Yeah, Bull has a lot of potential and it could be really cool to explore that. Though... I should say I do have a soft spot in my heart for the idea of channeling rage to summon bull by borderline swearing at him. >_>
I suppose my other thought on the matter is that no matter the costs and work involved, all purchases for guilds have an unwritten disclaimer that the admin have the final say on everything.
While we don't always get what we want, they try go give us something cool that fits.
What I see in the post from Azus is that the Shofangi are a part of Serenwilde that has come home, an example of why its okay to help outsiders sometimes, an irreplaceable aspect of our ancient history. I suppose the other extension here is that if it was the Bull Cult that taught the Kephera the monk ways, then they could also be a, kind of, "parent" school to the Tahtetso and whatever Hallifax gets. Also, there is a potential interaction with the Serenguard here, because depending on the timeline, would the Bull Cult preceed the Serenguard?
This isn't that surprising. We always highly suspected that the moonblade weapon originated in Serenwilde with the Moonblade family/cult, and then was introduced to to the kephera when they went to what sounded suspiciously like the Undervault.
@Azus, I understand your love of the kephera. It's the same thing I have with finks. But the thing that really frustrated me about the Shofangi was the internal hostilities between those who liked the Bull cult and those who liked kepheran culture.
The question I have always asked, is, why isn't there a middle ground? Why are the Moonblades 'weird warriors' and not monks? Kephera do not hold the monopoly on being monks, as evidenced by illithoid, Tosha and Scorpion. It is plausible that the Moonblades always were monks, and then they went to the UV and were like 'Hey, look, these dudes are monks too, lets totally join up with them and help fight the illithoid.' And then the two group learnt from each other were improved from this sharing. I don't know the exact nature of the revalations, but I doubt that the kepherans learnt all their monkhood from the Moonblades. Maybe they were mostly unarmed and staff monks?
This doesn't invalidate the kephera, it just soulds like it adds in a shared history that, if anything, ties the kephera closer to the Serenwilde, cause we had Serenwilders in contact with them way back (even though the Serenwilders with the kephera were not still in contact with the surface)
@Everiine and @Saran I've always understood The Vision to have final say over what lore is canonised and changed, but given that I personally purchased and personally designed every part of this artifact (bar, of course, the unexpected additions), that Someone Important would work -with- me to implement the parts of The Vision that They wanted to express, or at -least- do me the courtesy of letting me know the nature of the changes They wanted to make. It's the most basic form of both customer service and community management, and a poor reward for my work.
@Saran Bull definitely does have a lot to explore, but that's because he is, for all intents and purposes, a completely new addition to Shofangi. Shofangi/Bull/His Cult, unfortunately, are a very replaceable part of Seren history - they were dying out in ancient Seren times because Stag and Moon were far more popular, and when they left, they were utterly forgotten, and even their burial sites were hidden.
@Qistrel I've never understood the reason for the divide, myself. The only lore we have tells us that the Shofangi monks came from UV on the orders of Zenobia to teach Serenwilde their ways, and that the kephera were inspired by fae and Hart, and renamed themselves in their honour. It's right there in our HELP SHOFANGI - we adopted a fae name and aspired to the grace of Hart. No Bull to be found.
Inalienable, I thought, that the basis for Shofangi is kepheran thought. Unlikely, according to all my (apparently useless) sources that Bull was deeply involved, especially given Bull's representation (which I understand has been drastically altered) in the game so far.
@All The situation is salvagable. It devalues -five- years of kepheran racial roleplay, seemingly retcons a douchebag spirit into a surprisingly caring one, and changes the focus of the guild from communion to one-up-manship, but is salvagable. The language surrounding the changes will endure - there's no reason to change it.
Shofangi being a Serenwilde guild all along robs us, and Seren, of much needed perspective, and lessens the value of kephera, kepheran history and kepheran ideas drastically. It can work, and will definitely artificially insert Bull into the guild, but I don't think it will solve anything. They will remain 'weird warriors' because their skills and ideas are based on deviations of Serenguard, they will be Seren, but Other, because their Spirit is related to Seren, but not actually tied to Seren, they will have a different perspective, but it will be hollow, being just a warped reflection of original Bull Cult perspective, which is now Seren anyway.
99% of the artifact is terrific, mind you. I think that needs to be said. 75% of the unexpected changes provide a means for us to connect far more closely to Keph as She was. I never considered it an option, and it was included, gratis, as a thank you for waiting so long for it to be delivered. The mini-event in which it was delivered even honoured me personally as being responsible for the Shofangi's resurgence. Even if I keep forgetting how to turn it on, I do love the artifact, and almost all of the content it provides, and @Lisaera was very patient and understanding during the development phase.
------ I continue to be affronted that in the four years of my being the sole developer of Shofangi that I need to radically alter everything I've done simply because nobody with The Vision wanted to work with me, choosing instead to ignore Shofangi for, again, eight years. Years are a very long time. Eight of them is ridiculous.
I'm not quite sure why you got it in your head that kepherans are supposed to be the main focus of the guild, though. I'm not even in the Nekotai, and that impression came through loud and clear years ago re: Illithoids. The Nekotai do have a connection to them, but it's more of an insular guild thing and not supposed to be the main focus. I know that you personally have a huge thing for kepherans and kepheran roleplay, but it has always felt to me as if you were kind of wishfully forcing that onto the guild.
This sounds more like a friendly little pushback saying, "Okay, okay. Hold on here. The actual lore doesn't quite work that way."
@Xenthos the focus of the guild is communion and discipline; knowing yourself and mastering yourself, connecting to the world around you and the world within you and all those sorts of things, to evade a long description. The only Shofangi lore that existed was kepheran lore, and I, being kephera, have expanded that to create a stable platform of roleplay and identity from which to reach for the other side of Shofangi that I see - the Seren side, which was never realised.
It can be difficult, observing Azus, to determine where racial roleplay ends and guild roleplay begins, because as a character, Azus is Queen and Khan, always, and hardly sees a difference between the roles. As a player, I know that the only input kephera have in the guild is that they are (or were!) the original source. As Shofangi had no identity and few clear teachings, I felt the best thing to do would be to establish the base, and help those ideas and ideals evolve naturally towards the Serenwilde, to organically blend the two cultures into a satisfying whole, rather than artificially jam them into one another.
But it was known from the outset that Kepherans were not the source of Shofangi (or Illithoid the source of Nekotai) skills. They were passing along the teachings of other sects. This was laid out in explicit detail. My understanding is that Bull was not really fleshed out much (unlike Scorpion), but that doesn't change that the lore stated Kepherans were conveying other knowledge.
This means that any lore the administration adds for Shofangi must acknowledge Bull. To do otherwise would be to rewrite the world's history (including past events, etc).
According to the founding members I spoke to, Bull made an appearance at the founding, but the kephera were the teachers. That doesn't indicate that Bull was the source. Since Bull wasn't used for Shofangi again, and no lore existed to say that kephera were merely relaying information, I have to disagree that it was obvious that Bull was the core of Shofangi.
Bull definitely does have a lot to explore, but that's because he is, for all intents and purposes, a completely new addition to Shofangi. Shofangi/Bull/His Cult, unfortunately, are a very replaceable part of Seren history - they were dying out in ancient Seren times because Stag and Moon were far more popular, and when they left, they were utterly forgotten, and even their burial sites were hidden.
That seems to imply that an even earlier Seren connection to the UV occurred, like that's where they migrated. Where else would the keph have gotten Bull teachings? It makes me wonder if there's an elfen enclave somewhere down there we haven't discovered yet. Either way, it does seem to imply a deeper connection between Seren and the kephera than Zenobia on a whim just saying "go play nice with the kids upstairs". There was a reason for it. Something Bull culture gave that enriched kephera culture, and Z remembered and wanted to give back.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Yeah, it seems like at any point since the release of the guild a patron could have gently redirected the lore of the guild if it was going in the "wrong" direction. Given some kind of heads up that what Azus was doing wasn't necessarily in line with the vision. It's enormously frustrating when you're given next to nothing to work with, make great efforts to expand and solidify your guild's RP, and then get told you were going down a blind alley all along. If this new lore was part of the vision all along, why wasn't it made clear from the beginning, or made discoverable sooner, or hinted at by the guild and commune patrons? @Azus, I sure don't know the full extent of this situation and I may be making unfair assumptions, but keep in mind that even if some historical points you tried to claim are now invalidated, the RP you've been performing all this time still happened. Unless Someone animates Zenobia and comes up to tell you personally that the meditations and hive manse and exercises were all non-canon, you've definitely enriched the guild and racial RP.
According to the founding members I spoke to, Bull made an appearance at the founding, but the kephera were the teachers. That doesn't indicate that Bull was the source. Since Bull wasn't used for Shofangi again, and no lore existed to say that kephera were merely relaying information, I have to disagree that it was obvious that Bull was the core of Shofangi.
Here's an event post that jibes with what both guild tutors said when they first came to the Basin (events post 129): In Glomdoring, a solemn Madame Yoraghu reminded the Nekotai that their fighting arts were not illithoid in origin, and confided that the real origin of their skills, with whom the illithoid struck a treaty, was now in trouble, because the master cenobite sent to help them - Mmagkigogotl - had finally failed in his efforts due to psionic attacks upon his mind.
I can't really help it if some of your guild founders wrote out what they were told / decided not to pass it along, but that doesn't make it any less fact. It's been this way from the start. Tahtetso were directly Kepheran taught, Ninjakari were directly Illithoid taught, and the others were based on other sects.
Also: Whatever happened with events newspost 203? That one seems to explicitly talk about Bull and Shofangi being linked; they even found an altar to Bull.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
@Everiine and @Saran I've always understood The Vision to have final say over what lore is canonised and changed, but given that I personally purchased and personally designed every part of this artifact (bar, of course, the unexpected additions), that Someone Important would work -with- me to implement the parts of The Vision that They wanted to express, or at -least- do me the courtesy of letting me know the nature of the changes They wanted to make. It's the most basic form of both customer service and community management, and a poor reward for my work.
------ I continue to be affronted that in the four years of my being the sole developer of Shofangi that I need to radically alter everything I've done simply because nobody with The Vision wanted to work with me, choosing instead to ignore Shofangi for, again, eight years. Years are a very long time. Eight of them is ridiculous.
To the first point: again, let me show you sometime the quest I almost singlehandedly designed for the Serenguard. You can compare it to the Fiabelhie quest we got. I know, personally, how bad it sucks. I know exactly how you feel in that. But that's the risk we take whenever we want to design something that big and overarching.
As for the second, I don't have an answer for that.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
@Daraius I believe the issue is that the guild got kinda dumped into the game without much behind it, through a combination of low player numbers, lore deletions by players, and perhaps some inactive/busy admin it's kinda come to this point.
We were told at the beginning in various forum posts that our guild was based around Bull. Hence some of the skill descriptions, because the creating players wanted a rager/berserker guild. I think it's also why Nejii or whoever used Mongolian as the basis for the language used because there were thoughts of Mongolian Hordes or something on top of making them a bit othered.
I guess I also just feel that there has been a very strong rejection of Bull. Not all members of the Shofangi seem to oppose him as vehemently as others but for some reason I have memories of being told that people have been removed from leadership for being pro-Bull.
I suppose the question for @Azus is... Given how vocally anti-Bull you have been would you have actually accepted any of these changes had you been given the option to veto or modify them?
Also, the reason the admin incorporate stuff like this, as has been mentioned, is to nudge people back onto the "right path" for their guild. They also do it to try and surprise us and give us lore gifts, they're not going to talk about everything they do with us so it doesn't matter how much effort you put in, you should never expect to get anything you ask for in relation to a guild or commune exactly as you asked for it.
I never understood the anti-Bull sentiment. I remember trying to make the argument that we didn't know enough about Bull to be able to say that he 'didn't care'. What if he was down in the UV somewhere locked in eternal struggle with something really bad? And we kept calling him up with the altar. Of course he would be grumpy about it.
And just because he's now inextricably linked to the guild's founding (though I would argue he always was and trying to remove him was a bit silly), it doesn't mean all the kepheran rp falls away. The kephera did bring the teachings back to us. We should be grateful to them for that, and continue to practice the things about their culture that are good. Your meditations were always fun, and you should keep that up.
@Xenthos Events post 203 only says that the altar was discovered near our guildhall, and that eels similar to UV eels lived in there. The eels are interesting, but are listed as being unexplained, so any explanation using them is unconfirmed. Given the designs for the ancient Seren altar were completely fae in origin for some reason and the spirit of Nimailt was dead for long ages before Shofangi were released, I don't agree that it's the clinching evidence of kepheran cultists you think it is.
For a guild with no actual record of being involved with Bull, the presence of an ancient Seren shrine, while being an interesting historical curiosity, isn't relevant to the guild.
In reference to the illithoid post; it's common knowledge ( I think?) that illithoid stole kata from kephera, and that Nekotai specifically learned a new way to use them from Scorpion. Kephera are their original source.
@Saran Yes, absolutely. My problem with adding Bull is that he isn't relevant, and isn't part of the guild (even if he was meant to be, that just isn't what happened), and suddenly making him both of those things would be to just tack him onto the side at the cost of the actual roleplay. It wasn't worth the effort, when, I felt, the kephera provided far more interesting roleplay and far more real idealistic connections with the forest. Shofangi deserved better than that and so does Bull. Working with administration to make Bull not only more palatable, but more relevant, would have been a challenge, but I would rather have worked on a challenge I knew would have results than spending all this time on what feels like nothing for no reason.
@Daraius I really appreciate that. I've put a lot of time and effort into not only Shofangi, but kepheran roleplay too, and this has been a pretty heavy hit to both bodies of work, for what feels like no good reason. Lisaera has been lovely, so I definitely feel that it was a Higher Power.
@Everiine Does this mean I'm one of the cool lorecrafters now?
You keep saying there is no record of a connection to Bull, and that the Bull quests are irrelevant, yet I've actually told you in-game stuff about Bull and the early days of the Shofangi, and even compared him to White Hart who also tends to expect us to look after ourselves. Plus, Nimailt is called Moonblade, and it isn't because she wielded rapiers in honour of Moon. She virtually says 'my people went to the undervault and never came back'. The altar quest was specifically put in to add Shofangi lore, every grave in the burial mounds was linked to a guild and Nimailt was put there to link the Shofangi back into Serenwilde. And you have actual skills in your skillset that make reference to Bull. He's not being added or tacked on, or suddenly made a part of the guild. He's always been there, he was at the founding, we know the admin wanted the link. I've said it many times. It always felt like you just didn't want to listen to anything that went against what you wanted. I'm sorry if this come off as annoyed or attacky. I'm just tired of repeating myself.
The Shofangi could have done similar things to the Nekotai, they just didn't and kind of got left behind, and records of the early stuff were lost. And now it's finally being caught up, and the links being explained and defined more, and I think it's really awesome. And again, it doesn't mean kephera rp is suddenly invalid. Unless I've missed something, the artifact doesn't say who taught whom what, just confirms that the Moonblades and kephera interacted. I'm not sure why this invalidates kephera. Because they maybe aren't the sole orginators of kata?
It's not common knowledge that the illithoid stole kata from the kephera. It's what many of the kephera say, but there is a lot of stuff saying other things, plus we have to fit in Scorpion and Tosha. Maybe there were multiple origins, maybe the kephera and illthioid developed tandem kata traditions as the fought each other and developed counters to the enemy attack forms. We many never know the truth.
TLDR: Bull is relevant, kephera are relevant, this is isn't coming out of nowhere.
@Xenthos Events post 203 only says that the altar was discovered near our guildhall, and that eels similar to UV eels lived in there. The eels are interesting, but are listed as being unexplained, so any explanation using them is unconfirmed. Given the designs for the ancient Seren altar were completely fae in origin for some reason and the spirit of Nimailt was dead for long ages before Shofangi were released, I don't agree that it's the clinching evidence of kepheran cultists you think it is.
For a guild with no actual record of being involved with Bull, the presence of an ancient Seren shrine, while being an interesting historical curiosity, isn't relevant to the guild.
In reference to the illithoid post; it's common knowledge ( I think?) that illithoid stole kata from kephera, and that Nekotai specifically learned a new way to use them from Scorpion. Kephera are their original source.
Take a few steps back from what you're clinging to. You're seriously writing on the forums stating that the administration wasted a ton of time coding in an event to add additional rooms, some quest details, etc. for no reason other than "to add some eels to Serenwilde".
No. Nobody does stuff like that. They went out of their way to give you some idea that Bull was part of the guild's roleplay, and you've intentionally ignored it / thrown it away because it didn't fit your viewpoint. Now you're sitting here saying that they've never corrected you, even though they did.
Also: You're wrong on the last part. Nekotai did not "learn a new way to use them from Scorpion". They learned their entire fighting style from the illithoid... who were training them in the way of Scorpion's monks. Scorpion Caverns had not been discovered by that point. We were informed directly that the teachings were coming from a third party, with whom they had an agreement. They were not the Illithoid's fighting style whatsoever. Plus, we know that kata doesn't originate with kepherans because surface dwellers have it (Scorpion Cavern monks, Tosha monks, and now via this discussion even the old-style Bull monks!). That's another bit of information that you have in mind that just does not seem to be accurate according to game lore.
PS: Why would kepherans have skills referencing bulls?! They live underground. They'd never even seen a bull. That right there should be a clue.
There's also the name Shofa which is a fae word (per the original discussions on the forums), which in "common" varies between deerhorn, moonblade, etc. I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread that the Kephera don't have a language and something about the fact that they never needed one (being psionic communicators). If it's a word the Kephera used, then the word Shofa, at least, might actually be part of an ancient Fae dialect that the Cult actually used, if not all of the words and phrases that the guild uses.
Just in case people aren't aware, the quest being referenced revolves around a series of cairns which give visions of ancestors for each of the Serenwilde guilds. With the one who is very clearly intended to be the shofangi ancestor talking about the bull cult, this then leads into a further quest where you summon Bull at his altar... which appears to be directly below the Shofangi guild hall. All of this is also five years old at this point so the implication of the connection, at the very least, has been there quite a while just waiting for players to build on it.
@Xenthos Uh? I didn't say that at all. I said that the eels were the only, tenuous, connection to the Undervault, and that all of the content was unrelated to Shofangi, or at least, what had survived of Shofangi, and was instead a Serenwilde lore point.
That illithoid learned kata from kephera is part of the learning messages for that skill. It should therefore be common knowledge for monks. Ninjakari learned to use their broken chains as weapons, to the best of my understanding. I don't know Nekotai lore; I've never played a Nekotai, but if Ninjakari simply learned their specialisation, Nekotai would by necessity come from an alternative source. It doesn't matter whether they learned from Scorpion or her cult; they derived their understanding of kata from the kephera in the Undervault, because they learned kata there before they broke free, and that original method was altered or supplanted by Scorpion style.
I can't work with lore that hasn't been recorded. @Qistrel, you told me some things only recently, after years of receiving no information. I appreciate it, and I wish that I'd been given that information when I asked founding Shofangi about it years ago, or when I requested a lore release to revive the lost lore.
Ultimately, I don't believe the founding goals of Shofangi are as important as the lore that the Shofangi has actually developed, and that's at the heart of my concern. I don't care if the premonk clan wanted berserkers, because they didn't actually make berserkers - they didn't make much of anything at all. I'm willing to use Bull, but I'm annoyed at the way it was reintroduced, as I had been negotiating for his revision into something more appropriate.
@Xenthos Shofangi nature warders, all kepheran, wear headdresses with the image of Bull on them, did you know? Hive Khementen maintains a museum of upworld oddities. It contains the only, if warped, images of upworld animals, portrayed in the UV. The eyes of the animals are rendered as compound and insectoid, in this museum and on those headdresses, because the kephera apparently had never seen a regular, squidgey eyeball before, only heard of them through stories. Their lack of understanding of upworld biology, combined with the fact that the only place Bull has been mentioned (until now, obviously) is ancient, pre-guild Serenwilde, suggested to me that the Bull-cult was a developing culture that nobody ever actually developed. Along with stories, legends, boasts and misinterpretations, it would be very, very easy to name things in honour of Bull, especially as Shofangi changed over time, an idea supported, I feel, by the complete omission of Bull in the account of our founding in HELP SHOFANGI in favour of Hart.
So, Bull-Cult was a Seren history thing that was being revived by kepheran-trained monks that canonically aspire to Hart.
Yes, it's been eight years. I do not know what you as a player are aware of but from what I've heard there have been times where players have just up and deleted everything, so it is entirely not fair to gripe about older players not having rp for you.
I mean, damn... Kalodan, Shorlen, and a few others spent a good year or two writing lore for the Hartstone... It has all been effectively deleted, instead being replaced by someone else's "Vision" for the guild multiple times over.
You complain about the Admin not coming in to fix things, and yet what was the end result of them doing at least two small lore releases for the Shofangi?
They put effort into what they released and not only did the guild not incorporate the lore, there was plans to hold rp sessions where the guild would cut off the lore that the admin provided...
There's also the name Shofa which is a fae word (per the original discussions on the forums), which in "common" varies between deerhorn, moonblade, etc. I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread that the Kephera don't have a language and something about the fact that they never needed one (being psionic communicators). If it's a word the Kephera used, then the word Shofa, at least, might actually be part of an ancient Fae dialect that the Cult actually used, if not all of the words and phrases that the guild uses.
Sorry, I didn't see this before bed!
'shofa' is a fae word referring to Hart's beauty and grace, which we renamed our weapons for (again, Hart, not Bull). Tahtetso, according to their HELPFILE descends from a kepheran root word. They not only have historical artifacts that feature writing, but their Hives and ancient capitol have libraries and offices full of writing implements. Shofangi guild lore indicates that our words, titles and so forth are kepheran words. -That- much has survived the years. There is evidence of a long history of writing, and we have verbal harmony mantras. The idea that mantras and their vibrations have been used to focus on ideas isn't new, and the idea that these evolved into ways to express and focus on more complicated expressions isn't new either.
If administration would like to change that, it will upend closer to six or seven years or so of Shofangi tradition, and I'd take a kepheran psychic language in exchange, or a hivechannel that would continue to exist independant of Zenobia.
@Azus, I think you've really gotten to the point where you're defending your own personal roleplay and trying to force that onto your guild.
This thread started with a post someone had written up which did incorporate Bull into the teachings of the guild and I believe you came along later and "corrected" them. Yes, I understand you have been working on the Kepheran lore for four years now, however, the connection of Bull to the Shofangi through the Nimailt quests precedes your characters creation. Azus cannot have personally lived in a time where this wasn't known about.
I have to ask, how many times has someone tried to incorporate Bull into shofangi? How many times have you or another "corrected" them? As you have pointed out bulls are present in npc designs, while others have pointed out their presence in your abilities.
You're the one that pointed out that the Kephera have art depicting surface creatures but no knowledge the difference between their eyes. I would suggest the more logical explanation is not that they have not seen a "squidey eye", considering they would have at least encountered Illithoid, but that those creatures were described to them.
i.e The Bull Cult went to the Undervault, met the Kephera, perhaps taught them the common language of the land and described some of the peculiarities of the surface world. If the Bull Cult didn't stay around for long then the cult might not have seen the art the Kephera produced. It seems more likely that one would make the mistake from a description that they've heard rather than by encountering the animals themselves.
Every Serenwilde guild has some for of Spirit (or group of them) that provides guidance in one way or another. The Moonies have Moon, HS have the White Hart, the Serenguard have their spirits, and the Spiritsingers have the Ancestors.
The Shofangi have Bull, they have their connection to the ancient Bull cult. They represent part of Serenwildes history and the Bull cult, this aspect of the guild is irreplaceable and if it were taken it would be cutting a piece out of Serenwilde again. (even more sadly, because it never got the opportunity to be fully revived)
Comments
While we don't always get what we want, they try go give us something cool that fits.
What I see in the post from Azus is that the Shofangi are a part of Serenwilde that has come home, an example of why its okay to help outsiders sometimes, an irreplaceable aspect of our ancient history.
I suppose the other extension here is that if it was the Bull Cult that taught the Kephera the monk ways, then they could also be a, kind of, "parent" school to the Tahtetso and whatever Hallifax gets.
Also, there is a potential interaction with the Serenguard here, because depending on the timeline, would the Bull Cult preceed the Serenguard?
@Azus, I understand your love of the kephera. It's the same thing I have with finks. But the thing that really frustrated me about the Shofangi was the internal hostilities between those who liked the Bull cult and those who liked kepheran culture.
The question I have always asked, is, why isn't there a middle ground? Why are the Moonblades 'weird warriors' and not monks? Kephera do not hold the monopoly on being monks, as evidenced by illithoid, Tosha and Scorpion. It is plausible that the Moonblades always were monks, and then they went to the UV and were like 'Hey, look, these dudes are monks too, lets totally join up with them and help fight the illithoid.' And then the two group learnt from each other were improved from this sharing. I don't know the exact nature of the revalations, but I doubt that the kepherans learnt all their monkhood from the Moonblades. Maybe they were mostly unarmed and staff monks?
This doesn't invalidate the kephera, it just soulds like it adds in a shared history that, if anything, ties the kephera closer to the Serenwilde, cause we had Serenwilders in contact with them way back (even though the Serenwilders with the kephera were not still in contact with the surface)
@Saran Bull definitely does have a lot to explore, but that's because he is, for all intents and purposes, a completely new addition to Shofangi. Shofangi/Bull/His Cult, unfortunately, are a very replaceable part of Seren history - they were dying out in ancient Seren times because Stag and Moon were far more popular, and when they left, they were utterly forgotten, and even their burial sites were hidden.
@Qistrel I've never understood the reason for the divide, myself. The only lore we have tells us that the Shofangi monks came from UV on the orders of Zenobia to teach Serenwilde their ways, and that the kephera were inspired by fae and Hart, and renamed themselves in their honour. It's right there in our HELP SHOFANGI - we adopted a fae name and aspired to the grace of Hart. No Bull to be found.
Inalienable, I thought, that the basis for Shofangi is kepheran thought. Unlikely, according to all my (apparently useless) sources that Bull was deeply involved, especially given Bull's representation (which I understand has been drastically altered) in the game so far.
@All The situation is salvagable. It devalues -five- years of kepheran racial roleplay, seemingly retcons a douchebag spirit into a surprisingly caring one, and changes the focus of the guild from communion to one-up-manship, but is salvagable. The language surrounding the changes will endure - there's no reason to change it.
Shofangi being a Serenwilde guild all along robs us, and Seren, of much needed perspective, and lessens the value of kephera, kepheran history and kepheran ideas drastically. It can work, and will definitely artificially insert Bull into the guild, but I don't think it will solve anything. They will remain 'weird warriors' because their skills and ideas are based on deviations of Serenguard, they will be Seren, but Other, because their Spirit is related to Seren, but not actually tied to Seren, they will have a different perspective, but it will be hollow, being just a warped reflection of original Bull Cult perspective, which is now Seren anyway.
99% of the artifact is terrific, mind you. I think that needs to be said. 75% of the unexpected changes provide a means for us to connect far more closely to Keph as She was. I never considered it an option, and it was included, gratis, as a thank you for waiting so long for it to be delivered. The mini-event in which it was delivered even honoured me personally as being responsible for the Shofangi's resurgence. Even if I keep forgetting how to turn it on, I do love the artifact, and almost all of the content it provides, and @Lisaera was very patient and understanding during the development phase.
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I continue to be affronted that in the four years of my being the sole developer of Shofangi that I need to radically alter everything I've done simply because nobody with The Vision wanted to work with me, choosing instead to ignore Shofangi for, again, eight years. Years are a very long time. Eight of them is ridiculous.
This sounds more like a friendly little pushback saying, "Okay, okay. Hold on here. The actual lore doesn't quite work that way."
sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
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It can be difficult, observing Azus, to determine where racial roleplay ends and guild roleplay begins, because as a character, Azus is Queen and Khan, always, and hardly sees a difference between the roles. As a player, I know that the only input kephera have in the guild is that they are (or were!) the original source. As Shofangi had no identity and few clear teachings, I felt the best thing to do would be to establish the base, and help those ideas and ideals evolve naturally towards the Serenwilde, to organically blend the two cultures into a satisfying whole, rather than artificially jam them into one another.
This means that any lore the administration adds for Shofangi must acknowledge Bull. To do otherwise would be to rewrite the world's history (including past events, etc).
According to the founding members I spoke to, Bull made an appearance at the founding, but the kephera were the teachers. That doesn't indicate that Bull was the source. Since Bull wasn't used for Shofangi again, and no lore existed to say that kephera were merely relaying information, I have to disagree that it was obvious that Bull was the core of Shofangi.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
In Glomdoring, a solemn Madame Yoraghu reminded the Nekotai that their fighting arts were not illithoid in origin, and confided that the real
origin of their skills, with whom the illithoid struck a treaty, was now in trouble, because the master cenobite sent to help them - Mmagkigogotl
- had finally failed in his efforts due to psionic attacks upon his mind.
I can't really help it if some of your guild founders wrote out what they were told / decided not to pass it along, but that doesn't make it any less fact. It's been this way from the start. Tahtetso were directly Kepheran taught, Ninjakari were directly Illithoid taught, and the others were based on other sects.
As for the second, I don't have an answer for that.
We were told at the beginning in various forum posts that our guild was based around Bull. Hence some of the skill descriptions, because the creating players wanted a rager/berserker guild. I think it's also why Nejii or whoever used Mongolian as the basis for the language used because there were thoughts of Mongolian Hordes or something on top of making them a bit othered.
I guess I also just feel that there has been a very strong rejection of Bull. Not all members of the Shofangi seem to oppose him as vehemently as others but for some reason I have memories of being told that people have been removed from leadership for being pro-Bull.
I suppose the question for @Azus is...
Given how vocally anti-Bull you have been would you have actually accepted any of these changes had you been given the option to veto or modify them?
Also, the reason the admin incorporate stuff like this, as has been mentioned, is to nudge people back onto the "right path" for their guild. They also do it to try and surprise us and give us lore gifts, they're not going to talk about everything they do with us so it doesn't matter how much effort you put in, you should never expect to get anything you ask for in relation to a guild or commune exactly as you asked for it.
And just because he's now inextricably linked to the guild's founding (though I would argue he always was and trying to remove him was a bit silly), it doesn't mean all the kepheran rp falls away. The kephera did bring the teachings back to us. We should be grateful to them for that, and continue to practice the things about their culture that are good. Your meditations were always fun, and you should keep that up.
For a guild with no actual record of being involved with Bull, the presence of an ancient Seren shrine, while being an interesting historical curiosity, isn't relevant to the guild.
In reference to the illithoid post; it's common knowledge ( I think?) that illithoid stole kata from kephera, and that Nekotai specifically learned a new way to use them from Scorpion. Kephera are their original source.
@Saran Yes, absolutely. My problem with adding Bull is that he isn't relevant, and isn't part of the guild (even if he was meant to be, that just isn't what happened), and suddenly making him both of those things would be to just tack him onto the side at the cost of the actual roleplay. It wasn't worth the effort, when, I felt, the kephera provided far more interesting roleplay and far more real idealistic connections with the forest. Shofangi deserved better than that and so does Bull. Working with administration to make Bull not only more palatable, but more relevant, would have been a challenge, but I would rather have worked on a challenge I knew would have results than spending all this time on what feels like nothing for no reason.
@Daraius I really appreciate that. I've put a lot of time and effort into not only Shofangi, but kepheran roleplay too, and this has been a pretty heavy hit to both bodies of work, for what feels like no good reason. Lisaera has been lovely, so I definitely feel that it was a Higher Power.
@Everiine Does this mean I'm one of the cool lorecrafters now?
The Shofangi could have done similar things to the Nekotai, they just didn't and kind of got left behind, and records of the early stuff were lost. And now it's finally being caught up, and the links being explained and defined more, and I think it's really awesome. And again, it doesn't mean kephera rp is suddenly invalid. Unless I've missed something, the artifact doesn't say who taught whom what, just confirms that the Moonblades and kephera interacted. I'm not sure why this invalidates kephera. Because they maybe aren't the sole orginators of kata?
It's not common knowledge that the illithoid stole kata from the kephera. It's what many of the kephera say, but there is a lot of stuff saying other things, plus we have to fit in Scorpion and Tosha. Maybe there were multiple origins, maybe the kephera and illthioid developed tandem kata traditions as the fought each other and developed counters to the enemy attack forms. We many never know the truth.
TLDR: Bull is relevant, kephera are relevant, this is isn't coming out of nowhere.
No. Nobody does stuff like that. They went out of their way to give you some idea that Bull was part of the guild's roleplay, and you've intentionally ignored it / thrown it away because it didn't fit your viewpoint. Now you're sitting here saying that they've never corrected you, even though they did.
Also: You're wrong on the last part. Nekotai did not "learn a new way to use them from Scorpion". They learned their entire fighting style from the illithoid... who were training them in the way of Scorpion's monks. Scorpion Caverns had not been discovered by that point. We were informed directly that the teachings were coming from a third party, with whom they had an agreement. They were not the Illithoid's fighting style whatsoever. Plus, we know that kata doesn't originate with kepherans because surface dwellers have it (Scorpion Cavern monks, Tosha monks, and now via this discussion even the old-style Bull monks!). That's another bit of information that you have in mind that just does not seem to be accurate according to game lore.
PS: Why would kepherans have skills referencing bulls?! They live underground. They'd never even seen a bull. That right there should be a clue.
That illithoid learned kata from kephera is part of the learning messages for that skill. It should therefore be common knowledge for monks. Ninjakari learned to use their broken chains as weapons, to the best of my understanding. I don't know Nekotai lore; I've never played a Nekotai, but if Ninjakari simply learned their specialisation, Nekotai would by necessity come from an alternative source. It doesn't matter whether they learned from Scorpion or her cult; they derived their understanding of kata from the kephera in the Undervault, because they learned kata there before they broke free, and that original method was altered or supplanted by Scorpion style.
I can't work with lore that hasn't been recorded. @Qistrel, you told me some things only recently, after years of receiving no information. I appreciate it, and I wish that I'd been given that information when I asked founding Shofangi about it years ago, or when I requested a lore release to revive the lost lore.
Ultimately, I don't believe the founding goals of Shofangi are as important as the lore that the Shofangi has actually developed, and that's at the heart of my concern. I don't care if the premonk clan wanted berserkers, because they didn't actually make berserkers - they didn't make much of anything at all. I'm willing to use Bull, but I'm annoyed at the way it was reintroduced, as I had been negotiating for his revision into something more appropriate.
@Xenthos Shofangi nature warders, all kepheran, wear headdresses with the image of Bull on them, did you know? Hive Khementen maintains a museum of upworld oddities. It contains the only, if warped, images of upworld animals, portrayed in the UV. The eyes of the animals are rendered as compound and insectoid, in this museum and on those headdresses, because the kephera apparently had never seen a regular, squidgey eyeball before, only heard of them through stories. Their lack of understanding of upworld biology, combined with the fact that the only place Bull has been mentioned (until now, obviously) is ancient, pre-guild Serenwilde, suggested to me that the Bull-cult was a developing culture that nobody ever actually developed. Along with stories, legends, boasts and misinterpretations, it would be very, very easy to name things in honour of Bull, especially as Shofangi changed over time, an idea supported, I feel, by the complete omission of Bull in the account of our founding in HELP SHOFANGI in favour of Hart.
So, Bull-Cult was a Seren history thing that was being revived by kepheran-trained monks that canonically aspire to Hart.
That was and remains one of my arguments. It's been eight years.
This thread started with a post someone had written up which did incorporate Bull into the teachings of the guild and I believe you came along later and "corrected" them. Yes, I understand you have been working on the Kepheran lore for four years now, however, the connection of Bull to the Shofangi through the Nimailt quests precedes your characters creation. Azus cannot have personally lived in a time where this wasn't known about.
I have to ask, how many times has someone tried to incorporate Bull into shofangi? How many times have you or another "corrected" them? As you have pointed out bulls are present in npc designs, while others have pointed out their presence in your abilities.
You're the one that pointed out that the Kephera have art depicting surface creatures but no knowledge the difference between their eyes. I would suggest the more logical explanation is not that they have not seen a "squidey eye", considering they would have at least encountered Illithoid, but that those creatures were described to them.
i.e The Bull Cult went to the Undervault, met the Kephera, perhaps taught them the common language of the land and described some of the peculiarities of the surface world. If the Bull Cult didn't stay around for long then the cult might not have seen the art the Kephera produced. It seems more likely that one would make the mistake from a description that they've heard rather than by encountering the animals themselves.
Every Serenwilde guild has some for of Spirit (or group of them) that provides guidance in one way or another. The Moonies have Moon, HS have the White Hart, the Serenguard have their spirits, and the Spiritsingers have the Ancestors.
The Shofangi have Bull, they have their connection to the ancient Bull cult. They represent part of Serenwildes history and the Bull cult, this aspect of the guild is irreplaceable and if it were taken it would be cutting a piece out of Serenwilde again. (even more sadly, because it never got the opportunity to be fully revived)