Hence a combat score suggestion. Tarken has combat value 5, so you could fight him with 5 people who are value 1. Etc.
Eh, this is literally saying that Tarken is 5 times better than the average person. I think this is really the viewpoint, and if that is the case then we will never be able to agree there is an issue. We will continue to put our heads in the sand, and ignore the dwindling "Halli/Mag/Seren". If only we would be positive and git good instead of moving on. The point is Hallifax/Mag/Seren has PvP population issues, so much so that I am ignoring playing my favorite Org because I don't want to further the divide. However, let's ignore the data and continue to allow this side to lose valuable players. Winning by default is not a win in my books.
You gotta love the idea, though, that not only does our side have 5 people to send against Tarken, but one additional person for each member of Glomdoring or Celest or Gaudiguch that show up, so it'll be "even". I mean... Jesus. If we could do that, there would be no problem at all. It's almost as if one side is entirely divorced from the reality of what being on the other side is like.
Honestly, Innon, I wouldn't worry about the divide at this point. PVP doesn't exist, and no one wants it back.
The way I'm picturing it, is simply that the alliances are technically still doing what has been done throughout Lusternia's history. That is fighting each other's anathemas, the fact of the matter and yes the reality is the lacking of combatants on your end. I could go into some examples of what I mean but it'd be obvious to what I just said. I mean, Avurekhos resurrected his dream IronHart with a twist no? Also, why not consider advertising other mudding friends of yours to get them into Lusternia and play on your team) That'd be a strong suggestion whereas numbers are concerned and I still suggest that there is some encouragement to teach Serenwilders how to contribute to your causes. It's not to say that I am noticing one or two Serens being proactive in your alliance's causes, but that'd be another great boon if competitiveness and gaining ground is concerned. Last thing you'd want to do is put even MORE stress on the admin as I have seen over the years when complaints come up. I'm not saying I didn't contribute, but I don't go running to the forums at every minute's turn about it either. Just look at yourselves and your allies and evaluate what is lacking there as well is all.
Uh, yeah, the combatants on our end gave up after being hopelessly outnumbered 20 times too many, and most of them have fled to other muds/other games. For I while I protested, but it's really not fair for me to do so when logging on is a chore and even when we have some numbers, it won't be enough. The last time I remember being able to batphone successfully was during the last Wildnodes, and yeah... that went as expected. So why should we bother?
As for my other mudding friends, they all play Aetolia, and they're aware that Lusternia has half the numbers and too much forum anger and salt (unless you're trading it for goop of course). I can't convince friends to play a game that I barely enjoy. As it is, I am tired of the suggestions that the problem is just that we suck, that we're negative, or that we just need to try harder to force people to play/pk who don't want to. I'm sorry for the admin, as I think for the most part it isn't their fault, but we keep saying the same things over and over, and getting the same useless suggestions back. Edit: From other players, mostly.
Now, I am no great combatant. I also don't have the time right now to sit and work out strategies and do testing and write code for it, let alone force other people to do it, too. Even if I did, it would mean less time of the only things I still enjoy in this game: Writing and roleplaying with people. And with the increasingly smaller population of willing combatants, I'm supposed to do more of what I don't have time for already to make up for their slack, too? This is literally what 'the snowball effect' means. I can't fix it myself, and neither can anyone else on my side. I don't know what you think you'd even do differently, but I'd love to see evidence that it'd work.
Although it may seem irrelevant to you, even small tricks blossom into the larger scheme of things to work out. Like how Saz and I are able to shut down a few key players on Glomdoring side when we worked together cohesively and figured out it is possible and how to wiggle what throws a crux in their offense and that is all I'm going to say about it. You have to be willing to spend time on your craft and make it work and not be so simple enough to give up at the first death or two. Now if you magnify that same critical thinking with the next person and the next and so on..it'll click and you expand your discoveries to others. That's the Hallifaxian researcher in me giving advice to you and of course, you don't have to take my word or anyone's word for it as they say in Hallifax, but the burden of proof and to discover that will be the ones you'll have to provide. No excuses.
This takes one major assumption. That we do not theory craft. My favorite part of this game is theory craft. I do it with anyone I can. Keth is always right there assisting with my nonsense. I always discuss theory with Eadei and Avurekhos and several other Mag's and Halli's. We are literally constantly looking for edges. Bashing us down isn't fun for anyone, but keep things the same if you wish. Winning by default isn't really winning.
This is why I say "it may seem irrelevant" to cut out the assumption of anything, particularly the word "may" as I can't prove that it is true or not. All I'm saying in the previous post is to keep chipping at it and it'll eventually come to you on what works and what doesn't.
Although it may seem irrelevant to you, even small tricks blossom into the larger scheme of things to work out. Like how Saz and I are able to shut down a few key players on Glomdoring side when we worked together cohesively and figured out it is possible and how to wiggle what throws a crux in their offense and that is all I'm going to say about it. You have to be willing to spend time on your craft and make it work and not be so simple enough to give up at the first death or two. Now if you magnify that same critical thinking with the next person and the next and so on..it'll click and you expand your discoveries to others. That's the Hallifaxian researcher in me giving advice to you and of course, you don't have to take my word or anyone's word for it as they say in Hallifax, but the burden of proof and to discover that will be the ones you'll have to provide. No excuses. Also...I mean if you can't be bothered with trying to work out code/offense that's fine, but it really feels to me that...why even bother to complain about it? As its easier to complain than to exhaust all options in the meantime or while complaining.
No. No, no, no - to all of this. "I can't be bothered to?" I would love to have a few hours to sit down and work out code or offense. I said *right now*. As in, I have an assignment due tomorrow, another due at the end of this week, another due tonight(so why I'm wasting time arguing with you is another question) and a major paper/experiment due next week. ...And it's probably going to be that way for several more weeks.
The point is, *I* should not have to be the one responsible for doing everything you're talking about. I can't be. And increasingly, other people don't want to be, BECAUSE IT DOESN"T HELP. We are still outnumbered, and all the brilliant tactics only go so far. Get your head out of your posterior and stop implying that we just suck or we're lazy. Innon and Eadei and Aramel and Maligorn and Keegan and Saz all worked hard to do what they could, as did Avurekhos, Vatul, etc.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
Lol. @Minkahmet you wouldn't be saying this if you were still in HalliCelestSeren vs GlomMagGaudi.
I remember who you were in Hallifax and now as Minkahmet. You're a pretty textbook example of a fairweather fighter. Your input is tainted by the fact that you're a huge hypocrite - telling us to get our friends to join in, when your attitude is to lose a fight and quit.
Quite frankly you're the one with the head up your posterior. If that's how you feel then you'll keep failing at what you do and you may as well just do something that you are good at simply and I'm pretty much done with this nonsense of getting into one's feelings. Until next time.
It needs to be said, people's feelings are actually pretty significant here.
We're human, it's pretty simple, positive feelings are what enable people to feel that it's worth it to put in the effort to do all these things. The negative experiences lead to negative feelings, the longer that loop continues the less desirable it is to put in effort because it feels less and less like it's worth the time.
'Nothing to do' because that group love their combat....but worked and continue to work hard, to stifle balance in the game between orgs to allow anyone to want to engage. As has been stated here in this very thread, people are not willing to entertain those complaining of nothing to do for a reason that Timequakes very much won't do a thing to address. Another chore? Joy. And that IS what combat these days feels like if not of a particular Org, a chore, even for me.
Hopefully after Timequakes, and mage revamp (that really should've been the actual top priority, unless ideas for it just haven't been hashed out fully yet)...things will be fixed. MUCH of the complaints and stated beliefs of bias and imbalance stem more from frustration of perceptions, than hopefully any actual reality. So admins and players alike, patience, mm? I'm with you all that feel the frustrations of this game right now, really I am...but even if things did a complete 180 and everything was being worked on to balance things out to be enjoyable by all properly, it's going to take quite some time to fix things.
'Nothing to do' because that group love their combat....but worked and continue to work hard, to stifle balance in the game between orgs to allow anyone to want to engage. As has been stated here in this very thread, people are not willing to entertain those complaining of nothing to do for a reason that Timequakes very much won't do a thing to address. Another chore? Joy. And that IS what combat these days feels like if not of a particular Org, a chore, even for me.
Hopefully after Timequakes, and mage revamp (that really should've been the actual top priority, unless ideas for it just haven't been hashed out fully yet)...things will be fixed. MUCH of the complaints and stated beliefs of bias and imbalance stem more from frustration of perceptions, than hopefully any actual reality. So admins and players alike, patience, mm? I'm with you all that feel the frustrations of this game right now, really I am...but even if things did a complete 180 and everything was being worked on to balance things out to be enjoyable by all properly, it's going to take quite some time to fix things.
Yeah, but that time isn't going to get any shorter. Getting the overhaul done means that all of the orgs would have updated melders.
Doing a "180" on this means rather than spending any time on envoying solutions for the current context, the reports can focus on what the context is going to become. I know some of the things Seren was asking/hoping for could be really important moving forward.
It's also just a better flow in terms of the messaging tbh. Like doesn't... "We've finished the melder overhaul, we've updated the classes so orgs are more equivalent, so now we're going to release a new pvp mechanic" sound better than "We've released a new pvp mechanic, we'll be looking at the org imbalance later"
Batphoning is really only a problem when you are trying to ninja domoth which is literally just avoiding conflict. Imo, that entire mechanic is flawed in such a small population.
Let's be real. Who is to blame? We are. Alliances are run by players. Every action we take has consequences. Look at Ascension. Malarious literally made it fun and competitive. Yes, we lost, but it was because we lost. Losing is okay. The issue is alliances are too set in stone. There should be more disputes between orgs. Each org on its own will have lulls and weakness (even Glom). Let's be real Gaudi and Celest will never leave Glom's side, but if you truly wanted PvP then split the alliances. Imagine a wild nodes where it was an actual free for all. Honestly, why is Hallifax so cozy with Magnagora? Serenwilde should hate everyone. Celest should want to take it's place as the "rightful" place a king and punish any that step out of line. Magnagora should be wanting to rule us all with an iron fist and cull the weak. Gaudiguch should be a wild card playing by they're own rules. Glom should be focused on spreading the wyrd everywhere. It is the entire basis of the game, but because we want the safe and sure wins we create these 3v3 alliances.
I would love to see villages where orgs would fight any org. I would like to see wildnodes have nodes ticking at different orgs spheres. This would make it chaotic, fun, and eventful.
Let's have an understanding between leaders that we keep raids and defenders between 1-2 players between raiders and defenders. I would gladly hang back. I have seen some Glom's do this before too.
We have an amazing lore. We have a great game. We have taken it and turned it two sides with little org importance.
This is just my opinion though.
Alliances stem from the fact that if you go at it alone a bigger org will come after you. If Gaudiguch where to go alone at a domoth it would not be just Hallifax coming after them, it would be Hallifax and Magnagora. Likewise if Hallifax goes at it alone a bigger org like Celest would go after them. This results in alliances. The fact alliances are so inflexible has multiple reasons.
Since Gaudi is the most recent to actively consider its alliance I'll show you my reasons for not changing alliance:
Allying with Hallifax would be a mess, we tried this before and phantheon went oh no you don't
As we were considering post ascension I took cross sections of engagements that were happening, in the majority of those engagements Glomdoring/Celest was at that time outnumbered (do note this was while I was around, I can't speak for other times)
The neutral route I wanted originally would result in not being able to participate in conflict at all, eg no villages, no domoths, no future timethings, no raiding. The only thing we might be able to do was flares and that is if nobody else showed up. Neutral = get bullied by everyone.
These are my reasons though, I am sure others have other reasons.
No one said this time that couldn't happen, so you're making an excuse for wanting to be on the side with superior numbers/won Ascension.
Not a chance. This time, I'm demanding evidence.
Neutral route only works if everyone agrees to it, sure.
None of this is about you, personally. The entire system is broken, and encourages choices that make it worse.
Perhaps you have not been paying attention in the mechanics between Ein and Czixi. I have. And having experienced first hand having your patron pissed at you for making an alliance. I am not going to advocate it when the other org has shown no interest. And for all your claims it is an excuse to remain with the top dog, I have yet to see Hallifax approach Gaudiguch since the ascension. The entire game knew IC and OOC that Gaudiguch was reconsidering their alliance and outside one or two people in Magnagora nobody tried to influence/lure Gaudiguch to their side.
You want evidence, read your logs from the first 2 weeks after ascension.
And I knew this wasn't about me personally, I was explaining why alliances in their current form exist and why Gaudiguch did not go for creating a 3th faction or join the other alliance.
So who actually gets to enjoy this system? Given the current bonus layout we'd logically expect those dominating domoths, flares, and villages to accelerate pretty quickly through the research which would in turn make them better at various things including the Timequakes leading to some snowballing.
You're old enough that you may remember that pretty much this exact argument was made about domoths.
Right now outside of certain situations few overly care about domoth blessings.
Seriously people, focus on the problem being all or nothing systems. Push for more systems where you make some headway for participation even if you do not 'win'.
Focus a bit less on Glom and more on the admin making pk competitive but non-zero-sum.
it’s a system with an ultimate reward that supports “griefing” smaller orgs. And the faster you get to that point the longer you can use those powers without being countered.
so I’m old enough to know it’ll be used cause players have been engaging in that sort of behaviour forever
Honestly, the refusal to even acknowledge there is an issue makes me want to go dorment. Keep ignoring the problem and kill the game. There are several solutions, but it would require Glom/Gaudi/Celest to give up your easy wins, but hey that shouldn't be an issue since you already got gud and stay positive, right? I'm willing to adjust alliances away from 3v3 to 2v2v2 or 1v1v1v1v1v1 or 1v1v1v1v2 or any variation. I am willing to sit out of fights to make odds even. I'm willing to theory craft, I am willing to spar, I am willing to buff or nerf, and I am willing change to any class to create a fair playing field. My question is what are you all willing to do to help? @everyone
Before this one gets locked, the bit where Mink said that you can get better by using smart strats is %100 true in the sense that it is possible to find ways to counter your opponent. But even when you find your little success with it, it had always been and it possibly still is an uphill battle. I guess that's where it gets tedious for most people. I don't believe either sides are currently using their skillsets to their possible maximum, but I also don't believe there's another org in the game that has the potential that Glomdoring has to unlock. So, if you're going into the race of get better until you see who comes out on top, it's the non-glom-whoever that's going to lose. It's unfun, and it feels like entertaining people in the end, that's why most people opt-out, including myself. I don't think Lusternia's conflict balance is decent enough for me to advertise it among my friends. Infact, I'm trying to get my friends, who're still participating, out of this mess to be honest.
Instead of advising people to be better losers, how about you guys be better winners and help fixing the game you're enjoying so much. Lusternia isn't the first game that I've been on the losing end, nor it will be the last, but it's the only game that I've seen killing itself for pushing away its losers this much.
edit: Typos. another edit: September 2017, Minkahmet's take on game balance and Glomdoring https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/178756 I think what was said in those lines and the lines those were quoted by Shaddus still stand true for the most part. I think most people echo the feeling of hitting a brickwall in the end. And after 2 years pass, you think things would get better, rightfully too I suppose? I'm not denying Orael's efforts/goodwill to answer the imbalance overall, but his own words imply that those steps are babysteps. Hopefully he will be the savior this game needs, but I have no plans to stay around long enough to witness it myself.
"Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."
While it sounds good and idealistic to put "Free-For-All during Timequakes", it is equally naive to think it'll get followed. Sure the letter of the law will be, but not the spirit. Unless that letter is truly fleshed out, it might as well not exist. Case in point, unless you explicitly state, "During and inside of the Timequakes, the alliance is dissolved. It is expected to be aggressive towards one another and is encouraged." But even then, there's still one big loophole in that. Remember growing up, whether yourself or a friend's story, someone holds their finger just out of reach while repeating, "I'm not touching you!"....yea.
Because it's easier, we can say that Mag and Halli make this agreement, and even though it is encouraged to go for the other's throat and win for ourselves, we can just 'happen' to work together by 'coincidence' to attack the same player from Celest. These treaties would have to be so precise and explicit to deny this behavior, that you might as well just be a standalone nation at that point. Case in point, the only clause I can think of at the moment to enforce this standalone mentality is, "During and inside of the Timequakes, the alliance is dissolved. It is required by mandate of this treaty to engage and not aide one another."
That is trying too hard, because then you're -still- going to end up doing what others have in the past, do as you please, what's the worst that can happen? CDF, ousting? Gaudiguch already has this precedent and knows exactly what I'm talking about with Ena when she constantly aided Glom and kept breaking the neutrality. Point is, there is no mechanical way to force this standalone behavior, and I'm definitely not going to say that people are even going to do it.
I suggested it earlier, as a spitballed remark, but what if timequakes weren't tied to orgs at all? Thinking something along the lines of a team sport. Draft your team from whoever you want across the Basin, then only the people on that team get the benefits. Generally teams will be org-based, but you could potentially draft a Seren-Glom-Gaudi team or whatever.
I suggested it earlier, as a spitballed remark, but what if timequakes weren't tied to orgs at all? Thinking something along the lines of a team sport. Draft your team from whoever you want across the Basin, then only the people on that team get the benefits. Generally teams will be org-based, but you could potentially draft a Seren-Glom-Gaudi team or whatever.
A lot has been said. I must have missed this point. This wouldn't be terrible. It is definitely better than status quo.
I don't know how you could feasibly get alliances to not happen in this game without drastic measures like, gagging cross-org communication combined with forcing enemy lists of each player to contain all people of all other orgs, (and more besides, I am sure there are loopholes in what I just suggested). And even then, one org might still dominate, and others couldn't team up against them.
I don't know how you could feasibly get alliances to not happen in this game without drastic measures like, gagging cross-org communication combined with forcing enemy lists of each player to contain all people of all other orgs, (and more besides, I am sure there are loopholes in what I just suggested). And even then, one org might still dominate, and others couldn't team up against them.
One org is likely not to amplify the situation. One org will likely have slow periods. Three orgs can cover the entire game. A simple true disfavor would suffice.
I don't know how you could feasibly get alliances to not happen in this game without drastic measures like, gagging cross-org communication combined with forcing enemy lists of each player to contain all people of all other orgs, (and more besides, I am sure there are loopholes in what I just suggested). And even then, one org might still dominate, and others couldn't team up against them.
One org is likely not to amplify the situation. One org will likely have slow periods. Three orgs can cover the entire game. A simple true disfavor would suffice.
I don't think asking people to not play a game (sit out things) is a wise way to encourage activity.
I also, fail to see how this helps the org on the bottom. They'll still be one the bottom and they'll be hosed.
If the problem is a gameplay issue then it is best to address the gameplay itself with systems that reward the gameplay desired as opposed to penalties imposed by admin and players.
Honestly, the refusal to even acknowledge there is an issue makes me want to go dorment. Keep ignoring the problem and kill the game. There are several solutions, but it would require Glom/Gaudi/Celest to give up your easy wins, but hey that shouldn't be an issue since you already got gud and stay positive, right? I'm willing to adjust alliances away from 3v3 to 2v2v2 or 1v1v1v1v1v1 or 1v1v1v1v2 or any variation. I am willing to sit out of fights to make odds even. I'm willing to theory craft, I am willing to spar, I am willing to buff or nerf, and I am willing change to any class to create a fair playing field. My question is what are you all willing to do to help? @everyone
First, I really want to commend Innon for their constant efforts in trying to move the discussion forward.
Did I miss a post in this thread where people were either asked if there was an issue and said no, or where someone just said there's no issue? I might have.
The only thing I've said is pretending there is a single problem and that the problem must be with glom is shortsighted and that I think it is a mistake to put this on players. This is almost entirely a issue created by Lusternia game design and somewhat to Admin RP. If Glom was removed from the game the problem would be elsewhere and if that is true then the problem has to be systematic.
Now, of course there should be systems in Lusternia that reward for different things and I agree it would be good if the admin tried something new with timequakes.
I have also suggested that parts of existing mechanics should perhaps have different mechanics. Maybe one or two domoths behave differently. Maybe one or two villages already do (arguably peaced villages are one such example). Would it be helpful to have a village, perhaps Estelbar not even listen to anyone who's killed something in the two years, maybe?
The last few years have been a missed opportunity by players to move the game design in the direction many of you seem to be asking for.
How many players sat back silently while the admin implemented a 100% bonus between first and last in org credits?
How many players are silent when it comes to your orgs demoralizing combatants by offering them token rewards while you're willing to toss fistful of rewards to your 'scholars and artisans' or worse you pay org leaders.
How many players instead of quitting joined the staff to actually fix anything?
How many players are silent when yet another system is added with a built in level of frustration? We still have staff adding systems that are all or nothing even outside of PK. Take bards, scholars, pilgrims where you can spend 10+ hours trying to move your achievement forward only to miss it a single day and be reset not back a day or two, but entirely back to zero.
Why is frustration a constant design feature of Lusternia? It actually feels as an outsider that someone is behind the scenes telling some designer, "Okay, you can go ahead. But, you need to make it more frustrating." You finally picked up a chicken, you can only hold it 3 seconds. Oh, that gnome trader, yep, it moved again, etc. A lot of these things are cute the first few times, but Lusternia is a game that often asks you to repeat tasks dozens, hundreds, and even thousands of times.
>> So more back on track.
If the game wasn't so much all or nothing ask yourself if you would even be complaining that much about Glom? Sure, you might want your class buffed. You might not like the synergy your org was given over another's, but, if you could make things work some of the time wouldn't that alone be a huge change?
And before someone posts back at this. Ask yourself, what exactly did you or your org do to court a change in alliances when I gave the Basin a big fat opening?
How many players sat back silently while the admin implemented a 100% bonus between first and last in org credits?
It should be returned to 10-9-8-7-7-7 by the way, instead of 10-9-8-7-6-5. I'm really not sure when that change happened. The initial draft had the former, Deich that lower ranks should have to compete amongst each other, maybe changing it to 10-9-8-7-6.5-6, and then it was implemented with less. And now all the orgs which aren't allied with Deich are generating on average 100c less every two weeks.
How many players sat back silently while the admin implemented a 100% bonus between first and last in org credits?
It should be returned to 10-9-8-7-7-7 by the way, instead of 10-9-8-7-6-5. I'm really not sure when that change happened. The initial draft had the former, Deich that lower ranks should have to compete amongst each other, maybe changing it to 10-9-8-7-6.5-6, and then it was implemented with less. And now all the orgs which aren't allied with Deich are generating on average 100c less every two weeks.
Does anyone think there wouldn't be competition if the difference was only 50cr per rank?
Honestly, I dislike the whole of the system. It doesn't take into account org size (except perhaps in some gross factor) and the rank system means you can actually not receive any credits for an achievement. I think I would much prefer a system where you had a base and then org points were directly linked to credits.
They went with Imperian's model, which implies that the 10-9-8 came from higher above (IRE HQ).
Also, I disagree that Glom is wholly innocent in perpetuating Pax Glomdoring. The foundation (mechanical superiority of Glom skills) lies mostly under the admin's jurisdiction, sure, but the fact that players defend and distract from this issue ("our synergy is as good as yours", "git gud", etc) means they share in the blame.
The only thing I've said is pretending there is a single problem and that the problem must be with glom is shortsighted and that I think it is a mistake to put this on players. This is almost entirely a issue created by Lusternia game design and somewhat to Admin RP. If Glom was removed from the game the problem would be elsewhere and if that is true then the problem has to be systematic.
The last few years have been a missed opportunity by players to move the game design in the direction many of you seem to be asking for.
How many players sat back silently while the admin implemented a 100% bonus between first and last in org credits?
How many players are silent when it comes to your orgs demoralizing combatants by offering them token rewards while you're willing to toss fistful of rewards to your 'scholars and artisans' or worse you pay org leaders.
How many players instead of quitting joined the staff to actually fix anything?
How many players are silent when yet another system is added with a built in level of frustration? We still have staff adding systems that are all or nothing even outside of PK. Take bards, scholars, pilgrims where you can spend 10+ hours trying to move your achievement forward only to miss it a single day and be reset not back a day or two, but entirely back to zero.
Why is frustration a constant design feature of Lusternia? It actually feels as an outsider that someone is behind the scenes telling some designer, "Okay, you can go ahead. But, you need to make it more frustrating." You finally picked up a chicken, you can only hold it 3 seconds. Oh, that gnome trader, yep, it moved again, etc. A lot of these things are cute the first few times, but Lusternia is a game that often asks you to repeat tasks dozens, hundreds, and even thousands of times.
If the game wasn't so much all or nothing ask yourself if you would even be complaining that much about Glom? Sure, you might want your class buffed. You might not like the synergy your org was given over another's, but, if you could make things work some of the time wouldn't that alone be a huge change?
As I usually disclaim, pardon the snips, I only want to keep what I'm going to actually be responding to so context exists.
1) I'm not sure where the perception of only a single problem existing stems from, but I'll address it. Multiple problems have been brought up, whether perception or fact, has been discussed and has brought awareness to these topics. When we are stating that Glom is part of the problem, as I've clarified before, there are those that are apart of Glom that actively impede progress that would make some changes. That is, undeniably, something to put on players. Yes, the game design is also at fault and despite multiple attempts to breach into that conversation, it gets shut down without failure.
2) I'm not quite sure on these missed opportunities that are being spoken of, as Envoy reports in the old system still happened and got actively sabotaged even then. These reports would crash and get rejected, and I'm certain some active forum users would gladly share examples.
3) I don't know, how many sat unaware OrgCredits were even a discussion topic? How many players had their input queried? When it got implemented, it definitely wasn't at what it is now, so something happened that people apparently weren't aware of.
4) Common misconception, and I understand why it happens. People seem to think that Magnagora and Hallifax actively attempt to dissuade people from combat, and DESPITE PEOPLE SAYING OTHERWISE AND ATTESTING TO IT this claim continues to circulate as if it is fact. I'm curious which org you are referring to when you say they pay org leaders, and correct me if I'm wrong, but ... why wouldn't you reward people writing books and designs? If people aren't interested in combat, but do that....incentivize so that you can scrape some points in.
5) This one is just silly, Lusternia has never just accepted new staff members off the curb. They put out their call, go through testing, then a ton of training and scenarios before they're even a persona in the game, much less doing anything mechanical. Also, #HireMeForDesignTeam, I will legit work for free if I can make things better for the community.
6) This one, I'm assuming is talking about Timequakes, but I can be wrong and gracious about it. I'm going to assume we're talking Timequakes though. This goes back to point three, how many are unaware it is even a topic? Not like they're making these announces in game for everyone to see. Even then, there has been plenty of pushback, more than actual cheering for it.
6b) As for frustration mechanics, I agree that it really sucks when you miss it, whether through forgetfulness or sparsity. Or, how your hour or two of work can be foiled by someone killing a single thing.
7) This goes back to the top about removing Glom. Would solve a few problems and cause an equal amount. It would solve a lot of the class skill imbalances and the twin vitals synergy they have, leveling the playing field to those with the comparatively subpar synergies. The problems it would create would be the displacement of players and just uprooting them. Where would they go? Would they evenly diserpse (lol no),or would they collectively pick a new home (probably), or just say screw it and quit (most likely)?
This isn't criticism, just a response to the questions posed, because I'm under the assumption this is a healthy conversation.
They went with Imperian's model, which implies that the 10-9-8 came from higher above (IRE HQ).
Also, I disagree that Glom is wholly innocent in perpetuating Pax Glomdoring. The foundation (mechanical superiority of Glom skills) lies mostly under the admin's jurisdiction, sure, but the fact that players defend and distract from this issue ("our synergy is as good as yours", "git gud", etc) means they share in the blame.
I don't know how you could feasibly get alliances to not happen in this game without drastic measures like, gagging cross-org communication combined with forcing enemy lists of each player to contain all people of all other orgs, (and more besides, I am sure there are loopholes in what I just suggested). And even then, one org might still dominate, and others couldn't team up against them.
One org is likely not to amplify the situation. One org will likely have slow periods. Three orgs can cover the entire game. A simple true disfavor would suffice.
I don't think asking people to not play a game (sit out things) is a wise way to encourage activity.
I also, fail to see how this helps the org on the bottom. They'll still be one the bottom and they'll be hosed.
If the problem is a gameplay issue then it is best to address the gameplay itself with systems that reward the gameplay desired as opposed to penalties imposed by admin and players.
Well currently people are quitting the game, so there's that. Asking for even fights and making a suggestion is better than staying with the status quo and seeing more and more of my friends go dorment or retire.
The problem is straight up arms race players and the refusal of other players to spread out pk population or change alliances.
The only thing I've said is pretending there is a single problem and that the problem must be with glom is shortsighted and that I think it is a mistake to put this on players. This is almost entirely a issue created by Lusternia game design and somewhat to Admin RP. If Glom was removed from the game the problem would be elsewhere and if that is true then the problem has to be systematic.
The last few years have been a missed opportunity by players to move the game design in the direction many of you seem to be asking for.
How many players sat back silently while the admin implemented a 100% bonus between first and last in org credits?
How many players are silent when it comes to your orgs demoralizing combatants by offering them token rewards while you're willing to toss fistful of rewards to your 'scholars and artisans' or worse you pay org leaders.
How many players instead of quitting joined the staff to actually fix anything?
How many players are silent when yet another system is added with a built in level of frustration? We still have staff adding systems that are all or nothing even outside of PK. Take bards, scholars, pilgrims where you can spend 10+ hours trying to move your achievement forward only to miss it a single day and be reset not back a day or two, but entirely back to zero.
Why is frustration a constant design feature of Lusternia? It actually feels as an outsider that someone is behind the scenes telling some designer, "Okay, you can go ahead. But, you need to make it more frustrating." You finally picked up a chicken, you can only hold it 3 seconds. Oh, that gnome trader, yep, it moved again, etc. A lot of these things are cute the first few times, but Lusternia is a game that often asks you to repeat tasks dozens, hundreds, and even thousands of times.
If the game wasn't so much all or nothing ask yourself if you would even be complaining that much about Glom? Sure, you might want your class buffed. You might not like the synergy your org was given over another's, but, if you could make things work some of the time wouldn't that alone be a huge change?
As I usually disclaim, pardon the snips, I only want to keep what I'm going to actually be responding to so context exists.
1) I'm not sure where the perception of only a single problem existing stems from, but I'll address it. Multiple problems have been brought up, whether perception or fact, has been discussed and has brought awareness to these topics. When we are stating that Glom is part of the problem, as I've clarified before, there are those that are apart of Glom that actively impede progress that would make some changes. That is, undeniably, something to put on players. Yes, the game design is also at fault and despite multiple attempts to breach into that conversation, it gets shut down without failure.
2) I'm not quite sure on these missed opportunities that are being spoken of, as Envoy reports in the old system still happened and got actively sabotaged even then. These reports would crash and get rejected, and I'm certain some active forum users would gladly share examples.
3) I don't know, how many sat unaware OrgCredits were even a discussion topic? How many players had their input queried? When it got implemented, it definitely wasn't at what it is now, so something happened that people apparently weren't aware of.
4) Common misconception, and I understand why it happens. People seem to think that Magnagora and Hallifax actively attempt to dissuade people from combat, and DESPITE PEOPLE SAYING OTHERWISE AND ATTESTING TO IT this claim continues to circulate as if it is fact. I'm curious which org you are referring to when you say they pay org leaders, and correct me if I'm wrong, but ... why wouldn't you reward people writing books and designs? If people aren't interested in combat, but do that....incentivize so that you can scrape some points in.
5) This one is just silly, Lusternia has never just accepted new staff members off the curb. They put out their call, go through testing, then a ton of training and scenarios before they're even a persona in the game, much less doing anything mechanical. Also, #HireMeForDesignTeam, I will legit work for free if I can make things better for the community.
6) This one, I'm assuming is talking about Timequakes, but I can be wrong and gracious about it. I'm going to assume we're talking Timequakes though. This goes back to point three, how many are unaware it is even a topic? Not like they're making these announces in game for everyone to see. Even then, there has been plenty of pushback, more than actual cheering for it.
6b) As for frustration mechanics, I agree that it really sucks when you miss it, whether through forgetfulness or sparsity. Or, how your hour or two of work can be foiled by someone killing a single thing.
7) This goes back to the top about removing Glom. Would solve a few problems and cause an equal amount. It would solve a lot of the class skill imbalances and the twin vitals synergy they have, leveling the playing field to those with the comparatively subpar synergies. The problems it would create would be the displacement of players and just uprooting them. Where would they go? Would they evenly diserpse (lol no),or would they collectively pick a new home (probably), or just say screw it and quit (most likely)?
This isn't criticism, just a response to the questions posed, because I'm under the assumption this is a healthy conversation.
4) Have you met Serenwilde
The fact Serens don't kick out leaders if they don't change that payment for leader/minister ruleset is beyond me.
5) At this point I would much rather have them bring in someone from another IRE game who has experience with Rapture but none of the bagage of Lusternian player politics. Because like in any game that has a competitive side you can only use players as advisors not as the truth about all. A lot gets theorized on anecdotal evidence and incomplete statistics. And the fault there lies 100% with the admins who refuse to share the real statistics which a player can't get.
And I won't speak of if Glomdoring needs nerfing or not (I do not have the knowledge for that). I will tell you Lusternia has a reputation of sledgehammer nerfing destroying entire classes for RL years instead of the fine tweaking that was needed. So I understand the reluctance to follow people just going yeah lets nerf that skill without giving exact things to change with the stats to support it. And so we once again come to admins having to do the math themselves.
They went with Imperian's model, which implies that the 10-9-8 came from higher above (IRE HQ).
Also, I disagree that Glom is wholly innocent in perpetuating Pax Glomdoring. The foundation (mechanical superiority of Glom skills) lies mostly under the admin's jurisdiction, sure, but the fact that players defend and distract from this issue ("our synergy is as good as yours", "git gud", etc) means they share in the blame.
Where does anyone say wholly innocent?
It's implied by the posts of Glom players throughout the forums. "Let's not generalize!" or "Not all Gloms!" is the usual indicator.
In any case, repeating it now and again makes it a bit harder for Glom to falsememory away via numerous distractions.
Furthermore, another constant snide comment that should be called out: "You might not like the synergy your org was given over another's, but, if you could make things work some of the time wouldn't that alone be a huge change?"
Essentially, you're telling us to live with what we have despite it being second-class, and by golly, we should be happy with the scraps we get. No. That's not how balance works.
Next call out: "prove your claims". We already have. Check QW. POLITICS. DOMOTH STATUS. Glom and Friends have dominated Lusternia for years, and even when they weren't on "top" (the last time was during Falmiis's heyday, I think?), they weren't as low as what other orgs have sunk to. That's a good indicator that there's something wrong with Glomdoring as an org: even with a barebones crew, they can still win fights. And it's not because everyone else is terrible; Glom's skills and synergy are just vastly superior. See my analogy with the kayak vs the speedboat.
If Glom and Friends would just sit down and actually work with the rest of the game instead of waving falsememory all over the place, we'd get somewhere. All of the above ("at least you get something", "prove your claims") are yet another salvo of distractions from the real problem: Glomdoring.
Comments
<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.lusternia.com/banner/minkahmet.jpg">https://www.lusternia.com/banner/minkahmet.jpg</a>The point is, *I* should not have to be the one responsible for doing everything you're talking about. I can't be. And increasingly, other people don't want to be, BECAUSE IT DOESN"T HELP. We are still outnumbered, and all the brilliant tactics only go so far. Get your head out of your posterior and stop implying that we just suck or we're lazy. Innon and Eadei and Aramel and Maligorn and Keegan and Saz all worked hard to do what they could, as did Avurekhos, Vatul, etc.
We're human, it's pretty simple, positive feelings are what enable people to feel that it's worth it to put in the effort to do all these things. The negative experiences lead to negative feelings, the longer that loop continues the less desirable it is to put in effort because it feels less and less like it's worth the time.
Hopefully after Timequakes, and mage revamp (that really should've been the actual top priority, unless ideas for it just haven't been hashed out fully yet)...things will be fixed. MUCH of the complaints and stated beliefs of bias and imbalance stem more from frustration of perceptions, than hopefully any actual reality. So admins and players alike, patience, mm? I'm with you all that feel the frustrations of this game right now, really I am...but even if things did a complete 180 and everything was being worked on to balance things out to be enjoyable by all properly, it's going to take quite some time to fix things.
Yeah, but that time isn't going to get any shorter. Getting the overhaul done means that all of the orgs would have updated melders.
Doing a "180" on this means rather than spending any time on envoying solutions for the current context, the reports can focus on what the context is going to become. I know some of the things Seren was asking/hoping for could be really important moving forward.
It's also just a better flow in terms of the messaging tbh. Like doesn't...
"We've finished the melder overhaul, we've updated the classes so orgs are more equivalent, so now we're going to release a new pvp mechanic"
sound better than
"We've released a new pvp mechanic, we'll be looking at the org imbalance later"
It doesn't matter if you're the best and fastest driver on a kayak when your competition is driving a speedboat.
The "git gud" motto is a huge fallacy and I automatically pity anyone who is deluded by it.
Accountability is necessary.
You're old enough that you may remember that pretty much this exact argument was made about domoths.
Right now outside of certain situations few overly care about domoth blessings.
Seriously people, focus on the problem being all or nothing systems. Push for more systems where you make some headway for participation even if you do not 'win'.
Focus a bit less on Glom and more on the admin making pk competitive but non-zero-sum.
so I’m old enough to know it’ll be used cause players have been engaging in that sort of behaviour forever
Instead of advising people to be better losers, how about you guys be better winners and help fixing the game you're enjoying so much. Lusternia isn't the first game that I've been on the losing end, nor it will be the last, but it's the only game that I've seen killing itself for pushing away its losers this much.
edit: Typos.
another edit: September 2017, Minkahmet's take on game balance and Glomdoring https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/178756
I think what was said in those lines and the lines those were quoted by Shaddus still stand true for the most part. I think most people echo the feeling of hitting a brickwall in the end. And after 2 years pass, you think things would get better, rightfully too I suppose? I'm not denying Orael's efforts/goodwill to answer the imbalance overall, but his own words imply that those steps are babysteps. Hopefully he will be the savior this game needs, but I have no plans to stay around long enough to witness it myself.
-Kilian
We'd just need to insert that in any treaties. They sound like they'll be in alternate realities so could be justified.
Because it's easier, we can say that Mag and Halli make this agreement, and even though it is encouraged to go for the other's throat and win for ourselves, we can just 'happen' to work together by 'coincidence' to attack the same player from Celest. These treaties would have to be so precise and explicit to deny this behavior, that you might as well just be a standalone nation at that point. Case in point, the only clause I can think of at the moment to enforce this standalone mentality is, "During and inside of the Timequakes, the alliance is dissolved. It is required by mandate of this treaty to engage and not aide one another."
That is trying too hard, because then you're -still- going to end up doing what others have in the past, do as you please, what's the worst that can happen? CDF, ousting? Gaudiguch already has this precedent and knows exactly what I'm talking about with Ena when she constantly aided Glom and kept breaking the neutrality. Point is, there is no mechanical way to force this standalone behavior, and I'm definitely not going to say that people are even going to do it.
edit: to clarify I think Gaudiguch does not have the PVPers to face down Glom. I'm still up for 1vs1 against smaller orgs!
A lot has been said. I must have missed this point. This wouldn't be terrible. It is definitely better than status quo.
One org is likely not to amplify the situation. One org will likely have slow periods. Three orgs can cover the entire game. A simple true disfavor would suffice.
I don't think asking people to not play a game (sit out things) is a wise way to encourage activity.
I also, fail to see how this helps the org on the bottom. They'll still be one the bottom and they'll be hosed.
If the problem is a gameplay issue then it is best to address the gameplay itself with systems that reward the gameplay desired as opposed to penalties imposed by admin and players.
First, I really want to commend Innon for their constant efforts in trying to move the discussion forward.
Did I miss a post in this thread where people were either asked if there was an issue and said no, or where someone just said there's no issue? I might have.
The only thing I've said is pretending there is a single problem and that the problem must be with glom is shortsighted and that I think it is a mistake to put this on players. This is almost entirely a issue created by Lusternia game design and somewhat to Admin RP. If Glom was removed from the game the problem would be elsewhere and if that is true then the problem has to be systematic.
Now, of course there should be systems in Lusternia that reward for different things and I agree it would be good if the admin tried something new with timequakes.
I have also suggested that parts of existing mechanics should perhaps have different mechanics. Maybe one or two domoths behave differently. Maybe one or two villages already do (arguably peaced villages are one such example). Would it be helpful to have a village, perhaps Estelbar not even listen to anyone who's killed something in the two years, maybe?
The last few years have been a missed opportunity by players to move the game design in the direction many of you seem to be asking for.
How many players sat back silently while the admin implemented a 100% bonus between first and last in org credits?
How many players are silent when it comes to your orgs demoralizing combatants by offering them token rewards while you're willing to toss fistful of rewards to your 'scholars and artisans' or worse you pay org leaders.
How many players instead of quitting joined the staff to actually fix anything?
How many players are silent when yet another system is added with a built in level of frustration? We still have staff adding systems that are all or nothing even outside of PK. Take bards, scholars, pilgrims where you can spend 10+ hours trying to move your achievement forward only to miss it a single day and be reset not back a day or two, but entirely back to zero.
Why is frustration a constant design feature of Lusternia? It actually feels as an outsider that someone is behind the scenes telling some designer, "Okay, you can go ahead. But, you need to make it more frustrating." You finally picked up a chicken, you can only hold it 3 seconds. Oh, that gnome trader, yep, it moved again, etc. A lot of these things are cute the first few times, but Lusternia is a game that often asks you to repeat tasks dozens, hundreds, and even thousands of times.
>> So more back on track.
If the game wasn't so much all or nothing ask yourself if you would even be complaining that much about Glom? Sure, you might want your class buffed. You might not like the synergy your org was given over another's, but, if you could make things work some of the time wouldn't that alone be a huge change?
And before someone posts back at this. Ask yourself, what exactly did you or your org do to court a change in alliances when I gave the Basin a big fat opening?
Does anyone think there wouldn't be competition if the difference was only 50cr per rank?
Honestly, I dislike the whole of the system. It doesn't take into account org size (except perhaps in some gross factor) and the rank system means you can actually not receive any credits for an achievement. I think I would much prefer a system where you had a base and then org points were directly linked to credits.
*reads this thread*
*remembers why stopped playing Lusty*
*goes back to simply reading forums for lolzertainment*
Also, I disagree that Glom is wholly innocent in perpetuating Pax Glomdoring. The foundation (mechanical superiority of Glom skills) lies mostly under the admin's jurisdiction, sure, but the fact that players defend and distract from this issue ("our synergy is as good as yours", "git gud", etc) means they share in the blame.
Accountability is necessary.
1) I'm not sure where the perception of only a single problem existing stems from, but I'll address it. Multiple problems have been brought up, whether perception or fact, has been discussed and has brought awareness to these topics. When we are stating that Glom is part of the problem, as I've clarified before, there are those that are apart of Glom that actively impede progress that would make some changes. That is, undeniably, something to put on players. Yes, the game design is also at fault and despite multiple attempts to breach into that conversation, it gets shut down without failure.
2) I'm not quite sure on these missed opportunities that are being spoken of, as Envoy reports in the old system still happened and got actively sabotaged even then. These reports would crash and get rejected, and I'm certain some active forum users would gladly share examples.
3) I don't know, how many sat unaware OrgCredits were even a discussion topic? How many players had their input queried? When it got implemented, it definitely wasn't at what it is now, so something happened that people apparently weren't aware of.
4) Common misconception, and I understand why it happens. People seem to think that Magnagora and Hallifax actively attempt to dissuade people from combat, and DESPITE PEOPLE SAYING OTHERWISE AND ATTESTING TO IT this claim continues to circulate as if it is fact. I'm curious which org you are referring to when you say they pay org leaders, and correct me if I'm wrong, but ... why wouldn't you reward people writing books and designs? If people aren't interested in combat, but do that....incentivize so that you can scrape some points in.
5) This one is just silly, Lusternia has never just accepted new staff members off the curb. They put out their call, go through testing, then a ton of training and scenarios before they're even a persona in the game, much less doing anything mechanical. Also, #HireMeForDesignTeam, I will legit work for free if I can make things better for the community.
6) This one, I'm assuming is talking about Timequakes, but I can be wrong and gracious about it. I'm going to assume we're talking Timequakes though. This goes back to point three, how many are unaware it is even a topic? Not like they're making these announces in game for everyone to see. Even then, there has been plenty of pushback, more than actual cheering for it.
6b) As for frustration mechanics, I agree that it really sucks when you miss it, whether through forgetfulness or sparsity. Or, how your hour or two of work can be foiled by someone killing a single thing.
7) This goes back to the top about removing Glom. Would solve a few problems and cause an equal amount. It would solve a lot of the class skill imbalances and the twin vitals synergy they have, leveling the playing field to those with the comparatively subpar synergies. The problems it would create would be the displacement of players and just uprooting them. Where would they go? Would they evenly diserpse (lol no),or would they collectively pick a new home (probably), or just say screw it and quit (most likely)?
This isn't criticism, just a response to the questions posed, because I'm under the assumption this is a healthy conversation.
Well currently people are quitting the game, so there's that. Asking for even fights and making a suggestion is better than staying with the status quo and seeing more and more of my friends go dorment or retire.
The problem is straight up arms race players and the refusal of other players to spread out pk population or change alliances.
In any case, repeating it now and again makes it a bit harder for Glom to falsememory away via numerous distractions.
Furthermore, another constant snide comment that should be called out: "You might not like the synergy your org was given over another's, but, if you could make things work some of the time wouldn't that alone be a huge change?"
Essentially, you're telling us to live with what we have despite it being second-class, and by golly, we should be happy with the scraps we get. No. That's not how balance works.
Next call out: "prove your claims". We already have. Check QW. POLITICS. DOMOTH STATUS. Glom and Friends have dominated Lusternia for years, and even when they weren't on "top" (the last time was during Falmiis's heyday, I think?), they weren't as low as what other orgs have sunk to. That's a good indicator that there's something wrong with Glomdoring as an org: even with a barebones crew, they can still win fights. And it's not because everyone else is terrible; Glom's skills and synergy are just vastly superior. See my analogy with the kayak vs the speedboat.
If Glom and Friends would just sit down and actually work with the rest of the game instead of waving falsememory all over the place, we'd get somewhere. All of the above ("at least you get something", "prove your claims") are yet another salvo of distractions from the real problem: Glomdoring.
Accountability is necessary.