I've only been playing for a little while (again; I've played Lusternia before!) but even in Gaudiguch, there's a sense that we don't at all want to rock the boat with Glomdoring by the sheer fact that we will end up losing big-time if we do. That's how much power Glomdoring has over the game.
I suspect you've misunderstood something. But, please post an example.
@Aramel go for it. Give everyone the same skillsets. Let's do it!
Edit: I think what people are missing is that if you want certain Glomdoring abilities you need to ensure that you take into consideration the WHOLE skillset and synergy of the org. So people can sit there jumping up and down about our bleed, but to give it to another class or org where that might become unbalanced is not a good idea, but if everyone just wants the whole of the class, then sure, why not?
Deichtine said: I'm not sure what you mean. I'm trying to help and have been actively helping other "enemy" org people with their systems and how to build kills. I'm really not sure whats toxic about that. I can't force people to take part and I can't force people to be positive. All I can do as an individual is keep on doing what I'm doing and helping them directly.
I did not say you were toxic. I did not say your actions to help others were toxic. I have never met you. I don't know who you are. I said people think you are toxic.
Sure, you keep on doing what you are currently doing. That won't change people's perception of you. That won't make people try to fight Glomdoring. That won't stop people leaving.
You are the only person who can change people's perception of you.
Deichtine said: I'm not sure what you mean. I'm trying to help and have been actively helping other "enemy" org people with their systems and how to build kills. I'm really not sure whats toxic about that. I can't force people to take part and I can't force people to be positive. All I can do as an individual is keep on doing what I'm doing and helping them directly.
I did not say you were toxic. I did not say your actions to help others were toxic. I have never met you. I don't know who you are. I said people think you are toxic.
Sure, you keep on doing what you are currently doing. That won't change people's perception of you. That won't make people try to fight Glomdoring. That won't stop people leaving.
Well if I'm helping people I will continue doing that then. I can't change false perceptions instantly but if I keep trying and keep offering help maybe the more open minded people will start to see it.
@Enadonella Yeah, I wouldn't mind playing as a 100% Harbinger in Hallifax for a while. I think it would be good for everyone, honestly - if people are wrong about the skillset and it's not OP, as you claim, then them playing as one will show them that. And if it is OP, well, they have it too so they can't complain. Glom would probably still win most of the time by virtue of being more populated and having more experience, but you know what? I'm okay with losing that way because that's something that people can work on.
It's much more interesting and fun to say "Hey, Enadonella pulled off this cool combo, how did she do that? Let me go Shadowdancer/whatever for a second and brainstorm with my friends and see if I can figure it out" instead of saying "wow, she killed me in 6 seconds with <insert skill here> and I can't do the same back to her because my skillset doesn't have whatever it is."
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Don't worry, Gaudi and Celest are in that same boat.
This is BS. Mag was just too much of a pain and their idea of fun was just not fun for me, so why bother? The reality is Celest, Glomdoring, and Gaudiguch spend a lot of effort trying to be fair and actually supporting each other. Which is not the same thing as saying that other orgs never do that.
There were a lot of individual mags I really liked, respected and had fun with. But as an org mag far too often were overly opportunistic.
Gaudi has at times just talked about going 'merc'. We at one point had a serious discussion of the political stance being it was up to the individual who to fight with.
As to it being 'one person' in mag...no it wasn't.
I know its not the "proper" games but if you want the test server seems to be open to everyone and if you want to play as another class and learn their set up I don't think the admin mind people playing and testing there. You may want to check with Oreal first but I know I've spent a bunch of time on it learning how the other classes work so that I can understand them.
@Deichtine The test server not being the proper game is relevant though - the whole point of letting people have access to all skillsets in the base game is that it becomes irrelevant whether your class, or anyone's class, is OP. Great, it is OP, then let's all play as it in the game! Or if it's not, then people can pick whichever class they think is strong. Having people test it out on the test server still will have us arguing about nerfing it, or buffing something else, or some such in the base game if they think it's strong on the test server.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Quitters gonna quit, haters gonna hate. At the end of the day if people want to see change they have to make change and crying on forums isn't helping. People could be putting this energy into writing reports and have constructive conversation.
What I can say for Glomdoring is that I have never seen so many people have so much patience for the amount of bullying and abuse hurled at them to still keep bothering to try and help. I am personally friendly with a few enemies and while I don't have the ability to help mechanically like my friends do, I try to keep the playing field light-hearted and listen when they get upset. And I see that on all kinds of levels from many of Glomdoring. The people who are crying about toxicity are the ones who aren't civil in return. And there is nothing we can do to combat that!
@Deichtine The test server not being the proper game is relevant though - the whole point of letting people have access to all skillsets in the base game is that it becomes irrelevant whether your class, or anyone's class, is OP. Great, it is OP, then let's all play as it in the game! Or if it's not, then people can pick whichever class they think is strong. Having people test it out on the test server still will have us arguing about nerfing it, or buffing something else, or some such in the base game if they think it's strong on the test server.
Oh yea its just something you can do right now to see how they work and see whats what. Not against other things just saying you can sort of do it now if you want to take the time and learn the class. I'm more than happy to jump on it, I think I've got my system mostly set up over there as well if you need a test dummy to practice on.
EDIT: I mean like a person can jump on Moondancer like I did and spar with it a bit to see how it works. Someone could jump on Harbinger or whatever and do the same thing.
Honestly, I think at the end of the day it doesn't matter if the people leaving are "quitters" or "haters". Population is a real issue in this game, and whether you feel Glomdoring deserves it or not, a number of people have cited it as a mechanical imbalance that contributed to them leaving. We can go all day arguing about whether people who want to leave the game are terrible people, but the truth is that if everyone you're calling a quitter and hater leaves, the game will be in an even worse spot.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
@Aramel I get what you are saying about it not being the proper game. But it does allow for people to see how a class fits on them as a player. I know I often think I would destroy people as new Nihi, but maybe I wouldn't? I know I did okay as old Nihi and they sucked so bad not even the GC's back then played as Nihilists they flexed any chance they got!
Maybe if people tried the test server out they could produce evidence as to how Glomdoring skills are OP and remove the variable which is that you are not Deichtine. Because no one is ever going to fight like her. She gives her setup to damn near everyone and I can honestly say I still don't see her level of skill anywhere in the game, bar Tarken but he is his own brand of awesome. Yes, we have some great combatants, but that doesn't make our skills better. I feel less OP as Glombard than I did as Illum/Nihi. Anyways. If people test it out and provide logs of how suddenly amazing they are as combatants because of a class then this argument will have some actual traction and we can work off of something other than speculation.
I find it difficult to believe that previous envoys who have wanted to work on tuning Glom skills have not gone to the test server and produced evidence for their claims.
I apologize if I'm blunt, but the whole point of this thread is this: balancing skills is exhausting, especially when it involves having to argue with vocal opponents who will defend Glom skills to the death. People don't want to do that anymore; they'd rather not play. And maybe this does make them quitters. People are proposing skillset availability as a solution that will let everyone have access to the skills they believe are necessary to compete, without having to go through the mentally and emotionally taxing process of hours of arguing with Glomdoring.
Edit: replace Glomdoring with org of your choice if you like. That's not relevant to the point of this post.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Well I really tried to get you guys to see each other's point of view, but the Glom posters are just using the exact same arguments that the other side has explained at length that they don't buy. And it seems that the other side feel they have been ground into the dust for so long that they have nothing left to give. If neither side gives an inch, we all lose. But I will stop now, because it is becoming apparent that I am having no effect.
Well jump on the test server and give Glom skills a go and let us know how OP you become! I mean that is the perfect solution right there. If our abilities are really the problem then you guys should have no problem killing Deichtine in a spar as Glomwhatever. I'll volunteer her, hell even make her some crappy class like MD. :P Go nuts!
I am glad that you are enjoying the game and that great things are happening for your org. Unfortunately, this is not the case for everyone and every org, and I think it is very disingenuous to refuse to understand that. Perhaps the future for the game really is that everyone will be in Glomdoring and it will achieve its in-game goal of being the entirety of the Basin.
Edit: Perhaps it is also wise to remember that a lot of us have close friends who left for combat imbalance reasons, and that referencing the people who left as essentially "toxic players who had it coming" is going to make emotions run high.
Well, help me with this. Let's say there are some combat imbalances, do you simply mean 1v1 (which I am less fussed about personally) or do you mean ones that impact group vs group. Even more specifically, can you point to specific combat imbalances that wouldn't be changed by having another person or three on your side?
I believe I have just explained in my post above why I favor skill accessibility and letting people vote with their lessons, over arguing whether or not it's OP, because the thing driving people away from the game isn't just the mechanical imbalance, it's what they have to go through to try to address the mechanical imbalance.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Why is anyone agreeing to argue on @Enadonella's terms?? What in the absolute hell does any one player's prowess have to do with anything. You could argue the point on those terms, and deflate the outright bs on the basis of absurd claims, but why?
The point is that Glomdoring likes to paint all critique as negative in nature, and then either cry "personal attack" or deflect topic when called out.
In fairness, if you put actual critique vs. vague whatever many of these posts amount to then personal attack is by far the norm.
Combat is math. So imbalances shouldn't be all that hard to show.
It probably is more effective to pick a single thing, explain it clearly, show it is a problem instead of dying on the mountain.
I believe I have just explained in my post above why I favor skill accessibility and letting people vote with their lessons, over arguing whether or not it's OP, because the thing driving people away from the game isn't just the mechanical imbalance, it's what they have to go through to try to address the mechanical imbalance.
The question is actually pretty important, this whole thing about like taking a Glom class out of the Glom synergy and fighting a Glom that's using a different orgs class outside of their org synergy (or lack thereof) implies people are talking about 1v1 but a lot of the posts read to me that it's the org synergy itself that's the issue so 1v1'ing each other seems pretty meaningless.
I find it difficult to believe that previous envoys who have wanted to work on tuning Glom skills have not gone to the test server and produced evidence for their claims.
I apologize if I'm blunt, but the whole point of this thread is this: balancing skills is exhausting, especially when it involves having to argue with vocal opponents who will defend Glom skills to the death. People don't want to do that anymore; they'd rather not play. And maybe this does make them quitters. People are proposing skillset availability as a solution that will let everyone have access to the skills they believe are necessary to compete, without having to go through the mentally and emotionally taxing process of hours of arguing with Glomdoring.
Edit: replace Glomdoring with org of your choice if you like. That's not relevant to the point of this post.
I actually much rather have them force us all into the same 5 classes with only cosmetic differences. Giving everyone access to -every- current skill would be hell to implement. Giving them only access to opposing org skills would be equal hell and still give a big imbalance.
5 classes would be a lot of inititial work (mainly picking what template to use from each current org) and rewriting lines and stuff but in the end it will save a lot of time in balancing. Hell it would reduce the mage rework by quite a lot of manhours since they would have to design 1 instead of 6 classes from the ground up. Balancing would be easier, everyone still gets to hold RP flare of their org and so on.
@Saran I don't really doubt that people who still fight in Halli would go SD to my Harbinger if that option were available to us, tbh.
@Esoneyuna I would be open to everyone being forced into five identical classes. In fact, it is my preferred option, and I only suggested giving everyone access to everything on the off chance that it would be easier and faster to implement. If you like the five classes idea, I'm all for it too!
At people arguing in this thread generally: I currently have no horse in this race. I am a player who has been inactive, has recently become slightly less inactive, and may or may not stay that way, depending on the way combat balance goes. In the past, I have spent many hours arguing with the same people on the same topics. Now, as always, anyone who likes is free to ignore me, as you are free to ignore other people who perceive a problem, but there is no law that requires those people to play a game that you enjoy and they do not.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
I suspect that the issue for a lot of players who are leaving isn't that they don't understand their skills and how these skills stack up in combat, but that they do. That said, combat help is always nice; let's just not assume that all Niwynne (or any other player) needs to be competitive is to just "understand their skills" and get good.
Isn't though in some sense? Unless by competitive you mean has to be a top player?
How many competitive players do you think Gaudiguch has?
Yes, it is anecdote. That doesn't change the fact that people left because of it. Which is my entire point.
Do you want a game just consisting of Glomdoring and Gaudiguch? Cause this is the way it happens.
Seriously, just stop. What exactly do you think Gaudiguch has other than people who are willing to be present?
Nothing. But heavily invested people said they left the game because Glom/Gaudi is unbeatable, which may just be a perception, but it is now a heavily ingrained perception. I had hoped that understanding this would lead to something better happening. Why must I stop trying to save the game?
@Saran I don't really doubt that people who still fight in Halli would go SD to my Harbinger if that option were available to us, tbh.
So to be clear, what you're talking about is 1v1 rather than the org synergy other people are talking about.
And realistically, this whole "let's just let everyone have any class" thing is just a massive can of worms that seems liable to only make things worse on top of like... how the nil you explain say a Seren being able to take Blacktalon skills and summon Grutina's mates when one of the main selling points of the game is meant to be its lore.
Or toss everything out the window and design five new classes when an overhaul just to melders has taken how long now?
Comments
I suspect you've misunderstood something. But, please post an example.
Edit: I think what people are missing is that if you want certain Glomdoring abilities you need to ensure that you take into consideration the WHOLE skillset and synergy of the org. So people can sit there jumping up and down about our bleed, but to give it to another class or org where that might become unbalanced is not a good idea, but if everyone just wants the whole of the class, then sure, why not?
Sure, you keep on doing what you are currently doing. That won't change people's perception of you. That won't make people try to fight Glomdoring. That won't stop people leaving.
You are the only person who can change people's perception of you.
Well if I'm helping people I will continue doing that then. I can't change false perceptions instantly but if I keep trying and keep offering help maybe the more open minded people will start to see it.
It's much more interesting and fun to say "Hey, Enadonella pulled off this cool combo, how did she do that? Let me go Shadowdancer/whatever for a second and brainstorm with my friends and see if I can figure it out" instead of saying "wow, she killed me in 6 seconds with <insert skill here> and I can't do the same back to her because my skillset doesn't have whatever it is."
This is BS. Mag was just too much of a pain and their idea of fun was just not fun for me, so why bother? The reality is Celest, Glomdoring, and Gaudiguch spend a lot of effort trying to be fair and actually supporting each other. Which is not the same thing as saying that other orgs never do that.
There were a lot of individual mags I really liked, respected and had fun with. But as an org mag far too often were overly opportunistic.
Gaudi has at times just talked about going 'merc'. We at one point had a serious discussion of the political stance being it was up to the individual who to fight with.
As to it being 'one person' in mag...no it wasn't.
What I can say for Glomdoring is that I have never seen so many people have so much patience for the amount of bullying and abuse hurled at them to still keep bothering to try and help. I am personally friendly with a few enemies and while I don't have the ability to help mechanically like my friends do, I try to keep the playing field light-hearted and listen when they get upset. And I see that on all kinds of levels from many of Glomdoring. The people who are crying about toxicity are the ones who aren't civil in return. And there is nothing we can do to combat that!
EDIT: I mean like a person can jump on Moondancer like I did and spar with it a bit to see how it works. Someone could jump on Harbinger or whatever and do the same thing.
Maybe if people tried the test server out they could produce evidence as to how Glomdoring skills are OP and remove the variable which is that you are not Deichtine. Because no one is ever going to fight like her. She gives her setup to damn near everyone and I can honestly say I still don't see her level of skill anywhere in the game, bar Tarken but he is his own brand of awesome. Yes, we have some great combatants, but that doesn't make our skills better. I feel less OP as Glombard than I did as Illum/Nihi. Anyways. If people test it out and provide logs of how suddenly amazing they are as combatants because of a class then this argument will have some actual traction and we can work off of something other than speculation.
I apologize if I'm blunt, but the whole point of this thread is this: balancing skills is exhausting, especially when it involves having to argue with vocal opponents who will defend Glom skills to the death. People don't want to do that anymore; they'd rather not play. And maybe this does make them quitters. People are proposing skillset availability as a solution that will let everyone have access to the skills they believe are necessary to compete, without having to go through the mentally and emotionally taxing process of hours of arguing with Glomdoring.
Edit: replace Glomdoring with org of your choice if you like. That's not relevant to the point of this post.
Well, help me with this. Let's say there are some combat imbalances, do you simply mean 1v1 (which I am less fussed about personally) or do you mean ones that impact group vs group. Even more specifically, can you point to specific combat imbalances that wouldn't be changed by having another person or three on your side?
In fairness, if you put actual critique vs. vague whatever many of these posts amount to then personal attack is by far the norm.
Combat is math. So imbalances shouldn't be all that hard to show.
It probably is more effective to pick a single thing, explain it clearly, show it is a problem instead of dying on the mountain.
Enadonella and Avurkhos were the only pre buff Nilhist I that I ever saw getting solo kills.
Enadonella put more time and effort in the arena than I've seen almost any single individual.
I think I'd say Rolsand was the person I've seen put in almost as much effort as Ena and you can really see how he's improved as well from the start.
People don't get good overnight. They put in a lot of effect for a little bit of improvement.
5 classes would be a lot of inititial work (mainly picking what template to use from each current org) and rewriting lines and stuff but in the end it will save a lot of time in balancing. Hell it would reduce the mage rework by quite a lot of manhours since they would have to design 1 instead of 6 classes from the ground up. Balancing would be easier, everyone still gets to hold RP flare of their org and so on.
Seriously, just stop. What exactly do you think Gaudiguch has other than people who are willing to be present?
@Esoneyuna I would be open to everyone being forced into five identical classes. In fact, it is my preferred option, and I only suggested giving everyone access to everything on the off chance that it would be easier and faster to implement. If you like the five classes idea, I'm all for it too!
At people arguing in this thread generally: I currently have no horse in this race. I am a player who has been inactive, has recently become slightly less inactive, and may or may not stay that way, depending on the way combat balance goes. In the past, I have spent many hours arguing with the same people on the same topics. Now, as always, anyone who likes is free to ignore me, as you are free to ignore other people who perceive a problem, but there is no law that requires those people to play a game that you enjoy and they do not.
How many competitive players do you think Gaudiguch has?
And realistically, this whole "let's just let everyone have any class" thing is just a massive can of worms that seems liable to only make things worse on top of like... how the nil you explain say a Seren being able to take Blacktalon skills and summon Grutina's mates when one of the main selling points of the game is meant to be its lore.
Or toss everything out the window and design five new classes when an overhaul just to melders has taken how long now?