The problem there is that bull is tacked on and utterly boring. AFAIK, he doesn't doesn't have anything to do with their roots, and has a bond with them "because".
Edit: to clarify, there is a Canon ic quest that outouts the teachings of bull, and it's like . Steadfastness, trustworthiness, reliability, loyalt and "protect the weak." Yes, four of those are basically the same thing. Yes, the last isn't a virtue. Yes, these are bland, generic platitudes.
My dad liked White Hart more than me, but no big, I just be hangin' here in my cave.
The Nimalt Moonblade (sp?) quest says that there were bull followers in Serenwilde long before the Taint Wars (and hints at them using moonblades), but AFAIK there's nothing mentioned about them anywhere else.
I personally think the Shofangi is pretty stupid, as far as Kephera stuff goes.
As far as anything I've been able to find states, the Kephera had no spoken language before they were discovered. They communicated telepathically, conveying direct thought and meaning to one-another without the need for words.
I just can't wrap my head around why you would make up words and claim they're Kepheran when the Kephera literally don't have a language. "Kui means clan", really? If it means clan, you say clan. It's not that hard. You are grasping at straws, and it's sort of stupid.
Having a guild specific rp jargon can be a good way to inject identity and culture into org rp, especially for things that don't translate well (which kui is intended to be, iirc:clan is "just the closest in common").
For instance, one of my lore things is"gwyar"*, which literally translates to "blood", but signifies a concept of change/energy/elevation. Having a cool, esoteric, thematic term for the idea adds something significant, I think.
I'm pretty excited for some kind of coherent player lore for the shofangi, I know they've struggled with it for a long time.
*it's a take on real life neodruidry, adapted to Lusternia, partnered with nwyfre, calas, and lludw.
Scorpion has her own area and questline and that helped with Nekotai lore, additionally the entire events of its uncovering and the unveiling of how the Illithoid were taught the nekotai arts.
There's a mini quest you can do with astral bull corpses, but from what I understand it's a bit buggy.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
You can contact Bull at any time--there is a quest to rebuild His altar, and when you do, you get a message from Bull. And He shows up for just about every Vernal Ascension.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
The problem is, repairing an altar and having Bull rock up to say 'Dad liked my older bro more, I'm kinda grumpy now, but hey, it's all good, go do monk things' does not match up to the Scorpion Caverns.
There is a big hint in that quest that a significant number of Serenwilders long ago went to try and find the Undervault because Bull said they should. But, we haven't ever gotten to the next step (finding a bunch of bull-worshiping elfens somewhere underground). Maybe they just all died. Alas.
The Nimalt Moonblade (sp?) quest says that there were bull followers in Serenwilde long before the Taint Wars (and hints at them using moonblades), but AFAIK there's nothing mentioned about them anywhere else.
This sounds like the time to work with your Patron, @Qistrel. The Staff and Divine don't play as players, but play as Dungeon Masters. This means they actually like to add new areas/denizens/quests/honours. So now think up your scaffold, storyboard it somewhat, and see where They take it. Even if they take it as far as the rubbish bin I'm pretty sure you'll get feed-back so even a ``No'' is not a waste of time.
So...I had a super long post ready, but I'll save that for the time being.
Instead, I'll just say two things:
1) I honestly think that the Shofangi need to think about what it is that connects them to Serenwilde. If there's nothing already there lore-wise, then something needs to be done about that, and quick. Every explanation of the Shofangi I've ever received from one has made them sound like they belong more in the Undervault than as part of the forest.
-EDIT: The other explanation about who/what they are that I've gotten is "Uh...no idea." And that's from Shofangi
2) I really think that Bull is a direction that will help the first. I heard some talk some time ago about people trying to cut Bull altogether. Given that there is already a bit of obscurity about what it is that makes the Shofangi Serenwildey a push towards bull could really help. As far as the "Bull is the unloved grumpy brother of White Hart" I don't see why that's an angle that can't be played with a bit.
Anyway, I don't mean to be snotty or harsh, goodness knows that every guild has its problems, those are just two I've noticed from the outside. I hope they help!
With an exasperated sigh, you say, "One moment please, I'm threatening a muffin in a box!"
Your school which was carved from stone, the physically strongest element, and (from memory) your entrance was left sharp and dangerous, I believe I left it as a precarious slippery path way. Fluff is already coming to mind about how you could reinterpret the silly designs of mine into teachings.
Our entrance is a magic rainbow that only lets you in if you promise to be true. No explaination for why, no question. Things are being looked at.
We do have lore, history, etc etc. I'm being slow at formalising it all, it's all good.
Interestingly, the rainbow is something that we didn't ask for from memory, we asked for an entrance and got... well that which kinda screwed some things up.
The plan (which we didn't have the gold for) was that there would be the entrance and the elemental level as general access for the guild with the balcony as a hidden meeting area, then the next level would be for the guild leader offices (meditative emote or something to get into them, I think there was an idea to make this restricted to somewhat maybe at the least the top area was supposed to be restricted to like gr5 for progression perks and potential flavour.
The problem is, repairing an altar and having Bull rock up to say 'Dad liked my older bro more, I'm kinda grumpy now, but hey, it's all good, go do monk things' does not match up to the Scorpion Caverns.
There is a big hint in that quest that a significant number of Serenwilders long ago went to try and find the Undervault because Bull said they should. But, we haven't ever gotten to the next step (finding a bunch of bull-worshiping elfens somewhere underground). Maybe they just all died. Alas.
I can't actually remember if this came out before or after the Scorpion Caverns, but that description actually sounds like it's a plot hook that wasn't followed up on. Which isn't actually entirely unusual though it might not have been followed up due to the issues with the Caverns, you'd need to talk to a patron though.
You can contact Bull at any time--there is a quest to rebuild His altar, and when you do, you get a message from Bull. And He shows up for just about every Vernal Ascension.
This is weird to me, I remember people really specifically telling me that Bull hasn't actually been to Serenwilde in potentially literal ages and the statue message is all that they've been able to get out of him ever. But obviously that's been a while ago so maybe things have changed?
It also doesn't help that their guild's patron has been inactive for irl years.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
yeah that's the fault of the guild leadership. RP is awesome but there has got to come a point when you stop tying your own hands and appoint an active patron for the ooc benefits (because that's what a patron really does!)
yeah that's the fault of the guild leadership. RP is awesome but there has got to come a point when you stop tying your own hands and appoint an active patron for the ooc benefits (because that's what a patron really does!)
This is why I like the way MKO works for this stuff, I really hate having to appoint a patron for OOC reasons when it's an IC post
You can contact Bull at any time--there is a quest to rebuild His altar, and when you do, you get a message from Bull. And He shows up for just about every Vernal Ascension.
This is weird to me, I remember people really specifically telling me that Bull hasn't actually been to Serenwilde in potentially literal ages and the statue message is all that they've been able to get out of him ever. But obviously that's been a while ago so maybe things have changed?
At both Avurekhos's and Rivius's Ascension ceremonies, Bull was a part of it. He appeared and charged at both of them, testing their resolve, before giving His blessing.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
You can contact Bull at any time--there is a quest to rebuild His altar, and when you do, you get a message from Bull. And He shows up for just about every Vernal Ascension.
This is weird to me, I remember people really specifically telling me that Bull hasn't actually been to Serenwilde in potentially literal ages and the statue message is all that they've been able to get out of him ever. But obviously that's been a while ago so maybe things have changed?
At both Avurekhos's and Rivius's Ascension ceremonies, Bull was a part of it. He appeared and charged at both of them, testing their resolve, before giving His blessing.
I suppose that then comes down to the argument between players though.
I've been told that Bull never shows up, that he hasn't been seen in the forest since he "abandoned it" (I believe the phrasing was). That from the very beginnings of the guild there has been no real connection with Bull ever.
Again, I can't be certain when the ascensions happened but if they were before this thread then people aren't talking to each other. Cause like... if they occurred over a year ago then the belief that Bull is a presence in Serenwilde and turns up exists at the same time as the firm belief in the opposite.
Which also comes down to who was behind bull turning up (An admin doing it is different to a player doing it even if they're both using recho's)
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Avurekhos was raised on December 6, 2014, exactly one month ago.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
So things may have changed by the time Avurekhos ascended.
The response by @Azus in the linked thread for Rivius though reflect the reaction of their then... Guildmaster? (I think) At least someone who had been heavily involved at their lore at that point.
Which makes me question if a different group of shofangi have a different interpretation, if someone from outside the shofangi decided to include Bull without consulting the "experts", or if an admin included him.
The first means there's conflicting opinions on the relationship with Bull within the guild, the third would mean the players are wrong, and the second well there's all sorts of problems with that such as the possibility that Bull has been showing up because someone who didn't know Bull never turns up decided to make him turn up.
So yeah, confused because I'm fairly sure it was @Azus that stated Bull hasn't been to Serenwilde in ages last I discussed this and that was near the beginnings of this thread a year ago.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
From an outsider's perspective, I think it's the third, and it's always bothered me. I've heard the argument that Bull isn't all that important because there's just the one little quest, and nothing comes of it. The thinking was if nothing mechanical involving Bull happened, then it wasn't really part of the lore. That confuses me, being in a guild where we created three new Great Spirits and did things with them that were entirely emoted and RP'ed out long before there was any coding for them at all (which is only their brief appearances in the Geography collegium quest). Basically, the guild never seems to have tried to add anything to the Bull lore. Again, outsiders' perspective--I may be dead wrong, and things were tried and shut down by the admin, or something else happened.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
My impression was that there are some canon Bull connections, but only a tiny sector of the players know or care, because what official stuff there is on him is boring.
1
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
So, add interesting bits to it. That's how I would handle it.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
From an outsider's perspective, I think it's the third, and it's always bothered me. I've heard the argument that Bull isn't all that important because there's just the one little quest, and nothing comes of it. The thinking was if nothing mechanical involving Bull happened, then it wasn't really part of the lore. That confuses me, being in a guild where we created three new Great Spirits and did things with them that were entirely emoted and RP'ed out long before there was any coding for them at all (which is only their brief appearances in the Geography collegium quest). Basically, the guild never seems to have tried to add anything to the Bull lore. Again, outsiders' perspective--I may be dead wrong, and things were tried and shut down by the admin, or something else happened.
I agree with pretty much all of this and I think the Serenguard are one of the examples of where player driven rp has really taken off and it's great.
For the Shofangi attempts someone else would need to answer that, though I suppose another factor is the players involved and their experiences creating rp.
The thing that I kinda disagree on is just that I have a suspicion that it's actually the second, just cause my expectation is that if Serenwilde has one of those "special effect objects" then my immediate expectation is this sort of thing would be in their hands,
If this isn't available for the locations covered by the ceremonies then the players are just wrong though.
Comments
Edit: to clarify, there is a Canon ic quest that outouts the teachings of bull, and it's like
. Steadfastness, trustworthiness, reliability, loyalt and "protect the weak." Yes, four of those are basically the same thing. Yes, the last isn't a virtue. Yes, these are bland, generic platitudes.
The Nimalt Moonblade (sp?) quest says that there were bull followers in Serenwilde long before the Taint Wars (and hints at them using moonblades), but AFAIK there's nothing mentioned about them anywhere else.
For instance, one of my lore things is"gwyar"*, which literally translates to "blood", but signifies a concept of change/energy/elevation. Having a cool, esoteric, thematic term for the idea adds something significant, I think.
I'm pretty excited for some kind of coherent player lore for the shofangi, I know they've struggled with it for a long time.
*it's a take on real life neodruidry, adapted to Lusternia, partnered with nwyfre, calas, and lludw.
Scorpion has her own area and questline and that helped with Nekotai lore, additionally the entire events of its uncovering and the unveiling of how the Illithoid were taught the nekotai arts.
There is a big hint in that quest that a significant number of Serenwilders long ago went to try and find the Undervault because Bull said they should. But, we haven't ever gotten to the next step (finding a bunch of bull-worshiping elfens somewhere underground). Maybe they just all died. Alas.
Instead, I'll just say two things:
1) I honestly think that the Shofangi need to think about what it is that connects them to Serenwilde. If there's nothing already there lore-wise, then something needs to be done about that, and quick. Every explanation of the Shofangi I've ever received from one has made them sound like they belong more in the Undervault than as part of the forest.
-EDIT: The other explanation about who/what they are that I've gotten is "Uh...no idea." And that's from Shofangi
2) I really think that Bull is a direction that will help the first. I heard some talk some time ago about people trying to cut Bull altogether. Given that there is already a bit of obscurity about what it is that makes the Shofangi Serenwildey a push towards bull could really help. As far as the "Bull is the unloved grumpy brother of White Hart" I don't see why that's an angle that can't be played with a bit.
Anyway, I don't mean to be snotty or harsh, goodness knows that every guild has its problems, those are just two I've noticed from the outside. I hope they help!