1v1v1v1v1v1 would be the best, and it is possible. See: Achaea.
The only thing that's """forcing""" alliances are the players. Jk also smobs have been so overtuned that you need a lot of people that no single org has to be able to kill them.
Exactly the only thing stopping it is us and a few chelp scrolls.
But it is players in a plural group context. Don't forget that one org *did* decide to sever alliances and step towards a free for all scenario... and subsequently failed so hard to stand alone that it very quickly re-entered alliances.
If every org made a similar move at the same time, I think there would certainly be issues vis-a-vis disparate populations and the probable de facto "least bad enemy" based partnerships but it might possibly be workable long term. Without that kind of unanimous motion *and* some concrete benefits to create incentives to stand alone it is not possible.
Even if every player agrees on it, all of the games mechanics (ALL of them) are structured such that it's best to have 2 alliances, two "parties" in every competition, and so this will always be a status quo we return to in the longer term.
But it is players in a plural group context. Don't forget that one org *did* decide to sever alliances and step towards a free for all scenario... and subsequently failed so hard to stand alone that it very quickly re-entered alliances.
If every org made a similar move at the same time, I think there would certainly be issues vis-a-vis disparate populations and the probable de facto "least bad enemy" based partnerships but it might possibly be workable long term. Without that kind of unanimous motion *and* some concrete benefits to create incentives to stand alone it is not possible.
Even if every player agrees on it, all of the games mechanics (ALL of them) are structured such that it's best to have 2 alliances, two "parties" in every competition, and so this will always be a status quo we return to in the longer term.
I agree with the part everyone would need to dissolve at once, but I disagree about the mechanics. It is literally the opposite. Every mechanic is literally not created for 1v1. The game is not 1v1. It is what we the players made it into. The scoring system all score individually for single orgs not alliances.
It is honestly not productive to call someone out for pointing out what is good in another IRE. Lusternia has pulled other things from other IREs. The fact that PvP is so broken in Lusternia right now should cause us all to be looking anywhere for solutions.
I suppose the question is - what needs to be fixed to make people start trying at PvP again?
If all this stuff gets changed - and Magnagora and Hallifax have had some pretty major overhauls in the last year - and there is still no PvP because another reason gets put forward, then it is not PvP that is broken (well it may be but no amount of fixing anything is going to cure the problem)
I think the outlined issues that have been stated so many times, are actual issues. One of them can be addressed by the admins and the other, well... can't. -If- combat skills were on an even playing field (all factors considered - skills themselves, synergy, afflictions etc) to where it would boil down to actual player skill and population, then it wouldn't be so bad. The discouraging part comes into play when you're just outnumbered 3 to 1, and no amount of player skill is going to see you win that encounter. That's what the admin can't really fix, is player choice of population.
PvP is broken because we don't want to enter into it due to dominance of one side. You can blame us all you like for not trying, but at some point you have to start wondering why, if players don't want to climb the mountain, the players are getting blamed rather than the mountain.
PvP is broken because we don't want to enter into it due to dominance of one side. You can blame us all you like for not trying, but at some point you have to start wondering why, if players don't want to climb the mountain, the players are getting blamed rather than the mountain.
But thats what I was asking - what would make you start again? There is no point treating the symptoms and not the underlying cause. It is easy to say what you don't want, less easy to say what you do. If all the fixes in the world would not make you PvP again, then while your opinion is valid, I would concentrate any effort on those who were still willing and ask them what would make them get into PvP again. Not saying you are to blame, only that the effort might not be worth the reward
But thats what I was asking - what would make you start again? There is no point treating the symptoms and not the underlying cause. It is easy to say what you don't want, less easy to say what you do. If all the fixes in the world would not make you PvP again, then while your opinion is valid, I would concentrate any effort on those who were still willing and ask them what would make them get into PvP again. Not saying you are to blame, only that the effort might not be worth the reward
Good points. In answer, combat is favourable to Glomdoring because vitals pressure > affs pressure. This is why I don't want to play ball. Now - I don't want Glomdoring to be nerfed, I'm not really on board with the 'nerf bleed' stuff - I want to have other vitals kills become viable. Either give warriors (and stag druids?) the tools to pull off health kills, or remove some of the things that prevent them from pulling it off. Everyone has warriors, so making them good helps every org. Then look at the magic based guilds and see if they can be given tools for a vitals kill, or at least something like Hallifaxes Timequake, which has obviously been a recent major success and good step towards equalising things.
I suppose the question is - what needs to be fixed to make people start trying at PvP again?
If all this stuff gets changed - and Magnagora and Hallifax have had some pretty major overhauls in the last year - and there is still no PvP because another reason gets put forward, then it is not PvP that is broken (well it may be but no amount of fixing anything is going to cure the problem)
First, Hallifax nor Magnagora has had "major" overhauls. Nihilism and Necromancy was overhauled and was almost immediate nerfed. Hallifax had an Institute overhaul, so literally two gaurdian classes. People have begged for Halli nerfs already which is laughable. Balance issues mean nothing without an active playerbase on both sides. Numbers > Balance, but balance is very important and needs to be addressed too.
A treacherous and potentially difficult thing, the admin need to make orgs want to go after other orgs that will actually challenge them.
For the game, the ideal alliance layout really is one where both sides are of similar strength. This way your combatants should be able to get regular fight while also being able to help smaller orgs grow their combatant population until it gets to a point they become rivals.
Glomdoring has Bleed and Mana kill superiority. Both tie into each other, mind, so there is that. All Glom classes can add bleed to some extend...from Warriors (obviously) who can heavily capitalize on it if left alone (Pureblade). To Harbiners can sing bleed effects and manabarbs to punish curing of it, Octaves stopping the curing of that particular aff, amongst all the other aurics. Shadowdancers spamming Aeon via Choke while Banshee+Redcaps apply mana drains and Bleeding (mana drain indirectly to cure), feeding Barghasts to boost damage output for a time once 'charged' from causing bleeding, and all the Shadow twisting granting aeon and an in-line source of Asthma. List goes on, honestly best designed synergy for the mass focus on group combat and would be better served acting as the model the other orgs should have their classes redesigned to match with how each can work towards an independant kill route pileup that even if every insta kill attempt fails...will still take them down. (Bleeding, Mana-Toading, Health from Bleed, etc) Not even going to touch on what Nekotai can dish out, monks in general are a fair given, but that double prone at BASE (so you're proned at any point they want to get you there, but most importantly at 0s into a given engagement, on if they desired), bleed bursts-hemo proc, etc.
Magnagora could have Bruising and Dust to work off it, minor use via mana kills IF we had Nihilists ever around able to Wrack but it's no insta kill like Celest's Absolve. Bruising seems harder to build and has generally far fewer sources to build from regardless and doesn't proc save on a cooldown based on the targets offensive actions...once per combo for a time after the nerf it took when EVER move would proc bruising in its entirety....and movement which has no cooldown to punish spam runners, but able to just be spam clot and far less negative impact should it be removed that way compared to Bleeding as again, no insta exists in Mag based off half or lower mana, just a damage burst. Damage to straight health output (nerfed by various 'fixes' over the years, Vitality to all, and Illself which was thankfully fixed most recently so that was good for all), with heavy dust stacking to TRY and push for the absurdly hard to hit kill routes available to Necromancers only....no other class in Mag can really work with Dust stacking to get an insta, though QueensLament for Cacophony doing a burst damage (that then clears ALL said plague-dust affs when used so it's a one-shot) comes somewhat close. Just doesn't quite finish the job, is the problem...always felt like Mag can get right up to the gate, but then the bar is bugged and won't let our toll pass let us slide through for one reason or another. Unlike Glom's synergy, dust stacking has a few nice affs in it but will NOT kill the target on its own.
Hallifax has Timequake or whatever the nil we're calling it now with the new system being introduced, Timeflux?...and Aeon-centric focus. Aeon itself was nerfed as it ONLY effects movement and curing rather than everything like it used to, while both communes still have Sap that works as old Aeon and different curative. Both aspects of Hallifax's build is Steam based...which admittedly shunts much of what their Warriors or Monks can dish out as non-supportative as those Classes don't contribute. Halli bards have been good from what I've seen, but so few I've ever really seen beyond Yarith, I cannot offer much input on that...@Maligorn, @Innon, @Eadei...you three are the resident experts on Hallifax capabilities, best to speak on this. Institute getting its rework, and an effective one by the looks of it thanks to Aeonics changes, allows for the rest of the Classes to be altered to match their synergy, with the heavy Steam based focus....phys classes gaining means to offer assistance there, else slowing down the curing via that route being best. Along with Celest, thematically working towards Ego kills may be a good route to take it as well. Steam aff stacking allows for some strong affs piled in there, if from a narrower source of applicators available due to the magical or auric nature of them thematically, but again will not kill the target on their own. Manabarbs and Powerspikes being the exception, healthleech COULD but...hardly equatable to all else.
Gaudiguch is based on Slush based, but so damned chaotic...fitting for a city of Flame based on Chaos as a theme with their access to the Cosmic Plane of Vortex. However, means much of what they need, will be heavily RNG based. Illuminati is one of the strongest classes in the game, but hampered by this fact more than any other, with only real advantage over MDs and SDs being that their mass of ents need to be targeted individually rather than a common moniker like 'fae', so take longer to kill. Limited access to Aeon as well, Tarot being the primary means for it for them, compared to Institute, but more on par to Nihilists of Mag save with more diversified ents and harder to hamper with a Nymph mask or denizen targeting due to multiple targets. Remains the RNG nature of Para that hampers most of what they can do. Now we get to the other side of it, their focus IS on Slush, while half the city needs to rely on ice as ablaze/burns is cured through that. Synergy gets divided into two focuses rather than complimentary, and no aff in Slush or Ice tables bridges the gap, with the exception of DamagedThroat that I hope their new monks can dish out as an Ice cure that also stops Slush sipping....but ONE class in the whole city can offer that. Warriors could, depending on spec (Pureblade and Blademaster, via SlitThroat, both requiring Heavy Wounds to apply so you will NOT get that easily in the fast paced engagements group combat especially revolves around), but timing is a factor. Burns focus could get the kill, if some of their focus was switched to that, TemporaryInsanity somehow switched to an Ice cure (baaad idea) else built off burn sources from Pyromancers, newmonks, etc, could get them closer to be on par with Glomdoring's bleed and mana synergy. Biggest issue is that, intentional I think, haphazard and chaotic design of their classes in general though. @Malarious, @Steingrim, @Dys as the primary experts more familiar with the nuances of Gaudiguch, best for you to help me out here for specifics, accuracy being more important than my outside observations.
Celest....the odd egg. No real synergy build to speak of, but a number of singular, very strong skills. Great for burst lols, but harder to fit with the argument of synergy across an entire org for design. Inquisition is hella strong....HATE that it strips even Lichseed despite that def costing Power, and that stupid-long stun it has...but on its own, it will NOT kill the target. Tear of Shallah, you won't get away with popping it, and Judgement cheese, despite many attempts at just that over the years. Aquamancer melds passively, PASSIVELY, stripping Waterbreathe and Waterwalk with flows drawing targets to the centre, the only Mage build with such a powerful attribute, even if the flows has ironically worked against them quite a few times, rather than helped, due to Centre not being moved mid-battle to compensate for changing battle flow across meld locations. Aquachemancer+Dreamweaver is perhaps the strongest, most absurd combination in the game, due to strong passive builds on select affs assisting in ego drain abilities....both active and passive a la Dreambeast. Cantors being able to imbue their songs with Aeon so they have access without having to take up Tarot. It feels like a lot of neat little toys had been given over the years when desired, but no real through to overall scheme. Makes Celest classes strong in select scenarios, but lacking in that overall strength needed for proper balance to keep their own people engaged for the longer term. Working towards freezing the target for Preservation, Mana drains for Absolve, having Shackles for....some reason....Inquisition. Shiny toys to stand out, but no real fluidity in design seems to be present. There hopefully is a lot I am missing, @Romaan, @Minkahmet, you'd be the best ones to speak on this. @Auriella if you still play, you did well with the Aquachist+Dreamweaver combo, and thus best positioned to speak on it here.
Serenwilde. Ah Serenwilde. There was a time we saw a Seren meld, EVEN with Glomdoring's budding reworks that got them out of the former ditch of uselessness they used to be stuck in, into the powerhouse they are now...that we feared to engage. The biggest strength was honestly Sap+passive paralysis granted by the Hartstone meld+Druid beast inherent being an active knockup 1/10s that can work mid-tic for Treelife letting their Druids actually work on the Sap focus that Glommie druids just cannot do the same level of focus despite also having Sap. Split teams, one on the ground, one in the trees to 'catch' the target and apply the Sap, absolutely brutal. Once Paralysis got its hit, no longer stopping all actions till cured, only affecting movement attempts to escape rather than Cleanse, curing, counter-hindering etc it used to...Sap became far less biting though still a potent tool in the Druids arsenal. Mutterings that Sap is to be eventually removed entirely however, forced a lot of the old combatants to try and find SOME way to compensate and not coming up with much, with the current build available. Mage rework will hopefully resolve this, so...till then. However, synergy? There really isn't any. Shofangi are arguably one of the stronger Monk builds, able to grapple and hinder-prone a target with the most effective outside of Nekotai's double leg break at base, but able to do so without Power use. Moondancers are a weaker version of Shadowdancers as they currently stand despite sharing a lot of the same fae...Wane just not having the same potency as current Choke for instance, and more conditional restrictions. Rest of it comes off as bland, general classes with no real 'vision' for what to aim for as a collective group. @Feyr, @Enyalida, @Everiine (even if you don't fight these days, an ear to the ground you are known to keep and thus insight is always appreciated), and ironically @Avurekhos can discuss specifics for what I am missing in this, and perhaps suggestions to reverse this snowballing effect detracting for the Serenwilde.
tl;dr: Quick hashdown of all the orgs and current models as I am personally aware. Glomdoring is complained about....but since it's proven just how damned effective the model is, let's start figuring out BALANCED suggestions...either through the new Envoy reporting system, else suggestions for special reports for after the general Mage rework (though some parts to be included with said class overhaul, obviously), that we all can get this game back on track.
After that, we can discuss getting the player base on board....foundations first, build to glory after. The people I've named can speak for their respective orgs, ways to perhaps make small, short term suggested fixes to bring things in-line per said org to work as a group in synergy, and we can work out how this would impact the overall balance of things. Populations will adjust accordingly, over time, after that.
Yes. Wall of text....please read it, I am not an expert in everything, so take the opportunity to suggest constructive things to FIX this game. Admins listening to them or not (perceived bias, or more likely just inability TO due to limited coding resources/time, they ARE people after all, not damned robots or slaves), it can still act as a basis moving forward.
Once the mechanical side of things is adjusted...alliance shifts, or lack of alliances, can certainly be addressed. Had Magnagora and Glomdoring remained allied, or somehow decided to ally now...game would just grind to a damned halt. No one'd be left to really fight. Even if people bailed from orgs for the others....RP ambitions being a valid reason because all the openings...mechanics still would prevent much headway no matter how smart or skilled or even artied out they are. So...this being addressed first can get the ball rolling to getting Lusternia on its feet I think.
I don't know if it's coming or not, but one of the suggestions for the Hartstone in the melder rework was to change allergies into a mechanic themed on the forest getting increasingly angry with the target to some effect.
Alternatively, or in complement to that, there was also stuff like... maybe we have an "overcharged" mode (use the fury to shapeshift temporarily for super power or the like) or maybe there's something that can be built on ourselves, or other seren classes do so. Not sure how that has developed, if at all, but part of the hope was to also introduce a uniquely seren mechanism that we could build off of.
Gaudiguch is based on Slush based, but so damned chaotic...fitting for a city of Flame based on Chaos as a theme with their access to the Cosmic Plane of Vortex. However, means much of what they need, will be heavily RNG based. Illuminati is one of the strongest classes in the game, but hampered by this fact more than any other, with only real advantage over MDs and SDs being that their mass of ents need to be targeted individually rather than a common moniker like 'fae', so take longer to kill. Limited access to Aeon as well, Tarot being the primary means for it for them, compared to Institute, but more on par to Nihilists of Mag save with more diversified ents and harder to hamper with a Nymph mask or denizen targeting due to multiple targets. Remains the RNG nature of Para that hampers most of what they can do. Now we get to the other side of it, their focus IS on Slush, while half the city needs to rely on ice as ablaze/burns is cured through that. Synergy gets divided into two focuses rather than complimentary, and no aff in Slush or Ice tables bridges the gap, with the exception of DamagedThroat that I hope their new monks can dish out as an Ice cure that also stops Slush sipping....but ONE class in the whole city can offer that. Warriors could, depending on spec (Pureblade and Blademaster, via SlitThroat, both requiring Heavy Wounds to apply so you will NOT get that easily in the fast paced engagements group combat especially revolves around), but timing is a factor. Burns focus could get the kill, if some of their focus was switched to that, TemporaryInsanity somehow switched to an Ice cure (baaad idea) else built off burn sources from Pyromancers, newmonks, etc, could get them closer to be on par with Glomdoring's bleed and mana synergy. Biggest issue is that, intentional I think, haphazard and chaotic design of their classes in general though. @Malarious, @Steingrim, @Dys as the primary experts more familiar with the nuances of Gaudiguch, best for you to help me out here for specifics, accuracy being more important than my outside observations.
Illuminati -used- to be one of the best classes about until a certain envoy suggested nerfs to -intentionally- underpower the class in a what he claimed was a two step program to make Illuminati a less passive build. He removed the majority of passive build but failed to ever include new active building of insanity. Leaving Illuminati in a very bad place in terms of killing power. Add to this there are things like karma blessings affecting this insanity build and a bigger reliance on easily killed ents (including the 5 power temporary one) this class is probably on the bottom of the pile for killing. It does have some neat support skills though. Also compared to my playing Celestine, Nihilist, Moondancer and Researcher. Ent control of Illuminati is a lot more complex then the others I played (eg one small mistake or even delay on a command can instantly reduce your build to 0).
Researchers actually got the skills that were removed from Illuminati for being to passive. And I would certainly place researchers well above Illuminati at this point.
Gaudiguch is based on Slush based, but so damned chaotic...fitting for a city of Flame based on Chaos as a theme with their access to the Cosmic Plane of Vortex. However, means much of what they need, will be heavily RNG based. Illuminati is one of the strongest classes in the game, but hampered by this fact more than any other, with only real advantage over MDs and SDs being that their mass of ents need to be targeted individually rather than a common moniker like 'fae', so take longer to kill. Limited access to Aeon as well, Tarot being the primary means for it for them, compared to Institute, but more on par to Nihilists of Mag save with more diversified ents and harder to hamper with a Nymph mask or denizen targeting due to multiple targets. Remains the RNG nature of Para that hampers most of what they can do. Now we get to the other side of it, their focus IS on Slush, while half the city needs to rely on ice as ablaze/burns is cured through that. Synergy gets divided into two focuses rather than complimentary, and no aff in Slush or Ice tables bridges the gap, with the exception of DamagedThroat that I hope their new monks can dish out as an Ice cure that also stops Slush sipping....but ONE class in the whole city can offer that. Warriors could, depending on spec (Pureblade and Blademaster, via SlitThroat, both requiring Heavy Wounds to apply so you will NOT get that easily in the fast paced engagements group combat especially revolves around), but timing is a factor. Burns focus could get the kill, if some of their focus was switched to that, TemporaryInsanity somehow switched to an Ice cure (baaad idea) else built off burn sources from Pyromancers, newmonks, etc, could get them closer to be on par with Glomdoring's bleed and mana synergy. Biggest issue is that, intentional I think, haphazard and chaotic design of their classes in general though. @Malarious, @Steingrim, @Dys as the primary experts more familiar with the nuances of Gaudiguch, best for you to help me out here for specifics, accuracy being more important than my outside observations.
Illuminati -used- to be one of the best classes about until a certain envoy suggested nerfs to -intentionally- underpower the class in a what he claimed was a two step program to make Illuminati a less passive build. He removed the majority of passive build but failed to ever include new active building of insanity. Leaving Illuminati in a very bad place in terms of killing power. Add to this there are things like karma blessings affecting this insanity build and a bigger reliance on easily killed ents (including the 5 power temporary one) this class is probably on the bottom of the pile for killing. It does have some neat support skills though. Also compared to my playing Celestine, Nihilist, Moondancer and Researcher. Ent control of Illuminati is a lot more complex then the others I played (eg one small mistake or even delay on a command can instantly reduce your build to 0).
Researchers actually got the skills that were removed from Illuminati for being to passive. And I would certainly place researchers well above Illuminati at this point.
This envoy change was literally one of the huge reasons for my first retire from Lusternia. It was a sad day to nerf a class with no real representation. I do not mean that offensively as I think you may had some time issues or maybe you tried and didn't win. Either way this was the day I realized the old envoy system was a sham.
If Hallifax can ever cultivate the numbers, right now timewarp synergy is in a good spot (especially because of things like CrypticFlux in Tessenchi, RedRubato from Symphonists (huge cold damage when timewarp stacks enough), and just the raw build power available in Institute now).
Aeromancers are on the fringe, but we knew that was going to happen before the rework, and we gave Orael the green light anyway. Aerochemantics, on the other hand, fits right in. Aeonics Sentinels provide another killswitch for Timewarp and steam affs besides with TemporalEdge. Tracking Sentinels provide a lot of utility.
Bleed/manakill synergy is still superior, because as some people have alluded to, timewarp isn't a deadly affliction by itself, plus multiple classes have instas based on mana - more problematically, the mana damage coming out of Glomdoring forces an impossible choice between your vitals focus. An ego killer, or an Axelord, or an Aquamancy Preserver would have a field day with Glomdoring as an ally.
But by no means is Hallifax a non-contender anymore.
In the case of Magnagora, I think they were hit with a lot of nerfs and I don't think that their Nihilist rework had the same "security" that both the Night Twist rework and the Institute rework had. Deathmarks have diminishing returns (what????) while timewarp, tempinsanity and mana drains/bleeding stacks don't. Their balance loss stacking method was quickly targeted by certain envoys, removing another tool from their toolbox. The Wrack killpath is a little undertuned from when I last saw it in action.
They have what they need to succeed, they just need these stupid restrictions that only apply to them to be removed. Also, bring back bal loss stacking - if it was okay for Bonecrusher Ectoplasm users pre-overhaul, it should be okay now.
They have what they need to succeed, they just need these stupid restrictions that only apply to them to be removed. Also, bring back bal loss stacking - if it was okay for Bonecrusher Ectoplasm users pre-overhaul, it should be okay now.
I think the decision to not stack balance loss hurt a lot more too, but Magnagora most.
Edit: Correction eq loss doesn't stack. Currently researching some of this .
Mag also gets touted as having this deathmark synergy and how great it is. It is so great, only 2/5 classes can even do anything to or with it, and that's only because ur'Guard have access to Necromancy. When it comes to the plague affs, only the Cacophony have a real way to make use of them, unless we're going to speak on the fringe case of maybe 100 bonus hemo if a Ninja hits a target with pox. But we have no real org themed synergy, the closest we get is, "Hey, ignore your killpath entirely and just focus on this one thing, while I do damage based on that." That's the summary of Mag's best combo (Ninjakari + BoneCrusher).
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
@Shango I keep my ear to the ground on many things, but unfortunately, combat synergy and skills is one of those things I was never able to grasp (which is why I have always sucked at combat).
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
@Shango I keep my ear to the ground on many things, but unfortunately, combat synergy and skills is one of those things I was never able to grasp (which is why I have always sucked at combat).
Well. NOW'S the time to fix that. I feel like a bit of reworking across the board may be in order to fix things, so getting in while the forge is heating up, mm?
Would a separate thread or threads for each orgs synergy spitballing be suitable, you all think? As detailed above...there are a lot of issues that have built up over the years. Addressing what they are, and ideas on maybe how to fix them, is the first step that really needs to be taken here.
@Shango I keep my ear to the ground on many things, but unfortunately, combat synergy and skills is one of those things I was never able to grasp (which is why I have always sucked at combat).
Well. NOW'S the time to fix that. I feel like a bit of reworking across the board may be in order to fix things, so getting in while the forge is heating up, mm?
Would a separate thread or threads for each orgs synergy spitballing be suitable, you all think? As detailed above...there are a lot of issues that have built up over the years. Addressing what they are, and ideas on maybe how to fix them, is the first step that really needs to be taken here.
I think each should have their own thread that way if we need to compile and either A. Create reports or B. Ask admins to do a sweeping "synergy overhaul". It will be easier if the info is not broken up.
I don't feel Glomdoring requires a thread, for obvious reasons. Please post in each? More perspectives and input, the potentially better off we'll be. Even if it's just off in-system Envoy reports moving forward rather than admin directly assisting.
Comments
Exactly the only thing stopping it is us and a few chelp scrolls.
If every org made a similar move at the same time, I think there would certainly be issues vis-a-vis disparate populations and the probable de facto "least bad enemy" based partnerships but it might possibly be workable long term. Without that kind of unanimous motion *and* some concrete benefits to create incentives to stand alone it is not possible.
Even if every player agrees on it, all of the games mechanics (ALL of them) are structured such that it's best to have 2 alliances, two "parties" in every competition, and so this will always be a status quo we return to in the longer term.
I agree with the part everyone would need to dissolve at once, but I disagree about the mechanics. It is literally the opposite. Every mechanic is literally not created for 1v1. The game is not 1v1. It is what we the players made it into. The scoring system all score individually for single orgs not alliances.
(no sarcasm, we need to be directed, sheeple)
Accountability is necessary.
Accountability is necessary.
If all this stuff gets changed - and Magnagora and Hallifax have had some pretty major overhauls in the last year - and there is still no PvP because another reason gets put forward, then it is not PvP that is broken (well it may be but no amount of fixing anything is going to cure the problem)
The admin can to some extent fix population by showering love on those under represented - we all know people are suckers for active gods!
First, Hallifax nor Magnagora has had "major" overhauls. Nihilism and Necromancy was overhauled and was almost immediate nerfed. Hallifax had an Institute overhaul, so literally two gaurdian classes. People have begged for Halli nerfs already which is laughable. Balance issues mean nothing without an active playerbase on both sides. Numbers > Balance, but balance is very important and needs to be addressed too.
For the game, the ideal alliance layout really is one where both sides are of similar strength. This way your combatants should be able to get regular fight while also being able to help smaller orgs grow their combatant population until it gets to a point they become rivals.
Magnagora could have Bruising and Dust to work off it, minor use via mana kills IF we had Nihilists ever around able to Wrack but it's no insta kill like Celest's Absolve. Bruising seems harder to build and has generally far fewer sources to build from regardless and doesn't proc save on a cooldown based on the targets offensive actions...once per combo for a time after the nerf it took when EVER move would proc bruising in its entirety....and movement which has no cooldown to punish spam runners, but able to just be spam clot and far less negative impact should it be removed that way compared to Bleeding as again, no insta exists in Mag based off half or lower mana, just a damage burst. Damage to straight health output (nerfed by various 'fixes' over the years, Vitality to all, and Illself which was thankfully fixed most recently so that was good for all), with heavy dust stacking to TRY and push for the absurdly hard to hit kill routes available to Necromancers only....no other class in Mag can really work with Dust stacking to get an insta, though QueensLament for Cacophony doing a burst damage (that then clears ALL said plague-dust affs when used so it's a one-shot) comes somewhat close. Just doesn't quite finish the job, is the problem...always felt like Mag can get right up to the gate, but then the bar is bugged and won't let our toll pass let us slide through for one reason or another. Unlike Glom's synergy, dust stacking has a few nice affs in it but will NOT kill the target on its own.
Hallifax has Timequake or whatever the nil we're calling it now with the new system being introduced, Timeflux?...and Aeon-centric focus. Aeon itself was nerfed as it ONLY effects movement and curing rather than everything like it used to, while both communes still have Sap that works as old Aeon and different curative. Both aspects of Hallifax's build is Steam based...which admittedly shunts much of what their Warriors or Monks can dish out as non-supportative as those Classes don't contribute. Halli bards have been good from what I've seen, but so few I've ever really seen beyond Yarith, I cannot offer much input on that...@Maligorn, @Innon, @Eadei...you three are the resident experts on Hallifax capabilities, best to speak on this. Institute getting its rework, and an effective one by the looks of it thanks to Aeonics changes, allows for the rest of the Classes to be altered to match their synergy, with the heavy Steam based focus....phys classes gaining means to offer assistance there, else slowing down the curing via that route being best. Along with Celest, thematically working towards Ego kills may be a good route to take it as well. Steam aff stacking allows for some strong affs piled in there, if from a narrower source of applicators available due to the magical or auric nature of them thematically, but again will not kill the target on their own. Manabarbs and Powerspikes being the exception, healthleech COULD but...hardly equatable to all else.
Gaudiguch is based on Slush based, but so damned chaotic...fitting for a city of Flame based on Chaos as a theme with their access to the Cosmic Plane of Vortex. However, means much of what they need, will be heavily RNG based. Illuminati is one of the strongest classes in the game, but hampered by this fact more than any other, with only real advantage over MDs and SDs being that their mass of ents need to be targeted individually rather than a common moniker like 'fae', so take longer to kill. Limited access to Aeon as well, Tarot being the primary means for it for them, compared to Institute, but more on par to Nihilists of Mag save with more diversified ents and harder to hamper with a Nymph mask or denizen targeting due to multiple targets. Remains the RNG nature of Para that hampers most of what they can do. Now we get to the other side of it, their focus IS on Slush, while half the city needs to rely on ice as ablaze/burns is cured through that. Synergy gets divided into two focuses rather than complimentary, and no aff in Slush or Ice tables bridges the gap, with the exception of DamagedThroat that I hope their new monks can dish out as an Ice cure that also stops Slush sipping....but ONE class in the whole city can offer that. Warriors could, depending on spec (Pureblade and Blademaster, via SlitThroat, both requiring Heavy Wounds to apply so you will NOT get that easily in the fast paced engagements group combat especially revolves around), but timing is a factor. Burns focus could get the kill, if some of their focus was switched to that, TemporaryInsanity somehow switched to an Ice cure (baaad idea) else built off burn sources from Pyromancers, newmonks, etc, could get them closer to be on par with Glomdoring's bleed and mana synergy. Biggest issue is that, intentional I think, haphazard and chaotic design of their classes in general though. @Malarious, @Steingrim, @Dys as the primary experts more familiar with the nuances of Gaudiguch, best for you to help me out here for specifics, accuracy being more important than my outside observations.
Celest....the odd egg. No real synergy build to speak of, but a number of singular, very strong skills. Great for burst lols, but harder to fit with the argument of synergy across an entire org for design. Inquisition is hella strong....HATE that it strips even Lichseed despite that def costing Power, and that stupid-long stun it has...but on its own, it will NOT kill the target. Tear of Shallah, you won't get away with popping it, and Judgement cheese, despite many attempts at just that over the years. Aquamancer melds passively, PASSIVELY, stripping Waterbreathe and Waterwalk with flows drawing targets to the centre, the only Mage build with such a powerful attribute, even if the flows has ironically worked against them quite a few times, rather than helped, due to Centre not being moved mid-battle to compensate for changing battle flow across meld locations. Aquachemancer+Dreamweaver is perhaps the strongest, most absurd combination in the game, due to strong passive builds on select affs assisting in ego drain abilities....both active and passive a la Dreambeast. Cantors being able to imbue their songs with Aeon so they have access without having to take up Tarot. It feels like a lot of neat little toys had been given over the years when desired, but no real through to overall scheme. Makes Celest classes strong in select scenarios, but lacking in that overall strength needed for proper balance to keep their own people engaged for the longer term. Working towards freezing the target for Preservation, Mana drains for Absolve, having Shackles for....some reason....Inquisition. Shiny toys to stand out, but no real fluidity in design seems to be present. There hopefully is a lot I am missing, @Romaan, @Minkahmet, you'd be the best ones to speak on this. @Auriella if you still play, you did well with the Aquachist+Dreamweaver combo, and thus best positioned to speak on it here.
Serenwilde. Ah Serenwilde. There was a time we saw a Seren meld, EVEN with Glomdoring's budding reworks that got them out of the former ditch of uselessness they used to be stuck in, into the powerhouse they are now...that we feared to engage. The biggest strength was honestly Sap+passive paralysis granted by the Hartstone meld+Druid beast inherent being an active knockup 1/10s that can work mid-tic for Treelife letting their Druids actually work on the Sap focus that Glommie druids just cannot do the same level of focus despite also having Sap. Split teams, one on the ground, one in the trees to 'catch' the target and apply the Sap, absolutely brutal. Once Paralysis got its hit, no longer stopping all actions till cured, only affecting movement attempts to escape rather than Cleanse, curing, counter-hindering etc it used to...Sap became far less biting though still a potent tool in the Druids arsenal. Mutterings that Sap is to be eventually removed entirely however, forced a lot of the old combatants to try and find SOME way to compensate and not coming up with much, with the current build available. Mage rework will hopefully resolve this, so...till then. However, synergy? There really isn't any. Shofangi are arguably one of the stronger Monk builds, able to grapple and hinder-prone a target with the most effective outside of Nekotai's double leg break at base, but able to do so without Power use. Moondancers are a weaker version of Shadowdancers as they currently stand despite sharing a lot of the same fae...Wane just not having the same potency as current Choke for instance, and more conditional restrictions. Rest of it comes off as bland, general classes with no real 'vision' for what to aim for as a collective group. @Feyr, @Enyalida, @Everiine (even if you don't fight these days, an ear to the ground you are known to keep and thus insight is always appreciated), and ironically @Avurekhos can discuss specifics for what I am missing in this, and perhaps suggestions to reverse this snowballing effect detracting for the Serenwilde.
tl;dr: Quick hashdown of all the orgs and current models as I am personally aware. Glomdoring is complained about....but since it's proven just how damned effective the model is, let's start figuring out BALANCED suggestions...either through the new Envoy reporting system, else suggestions for special reports for after the general Mage rework (though some parts to be included with said class overhaul, obviously), that we all can get this game back on track.
After that, we can discuss getting the player base on board....foundations first, build to glory after. The people I've named can speak for their respective orgs, ways to perhaps make small, short term suggested fixes to bring things in-line per said org to work as a group in synergy, and we can work out how this would impact the overall balance of things. Populations will adjust accordingly, over time, after that.
Once the mechanical side of things is adjusted...alliance shifts, or lack of alliances, can certainly be addressed. Had Magnagora and Glomdoring remained allied, or somehow decided to ally now...game would just grind to a damned halt. No one'd be left to really fight. Even if people bailed from orgs for the others....RP ambitions being a valid reason because all the openings...mechanics still would prevent much headway no matter how smart or skilled or even artied out they are. So...this being addressed first can get the ball rolling to getting Lusternia on its feet I think.
Alternatively, or in complement to that, there was also stuff like... maybe we have an "overcharged" mode (use the fury to shapeshift temporarily for super power or the like) or maybe there's something that can be built on ourselves, or other seren classes do so. Not sure how that has developed, if at all, but part of the hope was to also introduce a uniquely seren mechanism that we could build off of.
This envoy change was literally one of the huge reasons for my first retire from Lusternia. It was a sad day to nerf a class with no real representation. I do not mean that offensively as I think you may had some time issues or maybe you tried and didn't win. Either way this was the day I realized the old envoy system was a sham.
I think the decision to not stack balance loss hurt a lot more too, but Magnagora most.
Edit: Correction eq loss doesn't stack. Currently researching some of this .
Would a separate thread or threads for each orgs synergy spitballing be suitable, you all think? As detailed above...there are a lot of issues that have built up over the years. Addressing what they are, and ideas on maybe how to fix them, is the first step that really needs to be taken here.
I think each should have their own thread that way if we need to compile and either A. Create reports or B. Ask admins to do a sweeping "synergy overhaul". It will be easier if the info is not broken up.
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3605/org-class-synergy-magnagora/p1?new=1
Hallifax:
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3606/org-class-synergy-hallifax/p1?new=1
Gaudiguch:
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3607/org-class-synergy-gaudiguch/p1?new=1
Celest:
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3608/org-class-synergy-celest/p1?new=1
Serenwilde:
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3609/org-class-synergy-serenwilde/p1?new=1
I don't feel Glomdoring requires a thread, for obvious reasons. Please post in each? More perspectives and input, the potentially better off we'll be. Even if it's just off in-system Envoy reports moving forward rather than admin directly assisting.