I refuse to believe that @Arimisia, or @Marcella (though I guess not anymore) will suddenly lose their 'identity' and all their lore and background and their character by the switch from guilds to coalitions. It won't be exactly the same as the Ur'Guard - but that doesn't mean it won't pull from there and have it still be a large part of whatever coalition's identity is.
Here's the question I suppose. If the identity and lore can be semi-translated into coalitions, are you willing to make the move? Some things will be lost (but lets be honest, things will always be lost eventually, guilds or coalitions), but if a good chunk of it could remain intact and make the transition, would you be willing to make the change?
If the answer is 'yes' then lets start working on how to adapt rather than being contrary.
I refuse to believe that @Arimisia, or @Marcella (though I guess not anymore) will suddenly lose their 'identity' and all their lore and background and their character by the switch from guilds to coalitions. It won't be exactly the same as the Ur'Guard - but that doesn't mean it won't pull from there and have it still be a large part of whatever coalition's identity is.
Here's the question I suppose. If the identity and lore can be semi-translated into coalitions, are you willing to make the move? Some things will be lost (but lets be honest, things will always be lost eventually, guilds or coalitions), but if a good chunk of it could remain intact and make the transition, would you be willing to make the change?
If the answer is 'yes' then lets start working on how to adapt rather than being contrary.
A minor aside and maybe I missed it in any of the pages - but isn't this new system not even approved yet by Estarra? I thought this thread was to see how people liked the idea in general. Not "hey, we are actually doing this at somepoint"
I refuse to believe that @Arimisia, or @Marcella (though I guess not anymore) will suddenly lose their 'identity' and all their lore and background and their character by the switch from guilds to coalitions. It won't be exactly the same as the Ur'Guard - but that doesn't mean it won't pull from there and have it still be a large part of whatever coalition's identity is.
Here's the question I suppose. If the identity and lore can be semi-translated into coalitions, are you willing to make the move? Some things will be lost (but lets be honest, things will always be lost eventually, guilds or coalitions), but if a good chunk of it could remain intact and make the transition, would you be willing to make the change?
If the answer is 'yes' then lets start working on how to adapt rather than being contrary.
A minor aside and maybe I missed it in any of the pages - but isn't this new system not even approved yet by Estarra? I thought this thread was to see how people liked the idea in general. Not "hey, we are actually doing this at somepoint"
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I don't understand how that effects anything I asked or said? It's like you're just ignoring the question because you're not willing to work with it, yet the only arguments presented against this move is guild identity and it's importance. If those fears can be alleviated to an extent, would you be willing to make the change?
I refuse to believe that @Arimisia, or @Marcella (though I guess not anymore) will suddenly lose their 'identity' and all their lore and background and their character by the switch from guilds to coalitions. It won't be exactly the same as the Ur'Guard - but that doesn't mean it won't pull from there and have it still be a large part of whatever coalition's identity is.
Here's the question I suppose. If the identity and lore can be semi-translated into coalitions, are you willing to make the move? Some things will be lost (but lets be honest, things will always be lost eventually, guilds or coalitions), but if a good chunk of it could remain intact and make the transition, would you be willing to make the change?
If the answer is 'yes' then lets start working on how to adapt rather than being contrary.
A minor aside and maybe I missed it in any of the pages - but isn't this new system not even approved yet by Estarra? I thought this thread was to see how people liked the idea in general. Not "hey, we are actually doing this at somepoint"
I don't understand how that effects anything I asked or said? It's like
you're just ignoring the question because you're not willing to work
with it, yet the only arguments presented against this move is guild
identity and it's importance. If those fears can be alleviated to an
extent, would you be willing to make the change?
I didn't answer because I'm not as passionately tied to staying with the guild system as some others are. Sorry I didn't make that clear. At the end of the day, if we do change, I will adept towards the path I see best for this.
There is no reason for the Ur'guard to stop existing as a coalition if the admin/org leaders decide.
If Mag/gods agree that the ur'guard charter can be repurposed into something that represents the military of Mag and will accept any/all classes, then yeah, I don't think there will be any problems, since there will be less guilds in the end either way.
I don't understand how people keep fighting against the idea by repeating the "BUT MUH IDENTITY" when the admin have repeatedly stated that they are gonna do everything in their power to preserve as much of it as they can.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
@Nilofer , I understand your very strong attachment to you guild. Believe me. I've spent 10 RL years crafting and building Serenguard lore. I'm absolutely in love with my guild, and the thought of losing that uniqueness makes me scared, nervous; it makes my heart race and feeling of dread rise in my gut. I am incredibly proud of the lore that we've put together stretching all the way back to the guild's founding in the long distant past, and the way we're used as an example by the admin of players building something incredible.
But if you think you're going to stand there and declare, "My guild is so unique and special that the only possible solution is to keep us exactly the same; deal with it," not only are you wrong, you're going to lose. It's arrogant, egotistical, and as has been pointed out, there are lots of other guilds who have deep lore that exemplifies what this game is all about (not just my own). If this proposal by the admin, which is still in its infant stages, is the direction the game must go, then it must go that way, and we will all, even us decaders who have devoted a significant portion of our real lives to making this game memorable and leaving actual, permanent marks on it, have to accept that. And we will move forward, taking what we already have and building something even greater with it.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Lusternia has always been about the lore. That's not going to change. We have the best lore, we keep getting more cool lore every year. If this happens, I'm sure will be done in a way that preserves lore and adds opportunity for more awesome lore.
Why look at this as a bad thing, instead of as an opportunity for characters to change, grow, have new rp added to them? If you're really about the rp, like I am, this can be good. I already have a bunch of ideas. Trying not to get too excited about it, as, not confirmed this will happen. Just take some time to think about the possibilities.
But if you think you're going to stand there and declare, "My guild is so unique and special that the only possible solution is to keep us exactly the same; deal with it," not only are you wrong, you're going to lose. It's arrogant, egotistical, and as has been pointed out, there are lots of other guilds who have deep lore that exemplifies what this game is all about (not just my own). If this proposal by the admin, which is still in its infant stages, is the direction the game must go, then it must go that way, and we will all, even us decaders who have devoted a significant portion of our real lives to making this game memorable and leaving actual, permanent marks on it, have to accept that. And we will move forward, taking what we already have and building something even greater with it.
If the goal is to make guilds not look so empty (and by that attract/keep new players) then you have to consider:
Will these people saying "no, this is a stupid idea" leave the game and not come back? The combat overhaul pushed some people away (Is this number big, I have no idea. maybe-maybe not). There is no doubt in my mind that if this guild overhaul does happen, that it will make people quit the game. It will be up to the admins to decide if the numbers of people quitting vs the possible of others staying/coming/etc is worth it.
I think a majority of the people who left because of the combat overhaul only did so because it's taken so long. There's a fairly high chance that they'll come back (and maybe even bring a few new people in) once everything's settled and stable to use again.
Now, I'm very much a proponent of the Factions proposal, and I do think it will be good thing for the game in the long run to prevent sparsely-populated guilds. But, it should be pointed out as well that it isn't going to be a magical fix that will happen quickly. After the Factions system goes in, there'll be some fumbling and mumbling time as people align themselves to the new norm. There's a chance some of the Factions will 'fail', maybe for a while, like Hallifax with the caste system and Gaudiguch with its anarchy when they first came out.
I guess what I'm getting at is that this will be a major change, and it will require any and all the support it can get. If the admin decide it's going to push through with Factions, let's try and be good players and support the change as much as we have supported our current guilds.
But if you think you're going to stand there and declare, "My guild is so unique and special that the only possible solution is to keep us exactly the same; deal with it," not only are you wrong, you're going to lose. It's arrogant, egotistical, and as has been pointed out, there are lots of other guilds who have deep lore that exemplifies what this game is all about (not just my own). If this proposal by the admin, which is still in its infant stages, is the direction the game must go, then it must go that way, and we will all, even us decaders who have devoted a significant portion of our real lives to making this game memorable and leaving actual, permanent marks on it, have to accept that. And we will move forward, taking what we already have and building something even greater with it.
If the goal is to make guilds not look so empty (and by that attract/keep new players) then you have to consider:
Will these people saying "no, this is a stupid idea" leave the game and not come back? The combat overhaul pushed some people away (Is this number big, I have no idea. maybe-maybe not). There is no doubt in my mind that if this guild overhaul does happen, that it will make people quit the game. It will be up to the admins to decide if the numbers of people quitting vs the possible of others staying/coming/etc is worth it.
Guilds in their current state have pushed some people away(this number is likely big because it's been happening over the course of years.). There is no doubt in my mind that if this guild overhaul doesn't happen, that it will make people quit the game if not immediately then over time. It will be up to the admins to decide if the numbers of people quitting vs the possibility of others staying/coming/etc is worth it.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Tip: if your guild identity is linked to autonomy to a degree that the guild believes itself s higher power over the org that created it (ex. Refusing to remove not citizens/ enemies from the guild), your RP identity has taken a turn for the bad and you're probably the most in need of a guild reorganization a la factions.
Tip: if your guild identity is linked to autonomy to a degree that the guild believes itself s higher power over the org that created it (ex. Refusing to remove not citizens/ enemies from the guild), your RP identity has taken a turn for the bad and you're probably the most in need of a guild reorganization a la factions.
Catch up, dearie, we've already covered the part where the ur'Guard outdate Mag and are only in it now because it provides undeath. We're discussing how to hold guild identities in a coalition-y playing field, now.
I think her point was: Don't. Find some way to grow from Ur'Guard the guild into whatever coalition you end up with. If that coalition is a military arm of Magnagora called the Ur'Guard, it still won't be Ur'Guard the guild, but instead will take ideas from the Ur'Guard guild and the Nihilist zealots and the Ninjakari assassins and the Geomancer...uh...stonethrowers? and the Cacophany Warscreamers and structure it into a military. Because it MUST be an extension of those guilds as well, or we end up so close to square 1 that sports fans will be arguing about whether it was a goal for decades.
A re- (re-re-re?) rechartering of the ur'Guard to now be Magnagora's unified military, keeping it's current ranking structure and re-invigorated to have really interesting ways to incorporate scholarly, combative, and religious branches of all the guilds, united by military doctrine and such.
One idea for a Hallifax coalition is the Ministry of Information, tasked with gathering knowledge, censoring or declassifying it, and vetting, producing, reproducing, and distributing art and propaganda in the name of the Collective.
I can actually see the Gaudiguch Gossip filling the same role in our counterpart, but I don't know if there's enough of that sort of vibe in Gaudi to support it. Another Idea for Gaudi might be the Flames of Revolution, tasked or self-tasked with the purpose of countering oppression and spreading freedom and anarchy wherever they go.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
It is very possible that people will leave the game because of the guild overhaul. When I first heard about it, I was going to be one of them. I can't fault people for wanting to leave if their exact guild is gone. So far, this proposal is in the infancy stage--we don't know if it will happen, and we have very little idea what it will look like. I keep going back to @Maylea's post, which is where I think our best hope lies. I don't know what will happen re: player retention. What I was confronting was the superiority attitude concerning some guilds that is completely at odds with the spirit of the discussion.
Ironically, one of the turning points for me in going from absolutely opposed to the idea to being a tacit supporter was when I realized that this discussion mirrors nearly exactly what I face every day in my vocation. It's eerie, really.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Tip: if your guild identity is linked to autonomy to a degree that the guild believes itself s higher power over the org that created it (ex. Refusing to remove not citizens/ enemies from the guild), your RP identity has taken a turn for the bad and you're probably the most in need of a guild reorganization a la factions.
Catch up, dearie, we've already covered the part where the ur'Guard outdate Mag and are only in it now because it provides undeath. We're discussing how to hold guild identities in a coalition-y playing field, now.
MMMK CUTE but condescension does not make you sound clever, especially when this entire Ur'Guard exceptionalism mentality has derailed the intent of the thread with individuals kvetching over the perceived amazingness they possess and cannot be touched. The name "Ur'Guard" predates Magnagora, the Ur'Guard guild does not. Your own champion has a title that directly references a Demon Lord which is explicitly Magnagoran. No, the Ur'Guard are not an autonomous entity simply tolerating Magnagora for undeath, you were absorbed by the city and are subject to org authority. What the Ur'Guard were has been entirely rewritten to adapt to being part of Magnagora. Shit sucks bruh but we're not going to get very far in the faction identity discussion if the premise you are trying to hammer on is 1) wrong and 2) unsustainable as a coalition
IF that degree of autonomy and that type of idenity is what you are trying to "hold" on to as a faction, it's not going to work. That is my point, you cannot translate that identity into a faction in a constructive manner. It's fundamentally the opposite of a "coaltion."
Yeah, to echo what's been said, it's quite possible (and very likely) that people will quit over this. Any kind of change is going to risk that as it's the nature of change. People don't really like it in general.
Technically, the modern ur'Guard is more like a tribute band, and not the band itself. That leaves wiggle room for the lore (not much, but enough).
The same can be said for many other guilds in the game, but are we really going to pick that apart now? The guild overhaul was proposed for a reason, because empty guilds leads to players, both old and new, feeling left out or losing interest in the game.
It's a good idea, but it's not going to be as easy as 'relog and everything will be fine'. It's going to take a genuine effort on everyone's account, from the admins who work up the shift in policy to the players and leadership who add flavor to the new lore and state of things.
I occasionally like to pretend that I'm replanting all of these herbs to attract bees, and might one day form an alliance with the bees and take over the Basin. Then we could have a wonderful tea party with plenty of honey and the best tea blends.
after reading hte past couple of pages I want to address something, I did not intend to come off sounding condescending or to even mply that this is a 100% bad idea. really its not.. it IS something we need to work on because obviously with empty guilds we do have a problem, especially in regards to player retention... that is something that needs to be worked on... getting and keeping more players. now i'm not sure if this is the right way to go about it or not but yes the guild system does need an overhaul (though personally I think the family system needs overhauling alot more!) but that is neither here nor there... this is entirely possible that such a change...while scary and intimidating can be entirely possible... the point I was trying to make is that it -has to be done right- or it wont work and will just lead to anarchy and alot of very pissed off players. Ideas and suggestions need to be taken seriously.. not just said they will be and then the admins go and do whatever they want (you guys are awesome dont get me wrong and we love you and I fully believe you will and do take us seriously, you wouldnt have asked us otherwise!) I just keep thinking back to what a disaster it was for Achaea and what a headache it gave everyone trying to adapt to such a big change so quickly. i'm not saying we shouldn't do it.. I'm saying the proper amount of time should be taken that it can be done constructively and in a way that involves and pleases the majority of your player base (I say majority because it's unrealistic to think we can make -everyone- happy.)
It's a scary and nerve-wracking thing to us players who have invested so much into makin this game great... it's like telling Da Vinci that the Mona Lisa isn't good enough and he should paint her again, this time with a prettier smile or to tell Van Gogh that his "Starry Night" doesn't have enough stars... and I think a full and detailed plan needs to be laid out for the players before things can even begin to think about change so that the players can decide what is or isn't right, what should or shouldn't be added, to critique, assist and give what ever -constructive- criticisms we think are best for us as players and the organizations we run and are loyal to.
As first GA of the Blacktalon seeing everything you spent so much time on and dedicated yourself to go poof sucks donkey balls. It's not a good feeling, but eventually you get over it.
When a newbie enters the realm, first he chooses a class. He is then automatically placed in the commune/city of that class. He won't need to join a guild/faction, and that would be fine since most helpful scrolls like what skills to learn, where to bash, and how to rank up would be present in CHELP. There'd also be a list of cartels to join if he chooses to focus on trade, and there's the Serenwilde Elite Guard if he wants to do combat advancement (and the An'taithe could become the Serenwilde OOC combat thing). If he wants to get to know Lusternia's divine and have a religious lifestyle, there are orders. He could now be guildless if he wants to, so why join a guild? The guilds/factions could now become smaller divisions focusing on the non-administrative aspects of the commune and have their own principles - which is what we already have now. Unfortunately, each guild requires a good amount of maintenance now since newbies join it immediately by choosing a class, and there's just too many guilds for the amount of people we have playing now. In Serenwilde, I'm imagining adoption of the big guilds could work so long as lore stays in some class-specific clan. Moondancers and Serenguard, for example can begin to accept members from the Shofangi, Spiritsingers and Hartstone. Guild Leader is removed, and only Guild Admin is retained, with just Secretaries and Undersecretaries (secretary can absorb security like secretary of combat, and undersec can absorb protector). All classes would have a class specific clan to place all their scrolls now, and then the big guilds could beginreworking their own lore/advancement to adapt to the advancement of guildless people/commune advancement (which will be the one focused on helping newbie survive) and the absorption of other class lore. I'll repeat again that commune councils should be voted by everyone due to the presence of guildless people now. Then from Moondancers the name could change into maybe Spiritkeepers, then Serenguard become Wildeguard just to reflect the newness of the mixed principles taken from other guilds. Actual advancement tasks within the two merged guilds could actually be the same, so long as the underlying principles in doing them differs. So guilds no longer have to help a newbie survive, but are lore-boosters within the commune. And I'm suggesting that the lore directions for Serenwilde now could be MD and SG lore inclined to begin with. I guess each guild's lore should be divided in two or three now, like in Moondancers we could divide it into Maiden, Mother and Crone if we're going for three main factions or Waxing and Waning for just two. Classhalls will remain dependent on membership in Class-Clan, so secretaries from both new factions can help maintain their own classhalls. Ambassador ministry could begin accepting input from different GAs now for the commune advancement of newbies.
Comments
A minor aside and maybe I missed it in any of the pages - but isn't this new system not even approved yet by Estarra? I thought this thread was to see how people liked the idea in general. Not "hey, we are actually doing this at somepoint"
I didn't answer because I'm not as passionately tied to staying with the guild system as some others are. Sorry I didn't make that clear. At the end of the day, if we do change, I will adept towards the path I see best for this.
But if you think you're going to stand there and declare, "My guild is so unique and special that the only possible solution is to keep us exactly the same; deal with it," not only are you wrong, you're going to lose. It's arrogant, egotistical, and as has been pointed out, there are lots of other guilds who have deep lore that exemplifies what this game is all about (not just my own). If this proposal by the admin, which is still in its infant stages, is the direction the game must go, then it must go that way, and we will all, even us decaders who have devoted a significant portion of our real lives to making this game memorable and leaving actual, permanent marks on it, have to accept that. And we will move forward, taking what we already have and building something even greater with it.
Why look at this as a bad thing, instead of as an opportunity for characters to change, grow, have new rp added to them? If you're really about the rp, like I am, this can be good. I already have a bunch of ideas. Trying not to get too excited about it, as, not confirmed this will happen. Just take some time to think about the possibilities.
If the goal is to make guilds not look so empty (and by that attract/keep new players) then you have to consider:
Will these people saying "no, this is a stupid idea" leave the game and not come back? The combat overhaul pushed some people away (Is this number big, I have no idea. maybe-maybe not). There is no doubt in my mind that if this guild overhaul does happen, that it will make people quit the game. It will be up to the admins to decide if the numbers of people quitting vs the possible of others staying/coming/etc is worth it.
What will happen to clans deeded to guilds?
Ironically, one of the turning points for me in going from absolutely opposed to the idea to being a tacit supporter was when I realized that this discussion mirrors nearly exactly what I face every day in my vocation. It's eerie, really.