That sounds extraordinarily like something the admin would have done
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
IIRC the commune monk guilds were told that they had to be linked to the Astral sphere of their commune for very little reason except because. I think even the bull-named skills were either renamed or added very late in an attempt to make the guild more bullish. So if bull feels tacked on, it's because he was.
@Qistrel looks like I have a copy of the original skill list in my gmail, (I sent it to someone for wiki/xiel pages purposes)
The Bull skill names have definitely been there since launch. The other words could probably be explained to be Fae (if they aren't already), given @Svana's point that the Kephera don't actually have a spoken language.
Though it does remind me of the discussions way back then.
Like as far as the titles and all of that goes, I think Nejii and maybe Kalo were taking things from Mongolian (and mangling them a bit of course) because they wanted to cultivate a brutal concept within the guild. Though I'm fairly sure that within a couple weeks in the rush to get things "set up" everyone defaulted to...
"Here is the influencing path, the combat path, and the scholar path"
Yeah, I think I remember a discussion about Mongolian.
Everyone uses the argument 'kephera don't have a language', which I'm sure was said somewhere in the lore...except, all the hives have names, and the queens and kings and other named mobs all have, like, actual names with fairly consistent nomenclature, surely those things didn't just come out of nowhere? Even if you're psychic, surely you still have names for stuff? IDK.
What I meant about the bull skills, is that I remember more Bull stuff being added very close towards the end of 'development', like less than a month before the guild was released (My memory has been known to be inaccurate sometimes, however.)
It depends on what kind of psychic though, if they have just mental speech then yeah they'd need a language for that, if it's not though then they might not need names for things. (This is really hard to conceptualise I thing just because of how foreign that is as a concept)
A somnolent dryad says, "Nimailt is the last of the Moonblades. Her people lived here within Serenwilde Forest, long, long ago."
A somnolent dryad says, "One day, Nimailt's people began to receive visions and dreams. They constantly heard whispers from a source unknown - from something deep beneath the earth."
A somnolent dryad says, "In an effort to discover the reason for the visions and whispers, they all left, but Nimailt remained to preserve the knowledge of Spirit Bull. She died without knowing what had become of her people."
A somnolent dryad says, "She remains here, to this day, waiting. Waiting for what? I don't know."
The kephera have written engravings, they have books, they have scrolls, they have tablets, they have libraries. They have a language. They invented the harmony mantras, which are spoken aloud.
Kephera have a language. It's just way more convenient to use telepathy on a general basis.
I did the Bull statue quest again (which I used to do every day back in the day), to remind myself of exactly what he says, and I think @Azus is completely misinterpreting Bull's words and actions. Nowhere do I find any evidence that Bull doesn't care about Nimault Moonblade. He didn't abandon Serenwilde, he is obviously up to something important, to the degree that he sent nearly all of his followers off on this quest. The problem is not with Bull, it's with the fact that this quest has never been followed up on and explained. He by no means tells you to go away but says 'Do not wake me again too soon.' He is a grumpy old cattle spirit, that is just a thing grumpy old people say, but don't mean.
I think throwing Bull completely out is a mistake. If you want to add in other spirits, that's cool, but at least keep him as part of some sort of Serenguard-like group of spirits. Sure, he was tacked on for little reason way back, but he's been around and part of the Shofangi for so long, that changing it now would remove some really cool stuff. He's White Hart's bro. Be down with the gumpy old Bull, guys.
I did the Bull statue quest again (which I used to do every day back in the day), to remind myself of exactly what he says, and I think @Azus is completely misinterpreting Bull's words and actions. Nowhere do I find any evidence that Bull doesn't care about Nimault Moonblade. He didn't abandon Serenwilde, he is obviously up to something important, to the degree that he sent nearly all of his followers off on this quest. The problem is not with Bull, it's with the fact that this quest has never been followed up on and explained. He by no means tells you to go away but says 'Do not wake me again too soon.' He is a grumpy old cattle spirit, that is just a thing grumpy old people say, but don't mean.
I think throwing Bull completely out is a mistake. If you want to add in other spirits, that's cool, but at least keep him as part of some sort of Serenguard-like group of spirits. Sure, he was tacked on for little reason way back, but he's been around and part of the Shofangi for so long, that changing it now would remove some really cool stuff. He's White Hart's bro. Be down with the gumpy old Bull, guys.
The other thing is that, depending on what he's doing, every time he's summoned he might have to stop whatever it is he's doing to come do whatever. If, say, he's fighting Soulless emanations, or squashing some of Manteekan's nasty fae spirits, under hoof every time he turns up/is summoned it lets them gain a bit more ground.
That, of course, is a hypothetical, but I agree with @Qistrel. @Azus is being a little harsh on poor Old Bull. (At least ICly). While it might have been tacked on thoughtlessly, or hastily, I think you could easily expand/add to it and make him something more substantial and a cool facet of Shofangi life.
Just my 10c, though
With an exasperated sigh, you say, "One moment please, I'm threatening a muffin in a box!"
1
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
So, he's kind of like Atrus at the beginning of Riven--he can't help you much and hurries you along, but it's because he has to keep writing, or Riven falls apart.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I feel it should also be remembered that Bull is not a part of Serenwilde the same way that the White Hart and Mother Moon are.
He chose to protect the forest, he is an outsider that came to help the forest. This in itself can be a great metaphor for the relationship between the Shofangi and the Serenwilde. Everyone else has some form of very firm bond with the forest. (even the Serenguard with their Spirits still have the connection to Stag and Moon)
The closest the Shofangi get is the brother of the White Hart. But they don't need more than that, they have chosen to protect this forest.
Sure, he left, but why has never been really explored and I feel like that's super important.
IDK, to me I kinda think that... strangely, a way that the Shofangi can bring themsselves more "in" to Serenwilde is potentially by exploring more about how they are different.
Being raging berserkers in a place that trends more towards the Serene, having such a foreign interaction with their Great Spirit. The Kepheran past seems like from this thread it should just be a past, but it will always mark them as different.
I guess my thoughts are that if you establish the unique identity that can mesh with Serenwilde well... naturally then in turn the other guilds will know how to develop their relationship with the Shofangi
I can kinda see the Hartstone being brotherly but also at arms length due to the rage for example.
I disagree that the Kephera have a functional, speakable language. Just because they have a written analogue to a language doesn't mean they have the phonetic structure to make that language verbal.
The written word can be translated to thought without the need for speech, and that is an easy explanation for why Kephera have books, but no speakable language. They recorded their words not to be pronounced, but to be thought as direct emotion or mental incantation to accomplish some goal, be it education, recording historical events or ritual.
Yes, they may have verbalized some of these thoughts to create the harmony mantras, but so too do Mysrai's followers verbalize Ae (which no mortal can truly understand) to accomplish any of a variety of things. That doesn't mean we can converse with eachother in Ae, or title eachother in Ae. The language of creation isn't a language in that sense.
Trying to make something into something that it isn't just creates a bunch of headache, confusion and inconsistencies. I can respect the Kephera verbalizing certain emotions and concepts to accomplish some goal, as from all I've seen they are words of power that work with both mind and spirit to accomplish something useful. However, trying to claim that they have a spoken, usable phonetic language would be tantamount to Svana using Ae for every little thing. It would be folly.
I disagree that the Kephera have a functional, speakable language. Just because they have a written analogue to a language doesn't mean they have the phonetic structure to make that language verbal.
The written word can be translated to thought without the need for speech, and that is an easy explanation for why Kephera have books, but no speakable language. They recorded their words not to be pronounced, but to be thought as direct emotion or mental incantation to accomplish some goal, be it education, recording historical events or ritual.
Yes, they may have verbalized some of these thoughts to create the harmony mantras, but so too do Mysrai's followers verbalize Ae (which no mortal can truly understand) to accomplish any of a variety of things. That doesn't mean we can converse with eachother in Ae, or title eachother in Ae. The language of creation isn't a language in that sense.
Trying to make something into something that it isn't just creates a bunch of headache, confusion and inconsistencies. I can respect the Kephera verbalizing certain emotions and concepts to accomplish some goal, as from all I've seen they are words of power that work with both mind and spirit to accomplish something useful. However, trying to claim that they have a spoken, usable phonetic language would be tantamount to Svana using Ae for every little thing. It would be folly.
Mantra's irl also vary between just being a sound to groupings of actual words. Like, the syllable Om has a decently lengthy entry on it.
Though I thought the issue with Ae was also that mortals were incapable of discerning the subtle differences between say... Lyreth and Lyreth, or Lyreth and Lyreth, oh and lets not forget the very specific difference between Lyreth and Lyreth. :P As such they're also incapable of pronouncing it correctly.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but no one should be persecuted for pursuing their own form of RP, be it kepheran language or other. Personally I rather enjoy the various titles, ranks and kepheran words that have infiltrated the Shofangi. Considering the titles and kepheran glossary in the Shofangi guild scrolls have not been removed or revoked by the admin as foolish jibberish, it shows there's at least some sort of ooc permission to develop in that direction.
To me, whether they had a language or not in the past is a moot point. I enjoy the extra flvour the Shofangi kepheran dialect gives and have been pestering @Azus to release a more expansive dictionary. There is no enforcement within Shofangi for using kepheran except as titles which are hard coded to the guild ranks and a few more like Gosi, Kusi or Gojei that we use internally.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but no one should be persecuted for pursuing their own form of RP, be it kepheran language or other. Personally I rather enjoy the various titles, ranks and kepheran words that have infiltrated the Shofangi. Considering the titles and kepheran glossary in the Shofangi guild scrolls have not been removed or revoked by the admin as foolish jibberish, it shows there's at least some sort of ooc permission to develop in that direction.
To me, whether they had a language or not in the past is a moot point. I enjoy the extra flvour the Shofangi kepheran dialect gives and have been pestering @Azus to release a more expansive dictionary. There is no enforcement within Shofangi for using kepheran except as titles which are hard coded to the guild ranks and a few more like Gosi, Kusi or Gojei that we use internally.
I don't think it was ever specified, though... Shofaran was a guild title from memory (gr5?) and Shofa is a Fae word (or at least to my knowledge Shofa and Shofangi were intended to be per Estarra). If you take that, it could be that the whole line of titles is actually some fae dialect.
In terms of pursuing your own rp, I think what most of the people here are looking for is what's going to be the experience that draws them to the guild the most and the things that they feel keep them from joining. I feel that the hard-core kepheran rp can have it's place but that, that might be in perhaps less primary aspects. A clan for players that want to pursue that, or a sub path of some form within the guild.
I guess the primary concern is that if the Kepheran stuff is causing issues for people because of like... racial exclusivity (intended or no) then it's an issue.
Also, as far as "ooc permission" goes... tbh I'd be wary of that, you'll probably find that the admin don't go over all the scrolls and the like.
Maybe it's not actually kepheran, it's secretly...hyfae.
Dun dun dun.
But yes, AFIK, shofa and shofangi are fae words, and completely unrelated to the kepheran words used for everything else in the guild. And the Altar of Bull quest demonstrates that shofa, or at least shofa under the name of moonblades, existed in the Serenwilde long before we had monks. (How exactly they were used back then, I don't know.)
There's all sorts of discrepancies in Lusternia, but sometimes it's just that half of them haven't ever been explained. For instance, how was the stage in Gaudiguch named after the Minstrel Tutor before we even had Minstrels?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
There's all sorts of discrepancies in Lusternia, but sometimes it's just that half of them haven't ever been explained. For instance, how was the stage in Gaudiguch named after the Minstrel Tutor before we even had Minstrels?
This one's easy: They named the stage after a well-known musician, who then later consented to teach pupils the art of mangling catgut to make it wail even after death Music.
There was a mortal musician who was named after the voice of an elder god? >.<
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
There was a mortal musician who was named after the voice of an elder god? >.<
Correction: There was a musician Elder who Gaudiguch kinda dug the vibes of, that they named their stage after, who later showed up and was impressed enough to teach them to sing.
That's the great thing about Gaudiguch. Any and all continuity errors can be attributed to Illuminati scheming. Hallifax can do the same thing with temporal anomalies, thankfully. It's the others that seem to have more trouble covering for them, I think.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
That's the great thing about Gaudiguch. Any and all continuity errors can be attributed to Illuminati scheming. Hallifax can do the same thing with temporal anomalies, thankfully. It's the others that seem to have more trouble covering for them, I think.
The Illuminati do not SCHEME. That's a vicious rumour made up by Hallifaxian propaganda-mongers.
As far as the stage in Gaudiguch having the name of Gullagumbah before the Minstrels turned up? I always assumed it was Kalikai's influence. A nod to a lost friend, since there's a few bits of anecdotal evidence to suggest the Two of Them got along well.
With an exasperated sigh, you say, "One moment please, I'm threatening a muffin in a box!"
But it was there before She showed up, wasn't it? O.o
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
My original point is this: sometimes things don't always make sense or mistakes happen. Just roll with it and unless it's game breaking, ignore it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Maybe it's not actually kepheran, it's secretly...hyfae.
Dun dun dun.
But yes, AFIK, shofa and shofangi are fae words, and completely unrelated to the kepheran words used for everything else in the guild. And the Altar of Bull quest demonstrates that shofa, or at least shofa under the name of moonblades, existed in the Serenwilde long before we had monks. (How exactly they were used back then, I don't know.)
What if that's where Bull's followers went? What if at least part of their journey was to the Undervault?
I don't know if it's been completely impossible given lore and time lines, but perhaps the followers of Bull in some way taught the Kephera about Shofa and the like, then centuries later the Kephera taught Serenwilde the skills that are a lost part of the forests history?
Comments
This explains a great deal.
Everyone uses the argument 'kephera don't have a language', which I'm sure was said somewhere in the lore...except, all the hives have names, and the queens and kings and other named mobs all have, like, actual names with fairly consistent nomenclature, surely those things didn't just come out of nowhere? Even if you're psychic, surely you still have names for stuff? IDK.
What I meant about the bull skills, is that I remember more Bull stuff being added very close towards the end of 'development', like less than a month before the guild was released (My memory has been known to be inaccurate sometimes, however.)
Serenwilde Forest, long, long ago."
A somnolent dryad says, "One day, Nimailt's people began to receive visions and dreams. They
constantly heard whispers from a source unknown - from something deep beneath the earth."
A somnolent dryad says, "In an effort to discover the reason for the visions and whispers, they all
left, but Nimailt remained to preserve the knowledge of Spirit Bull. She died without knowing what
had become of her people."
A somnolent dryad says, "She remains here, to this day, waiting. Waiting for what? I don't know."
Kephera have a language. It's just way more convenient to use telepathy on a general basis.
I think throwing Bull completely out is a mistake. If you want to add in other spirits, that's cool, but at least keep him as part of some sort of Serenguard-like group of spirits. Sure, he was tacked on for little reason way back, but he's been around and part of the Shofangi for so long, that changing it now would remove some really cool stuff. He's White Hart's bro. Be down with the gumpy old Bull, guys.
The other thing is that, depending on what he's doing, every time he's summoned he might have to stop whatever it is he's doing to come do whatever. If, say, he's fighting Soulless emanations, or squashing some of Manteekan's nasty fae spirits, under hoof every time he turns up/is summoned it lets them gain a bit more ground.
That, of course, is a hypothetical, but I agree with @Qistrel. @Azus is being a little harsh on poor Old Bull. (At least ICly). While it might have been tacked on thoughtlessly, or hastily, I think you could easily expand/add to it and make him something more substantial and a cool facet of Shofangi life.
Just my 10c, though
To me, whether they had a language or not in the past is a moot point. I enjoy the extra flvour the Shofangi kepheran dialect gives and have been pestering @Azus to release a more expansive dictionary. There is no enforcement within Shofangi for using kepheran except as titles which are hard coded to the guild ranks and a few more like Gosi, Kusi or Gojei that we use internally.
Dun dun dun.
But yes, AFIK, shofa and shofangi are fae words, and completely unrelated to the kepheran words used for everything else in the guild. And the Altar of Bull quest demonstrates that shofa, or at least shofa under the name of moonblades, existed in the Serenwilde long before we had monks. (How exactly they were used back then, I don't know.)
The Illuminati do not SCHEME. That's a vicious rumour made up by Hallifaxian propaganda-mongers.
As far as the stage in Gaudiguch having the name of Gullagumbah before the Minstrels turned up? I always assumed it was Kalikai's influence. A nod to a lost friend, since there's a few bits of anecdotal evidence to suggest the Two of Them got along well.