that ranks should be only rarely given so people appreciate them more.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Cityranks usually should be given out as much as possible because of mechanical reasons, specifically revolts. Of course, orgs can choose not to do so if they deem that they already have a healthy enough pool of people with org influence abilities.
Immediate jumping of Guildranks for winning an election, however, really doesn't have much justification for it - of course, guild rank really matters so little that there's really no reason to prevent that from happening. If it was a big deal, more people would be musical-chairing positions to raise everyone to the max GR, and more people would be screaming to have that mechanic removed. The reason why it's been around for so long is because guild rank doesn't mean much except for bragging rights - and most people ignore those who brag about it when they got it via an election anyway.
Basically, the bottomline is - it really doesn't matter.
If anything, though, reducing the number of GRs from 20 (or 19) to 10 would be a better idea, because god DAMN is it difficult to think of requirements for the higher ranks.
Comments
Uh no. The Serenguard are actually Serenwilde's most interesting and lore-y guild. Outside of the Moondancers, this is by a large margin. By far and away.
You have to take Oklahoma History round these parts which is utterly depressing to learn.
You bring up a point that I actually have to acknowledge. No, the ur'Guard *guild* itself is not necessarily the oldest of the guilds. But it is one of the original nine, which automatically puts it at older than the bard *guilds,* as they came into being in the 300s CE. Culturally, though, it is the ur'Guard, as they were roflstomping with Urlach back when the entire Basin was "little more than mugwumps and orclach playing in the swamp." Tied possibly with the kephera culture, but that just really depends on when your timeline says Keph splintered. Same with the bards, though, that doesn't make the guilds old, just the source of their power. With points to the monks for actually having practitioners prior to the Basin-at-large using it.
Back to the ur'Guard culture, though, it is a bit of a splintering, wandering path, but that was all very neatly resolved when the guild ur'Guard browbeat the other portion of the ur'Guard in Shallach into admitting brotherhood, circa that time Ixion beat them into a pulp.
Guilds that are not the original nine have the disadvantage. Guilds that are not warrior/mage/guardian/druid/wiccan have the same disadvantage. The lore was written with those in mind, the bard and monk guilds fit into modern lore, but inserting them retroactively into the deep backstory brings up either 1) R2D2 and C-3P0 forgot Vader was Anakin? or 2) Revisionism, in which case all RP and lore are a lie and we should just become one large anti-Soulless homegenized blob.
This post is not me arguing a point so much as clarifying things a little bit.
Doesn't stop them from being the Shofangi of the USA Because I can't double quote.... I would say the Cantors, SS and Symph fit more so into their cities historical lore. Goo coring itself has a historical lore but Glom 2.0 is nothing akin to it and has thrived at times....
Bard guilds came into being in 159 CE.
Really what would be most helpful is feedback on the overall system. The ideas about having a separate person other than the Faction Leader serve on the council, or customizable secretary positions have been really great feedback. Even posts about why people don't like the proposed system are helpful. The current discussion about who has the oldest or best guild isn't.
For the most part, we aren't receptive to the idea that bards and monks just suck and can be deleted, and continuously pushing that idea isn't going to get us anywhere.
I honestly don't know.
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So maybe the guilds themselves shouldn't disappear exactly, but be relegated first and foremost to NPC institutions. Magnagora will still have NPC ur'Guards, Celest will still have NPC Aquamancers, Glomdoring will still have NPC Shadowdancers. PCs however have a higher calling or something, and so they join coalitions, which focus on different aspects of the orgs, even if they co-opt a lot of player driven lore from guilds. Magnagora might have the mentioned Army of Darkness or ur'Lords which borrow heavily from ur'Guard lore, and can even claim descendance from the originals if you like, but also incorporate lore from other guilds and new lore that hasn't been explored. The guild halls can become public areas, populated by NPC guildies, and maybe someday even have little lore quests to show what that guild was about. That way, a lot of the amazing history this game has isn't just lost.
But as well, maybe the High Clans idea that was floated would be a good one. Then, if enough people really did want to claim membership in a traditional guild, they could go through the process of getting a High Clan made and approved, and reestablish PC ur'Guard, Harbingers, Institute, whatever.
The Shofangi are one great example in Serenwilde: They have ties to Kephera and some mutterings about Bull. Some players have done a fantastic job with their personal RP based on these ideas, but there is no guild RP culture outside of those players, who are basically doing their own thing without the rest of the guild. There is some mechanical support for Bull rp... but it's sparse and boring. I've read Nimalit's treatise on Bull and it's really generic and uninspiring - low guild participation in it is testament to that fact. On the other hand, if you play in the Moondancers or Serenguard, there IS a unified cultural RP experience, a Serenguard experience or a Moondancers experience.
Something that I just remembered from my random ramblings about guild ranks.
It would be amazing if favours had specific strengths for raising your rank. It's a bit wonky right now because it seems that favours give "points" relative to the person that is favouring you. But sometimes a guild leader just wants to say "good job" without giving a favour equivalent to what they'd give for a major project.
For this, I'd love to see distinct privileges for "faction favour low/mid/high/elder" (or some better names cause brain doesn't care right now). These would give 1/2/3/4 rank points respectively with each being a once per day. (Or if people are opposed to that maybe some other method where you have 4 points a day that you can distribute them however you like)
Also, would kinda really love it if we had faction honours which inflated your rank by one rather than giving you a guild favour, no actual change to the "rank points" you've accrued though, so if it's removed you'd just be one rank lower. But by the same note the highest faction rank would only be attainable with the honour.
Oh, and while I'm on my ranks ramble could there be a way for leaders to retain their actual rank when in leadership and be returned to it when they're removed. Just so there aren't instant rank 19's because they won an election.
I think I'm done now maybe sorry >_>
You would absolutely be surprised. There seems to be two trains of thought: the idea that more people in higher ranks can only be helpful, and the idea that ranks should be only rarely given so people appreciate them more.