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The Snowball Effect
This forum post is to discuss a concerning problem that Lusternia is currently experiencing. This is not meant to blame. It is to point out facts, some opinions, and identify solutions.
Fact 1: Players are retiring from one side at an increased rate than the other.
Fact 2: Novices are selecting one side more than the other .
Fact 3: Combat is rarely even, and it is often one-sided in terms of numbers.
Opinion 1: This isn't one or a few players fault on either side.
Opinion 2: People do not want to feel hopeless.
Opinion 3: This problem is killing and will end Lusternia.
Solution 1: Dissolve all alliances.
Solution 2: Create mechanics that even sides in a numbers regard.
Solution 3: Adjust balance somehow to where numbers don't stack well. (I don't have a plan.)
Again, please don't specify org or players in this thread.
Fact 1: Players are retiring from one side at an increased rate than the other.
Fact 2: Novices are selecting one side more than the other .
Fact 3: Combat is rarely even, and it is often one-sided in terms of numbers.
Opinion 1: This isn't one or a few players fault on either side.
Opinion 2: People do not want to feel hopeless.
Opinion 3: This problem is killing and will end Lusternia.
Solution 1: Dissolve all alliances.
Solution 2: Create mechanics that even sides in a numbers regard.
Solution 3: Adjust balance somehow to where numbers don't stack well. (I don't have a plan.)
Again, please don't specify org or players in this thread.
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(c) Iron Realms Entertainment 2012.
Comments
I would like to see the sources for these. Or some kind of data gathered. Not saying it's not correct, but there's no sense in looking for a solution if you cannot first identify a problem. So. Could the admins confirm/deny any of these statements? Or could the OP post numbers, along the lines of 'Novices a,b,c joined org x,y,z in this previous 2 week period.'?
Proper identification of a problem will go a long way to resolving it.
Fantastic. This is how you build good relations.
Man, so much victimization. Who am I building "good relations" with? Your question is a classic stall, and is the same thing that happens every time someone brings up or even hints at that forest that must not be named. The sheer numbers will not show the real trend of what happens in Domoths, villages, etc etc, given the ability of anyone, including myself, to have alts. So this data would be largely useless, but you still want it anyway before anyone is allowed to discuss the problem. Right.
I mean, I guess if the game dies with one side on top, you do "win", so good job! I'll be back in Aetolia, along with many others.
1 Data: Retires of merit that I can recall: Yarith, Mrak, Anita, Nicholo, Danquik, Gero, Marcella, Lycidas, Falaeron, and possiblely I few others. Please add any from the other "side".
2 Data: Novices: Choros, Innon, Pysynne, Aydeksa, Iove, Afollia, Ishra, Esri, Irulan, Kyalrhin, and Ionetta. Please add any I missed.
3 Data: This was meant at both sides, but most domoths are one sided. Ascension was until that thing happened. The past several revolts have been heavily lopsided to one side.
Hopefully, this starts you off with a bit of data. You are more than welcome to validate or correct any information here.
1. Data helps to show HOW to correct a problem. That is why it's important to have it before moving on. Otherwise, what are we trying to even fix here? 'More novices', ok, how? Is it a problem of more novices JOINING org x first, or is it a problem of RETENTION (ie. they join org y, but then leave for org x)?
2. Players are retiring at an increasing rate... why? Can we get a list of the players who have retired from each org in the last 12 months to give us some direction here? I'm sorry, I don't spend as much time on this game as you and unfortunately am not aware of every single person who plays/retires throughout the year. If you do, then please, share, and I can learn.
3. Combat definitely swings back and forth with numbers. Potential fix to this in game would be an MMR system, where each player is scored based on their credit cost, level, and some other points (maybe number of kills in the last year? Don't know, spitballing), and then only allow equal MMR to be up in a combat area at any given point. This one we know is a problem and the data could be gathered in one 24 hour period, but unsure how to fix it.
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3355/problem-the-economy/p1
"Leaving Lusternia" 2018 march, a thread by Lilyin! 71 votes, 6 pages of comments:
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3349/leaving-lusternia/p1
My personal tipping point for giving up on combat-related events. "Chaos Event Megathread", a thread by Ianir, the lead coding admin of the time. 2018 January:
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3301/chaos-event-megathread/p1
And Glomdoring plays no part in any of it? Sure.
"Shadowtwists and you - A discussion" 2017 October by Kalikai, another balance design admin. But I need to guide you through this one. Hallifax represantative Falaeron comments, Celest represantative Kaimanahi comments, then a Magnagoran Ascendant (And a former Glomdoring player) Karlach comments and then, with no deleted comments or anything, I ensure you, Kalikai is requested to close thread, by Glomdoring represantatives. Because they do not believe a constructive discussion is possible about their skillsets in public:
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/180412#Comment_180412
Another attempt to open Shadowtwists up to discussion by a Serenwilde/Celest envoy, I can not remember which org he was in back then, by Minkahmet. Shut down again, as you can see:
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/180438#Comment_180438
"Do you feel that glomdoring skillsets in general and whole are superior to other orgs" by Yarith, January 2018. Just an opinion survey, which has a few noncombatant input in the votes in both columns and some unfortunate trolling attempts in the comments. But there it is:
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3305/do-you-feel-that-glomdoring-skillsets-in-general-and-whole-are-superior-to-other-org-counterparts/p1
A lot of the retirees I listed were not burnouts or loss of interest. It wasn't friends being on another side. It was the exact opposite. These were all long time great players in their own merit. Each had several friends that kept them hanging on much longer than they otherwise would have. The novice issue is more it's easier to start on the "winning" side thus the name "Snowball".
Asking the admins to verify numbers won't happen because it will do more damage than good. You make mention if you ran your business a certain way, you'd be out of it. So let's think like a business man again, "Hey, Synl, how many customers and active users have you lost in the past year?". It's like asking any business how much revenue they lost and openly admit to it. Steps are being made to rectify this, and is pretty much the only reason I still hold out hope that things improve. I wasn't about in-game politics and my side vs your side, in fact, I had decent relations ICly with the opposition, having conversations and on occasion helping with something minor, or reaching out to their novices to make sure they were being tended to.
Onto addressing why novices choose certain sides. Mostly, it is for the flavor they want to play, but surely people aren't so naive to notice that the novice they had interactions with just disappears and a new novice appears that seems to stick around? Maybe the willful ignorance again, but saying it doesn't happen and saying that it is our fault for not giving them attention or being so negative about things is just equally false. I can speak for Magnagora, that we would get a novice, sometimes two, each day, and possibly 5% of them stuck around. It takes commitment and grit to want to remain on the side that is so downtrodden that frankly, not many are going to stay because this is a game for enjoyment! This isn't some competitive game where you're hired to a specific team to fight for, you're going to go where you can enjoy and feel the pay off.
Lastly, combat swings? Your turn to supply data, please show where combat was altered by a change in numbers. A 2v1 turning into a 2v2 isn't really an accurate scale either, also since there have not been equal numbers on the battlefield in well over six months I severely doubt you'll find the data points. In short, one side has the numbers and class skill superiority and people are leaving because they see nothing being done about it. Even in those discussions where plenty of voices are made known, it ends in the same way this started, "proof or gtfo."
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
2. Gurashi, off the top of my head, though I would say Afollia is pretty explicitly not a novice. There was another one in the village last night, too, a monk I hadn't seen before. Keahi? Anyways, those numbers seem mostly equal for the two alliances - Choros, Innon, Pysynne, Aydeksa, Iove, Keahi? vs. Ishra, Gurashi, Esri, Irulan, Ionetta, Kyalrhin? So what are we trying to fix here?
3. They have been one-sided, I agree. That flows throughout the day, but probably the trend is heavily lop-sided. This needs fixing, and I suggested (as has been previously suggested) an MMR system to force balanced combat.
As an aside, I do think first the players have to come to terms with what it means to be a competitive game. That is, if you want this game to be a competitive online game, then you need to accept that not everyone will get to participate (low MMR? learn or leave) or that people are going to push and bend the mechanics to the maximum (difference between 'cheap' and 'cheating') to eke out a win. And that should be acceptable and encouraged behaviour. I am not a combatant in this game because I do not consider this a good platform to exercise my competitive habits - I would rather do that in MTG, the various miniature games I play, etc.Lycidas said: That's a good point. The discussion falls apart a bit because this is a weird business where the customers talk more about saving the business than the actual business owner. If my customers were having these kinds of forums, I would probably be more inclined to step in with data.
I would agree that most people would not want to stay on the losing side, but I'm wondering how quickly novices realize their side is 'the losing side'. I rolled a character in Aetolia not too long ago, going in largely blind, and I could not tell you for the life of me if my character was on the winning or the losing side... granted I only played about 15ish days, on and off, but that's what I imagine a novice's playtime to be, too. Basically, I'm wondering how we link novice retention to winning villages/domoths/nodes? Older player retention for sure can be linked to it, but unsure about the novice bit.
I can agree on numbers by and large, but the skill superiority I can't speak to. Some things (like aeon being tied to stolen shadow) seem like obvious changes to me, but my knowledge of combat is little enough that I can't say what it will break elsewhere. Other changes (like bleeding synergy being superior to aff-based synergies) seem like obvious problems, but would need a more hefty research before the change (imo, make bleeding into an aff, cured by dust/steam only, that then slows down sipping health/mana or something... like I said, more research). I can't really speak to this, like I said.
theatre due to the snowy weather.
hungering malice.
Beyond this, defenses like deathsight exist and they can see their people getting slaughtered left, right, and center. They can also have loyalsays to hear org loyals being attacked and dying, with no chance of defending. Aetolia, while great in it's own right, doesn't have many, if any, parallels in how our conflict system works. They used to, when landmarks were a thing well over a decade, maybe two, ago though. Point of the matter, a novice has plenty of information that says, "You're getting your butt kicked." It's like starting a D&D campaign with a 15 point buy while everyone else at the table gets a 30 point buy.
I am not on the list of named retirees, but I did retire a month or so before those players. I have played this game for almost 5 years, now.
I retired, because I found people across the board to be very toxic, toward the end. I don't think a minority of you realize the damage you can create, simply by being spiteful, allowing inferior anger issues to bleed into the game and turning that into malicious ideations of another person - When you feel like this, you need to take a step back and ask yourself, "Is this the kind of level I wish to lower myself to?".
I didn't retire because of "Us vs Them"..- I'm of the mind, you shouldn't keep yourself in that kind of situation, and you have to sometimes make your own enjoyment. Even if that includes biting the bullet and moving along.
Fast forward 5 months later, I've had a break, returned to a different org/side. I've never played in Gaudi, or alongside Glom, before now, and, I have to say - They are the most helpful and patient people I have ever played with in this game. I've also been lucky enough to have the support of a long time friend. My point is - Form your opinion from your own experience of said orgs, because you might be pleasantly surprised.
I've even brought a friend over to play, they are enjoying it so far.
I will say, it's extremely overwhelming for a novice. There has been so much ploughed into this game, that it is very daunting, a huge overload of information; Maybe the Newbie system needs to be looked at, so we don't continue to lose them?
I don't have a solution to the problems, other than my own experience above, I'm still learning how to play again. However, so far, so good. There are positives to go along with the negatives.
You asked for data. I obliged. You then say it may be the same in Gaudi/Celest. I would say it isn't. Make a list though and add to my current list. Rasvin was one from Gaudiguch.
Iove is Celest and hopefully Keahi does stick around, but let's not count one event. I will help Keahi as much as I can. Aydeksa was Gaudi. I guess our failure to communicate is I don't think 4/5 is close to a steady 8. Also, Innon and Choros are clearly not novices, so if you remove them then you would have it at 3 to 7.
Aetolia is a different game. Anyone can clearly see who is winning in Lusternia. It could be a bit more balanced in Aetolia.
It's hard when novices in my own org come to me for advice on how to fight, and I don't have an answer, or even some direction to point them in. Sure, I could try to learn how to fight, but learning to fight by getting smacked into the ground repeatedly is not something I would enjoy, or advise others to attempt. Leaving the only option as, join Glomdoring and get them to teach you to fight.
Lycidas makes a good point about how visible it is who holds what villages. Again though, is that something novices are actually aware of? If novice retention in certain organizations is a major problem, then we need to address it. Going back to your solutions:
Solution 1: Dissolve all alliances. - How? A domoth style system, where if org x already owns a number of villages, then it cannot enter any more villages?
Solution 2: Create mechanics that even sides in a numbers regard. - How? MMR system like any actual competitive online game uses?
Solution 3: Adjust balance somehow to where numbers don't stack well. (I don't have a plan.) Same as solution 2, really.
However, what is that problem? Ok, it's Glomdoring being toxic or having abilities that are overpowered.
Ok, let's go with that. What is the solution that the admins have agreed to implementing? It's...
See where the system breaks down, and how it's a little disingenous (and more importantly, fruitless) to blame players?
I don't care about an org being labeled the enemy, but it doesn't DO anything. Imagine if nobody from Glomdoring (well, me) had commented on this thread. What would have changed?
Solution 1: Admin has forced alliance shifts prior in history. God disfavors for not attempting to compete for you own org? New mechanics that pit orgs against each other? The point is to come up with ideas. I'm not fond of this idea, but it's better than the status quo.
Solution 2: Maybe an MMR rating or even an instance where it allows even number or within a certain number of combatants to actually have the event. (This of course would have issues) I don't think there is a perfect solution. See my new Timequakes comment.
Solution 3: Create more diminishing returns like on wounds and demon marks. Mana drains, health damage, etc having diminishing returns would be a step that could be taken, but again it would have some issues that would need to be worked out.