Shofangi Lore (Everybody Keeps Saying We Haven't Got Any)

Xeria

I heartily disagree. When the shofangi were first made, we had lore and everything. Except that everyone failed to leave proper records. Or if there were records, they were removed and eradicated. Since then, I've made sure that there are proper records.

The shofangi as it is -now- DOES have lore for RP purposes. It's not as expansive or comprehensive as the other guilds but there is enough to give the shofangi a sense of purpose. A player is welcome to develop his or her RP. Just try to keep it within these boundaries.

Credits go out to @azus (for teaching Xeria about the kephera and the Kepheran Philosophy of harmony and the Kiyicel) and @tandrin (for teaching xeria about Brother bull.)

All I've done, is to codify everything, write it down and teach it (*cough indoctrinate *cough*) Ejei as they come through the shofangi. None of 'em stay because there's nothing after novicehood. We've not gotten very far, because a) personality clash b) personality clash c) i don't think anyone can actually agree on what the Kiyicel are. (explanation below) d) it's very difficult to catch active members to do RP with. e) most novices who walk through the shofangi don't seem interested in RP. MOST. that is. So I give 'em the quick version to be on the safe side.

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So for an explanation of who we are, here's an actual GHELP Scroll I've written for novices covering basic lore in summary.

We are the Kui en-Wilde.

Kui in Kephera simply means "Clan". "en" translates loosely as "in favor of". "Wilde" refers to the Serenwilde Forest. We are the Clan of the forest, informally called "the Kui" or "kui". We practice the martial traiditon of Shofangi which draws its influences from The Kephera and Old Man bull as well as training us in the use of the shofa to become skilled Shofaran (knife master).

However we a clan, The Kui, not simply because we practice shofangi with the aim of becoming skilled shofaran (knife masters). If it does, it does not make for a strong clan. 

A strong clan is built on the strength of the bonds between its members. We are The Kui. We are not a clan with bonds that are founded only familial ties. Instead our bonds are based on mutual Respect and Discipline. Our strength however does not lie soley in the strength of our abilities with the shofa, but in a tradition of teachings that balances body, heart and mind that considers them as a whole.

From Old Man Bull, we learn the precepts of Justice, Honor, Valor and Duty. He teaches us to do what we must. To perform our duties unflinching without complaint or hope of reward. He also encourages to strive to be the best versions of ourselves.

We do not worship Old Man Bull, but rather, we allow ourselves to be guided by his principles. An individual is free to revere Old Man Bull as their personal spirit if they wish, but this type of reverence is not part of the lore we teach. It is a personal thing.

From the Kephera we learn strength through Unity. Each of us has a part to play in maintaining the strength of the Kui. The Kephera who gifted us with the Lam (our monk skills. GHELP EJEILAM) impart to us the Kepheran Philosophy of Harmony on which the Harmonic mantras are based. 

From this, The kui learns to strive towards balance, to not favor the strength of the heart or mind or body over another. An ideal member of the Kui would have all three, gaining the wisdom of spirit to use them to contribute to the strength and maintanence of Kui.The Kui nutured you and now having gained the strength to do so, you nuture the Kui, - thus the Kui thrives. 

The Mind --Mun-- concerns itself with wisdom. It is the path of the sage. 

It will teach you the lore of the Basin and encourage a thirst for learning so that you will a Taisi (A Great Sage)

You will empower the Kui with wisdom and guard its history.

The Heart -Uti- concerns itself with discipline. It is the path of the mediator.

It will teach you patience, service and how to ultilize your influence so that you will be understanding and just.

You will use your experience to guide the Kui

The Body --Phet-- concerns itself with physical Strength. It is the path of the Protector

You will train yourself in the myraid usage of the shofa so that you may become a skilled shofaran.

You will use your skills to protect the Kui, defend the forest and aid the Kephera of the Undervault.

Thorough our long lives we train each of these strengths by walking the Kiyicel. The Paths of learning. Each path is a journey, not to a physical destination but to a mental one. We expect of ourselves excellence in deed and in word. We must continousely prove that we are a worthy Kui by always ensuring that we act in the manner that does not reflect badly on ourselves as a Kui and as an individual. 

We do not value any one of these above the other. Simply becomming skilled in the use of the shofa only makes us Shofaran. That is a skilled knife master. While wisdom by itself does it survive longer than yourself if it is not taught to the next generation. Without the skill to defend and understand it. It is useless. This is why we value education, wisdom taught empowers us with tools needed to strive towards excellence of self.

Education of the Kui is an important part of the duties that each of the Kui will undertake. You may in time wish to take another into your care. They will be your protege (Gojei) and you will be their Mentor (Kusi).

The strongest bond in the Kui is the one between Kusi and Gojei. The Kusi is tasked with mentoring the Gojei. He or she is to guide their Gojei along the path of learning, ensuring that the Gojei gains the wisdom to need to progress along their chosen path.

The Gojei is the student, the Protege. A Gojei chooses a kusi when they are ready to begin their journey along the path of learning. Gojei, your "job" is to develop the necessary wisdom to excel in under any

circumstances and in any situation. Be guided by your Kusi, they have trod the same path as you have

The bond between Kusi and Gojei is one of trust. The Kusi guides and the Gojei learns. It is the most sacred bond found in The Kui. It cannot not be profaned or defiled. It is not a bond of Family, friend, lover or parent. Without wisdom, there can be no growth and it weakens the Kui as a whole.

This is a decision that cannot be undertaken lightly. We the Kui do not look favourably upon those who profane this relationship. While as a Gojei, you may have several Kusi over the course of your life. We expect you to take each on seriously. Going through a sucession of Gojei or Kusi without reason will result in severe consequences.

It can be said that we are a school of practical wisdom. We believe in proving our wisdom through action. 

Remember together WE ARE THE KUI. 

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That is the lore of the shofangi at the moment.

It can be said of the shofangi that they are a school of practical wisdom. And their current motto, as Xeria teaches it "We do what we Must"

Enlightment is reached when one of the Kui proves themselves through actions to be an all round capable awesome person (who Can Do Anything And Everything Without Ruffling Other Peoples Feathers! /sardonic) through the Kiyicel.

The Kiyicel are quite simply the paths of Enlightenment. By following these paths, your character would gain the knowledge and abilities to become an all round awesome player of lusternia. Thus becoming The Master Of All. 

See, the problem is, from my point of view - it's a little difficult to agree on, much less write a series of tasks that would take a player's character through this process.  It often ends up with a lotta discussion and not much done. Everyone has differing ideas for different reasons, often with strong convictions behind it. So. not much gets done. 

Discuss. (New players always welcome. No power grabs please.That's the last thing we need)

Shaddus

/powergrabs

Saran

As a clarification, no... the shofangi didn't have lore when they were first made. I remember being part of the organising clan and designing the lower half of the hall (the elemental rooms, balcony, and entrance. As a vague side note the balcony was intended to be locked to like gr3 rather than a hidden entrance and the leaders offices were going to be special exits),

 The titles were there because they vaguely sounded cool and the mongolian was chosen because... well everyone else had a language and this made them distinct.

There were very loose concepts of where to go, one for example was that the shofangi become almost berserkers.

The lore was developed after that, after we made our guild hall.

Maligorn

Saran said:

There were very loose concepts of where to go, one for example was that the shofangi become almost berserkers.

That sounds really cool. Something Lusternia lacks imo, and Shofangi are poised to do something like that. Especially fitting in with the brutality of Serenwilde. 8->

EDIT: Oh, I read that as if you said they almost became berserkers, not that they become almost-berserkers. Still, I think that it would be rewarding to bring this facet to the fore, especially considering one of the guild emotes I saw once.

Saran

It's kinda both, I think differences of opinion lead to them going down the harmony route (plus maybe harmony itself). 

But yeah, the suggestion was to be all wild bull and ragey and the like, I mean seriously... their ultimate ability is to put themselves into a rage and if you look at their weapon, it has what... eight potential cutting edges and four points to stab with.

Cyndarin

Just what we need. Another gibberish language. Crow tongue wasn't enough for you people!

Xeria

@Celina for standard shofangi lore, the entire "gibberish" language is not needed! 

Just the few words that make it into the shofangi Lore as terminology. :P

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It's the difference between fate and destiny, both contain similar concepts, but from different perspectives.

"the way" doesn't have the same impact as "The Kiyicel" which means "The paths of learning" or "the Paths of enlightenment" depending on the context in which it is used. 

True you can say "Clan", however it again doesn't have the same impact as "kui". Kui shows our kepheran roots and shows that we are -not- just a clan. We're a clan with ties to the kephera. We are the Kui en-Wilde or the Clan of the forest. 

So to the rest of lusternia. Call it flavor text if you want, it does have its place in shofangi lore. 

We're just...undergoing a expansion problem (as listed above). Right now, we're working on building a complete frame work on which to hang our Lore/role play/philosophical questions on. Then we can move on to the detailed questions the offer opportunities for role play. (There's always room for people who like to debate and more importantly -write scrolls about it and stick it in the library- Please, adhere to the parts about harmony, stay within serenwilde Lore and the shofangi kepheran ties?)

e.g:

"How do I reconcile my hatred of the City of light, (Tahteso) with my duty towards the undervault?"
"How do I become a berserker? What does it mean to be a berserker, in a spiritual sense?"
"the leadership doesn't condone berserker-ism, but I am one. How do I solve this situation"
Etc. etc. 

Eritheyl

It was always my hope that the Shofangi would somehow mirror what I understand to be the ways of the Tosha Monastery. The capability of being a bunch of raging, bloodthirsty, tear-your-limbs-off crazy people, but tempered with a dedication to harmony through self-improvement. Sure it's a little cookie cutter as far as monks and monk-byproducts go, but with kephera and Spirits and pixies and whatever else is available to be drawn on, it could be a thing with depth.

Saran

Could always go the vaugely reverse, encourage people to see bloodthirsty and rage filled as their true and default state while using the harmony concepts as a method for trying to bring them back under control. 

All the terminology, the kui, the kiyicel, all ultimately being control methods to direct their normally unbridled anger towards purposes beneficial to Serenwilde.

Xeria

I'm okay with either as role play options, but I don't think any of that should be the default state, though that sounds interesting to play for a combatant.

I envision a shofangi can who produce notable writers, great combatants and leaders. y'know the kind of org -you- want to join because you'll be taught and guided towards awesomeness. We are a school of practical wisdom. People who ask "Why?" then go out and find the answers to it. Write it down and stick it in the library.

So you can either choose to be a berserker character who uses  harmony concepts to control your rage or the opposite.

Daraius

I might have some irons in the fire vis-a-vis the Tosha monks. If I ever get a peep out of Quettle.  :-L

Saran

Xeria said:

I'm okay with either as role play options, but I don't think any of that should be the default state, though that sounds interesting to play for a combatant.

I envision a shofangi can who produce notable writers, great combatants and leaders. y'know the kind of org -you- want to join because you'll be taught and guided towards awesomeness. We are a school of practical wisdom. People who ask "Why?" then go out and find the answers to it. Write it down and stick it in the library.

So you can either choose to be a berserker character who uses  harmony concepts to control your rage or the opposite.

True, the only thing though... you've kinda described pretty much ever guild in the game(and well...most of the other iron realms). Every guild wants to raise great combatants, every guild wants to raise great leaders, every org wants to be the kind of org that people want to join.

Even in regards to becoming notable writers and learning practical wisdom... just within Serenwilde the Hartstone have mystic themes around them but they're very much about gathering and recording wisdom, I could see the Serenguard having an interest in investigating the world, perhaps more with a focus on threats to the forest though (inside and out), the Spiritsingers might create stories and fictions but the stories might just as easily be historic tales that carry deep meaning, the Moondancers might also want to devote time to gathering stories about the fae and the like. 

Players are going to want to become leaders, they're going to want to write books, perform plays, learn how to fight, etc, etc. They're just different ways to engage with the game, and guilds at their best are not raising say... a great leader... they're raising a great Shofangi\Researcher\Geomancer\etc who happens to also be a great leader.

Extending the permanent rage thing, you might find someone that fully plays that character whose homicidal tendencies have been bound and controlled through the kiyicel to the service of the Kui and the forest. The control the helps them in their goals and the goals of the Kui, perhaps as a leader or someone who extends the kiyicel by progressing to a teacher rather than student. 

Waffling now, but yeah... I would say your focus should be on shaping students into the best Shofangi as opposed to the Shofangi shaping people into a variety of other identities because... well yeah, it's something everyone can focus on and then it's boring.

Eritheyl

Saran said:

Could always go the vaugely reverse, encourage people to see bloodthirsty and rage filled as their true and default state while using the harmony concepts as a method for trying to bring them back under control.

That's exactly what I meant!

Xeria

I'm a little leery of the berserker concept as it is. It's based on bull and the way he fits into the shofangi lore isn't exactly explained fully, it's little too loose (oh, and credits again to @Azus for this). In my view it's leans towards physical violence, e.g Conan the barbarian-type berserker. Y'know? Blood-fury? This is great if you're looking to play a combat-type crazy character...not so great for those who are looking to play non-combatants. I don't want the Rp of all comers to be limited. 

So I supposed to cater to both types, The kepheran concepts of harmony could be taught as a way to distill a person's "essence" personality/wisdom into a deadly focused thing of calm fury and beauty. The "fury" could come from the serenwilde forest as it is now (Winter court) Making sense so far lusternia? (I hope I am). 

For the Kui en-Wilde enlightenment is a distillation of self.  the good is refined and the all bad boiled away. 

(like the stereotypical kung fu masters you see on tv of the yesteryears. Or if you're a little too young for that, think Kung Fu Panda on steroids).

A person is encouraged to refine himself into someone who's full of "fury" (potential for action) through the Kusi-gojei bond and the Kiyicel. This could be the shofangi's definition of "enlightenment".  Enlightenment is reached when you're perfect at everything, and I mean everything. So the concept of 'enlightenment' is seen as something within reach always, but in reality it's impossible to get there.

So if you want to be a violent berkser type, you enter the Kui, do your Ejei tasks, learn etc. Then the Kui, (if everything is working as it should) through the Gosi (Ejei sages, i.e Novice aides) Notice this and then subtly point you in the direction of the teachers who can help you refine your violent characteristics into something that can be channeled. etc.

So the lore of the Kui at its roots is simply a blending of The Winter Court Serenwilde  and the Kepheran culture. You get a little of each, spirits, harmony etc. 

It's a little cookie cutter, (and I have no idea if this will go down well IG, Politics you see) but it's a pretty logical framework, based on what we have now. I don't know how far I can go in inventing things or how to work with the admin on this, (Help?) but I think until we get updates on lore. This is what the shofangi can take and use.

p.s @Kay @Parua @Llewell @Gabriella @Azus @Tandrin @Xabre @Daera @Inzaias  @Fionn @Dueniad @Kazuko @Sawna

Discuss and leave your suggestions!

Shaddus

Xeria

@Llewell *bite* 

@Shofangi. Where de rest of y'all at? (sorry for the mangled accent. too much hollywood!)

Parua

@Xeria you have to capitalize names to actually ping people.

Eritheyl

Xeria said:

In my view it's leans towards physical violence, e.g Conan the barbarian-type berserker. Y'know? Blood-fury? This is great if you're looking to play a combat-type crazy character...not so great for those who are looking to play non-combatants. I don't want the Rp of all comers to be limited. 

You can be furious and physically violent without ever stepping a toe in the combatants' pond!

Xeria

Eritheyl said:

Xeria said:

In my view it's leans towards physical violence, e.g Conan the barbarian-type berserker. Y'know? Blood-fury? This is great if you're looking to play a combat-type crazy character...not so great for those who are looking to play non-combatants. I don't want the Rp of all comers to be limited. 

You can be furious and physically violent without ever stepping a toe in the combatants' pond!

True, for a character. That's permissible. Lore-wise, that's a little limited. Detaching the concept of "fury" from the physical and turning into an abstract concept to encompass both the physical, mental and heart, allows for a greater scope of role play. Plus it ties in neatly with the Kepheran influence. 

So depending on who your teacher is (Kusi) or how you want to play it, your character can be taught to be physically violent and to rouse him or herself into a berserker state. 

Here is an example. You play a tiny faeling who's always clumsy and inept. You join the kui because you hear that they teach those who don't possess alot of strength how to fight. You enter, you're observed, then you're taught harmony and our lore. Through a process of mentorship you're encouraged to become a berserker faeling. Tiny in statue but fearsome on the battle field. Filled with the bloodlust and battle rage. You kill and Kill and Kill until nothing's and no one is left. All learn to fear you, the fight stops when you walk into the battlefield.

Here's another example, you're a blood thirsty loboshigaru who has trouble controlling your bloodrage. The Kui teaches you the concepts of Harmony as an Ejei. Then you're paired with a Kusi who's calm in nature. He or she works with you to bring your rage under control. Then he or she will guide you towards what you want to learn. 

This process will involve plenty of one-to-one interactions with your Kusi. (your mentor). The Kui will judge your Kusi on how you perform. Always. So if you fuck up, your Kusi get is too. Ideally, your should feel great loyalty towards your Kusi. How your Kusi teaches you is depending on the individual. The catch is, once you pick and official mentor you're stuck with him or her for life. Even LONG after you outgrow the need for their tutelage . The individual who is Kusi has great latitude in how he or she wants to instruct his protege. It's considered very, very bad form to interfere beyond the usual (how do I get from a to z,? what's a shofa? etc.), The Kui judges the Kusi by the action's of his or her Gojei. If another of the Kui -HAS- to interfere the Kusi is judged as having failed his or her duties as well as the Gojei in question. 

OR if you' do not seek that kind of RP, you can choose to do it alone. Someone will keep a special eye on  you, Probably one of the upper ranks, monitor your progress and then point you towards the resources you need. Or Encourage you down certain paths. You CAN learn from someone without ever becoming a Gojei. Or several someones if you wish. 

Apart from physical berserkers, you could be Johndoe, The Furious Heart, renowned for his skills of persuasion and leadership. 

or Johndoe, MindFury of Steel

y'know for some bog-standard baseline examples.

So does this sound fun to anyone? (I'm looking at all of y'all @Shofangi. Or ping me via forum message. Or IG via message. Either way)

( p.s @Kay @Parua @Llewell @Gabriella @Azus @Tandrin @Xabre @Daera @Inzaias  @Fionn@Dueniad @Kazuko @Sawna )

Annick

I always pictured the Shofangi with a Samoan vibe like with the whole shofangi skill being like the Haka dance with a mix of like Louisiana voodoo with each of the different parts of harmony chants representing a different loa ancestor spirit

Enyalida

I totes have plans to ask for a haka emote for Seren >_>

Brona

Makes me want to roll an Alt. Sounds like a lot of fun to be had in the Shofangi.

Xeria

Baby steps @Annick and @Enyalida.

At present you can think of the Kui as the stereotypical shaolin monks on steriods. We're warriors, teachers, diplomats rolled up into one. (or we're supposed to be)

Saran

Xeria said:

Eritheyl said:

Xeria said:

In my view it's leans towards physical violence, e.g Conan the barbarian-type berserker. Y'know? Blood-fury? This is great if you're looking to play a combat-type crazy character...not so great for those who are looking to play non-combatants. I don't want the Rp of all comers to be limited. 

You can be furious and physically violent without ever stepping a toe in the combatants' pond!

True, for a character. That's permissible. Lore-wise, that's a little limited. Detaching the concept of "fury" from the physical and turning into an abstract concept to encompass both the physical, mental and heart, allows for a greater scope of role play. Plus it ties in neatly with the Kepheran influence. 

So depending on who your teacher is (Kusi) or how you want to play it, your character can be taught to be physically violent and to rouse him or herself into a berserker state. 

Here is an example. You play a tiny faeling who's always clumsy and inept. You join the kui because you hear that they teach those who don't possess alot of strength how to fight. You enter, you're observed, then you're taught harmony and our lore. Through a process of mentorship you're encouraged to become a berserker faeling. Tiny in statue but fearsome on the battle field. Filled with the bloodlust and battle rage. You kill and Kill and Kill until nothing's and no one is left. All learn to fear you, the fight stops when you walk into the battlefield.

Here's another example, you're a blood thirsty loboshigaru who has trouble controlling your bloodrage. The Kui teaches you the concepts of Harmony as an Ejei. Then you're paired with a Kusi who's calm in nature. He or she works with you to bring your rage under control. Then he or she will guide you towards what you want to learn. 

This process will involve plenty of one-to-one interactions with your Kusi. (your mentor). The Kui will judge your Kusi on how you perform. Always. So if you fuck up, your Kusi get is too. Ideally, your should feel great loyalty towards your Kusi. How your Kusi teaches you is depending on the individual. The catch is, once you pick and official mentor you're stuck with him or her for life. Even LONG after you outgrow the need for their tutelage . The individual who is Kusi has great latitude in how he or she wants to instruct his protege. It's considered very, very bad form to interfere beyond the usual (how do I get from a to z,? what's a shofa? etc.), The Kui judges the Kusi by the action's of his or her Gojei. If another of the Kui -HAS- to interfere the Kusi is judged as having failed his or her duties as well as the Gojei in question. 

OR if you' do not seek that kind of RP, you can choose to do it alone. Someone will keep a special eye on  you, Probably one of the upper ranks, monitor your progress and then point you towards the resources you need. Or Encourage you down certain paths. You CAN learn from someone without ever becoming a Gojei. Or several someones if you wish. 

Apart from physical berserkers, you could be Johndoe, The Furious Heart, renowned for his skills of persuasion and leadership. 

or Johndoe, MindFury of Steel

y'know for some bog-standard baseline examples.

So does this sound fun to anyone? (I'm looking at all of y'all @Shofangi. Or ping me via forum message. Or IG via message. Either way)

( p.s @Kay @Parua @Llewell @Gabriella @Azus @Tandrin @Xabre @Daera @Inzaias  @Fionn@Dueniad @Kazuko @Sawna )

Xeria said:

Baby steps @Annick and @Enyalida.

At present you can think of the Kui as the stereotypical shaolin monks on steriods. We're warriors, teachers, diplomats rolled up into one. (or we're supposed to be)

To be a bit blunt, that sounds like every guild. If you want to be a combatant they teach you to be a combatant, if you want to do something else they teach you to be something else. 

And well... how does your last description of the Kui significantly differ from the Tahtetso, I don't have experience in their guild so it's a rather honest question, they seem like they are a sect of monks who are focusing on harmony and purity through the lens of the light (perhaps more on the purity side, harmony as a path to draw you closer to the light, and even battle rage could merely be the path of Methrenton) while the potential Hallifax monks seem like they would again focus on harmony and purity through the lens of the collective (Harmony through the higher emotions, but of course one may engage in the lower emotion of rage in the protection of the collective from outsiders)

If you just take the last part "We're warriors, teachers, diplomats rolled up into one.", how do you feel that is significantly different from any other guild in the game? 

Obviously, due to Lusternia's nature what I am about to suggest mechanically couldn't exist. 

But realistically, I'd say socially, at least, the "leaders" of the communes are the Covens and the Groves, they are the voices of their great spirits and I would believe that their leaders in a story context would be most likely to represent the communes. Sure, the Monks might represent Serenwilde to the Kephera, to a degree, but I don't see why they would necessarily be diplomats. The more likely 'next" option to me would be the Spiritsingers. 

Similarly, every guild really is a teacher of their own lore to their students, but... ideally... the Druids and the Wiccans would be out teaching people about their Spirits and the like. The Hartstone likely sharing any ancient wisdom and lore they have retained, that is safe for people to know of course, the Spiritsingers sharing some of this though perhaps woven through song and story.

And by necessity every guild must raise warriors, the Hartstone are one with the forest, they fight as part of it for the Broken stone shows the Hartstone what can be lost and what can never be allowed to happen again. 

Not trying to be mean, I just feel like there could be more and that a focus on the simple question of "Why are we unique?" would help. 

Parua

Personally, I would love to see more to do with Bull, and perhaps a small handful of other Nature spirits, (maybe some of the lesser ones in the Totems skillset that don't get a whole lot of love, or others altogether that can be unique to Shofangi lore)

Communes are awesome in that they have the unique connection to these spiritual entities that I really believe are underutilized.

I feel that every single monk guild (aside from nekotai, maybe) are trying for the same sort of generic monk concept that I find, to be frank, to be quite boring. 

Shofangi have a great leg up in that their weapon can also be called moonblade or staghorn (deerknife? something like that) which ties back into the commune's two Great Spirits really nicely. Obviously Moon and Stag are the focus of the druids and wiccans respectively, but there's this wealth of other nature spirits that just don't see a whole lot of love, that I think the shofangi could and should use to flesh out their purpose and role in the forest.

@Xeria

Saran

@Parua I'd avoid using any of the other spirits from totems.

The only one that might have a link to Serenwilde is Horse. Squirrel and maybe Skunk make far more sense with Ackleberry. Wolf maybe but there's never been a strong link to Serenwilde (even though it would be amazing if the Hartstone were based around Wolf). Similarly, Snake, Groundhog, Trout, and Rock... well what do they come together as? 

Each Serenwilde guild already has at least one spirit, if you count the aspects and avatars, only the Shofangi have a single spirit. But how does that come together? how does adding more spirits to that mix improve Serenwilde as a whole? How does it improve the Shofangi? How will you deal with events that the admin might decide to run involving those spirits?

How would you approach say... Trouts creator returning after you've somehow incorporated them into your rp, only to find out that they are the sibling of Rivers awakener and so will be bound to Ackleberry forever?

It's just... problematic and that's before you consider what happened with the Nekotai.

Nott

Is it really that problematic? I mean, the Serenguard refer to other "spirits" besides Moon and Hart - they seem to be doing pretty fine. I think the concern about adding more spirits to the mix, or about spirit-x's Creator returning lends itself to paranoia. It shuts down any speculative and creative ideas out there. 

I definitely think @Parua is on to something. Commune monks look like they are meant to emphasize their respective spirit moreso than the kephera/illithoid tension (which isn't to say it goes away, but it seems to be more of a supportive role in defining their identity). 

Enyalida

Unfortunatly, the canon Bull lore is... one of those things that can be said about every guild: Steadfastness, Reliability (er, like... being reliably steadfast?), Justice, Protector (yeah, I know that doesn't fit the list.).

Saran

@Nott the Serenguard spirits from memory are not actually mentioned outside it, they are something completely invented by the guild, for the guild. That's different from taking the spirits from totems and claiming them. Prior to certain events Suns personality was not widely known, it was speculated that he's a bit selfish but that's all I remember. Later we found out exactly how messed up he is, it'd be sucky if you'd built up all this stuff and then it's torn away by an event. I'd also say that you are incorrect in regards to the connection to their spirit, @Azus has some strong complaints about bull from memory and the nekotai played a deeper connection to scorpion than they were "supposed" to have. Which ended up with like, a quest being edited to remove their hooks or distance them from the scorpion spirit or something. 

Saran

Being honest, there's also the possibility that any guild might not make sense because they're limited by the archetypes.

It's also entirely possible that monks might just not quite fit in Serenwilde and that the mechanical niche they represent would work better with a different theme. A rogue/ranger type comes to mind for some reason when I think about it, but with Bull and Harmony and all that, it doesn't seem like it would quite fit the Shofangi even though it could fit the forest. 

Saran

Enyalida said:

Unfortunatly, the canon Bull lore is... one of those things that can be said about every guild: Steadfastness, Reliability (er, like... being reliably steadfast?), Justice, Protector (yeah, I know that doesn't fit the list.).

There's a brutality to the Shofangi skill, Serenwilde trends towards very mystic and ethereal in my mind (as i've said before). But the Shofangi are stomping, grunting, flaying, tongue slicing, head slamming, killing machines. 

Like... it looks they they have a move where they impale you on their blades to grapple you, they crush peoples heads into their knees. They shove blades into your ribs and then throw you out of the room, possibly only to then charge straight at you and shove the blades back in again. 

Sure, actual combat might be different but that's a pretty badass image for the Shofangi.