There's the connection to Charune, and through him to the White Hart, and then through him to Serenwilde.
And for a while Bull was hanging out in Serenwilde with everyone, but then he disappeared for unknown reasons leaving behind the Bull Cult and he (maybe) hasn't returned since.
There's some more with the messages but it's been described as kinda a "here's a little bit now get lost"
I can't remember where I posted this in more depth, but as I mentioned, Bull being absent doesn't actually have to be a bad thing.
Bull could be out there being some kind of cosmic keystone preventing some great threat to nature, or just roaming around reality on some grand quest that reflects the duty of the Shofangi.
You could even write up him not being active with the guild as them being pathetic weenie kids and someone could lead a cleansing to bring a new age of brutality and rage in his name that pleases him.
Or perhaps he considers that the Shofangi should be self sufficient enough that they can survive without him coddling them like the other spirits do their guilds.
1
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
edited January 2015
If it helps, the Warrior Spirits don't live in the Serenwilde either, and aren't particularly attached to it. They don't make many real appearances, choosing to give their guidance from afar to the tribe of warriors that caught their interest and earned their respect. At least, that's who we explain the fact that, aside from the Wolverine in the collegium, there are no Aspects of the Warrior Spirits anywhere, and they don't seem to have an impact outside of the Serenguard lore.
EDIT: Of course, if Aspects of Jaguar, Eagle, and Wolverine are ever discovered, I will be ecstatic! *wink wink nudge nudge hint hint*
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
So, add interesting bits to it. That's how I would handle it.
This. So much this.
Look at what the Nekotai did with their totems. They took things from around the forest (Beetle, Wasp, Spider, and so on) and used it. Maybe the Shofangi can do the same and write stuff up. The -worst- that can happen is that admin who rp with them don't acknowledge it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Also I read the word "resolve" somewhere in the last couple of pages?
Why not have that as one of Bull's 'things'?
As in the traits of Bull that make up a good Shofangi: Rage and Resolve.
Such as from an example scroll found entirely in my head:
"Resolve: Once an action is decided on, it is to be taken. Bull stands firm against the tide, no matter the consequences, and so do the Shofangi, as his disciples. We are to be the rock that remains in place, even when those tides wash everything else away. We do not falter, or yield, or compromise. We are the Kui!
Rage: Bull does not pull his punches, and nor should you. Not just in combat, but in life itself. Give everything you set yourself to your greatest effort. There are no half-measures. If a thing is to be done, let it be done. Let any who are not with us stand aside or be trampled. We are the Kui!"
Or, something like that. It's a small tie-in, and kind of not-fleshed-out, but it's two thing that could 1) be attributed to bull, and 2) would let the shofangi carve themselves a sort of identity of their own as stubborn monks, who throw themselves at whatever they do like the proverbially bull at the gate.
The other thing is that by using those two examples/suggestions, or something like them, there's also potential tie-ins to Kepheran harmony.
With an exasperated sigh, you say, "One moment please, I'm threatening a muffin in a box!"
I don't know if it's been mentioned already. But there is an altar to bull in the Serenwilde, and you can still do a quest to summon him. He'll say something, but I don't really remember what. Probably due to the reasons Enyalida mentioned already (it's boring most likely).
I think that's the thing that some people are aware of but not happy about.
From memory and the discussions he's not summoned, all that we glean is the message and that he still exists somewhere. Though I wish the people that made these arguments would start talking on the thread
I used to do the statue quest over and over and over, and I always found it disappointing in that it hinted at cool things without actually revealing anything. But I'm not shofangi. Maybe they would get more out if it.
From my perspective, the weird incomprihesible keperan names and the emphasis on Undervault links makes the Shofangi feel like they don't really belong in the Serenwilde. If they ran around using bull names and revering bull instead they would seem a lot more like Serenwilders.
From my perspective, the weird incomprihesible keperan names and the emphasis on Undervault links makes the Shofangi feel like they don't really belong in the Serenwilde. If they ran around using bull names and revering bull instead they would seem a lot more like Serenwilders.
I didn't feel like clicking agree was quite enough.
I vehemently agree with this statement.
With an exasperated sigh, you say, "One moment please, I'm threatening a muffin in a box!"
From my perspective, the weird incomprihesible keperan names and the emphasis on Undervault links makes the Shofangi feel like they don't really belong in the Serenwilde. If they ran around using bull names and revering bull instead they would seem a lot more like Serenwilders.
To me, this is exactly what makes the Shofangi special. We are a part of the Serenwilde, but we are also apart from it. It's that separation that makes it one of the most unique guilds in the game. I don't see that it's necessarily to remove that.
Luenn tends to see things in more mercantile terms: We pay lip service to Bull, and in exchange we receive some of his powers, like Bullrage. In exchange for playing a support role to to commune, we get a place to stay and access to a nexus of power. These go to support our primary goal of defending the Undervault from the Illithoid.
I figure people will probably disagree with this though.
From my perspective, the weird incomprihesible keperan names and the emphasis on Undervault links makes the Shofangi feel like they don't really belong in the Serenwilde. If they ran around using bull names and revering bull instead they would seem a lot more like Serenwilders.
To me, this is exactly what makes the Shofangi special. We are a part of the Serenwilde, but we are also apart from it. It's that separation that makes it one of the most unique guilds in the game. I don't see that it's necessarily to remove that.
Luenn tends to see things in more mercantile terms: We pay lip service to Bull, and in exchange we receive some of his powers, like Bullrage. In exchange for playing a support role to to commune, we get a place to stay and access to a nexus of power. These go to support our primary goal of defending the Undervault from the Illithoid.
I figure people will probably disagree with this though.
The ur'Guard have an entire post in the Magnagoran news, dating way back to, like, 137 when the game first came out, about being seperate from the city in authority and no meeting of the Iron Council will ever decide what is right or wrong, valid or invalid in the guild, because we are an entirely sovereign, august entity who has sworn oaths to protect the city - we are not PART of the city.
That *IS* a very unique RP angle that you're suggesting for the Shofangi, but it's not *unique*, if you know what I mean.
The Tahtetso have the same feeling of "together but seperate" in the city, but ended up coming up with Lumosis to explain it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
From my perspective, the weird incomprihesible keperan names and the emphasis on Undervault links makes the Shofangi feel like they don't really belong in the Serenwilde. If they ran around using bull names and revering bull instead they would seem a lot more like Serenwilders.
To me, this is exactly what makes the Shofangi special. We are a part of the Serenwilde, but we are also apart from it. It's that separation that makes it one of the most unique guilds in the game. I don't see that it's necessarily to remove that.
Luenn tends to see things in more mercantile terms: We pay lip service to Bull, and in exchange we receive some of his powers, like Bullrage. In exchange for playing a support role to to commune, we get a place to stay and access to a nexus of power. These go to support our primary goal of defending the Undervault from the Illithoid.
I figure people will probably disagree with this though.
The ur'Guard have an entire post in the Magnagoran news, dating way back to, like, 137 when the game first came out, about being seperate from the city in authority and no meeting of the Iron Council will ever decide what is right or wrong, valid or invalid in the guild, because we are an entirely sovereign, august entity who has sworn oaths to protect the city - we are not PART of the city.
That *IS* a very unique RP angle that you're suggesting for the Shofangi, but it's not *unique*, if you know what I mean.
The Serenguard sorta have this. Their mandate doesn't come from the Moonhart Circle, and really, if the Moonhart Circle went all Grutina Oakvine or something, the Serenguard would have no qualms wiping them out.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
From my perspective, the weird incomprihesible keperan names and the emphasis on Undervault links makes the Shofangi feel like they don't really belong in the Serenwilde. If they ran around using bull names and revering bull instead they would seem a lot more like Serenwilders.
To me, this is exactly what makes the Shofangi special. We are a part of the Serenwilde, but we are also apart from it. It's that separation that makes it one of the most unique guilds in the game. I don't see that it's necessarily to remove that.
Luenn tends to see things in more mercantile terms: We pay lip service to Bull, and in exchange we receive some of his powers, like Bullrage. In exchange for playing a support role to to commune, we get a place to stay and access to a nexus of power. These go to support our primary goal of defending the Undervault from the Illithoid.
I figure people will probably disagree with this though.
The ur'Guard have an entire post in the Magnagoran news, dating way back to, like, 137 when the game first came out, about being seperate from the city in authority and no meeting of the Iron Council will ever decide what is right or wrong, valid or invalid in the guild, because we are an entirely sovereign, august entity who has sworn oaths to protect the city - we are not PART of the city.
That *IS* a very unique RP angle that you're suggesting for the Shofangi, but it's not *unique*, if you know what I mean.
The Serenguard sorta have this. Their mandate doesn't come from the Moonhart Circle, and really, if the Moonhart Circle went all Grutina Oakvine or something, the Serenguard would have no qualms wiping them out.
There's nothing wrong with being the odd duck in your city/commune, or standing slightly apart from them, but both the Serenguard and the Ur'Guard are the answers to "who watches the watchers?"
Whether or not they're answerable to the ruling council doesn't matter, because they're still a part of the organisation, even though they're apart from the organisation.
The Shofangi as they have been explained to me could easily take their bat and ball and go play somewhere else without having to undergo much of a change to their purpose or identity (at least the purpose as it's been explained to me). I'm not sure the same is true for the Serenguard or the Ur'Guard. They exist to eliminate all threats to the city/commune, internal and external. A certain distance makes sense, but there's no disconnect there.
@Marcella and @Everiine, both of your guilds still have a substantial connection to your city/commune that I think the Shofangi are either missing, or haven't properly solidified.
With an exasperated sigh, you say, "One moment please, I'm threatening a muffin in a box!"
3
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Substantial connection, yes. I was just pointing out the similarity, too.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
@Iari it's the latter. The connection to the forest and the commune has not been properly solidified. Internal bickering politics gets in the way of that.
@Saran made a post a few pages back explaining Shofangi and just how barbaric their power is. Shofa blades are -gruesome- weapons. The grapples are brutal and gorey, particularly the chest and gut ones. It's all about mastering Bull's rage and using it to your advantage. The Shofangi are a gift to Serenwilde by the kephera for their aide in the Undervault reveal.
Tahtetso got away with being slightly apart but still belonging by blending kepheran and Celestian ideals into Lumosis. Shofangi should also be apart but belong because of the gravity of mastering their bloody and ragey technique. When you're literally hooking your shofa just below someone's ribcage and then ripping them out to expose the entire chest and its contents, even the Serenguard are going to mentally wince and look away from such barbarism (in my head). And then the Shofangi rinse and repeat this maneuver until the poor person dies or bleeds out, while also throwing in bone-powdering kicks for good measure.
EDIT: Whereas I feel like kephera Shofangi masters wouldn't use shofa like Serenwilders do. They don't really -have- rage to master. They'd use it surgically, I think, precisely. There's the divide and what makes Shofangi unique.
As I've seen, the "lore" that notable Shofangi of late cling to is more kepheran RP than trying to substantiate the guild as an entity of Serenwilde. That's great, that's fine, but what do you do about the players that are not kephera, and have no interest in kephera aside from the necessities? The Shofangi can totally be that place where all of the kephera flock to, and you can keep rattling off your nonsense kepheran gibberish, but how is that going to be attractive to say, an aslaran monk? Having played said aslaran Shofangi a few times, I have to say it's a pretty cold place unless you are a) kephera, or b) a combatant with no need for RP.
Acknowledge the ties, revere the kephera as founders of the guild and their ways, and then move the heck on. Shofangi -need- to be something more. @Azus, I get that it's your thing and all, but it's just not working in terms of a worthwhile guild identity.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
@Saran made a post a few pages back explaining Shofangi and just how barbaric their power is. Shofa blades are -gruesome- weapons. The grapples are brutal and gorey, particularly the chest and gut ones. It's all about mastering Bull's rage and using it to your advantage. The Shofangi are a gift to Serenwilde by the kephera for their aide in the Undervault reveal.
Tahtetso got away with being slightly apart but still belonging by blending kepheran and Celestian ideals into Lumosis. Shofangi should also be apart but belong because of the gravity of mastering their bloody and ragey technique. When you're literally hooking your shofa just below someone's ribcage and then ripping them out to expose the entire chest and its contents, even the Serenguard are going to mentally wince and look away from such barbarism (in my head). And then the Shofangi rinse and repeat this maneuver until the poor person dies or bleeds out, while also throwing in bone-powdering kicks for good measure.
EDIT: Whereas I feel like kephera Shofangi masters wouldn't use shofa like Serenwilders do. They don't really -have- rage to master. They'd use it surgically, I think, precisely. There's the divide and what makes Shofangi unique.
Personally I'd be really entertained if it turned out that the reason Bull hasn't turned up recently is just that he's so obstinate that all these "nice" rituals "asking" him to "please" come for a visit aren't going to do it and what needs to be done is someone getting really angry, raging at him, and shouting for him to get his ass here now. Because it's the only thing he's going to potentially listen to and at the very least respect.
It could actually provide a reason for a "cleansing" as it were.
Like... people could just get really angry about the state of the guild ic and decide to change things. It could possibly be one of the few instances where you could have a guild chuck an ic tantrum about their direction and lack of lore, and actually... like have it work as part of their lore.
EDIT: Haven't been able to get the image of a Ron Burgandy style fight out of my head since I posted this
Thank you to Kaiel for pointing me at this thread. I never use the forums these days.
We've evolved from a blend of kepheran philosophies about harmony with the natural world and the elements and Seren spirituality, ideals and duties. Kepheran stuff is my strong suit, personally, and as I see it as the foundation of the Shofangi, I've been trying to solidify it before moving on to other things. The reason that you see a great deal of kephera stuff and not a great deal of nonkephera stuff probably stems from the comprehensive lack of information that the Shofangi have inherited from early monks.
I have requested and been denied a lore release for the purpose of recovering relevant information about foundation, and no ex-monk that I have sought or spoken to has been able to provide any information.
Certain individuals and bittervets have taken umbridge that I have not had the precognition to resolve their concerns with the lore WIP before they become a very real concern. This has delayed progress significantly, what with repeated advancement revisions, constant arguments that I have been called to resolve, creation and publication of incorrect 'facts' in official guild scrolls, and even one lunatic running for GM on a platform of 'purge the kephera', I have had more things to deal with on Azus than just simply writing more for the guild, which is no mean feat in itself. Please remember than I am more or less organising lore development as well as administration of the guild largely by myself (or I was, until lately. @Kaiel is pretty cool.) and that I have lots and lots of alts that I love to explore just as much.
As an aside, as far as Patrons are concerned, I've approached @Lisaera on a bunch of topics, and she's been very helpful and considerate. She has a lot on her plate right now, and should not have to carry another guild on her back. We have been talking about it for some time now, and if a decision is made, action will be taken. I am waiting on, I think, just the one project, and I have two outstanding projects to hand into her myself.
I had expected to have Spirit cults established by now - followings of all sorts of Seren Spirits as advised by the Hartstone, Moondancers and Serenguard that should in part take over from the very kepheran pholisophy of Kiyicel. Due to the fierce responses of people who are not Shofangi regarding the coalescence of both new and existing lore on the subject, I have left Bull, the most contentious point, as late as possible. I will return to him as a point of contention later. Existing Seren lore on the Spirits from each guild should be examined and explored from a different perspective to bring the unique cultural connotations of the kephera into play, deepening Shofangi ties to the Spirits and the Seren, and also deepening the lore and RP of each of those Spirits as a new culture adapts to them.
Reference has been made to the Tahtetso blend of kepheran philosophy and Celestian Light into Lumosis, a system of belief that is very authentic, an excellent blend of kepheran culture and Celestian dogma. The Shofangi lack this kind of connection to their organisation, because it was not created or preserved by early Shofangi. I have discussed over city news the relevance of the word Kui, and expressed my preference to abolish its usage in public forums, and will not draw out that debate here.
Integral parts of Shofangi culture should include heavy Spirit lore as seen from a different perspective to the traditional, harmony of the self and of the environment, meditation and reflection, active service, master-student relationships, self-sacrifice, combat, a high degree of self-organisation and a higher degree of self-discipline. Spirit Bull has been known to represent duty, justice and honour, but nothing is said of why these relate to the Shofangi. They exist as an implicit reason to associate with him in and of themselves, despite the references to Spirit Hart's, and not Bull's, influence on the Shofangi in their early days (we come from cultures that share harmony, community, discipline, the natural world, and hold self-sacrifice to be among the highest of virtues, we were awed by his form, and by Moon's crescent, and the fae named our curved knife weapons 'shofa' in honour of hart's strength and majesty.)
I have been attempting to follow a loose, multiple step program.
Step One. Foundational Values. Kepheran culture and philosophies in a new and xenophobic Seren.
Step Two. Shared Values. The commonalities between Seren and kepheran culture, which make them compatible and natural allies.
Step Three. Increased Awareness. The Shofangi need to be properly assimilated into Serenwilde culture as something different and new, and not 'odd sorts of monks' or the step-sibling. This is the part in which I have been stalled by nonShofangi insisting that the emerging Shofangi identity conform to their expectations, or their fairytale memories of early or proto-development Shofangi.
Step Four. Seren Influx. Kepheran ideas need to be blended with or subsumed by Serenwilde ideas, and presented in a way that respects ancestral kepheran teachers and appeals to modern day Serenwilders. This is not to say that 'Shofangi now worship Spirit Bull', because this does not mesh with their cultural identity to date. Spirit Hart would be a more suitable candidate, but as Shofangi responsibility and learning is upon the individual, it would be a very big shift to switch from an internalised system of enlightenment to one that relies completely on a Spirit. There are cultural reasons for how and why these beliefs might change, which are not publicised due to the WIP nature of this process.
Step Five. Evolution. Seren interpretations of basic kepheran ideas need to change and shift over time, until we are left with a finished product (like Lumosis) or a system of belief that is largely Seren, but can be seen to have been derived from its kepheran origins. By this point, Shofangi need to have been accepted as another part of the Serenwilde, through a mutual understanding of morality, connection to the defence of nature, shared understanding of harmony and preferably friendly or familial relations with a large variety of Seren people.
It is an ambitious project, but the Shofangi, who possess unique RP hooks, deserve no less.
On Bull.
The altar quest used to summon him and make him manifest presents him as aware of what is happening in the Seren, able to respond when he wishes to respond, capable of manifesting himself, capable of communication when he wishes to communicate, contempuous of his followers (Nimailt Moonblade) and ultimately uncaring for the Serenwilde (as he tells you not to bother him again). This is very important. His thing is duty, loyalty and honour. He has demonstratedly scorned his duty to the protection of the Serenwilde by choosing not to respond when the Seren is in peril, disrespects his own deceased and faithful follower, and as a result, contravenes the principals of honour that he taught to his own cult, long ago (which was largely scorned by the Serenwilde of the time).
In this, I see no reason at all for Azus to seek closer a closer connection with Bull, who is shameful and forsworn according to his own teachings, in her eyes.
No cultural reason exists for the Shofangi to embrace Bull either. We have five skills named after him for no apparent reason (as Shofangi have not ever really learned from or interacted with him), and they could just as easily be renamed for Hart, who would be a far more appropriate role model and spiritual guide. We have a quest that involves meditating on some symbolism that is only obliquely about Bull. That is all. One or two people might decide that this mysterious Bull deserves a look at, but there is no reason at all for any responsible guild master to base a system of martial and philosophical practices around such a strange, surly and dreafully distant spirit that has not interacted with anyone in any real way, particularly when the actual creators of those practices are still alive and thriving. The idea of a berserker sounds like it might have been fun to use, long, long ago, but nothing was done about it, times changes and things evolved or disappeared, and I can only work with what I have.
I am currently working on a proposal for Bull revision. Ultimately, it is not my decision to make. I might use him more if he shapes up and stops being an ass, or alternatively, we could connect with three existing guilds more closely by learning from their respective animal spirits. Our harmony might extend into the entire natural world, calming storms, redirecting catastrophy, balancing ecosystems, protecting nature from destruction. We might aspire to the paragons that are the spirits of nature. We might interpret all of nature as one giant bubble of harmony, and worship Nature as a supreme whole. We might just follow Bull, and stomp on people who make us cranky.
All I can do is prepare the foundation of lore and keep it from falling over when Alt Y decides 'screw that kepheran guy and his weird roleplay' and decides to come and show everybody how their idea that they've never acted on is -really- the one thing that the Shofangi needed to be the best guild in the Serenwilde. I've had some unpleasant, recurring messages from a small number of people, and some very touching sentiments of support from a great deal more, admin among them. Many of the suggestions here are excellent things to consider, and have been presented in a very healthy way, which I am grateful for. I'd love to talk about the ongoing project that is the Shofangi, if you'd like to chat with me sometime.
TL;DR? I don't use forums much. There are reasons for what I'm doing, the Shofangi evolved and did things to become the blank space they are today, they have cool stuff that I'm bringing out. It's not going to be a kepheran guild. I've had trouble getting things to stay in place, but things are still progressing.
From my perspective, the weird incomprihesible
keperan names and the emphasis on Undervault links makes the Shofangi
feel like they don't really belong in the Serenwilde. If they ran around
using bull names and revering bull instead they would seem a lot more
like Serenwilders.
I didn't feel like clicking agree was quite enough.
I vehemently agree with this statement.
@Iari and @Qistrel, Azus, as a character that is kepheran, uses kepheran
words as part of
her personal roleplay. Shofangi use only the words that Sadie created
for them, and most Shofangi never use anything but a few titles which,
after a few centuries of acclimitisation, the Serenwilde should really
be accustomed to by now. I'm not inclined to dispense with them, because
they're one of
the few parts of older Shofangi lore that still exists. Besides,
Spiritsingers get weird gargles of letters for titles.
I've
spoken out against the use of kepheran language to refer to the guild as
divisive in the past - I feel that calling us 'The Kui' (the clan) is
rude, because it implies that we are the only real clan in the
Serenwilde, which is obviously untrue. Also, the 'Khan en-Wilde' is the
Chief of the Wilde, which would be appropriate for a kepheran guild, but
is not appropriate for a Seren guild. If I'm being part of the
Serenwilde, I ought to be Khan en-Shofangi, or some similar title. There
are newsposts around Seren somewhere on the topic.
As I've seen, the "lore" that notable Shofangi
of late cling to is more kepheran RP than trying to substantiate the
guild as an entity of Serenwilde. That's great, that's fine, but what do
you do about the players that are not kephera, and have no interest in
kephera aside from the necessities? The Shofangi can totally be that
place where all of the kephera flock to, and you can keep rattling off
your nonsense kepheran gibberish, but how is that going to be attractive
to say, an aslaran monk? Having played said aslaran Shofangi a few
times, I have to say it's a pretty cold place unless you are a) kephera,
or b) a combatant with no need for RP.
Acknowledge
the ties, revere the kephera as founders of the guild and their ways,
and then move the heck on. Shofangi -need- to be something more. @Azus, I
get that it's your thing and all, but it's just not working in terms of
a worthwhile guild identity.
Goodness, let's not be petty. At least name me, @Eritheyl
Kephera
are part of the guild's history. To know about the guild is to know a
little about the kephera. The guild itself is not intended to be
kepheran, it was just never given anything else, and that's taking time
to resolve.
Azus, as Queen, has an additional duty to look after
kephera. Where an aslari Ejei might recieve the basic training before
being allowed to choose and follow his own path like all other Ejei are,
a kepheran Ejei (upon reaching Shabinar) is going to recieve additional
lessons and support for things pertaining to kepheran culture,
Undervault business and things like that. It's no different to having,
say, a young McCloud alt in the Celestines, and having Meliana or
Saoirse spend personal time with you teaching you more stuff about
Celest. As a kepheran GM, I'm not setting out to give people a hard
time, I'm exploring racial roleplay.
I don't have guild kephera
programs, I don't have compulsory lessons, and I don't make people
recite kepheran language. The information exists, and is given to
kephera who join Ankhemet, or anyone who asks for it. There's just not a
lot of surviving non-kepheran information. I'm working onit.
@Marcella and @Everiine, both of your
guilds still have a substantial connection to your city/commune that I
think the Shofangi are either missing, or haven't properly solidified.
@Iari This is something I agree with, absolutely. The Shofangi haven't
been absorbed into Seren culture at all. They weren't given any at
release, and it hasn't been developed since. I'm laying the foundations,
but the interference makes it difficult.
Which makes me question if a different group of shofangi have a different interpretation, if someone from outside the shofangi decided to include Bull without consulting the "experts", or if an admin included him.
The first means there's conflicting opinions on the relationship with Bull within the guild, the third would mean the players are wrong, and the second well there's all sorts of problems with that such as the possibility that Bull has been showing up because someone who didn't know Bull never turns up decided to make him turn up.
@Saran that pretty much happened. People decided that though they'd never been a Shofangi before, they knew better than experienced Shofangi leadership, and included him because they heard I wanted him removed. Taken ICly, it only supports my stance of 'he can choose to appear and junk whenever he likes, but chooses not to', which lets Bull wiggle a little deeper into the pit of shame.
The problem there is that bull is tacked on and utterly boring. AFAIK, he doesn't doesn't have anything to do with their roots, and has a bond with them "because".
Edit: to clarify, there is a Canon ic quest that outouts the teachings of bull, and it's like
. Steadfastness, trustworthiness, reliability, loyalt and "protect the weak." Yes, four of those are basically the same thing. Yes, the last isn't a virtue. Yes, these are bland, generic platitudes.
If we had a Bull like Hartstone has a Hart, I'd take them as gospel. But he's demonstrated that he lacks each of those qualities, and was never really involved with us in the first place. Even if he were to appear and say 'You should totally do this, because you should do what I say', she'd probably enemy him to the guild. If Terentia let slip that She had slaves She beat, and drank Taint like wine, I feel like the Paladins would have similar reservations should a group of people decide that the guild had been a cult for her since before their creation in Old Celest.
Our harmony might extend into the entire natural world, calming storms, redirecting catastrophy, balancing ecosystems, protecting nature from destruction. We might aspire to the paragons that are the spirits of nature. We might interpret all of nature as one giant bubble of harmony, and worship Nature as a supreme whole.
I feel like here you pretty much are describing the Hartstone to varying degrees. Restoring plant life (balancing ecosystems) and interacting with the weather are even things they can mechanically do. Conceptually the protection of the natural world is something that all of Serenwilde has a stake in.
Those are just examples for how the existing things could be merged with the Serenwilde's greater theme. I rather think that a stake in protecting nature is just what Shofangi needs. It would certainly help bring us together.
My post was not so much saying we must change the titles, as saying they should never have existed in the first place. Which is an entirely unhelpful thing for me to say.
I do, however, have access to some info about the founding of the Shofangi. I wasn't aware you were looking for it.
IIRC the commune monk guilds were told that they had to be linked to the Astral sphere of their commune for very little reason except because. I think even the bull-named skills were either renamed or added very late in an attempt to make the guild more bullish. So if bull feels tacked on, it's because he was.
Comments
EDIT: Of course, if Aspects of Jaguar, Eagle, and Wolverine are ever discovered, I will be ecstatic! *wink wink nudge nudge hint hint*
Look at what the Nekotai did with their totems. They took things from around the forest (Beetle, Wasp, Spider, and so on) and used it. Maybe the Shofangi can do the same and write stuff up. The -worst- that can happen is that admin who rp with them don't acknowledge it.
Why not have that as one of Bull's 'things'?
As in the traits of Bull that make up a good Shofangi: Rage and Resolve.
Such as from an example scroll found entirely in my head:
"Resolve: Once an action is decided on, it is to be taken. Bull stands firm against the tide, no matter the consequences, and so do the Shofangi, as his disciples. We are to be the rock that remains in place, even when those tides wash everything else away. We do not falter, or yield, or compromise. We are the Kui!
Rage: Bull does not pull his punches, and nor should you. Not just in combat, but in life itself. Give everything you set yourself to your greatest effort. There are no half-measures. If a thing is to be done, let it be done. Let any who are not with us stand aside or be trampled. We are the Kui!"
Or, something like that. It's a small tie-in, and kind of not-fleshed-out, but it's two thing that could 1) be attributed to bull, and 2) would let the shofangi carve themselves a sort of identity of their own as stubborn monks, who throw themselves at whatever they do like the proverbially bull at the gate.
The other thing is that by using those two examples/suggestions, or something like them, there's also potential tie-ins to Kepheran harmony.
From my perspective, the weird incomprihesible keperan names and the emphasis on Undervault links makes the Shofangi feel like they don't really belong in the Serenwilde. If they ran around using bull names and revering bull instead they would seem a lot more like Serenwilders.
I vehemently agree with this statement.
Luenn tends to see things in more mercantile terms: We pay lip service to Bull, and in exchange we receive some of his powers, like Bullrage. In exchange for playing a support role to to commune, we get a place to stay and access to a nexus of power. These go to support our primary goal of defending the Undervault from the Illithoid.
I figure people will probably disagree with this though.
There's nothing wrong with being the odd duck in your city/commune, or standing slightly apart from them, but both the Serenguard and the Ur'Guard are the answers to "who watches the watchers?"
Whether or not they're answerable to the ruling council doesn't matter, because they're still a part of the organisation, even though they're apart from the organisation.
The Shofangi as they have been explained to me could easily take their bat and ball and go play somewhere else without having to undergo much of a change to their purpose or identity (at least the purpose as it's been explained to me). I'm not sure the same is true for the Serenguard or the Ur'Guard. They exist to eliminate all threats to the city/commune, internal and external. A certain distance makes sense, but there's no disconnect there.
@Marcella and @Everiine, both of your guilds still have a substantial connection to your city/commune that I think the Shofangi are either missing, or haven't properly solidified.
Tahtetso got away with being slightly apart but still belonging by blending kepheran and Celestian ideals into Lumosis. Shofangi should also be apart but belong because of the gravity of mastering their bloody and ragey technique. When you're literally hooking your shofa just below someone's ribcage and then ripping them out to expose the entire chest and its contents, even the Serenguard are going to mentally wince and look away from such barbarism (in my head). And then the Shofangi rinse and repeat this maneuver until the poor person dies or bleeds out, while also throwing in bone-powdering kicks for good measure.
EDIT: Whereas I feel like kephera Shofangi masters wouldn't use shofa like Serenwilders do. They don't really -have- rage to master. They'd use it surgically, I think, precisely. There's the divide and what makes Shofangi unique.
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We've evolved from a blend of kepheran philosophies about harmony with the natural world and the elements and Seren spirituality, ideals and duties. Kepheran stuff is my strong suit, personally, and as I see it as the foundation of the Shofangi, I've been trying to solidify it before moving on to other things. The reason that you see a great deal of kephera stuff and not a great deal of nonkephera stuff probably stems from the comprehensive lack of information that the Shofangi have inherited from early monks.
I have requested and been denied a lore release for the purpose of recovering relevant information about foundation, and no ex-monk that I have sought or spoken to has been able to provide any information.
Certain individuals and bittervets have taken umbridge that I have not had the precognition to resolve their concerns with the lore WIP before they become a very real concern. This has delayed progress significantly, what with repeated advancement revisions, constant arguments that I have been called to resolve, creation and publication of incorrect 'facts' in official guild scrolls, and even one lunatic running for GM on a platform of 'purge the kephera', I have had more things to deal with on Azus than just simply writing more for the guild, which is no mean feat in itself. Please remember than I am more or less organising lore development as well as administration of the guild largely by myself (or I was, until lately. @Kaiel is pretty cool.) and that I have lots and lots of alts that I love to explore just as much.
As an aside, as far as Patrons are concerned, I've approached @Lisaera on a bunch of topics, and she's been very helpful and considerate. She has a lot on her plate right now, and should not have to carry another guild on her back. We have been talking about it for some time now, and if a decision is made, action will be taken. I am waiting on, I think, just the one project, and I have two outstanding projects to hand into her myself.
I had expected to have Spirit cults established by now - followings of all sorts of Seren Spirits as advised by the Hartstone, Moondancers and Serenguard that should in part take over from the very kepheran pholisophy of Kiyicel. Due to the fierce responses of people who are not Shofangi regarding the coalescence of both new and existing lore on the subject, I have left Bull, the most contentious point, as late as possible. I will return to him as a point of contention later. Existing Seren lore on the Spirits from each guild should be examined and explored from a different perspective to bring the unique cultural connotations of the kephera into play, deepening Shofangi ties to the Spirits and the Seren, and also deepening the lore and RP of each of those Spirits as a new culture adapts to them.
Reference has been made to the Tahtetso blend of kepheran philosophy and Celestian Light into Lumosis, a system of belief that is very authentic, an excellent blend of kepheran culture and Celestian dogma. The Shofangi lack this kind of connection to their organisation, because it was not created or preserved by early Shofangi. I have discussed over city news the relevance of the word Kui, and expressed my preference to abolish its usage in public forums, and will not draw out that debate here.
Integral parts of Shofangi culture should include heavy Spirit lore as seen from a different perspective to the traditional, harmony of the self and of the environment, meditation and reflection, active service, master-student relationships, self-sacrifice, combat, a high degree of self-organisation and a higher degree of self-discipline. Spirit Bull has been known to represent duty, justice and honour, but nothing is said of why these relate to the Shofangi. They exist as an implicit reason to associate with him in and of themselves, despite the references to Spirit Hart's, and not Bull's, influence on the Shofangi in their early days (we come from cultures that share harmony, community, discipline, the natural world, and hold self-sacrifice to be among the highest of virtues, we were awed by his form, and by Moon's crescent, and the fae named our curved knife weapons 'shofa' in honour of hart's strength and majesty.)
I have been attempting to follow a loose, multiple step program.
It is an ambitious project, but the Shofangi, who possess unique RP hooks, deserve no less.
On Bull.
The altar quest used to summon him and make him manifest presents him as aware of what is happening in the Seren, able to respond when he wishes to respond, capable of manifesting himself, capable of communication when he wishes to communicate, contempuous of his followers (Nimailt Moonblade) and ultimately uncaring for the Serenwilde (as he tells you not to bother him again). This is very important. His thing is duty, loyalty and honour. He has demonstratedly scorned his duty to the protection of the Serenwilde by choosing not to respond when the Seren is in peril, disrespects his own deceased and faithful follower, and as a result, contravenes the principals of honour that he taught to his own cult, long ago (which was largely scorned by the Serenwilde of the time).
In this, I see no reason at all for Azus to seek closer a closer connection with Bull, who is shameful and forsworn according to his own teachings, in her eyes.
No cultural reason exists for the Shofangi to embrace Bull either. We have five skills named after him for no apparent reason (as Shofangi have not ever really learned from or interacted with him), and they could just as easily be renamed for Hart, who would be a far more appropriate role model and spiritual guide. We have a quest that involves meditating on some symbolism that is only obliquely about Bull. That is all. One or two people might decide that this mysterious Bull deserves a look at, but there is no reason at all for any responsible guild master to base a system of martial and philosophical practices around such a strange, surly and dreafully distant spirit that has not interacted with anyone in any real way, particularly when the actual creators of those practices are still alive and thriving. The idea of a berserker sounds like it might have been fun to use, long, long ago, but nothing was done about it, times changes and things evolved or disappeared, and I can only work with what I have.
I am currently working on a proposal for Bull revision. Ultimately, it is not my decision to make. I might use him more if he shapes up and stops being an ass, or alternatively, we could connect with three existing guilds more closely by learning from their respective animal spirits. Our harmony might extend into the entire natural world, calming storms, redirecting catastrophy, balancing ecosystems, protecting nature from destruction. We might aspire to the paragons that are the spirits of nature. We might interpret all of nature as one giant bubble of harmony, and worship Nature as a supreme whole. We might just follow Bull, and stomp on people who make us cranky.
All I can do is prepare the foundation of lore and keep it from falling over when Alt Y decides 'screw that kepheran guy and his weird roleplay' and decides to come and show everybody how their idea that they've never acted on is -really- the one thing that the Shofangi needed to be the best guild in the Serenwilde. I've had some unpleasant, recurring messages from a small number of people, and some very touching sentiments of support from a great deal more, admin among them. Many of the suggestions here are excellent things to consider, and have been presented in a very healthy way, which I am grateful for. I'd love to talk about the ongoing project that is the Shofangi, if you'd like to chat with me sometime.
TL;DR? I don't use forums much. There are reasons for what I'm doing, the Shofangi evolved and did things to become the blank space they are today, they have cool stuff that I'm bringing out. It's not going to be a kepheran guild. I've had trouble getting things to stay in place, but things are still progressing.
I've spoken out against the use of kepheran language to refer to the guild as divisive in the past - I feel that calling us 'The Kui' (the clan) is rude, because it implies that we are the only real clan in the Serenwilde, which is obviously untrue. Also, the 'Khan en-Wilde' is the Chief of the Wilde, which would be appropriate for a kepheran guild, but is not appropriate for a Seren guild. If I'm being part of the Serenwilde, I ought to be Khan en-Shofangi, or some similar title. There are newsposts around Seren somewhere on the topic.
Goodness, let's not be petty. At least name me, @Eritheyl
Kephera are part of the guild's history. To know about the guild is to know a little about the kephera. The guild itself is not intended to be kepheran, it was just never given anything else, and that's taking time to resolve.
Azus, as Queen, has an additional duty to look after kephera. Where an aslari Ejei might recieve the basic training before being allowed to choose and follow his own path like all other Ejei are, a kepheran Ejei (upon reaching Shabinar) is going to recieve additional lessons and support for things pertaining to kepheran culture, Undervault business and things like that. It's no different to having, say, a young McCloud alt in the Celestines, and having Meliana or Saoirse spend personal time with you teaching you more stuff about Celest. As a kepheran GM, I'm not setting out to give people a hard time, I'm exploring racial roleplay.
I don't have guild kephera programs, I don't have compulsory lessons, and I don't make people recite kepheran language. The information exists, and is given to kephera who join Ankhemet, or anyone who asks for it. There's just not a lot of surviving non-kepheran information. I'm working onit.
@Iari This is something I agree with, absolutely. The Shofangi haven't been absorbed into Seren culture at all. They weren't given any at release, and it hasn't been developed since. I'm laying the foundations, but the interference makes it difficult.
@Saran that pretty much happened. People decided that though they'd never been a Shofangi before, they knew better than experienced Shofangi leadership, and included him because they heard I wanted him removed. Taken ICly, it only supports my stance of 'he can choose to appear and junk whenever he likes, but chooses not to', which lets Bull wiggle a little deeper into the pit of shame.
If we had a Bull like Hartstone has a Hart, I'd take them as gospel. But he's demonstrated that he lacks each of those qualities, and was never really involved with us in the first place. Even if he were to appear and say 'You should totally do this, because you should do what I say', she'd probably enemy him to the guild. If Terentia let slip that She had slaves She beat, and drank Taint like wine, I feel like the Paladins would have similar reservations should a group of people decide that the guild had been a cult for her since before their creation in Old Celest.
I do, however, have access to some info about the founding of the Shofangi. I wasn't aware you were looking for it.