Add another person to the pile and another reason. I'm done. I don't care if this gets flagged or removed, because I'm just not going to bother coming back to see if it happened. Thanks for ruining the game assholes. All people want is a fair shake and you have the FUCKING BALLS to say it is pure training and hard work that is the ONLY DIFFERENCE. What a load of utter bullshit. Stop talking like you know -ANYTHING- about your opposition, because it is very clear you don't know shit about us. It is readily apparent that nothing is wrong, we the majority of the playerbase just need to be POSITIVE! BE POSITIVE YOU LOSERS!
It doesn't take a smart person to realize that just giving over a single class as-is will prove anything. It does take a smart person to acknowledge and analyze that the imbalance is from superior GROUP synergy and population. Point of this? I'm retiring out because as it has been suggested by the other side, the clearly superior and can never be wrong side, just leave! You got it!
It seems that my attempt to stand in the middle and get people to invert their thinking to what the other side percieves....has just made both sides dislike me equally.
Whoa whoa whoa - my test server is not available for anyone to just jump on at any time. Please do not say that it's ok to do so without first consulting me.
The only time it's ok is when I expressly ask people to test things out.
@Saran You misunderstand me. I'm saying that I believe several Halli combatants would choose to all go Glom classes to take advantage of the synergy. And people have suggested reskinning skillsets and equalizing everything, etc, which given the current culture in Glom might be more palatable to them than nerfing Glom skills. Five new classes wouldn't have to be completely new - they could just pick one of the six to be the new "standard" class.
More generally, I think it's time for me to stop for my own sanity. I'm sorry guys, I really did try to have this conversation honestly, but I don't have the mental energy to continue this.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Yes, it is anecdote. That doesn't change the fact that people left because of it. Which is my entire point.
Do you want a game just consisting of Glomdoring and Gaudiguch? Cause this is the way it happens.
Seriously, just stop. What exactly do you think Gaudiguch has other than people who are willing to be present?
Nothing. But heavily invested people said they left the game because
Glom/Gaudi is unbeatable, which may just be a perception, but it is now a
heavily ingrained perception. I had hoped that understanding this would
lead to something better happening. Why must I stop trying to save the
game?
Here's the thing that is bothering me the most about your posts
recently: You
say things like "Glomdoring must do something, anything," and when
you're told that some people are in fact doing things in that regard you
dismiss it and continue on with a nebulous "hey you players it's all on
you, just do... it!"
But what is the it? What
are you even asking for? In the end your posts boil down to griping
about an organization. What do you think should happen? Are you asking
a bunch of Glomdoring players to just stop playing? I feel like you
just posted that you don't want even one more player to leave. Switch
orgs? Well, that often leads to "stopping play" too; people don't get
as much enjoyment when they're forced to do something they aren't really
into.
You've basically just jumped on the
thread and are screaming about Glomdoring. I'm left at a loss as to
what you're actually trying to do other than that; if that's not what
you're trying to convey, maybe rethink your wording a bit. Offer some
more concrete ideas, perhaps? I think that just finger-pointing is not getting across whatever point you're trying to make.
Yes, it is anecdote. That doesn't change the fact that people left because of it. Which is my entire point.
Do you want a game just consisting of Glomdoring and Gaudiguch? Cause this is the way it happens.
Seriously, just stop. What exactly do you think Gaudiguch has other than people who are willing to be present?
Gaudiguch has some very helpful people who are quite motivating. Its got its drama and its issues but Gaudiguch is a pretty good example oocly of how people can run an org well, its very inclusive and has a lot of encouragement to players of all sorts.
If people want to look at and try and copy what gaudi is doing right in their own org that sounds like a great idea.
Yeah, I have been a bit hard on the Gloms and Gaudi, and I'm sorry if I caused offence. Especially to you @Steingrim, you are a cool person and have been nice to me in game. The reason I have been hard on Glom/Gaudi is because it seems you are the only people who actually have the willpower to stand up and do stuff at this point. Railing at other people to stand up and fight doesn't feel like it will achieve anything.
Okay so. Even if Veyils is being genuine with all the good will about wanting to help others, with their repetitive expression that comes off a little condescending. Here, take a look how many time it comes off in a single forum page:
-If you want to go into a detailed review of how an org synergy works and how they can get great kills send me a PM and I'll walk you though the various classes Shaddus.
-I'm always happy to give combat advice to people.
-Feel free to pm me too and I can talk you through it outside this thread.
And I think it's incredibly harsh to argue that no one else in this game knows how to nurture novices or they do not spend enough time to understand combat and whatnot, because while everyone is invested in different levels, it's definitely not rocket science to do PvP and to find success in it. I've personally spent hundreds of hours theorizing inter-class synergies (Not because it's a necessity, but because I enjoy, I'm that kind of a nerd), the extinct skillsets and abilities most people have long forgotten about to find some use for them. And again, I've held many IC Combat lectures for dozens of novices, mostly noncoms while I was a GL. I've also done my best to help my friends ond others theorize on their own skillsets. And Aramel has even brought up a script-package that lowered the bar for our novices, from which many benefited and of that we've reaped a lot of success in early 2017, it was still against Veyils and Tarken back then too. And there was still competition, for sure. But people hadn't had enough of Glomdoring at that point. And what I mean by that can be better elaborated as this:
It's not a perception flaw, it's an objective fact that Glomdoring used to raid other orgs (very primarily, Serenwilde) on a daily basis, if not hourly basis for some days. And they were the only org in that 3 year timespan, to do that with high frequency with high participation. A point of exceptional frustration for me was that period of time when Nekotai had access to an instantkill of bleeding and with a design bug abuse they could just open up with their killer stance... And just kill you... Because they could prepare it on their own beasts/allies and what have you. You'd walk into a room and get instakilled in just two balances time, which used to be roughly four to five seconds. Veterans were like, "wtf is this, let's post so this gets fixed. And let's not do any PvP until this is fixed. There's no point in it." But novices were often either discouraged by that steep hill or they were genuinely asking how to counter. Back then we didn't know if there was a counter, and still I don't know. "Just Nekotai things /shrug." was my honest answer. Even without the stance bug abuse they were still leagues beyond what others could do at the time. I had often advised people to try to be more mobile on the field but it didn't really help or solve anything either, since they would still get blasted at one mis-step and they weren't feeling like they were doing anything remarkably useful either. Despite I as a rather experienced combatant back then knew if they were targeting me and I wasn't dying, at least I was kind of buying some time for my team to do something. But even for me the offensive capability was such an uphill battle it was never one to be won, at my end. And yeah, that's exceptionally bland for a novice to accept and then enjoy, even if that situation were to last temporarily, what's there to enjoy for that novice?
But yeah, Nekotai's instantkill got fixed in about a month. Despite Tarken and Veyils farmed a ridiculous K/D ratio of a couple hundred combined during that month, iirc. As I said those were mostly novices or fresh combat enthusiasts because most of the more experienced combatants were opting in to not show up. And those people, back to the point above either a.)Stopped participating in PvP or b.)Genuinely looked for improvements on their ends... And some actually became really good combatants, like coal forming diamond under high pressure. But to survive they had to switch their classes, minmax and play Bard/Monk only. Which was still a legitimate approach last I checked.
Then came Shadowdancers. And boy and did they run around rampant for a while. And then when someone said they couldn't move an inch, or "Hey take a look at this log, I don't know how my mana drained this fast." "Why do I have 4000 bleeding ticks in 10 seconds." I would just answer "Just Shadowtwist. /Shrug." "Just NSB. /Shrug." Because that's what they were. There were no counterparts in the game to justify their strength and oppression over other skillsets. Unless you got a clear numbers or some experience advantage, it just didn't work out to fight those skillsets tooth to tooth. And honestly, accepting that "we" were against something bonkers was the first step for me to start improving and then find some success in the game, instead of believing it was an equal armsrace of whoever is faster with reflexes, whoever has better friends to coordinate with and who's playing smarter on the field. Because only then I could more accurately prioritize their threat level accurately, or only then I accepted that I can never ignore Shadowdancers to do as they please. And it worked for a while too, until it didn't and we got weary, and there were no signs of earth on the horizon in that long long journey. I just jumped ship, as did many others.
So yeah, that's why, probably me and most other people have this very strong opinion about their skillsets, over the span of years. Not because we circlejerk eachother and whine about them forever, I honestly don't even know most of the combatants nowadays at all. But maybe because we've been subject to the same skills and then compared them to what we've, and that's why we're sharing our rather strong opinions. And for the love of everything that's good, please stop, belittling what others had done/are doing in this game.
Late edit: I've just read the post above by @Niwynne. I like you for what you are doing.
"Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."
Deichtine said: Well if they don't believe people in their own org that's hard to change. I can always point out examples of people who I have helped with their systems or their kills as examples to show its true though but you are right if people won't listen to whats happening then there isn't anything you can do to change their minds really.
I did not say that. Don't twist my words. Again, you have missed the point. Giving examples of people you have helped is going to do nothing.
You need to show that Glomdoring is not toxic. You need to fundamentally change how Glomdoring operates, to prove you actually care about the game carrying on. Because no-one is going to rise up to stop Glomdoring. This is what they have been trying to explain for the past...however long it has been. No one can stop you. No one will stop you. You will just keep winning until you discover that there is no one left to fight.
Either you're a new player and your overextending your knowledge here or you're an alt and making up crap. I'm assuming the former.
Quit shifting the burden. Glomdoring doesn't have to prove it isn't toxic anymore than any of the other orgs do. It isn't Glomdoring's fault if people are just generally crap at making and presenting their case.
Here's some homework for you. I mean this in the sense of how you can test your preconceptions here. Comb though the forums and find me one concrete thing that should be changed to a Glomdoring skillset where the person could be arsed to be specific, show their work (aka justify their stance with math or at the very least actual timings), compared to other classes, and present an actual case for a change.
Don't get me wrong, I place a lot of the blame for this at the feet of the admin. By often changing things based on people's impressions of things they've fostered the culture we have now. If for no other reason, allowing people to think they've made valid complaints when they haven't has to lead to increased frustration when those complaints appear ignored or shut down.
Again, I'm going to assume you're new because that last paragraph is pretty much wrong on all fronts.
If it's about pure skill and practice instead of skillsets, then surely you can have no objection to letting the rest of the game have access to Glomdoring skillsets and vice versa, and/or rework your skills. Then you can prove once and for all that skill and teamwork is what really matters, and I think life would be easier for Glomdoring as well as for everyone else.
You can have the objection that isn't the way the game is designed and it may not be in the best interest of the game.
But you know you really don't have to be this hypothetical. We don't have to actually write a ton of new code, there's a test server. What size team do you think it would take to make a good test? Put up or shut up time.
@Deichtine The test server not being the proper game is relevant though - the whole point of letting people have access to all skillsets in the base game is that it becomes irrelevant whether your class, or anyone's class, is OP. Great, it is OP, then let's all play as it in the game! Or if it's not, then people can pick whichever class they think is strong. Having people test it out on the test server still will have us arguing about nerfing it, or buffing something else, or some such in the base game if they think it's strong on the test server.
No it doesn't as there would still be archetype issues and not everyone being able to change class.
I find it difficult to believe that previous envoys who have wanted to work on tuning Glom skills have not gone to the test server and produced evidence for their claims.
...
While I am sure that has happened. I am one not sure that changes weren't made. But this isn't something we need to believe. You could simply search the forums, no?
Well I really tried to get you guys to see each other's point of view, but the Glom posters are just using the exact same arguments that the other side has explained at length that they don't buy. And it seems that the other side feel they have been ground into the dust for so long that they have nothing left to give. If neither side gives an inch, we all lose. But I will stop now, because it is becoming apparent that I am having no effect.
There's some benefit in understanding people's points of view. But the internet makes for crappy therapy. And laying people's hurt feelings over their inability to make slam dunk arguments at the feet of Glomdoring is at the very least a type of emotional blackmail.
Here's some homework for you. I mean this in the sense of how you can test your preconceptions here. Comb though the forums and find me one concrete thing that should be changed to a Glomdoring skillset where the person could be arsed to be specific, show their work (aka justify their stance with math or at the very least actual timings), compared to other classes, and present an actual case for a change.
Almost as though no one, just yesterday, wrote a really long and a bit over detailed post analyzing the synergy points and the design flaw in them while comparing them to what the two of the other orgs have in the ways to enable the guardian archetype of the said orgs, with naming skills and elaborating the effects.
"Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."
Why is anyone agreeing to argue on @Enadonella's terms?? What in the absolute hell does any one player's prowess have to do with anything. You could argue the point on those terms, and deflate the outright bs on the basis of absurd claims, but why?
You didn't quote the section, but my guess would be something like we might agree that people's impression of a skill might be impacted by how well it is used?
Yes, it is anecdote. That doesn't change the fact that people left because of it. Which is my entire point.
Do you want a game just consisting of Glomdoring and Gaudiguch? Cause this is the way it happens.
Seriously, just stop. What exactly do you think Gaudiguch has other than people who are willing to be present?
Nothing. But heavily invested people said they left the game because Glom/Gaudi is unbeatable, which may just be a perception, but it is now a heavily ingrained perception. I had hoped that understanding this would lead to something better happening. Why must I stop trying to save the game?
We did a pickup team for the war seal. Two gaudi's, one Glom. No prep, kinda a stretch to say we even had synergy. Did we take second place because we were gaudi and glom skills? No, we took second because of lack of participation.
It likely just isn't possible for the players to change this perception, the admin has to step in and actually provide design guidelines which can be followed and point towards.
Comments
Whoa whoa whoa - my test server is not available for anyone to just jump on at any time. Please do not say that it's ok to do so without first consulting me.
The only time it's ok is when I expressly ask people to test things out.
More generally, I think it's time for me to stop for my own sanity. I'm sorry guys, I really did try to have this conversation honestly, but I don't have the mental energy to continue this.
If people want to look at and try and copy what gaudi is doing right in their own org that sounds like a great idea.
-I'm always happy to give combat advice to people.
-Feel free to pm me too and I can talk you through it outside this thread.
And I think it's incredibly harsh to argue that no one else in this game knows how to nurture novices or they do not spend enough time to understand combat and whatnot, because while everyone is invested in different levels, it's definitely not rocket science to do PvP and to find success in it. I've personally spent hundreds of hours theorizing inter-class synergies (Not because it's a necessity, but because I enjoy, I'm that kind of a nerd), the extinct skillsets and abilities most people have long forgotten about to find some use for them. And again, I've held many IC Combat lectures for dozens of novices, mostly noncoms while I was a GL. I've also done my best to help my friends ond others theorize on their own skillsets. And Aramel has even brought up a script-package that lowered the bar for our novices, from which many benefited and of that we've reaped a lot of success in early 2017, it was still against Veyils and Tarken back then too. And there was still competition, for sure. But people hadn't had enough of Glomdoring at that point. And what I mean by that can be better elaborated as this:
It's not a perception flaw, it's an objective fact that Glomdoring used to raid other orgs (very primarily, Serenwilde) on a daily basis, if not hourly basis for some days. And they were the only org in that 3 year timespan, to do that with high frequency with high participation. A point of exceptional frustration for me was that period of time when Nekotai had access to an instantkill of bleeding and with a design bug abuse they could just open up with their killer stance... And just kill you... Because they could prepare it on their own beasts/allies and what have you. You'd walk into a room and get instakilled in just two balances time, which used to be roughly four to five seconds. Veterans were like, "wtf is this, let's post so this gets fixed. And let's not do any PvP until this is fixed. There's no point in it." But novices were often either discouraged by that steep hill or they were genuinely asking how to counter. Back then we didn't know if there was a counter, and still I don't know. "Just Nekotai things /shrug." was my honest answer. Even without the stance bug abuse they were still leagues beyond what others could do at the time. I had often advised people to try to be more mobile on the field but it didn't really help or solve anything either, since they would still get blasted at one mis-step and they weren't feeling like they were doing anything remarkably useful either. Despite I as a rather experienced combatant back then knew if they were targeting me and I wasn't dying, at least I was kind of buying some time for my team to do something. But even for me the offensive capability was such an uphill battle it was never one to be won, at my end. And yeah, that's exceptionally bland for a novice to accept and then enjoy, even if that situation were to last temporarily, what's there to enjoy for that novice?
But yeah, Nekotai's instantkill got fixed in about a month. Despite Tarken and Veyils farmed a ridiculous K/D ratio of a couple hundred combined during that month, iirc. As I said those were mostly novices or fresh combat enthusiasts because most of the more experienced combatants were opting in to not show up. And those people, back to the point above either a.)Stopped participating in PvP or b.)Genuinely looked for improvements on their ends... And some actually became really good combatants, like coal forming diamond under high pressure. But to survive they had to switch their classes, minmax and play Bard/Monk only. Which was still a legitimate approach last I checked.
Then came Shadowdancers. And boy and did they run around rampant for a while. And then when someone said they couldn't move an inch, or "Hey take a look at this log, I don't know how my mana drained this fast." "Why do I have 4000 bleeding ticks in 10 seconds." I would just answer "Just Shadowtwist. /Shrug." "Just NSB. /Shrug." Because that's what they were. There were no counterparts in the game to justify their strength and oppression over other skillsets. Unless you got a clear numbers or some experience advantage, it just didn't work out to fight those skillsets tooth to tooth. And honestly, accepting that "we" were against something bonkers was the first step for me to start improving and then find some success in the game, instead of believing it was an equal armsrace of whoever is faster with reflexes, whoever has better friends to coordinate with and who's playing smarter on the field. Because only then I could more accurately prioritize their threat level accurately, or only then I accepted that I can never ignore Shadowdancers to do as they please. And it worked for a while too, until it didn't and we got weary, and there were no signs of earth on the horizon in that long long journey. I just jumped ship, as did many others.
So yeah, that's why, probably me and most other people have this very strong opinion about their skillsets, over the span of years. Not because we circlejerk eachother and whine about them forever, I honestly don't even know most of the combatants nowadays at all. But maybe because we've been subject to the same skills and then compared them to what we've, and that's why we're sharing our rather strong opinions. And for the love of everything that's good, please stop, belittling what others had done/are doing in this game.
Late edit: I've just read the post above by @Niwynne. I like you for what you are doing.
-Kilian
Either you're a new player and your overextending your knowledge here or you're an alt and making up crap. I'm assuming the former.
Quit shifting the burden. Glomdoring doesn't have to prove it isn't toxic anymore than any of the other orgs do. It isn't Glomdoring's fault if people are just generally crap at making and presenting their case.
Here's some homework for you. I mean this in the sense of how you can test your preconceptions here. Comb though the forums and find me one concrete thing that should be changed to a Glomdoring skillset where the person could be arsed to be specific, show their work (aka justify their stance with math or at the very least actual timings), compared to other classes, and present an actual case for a change.
Don't get me wrong, I place a lot of the blame for this at the feet of the admin. By often changing things based on people's impressions of things they've fostered the culture we have now. If for no other reason, allowing people to think they've made valid complaints when they haven't has to lead to increased frustration when those complaints appear ignored or shut down.
Again, I'm going to assume you're new because that last paragraph is pretty much wrong on all fronts.
You can have the objection that isn't the way the game is designed and it may not be in the best interest of the game.
But you know you really don't have to be this hypothetical. We don't have to actually write a ton of new code, there's a test server. What size team do you think it would take to make a good test? Put up or shut up time.
While I am sure that has happened. I am one not sure that changes weren't made. But this isn't something we need to believe. You could simply search the forums, no?
There's some benefit in understanding people's points of view. But the internet makes for crappy therapy. And laying people's hurt feelings over their inability to make slam dunk arguments at the feet of Glomdoring is at the very least a type of emotional blackmail.
-Kilian
You didn't quote the section, but my guess would be something like we might agree that people's impression of a skill might be impacted by how well it is used?
We did a pickup team for the war seal. Two gaudi's, one Glom. No prep, kinda a stretch to say we even had synergy. Did we take second place because we were gaudi and glom skills? No, we took second because of lack of participation.
It likely just isn't possible for the players to change this perception, the admin has to step in and actually provide design guidelines which can be followed and point towards.