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Why People are leaving the game

SystemSystem
in Common Grounds
This discussion was created from comments split from: Artifact Review.
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  • DeichtineDeichtine
    Maligorn said:
    Xenthos said:
    Maligorn said:


    The people who are currently happy with the way things are would just keep the status quo (Glomdoring). The last few naysayers would be pushed out, until Glomdoring finishes its chokehold on the game.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Please stop being so toxic.

    Please take your own advice.  I am in Glomdoring, and I think it is pretty obvious that I care about the game and making it easier for players to get into things; I have spent a considerable amount of time on suggesting changes (including a ton of QoL stuff), so I don't see how this kind of comment is in any way productive.

    Hey, I'd be more specific, but I don't want to get accused of "personal attacks" again.

    It's not toxicity; it's just a fact. People have and are continuing to leave the game because of certain extremely dishonest players in Glomdoring. I've witnessed it. It's just not sustainable anymore to lose people. I'm sorry if feeling exposed or targeted makes you uncomfortable - maybe you, Xenthos, could afford to be a positive influence on your fellows!

    But admin can't patch out dishonesty, or sell integrity packs on the ashop. So we'll just have to do with modifying broken artifacts.

    And people are leaving the game due to the negativity expressed by their allies. This thread isn't about it Maligorn. Please stop trying to disrail it.
  • OraelOrael
    Just to clarify, the Shadowtwists and you thread was not closed due to requests by Glomdoring representatives. I can see why it appears that way and Glomdoring was reluctant to discuss it on forums, but the thread itself was not closed at their request. 

    It is also not relevant to this current thread, and I'm going to ask that we do not get de-railed onto this tangent here. If you'd like to start another forum thread, feel free, but this line of discussion shouldn't be here.

  • SazSaz
    Maligorn said:
     I forgot that people that aren't from Glomdoring aren't allowed to defend themselves. 
    Yes of course, thank you for reminding me my place. I stepped out of my boundaries and forgot that we couldn't answer back. It's just, very unfortunately convenient as it had been with those threads. And other attempts to open Glomdoring to discussion. As always. Thanks.
     "Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."

    -Kilian
  • OraelOrael
     If you'd like to start another forum thread, feel free, but this line of discussion shouldn't be here.

    You're welcome to defend yourself, you were not condescending or aggressive so I did not delete your post, only asked you to bring it elsewhere.
  • OraelOrael
    @Saz - I was informed that I could split discussions. so here you go, defend yourselves to your hearts content as long as it is not devolving to insults.
  • SazSaz
    edited March 2019
    @Orael Appreciated. I don't know what more I should say on this particular subject. But I'm likely to attempt opening Glomdoring back to discussion in a different manner, on a different thread, without trying to make it personal with anyone.
     "Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."

    -Kilian
  • SazSaz
    edited March 2019
    @Orael if you could forgive the double post, may I ask why were those shadowtwist discussions threads closed? As you stated, we all thought that way with reason. Actually I think a friend of mine on the envoys back then heard something along the lines of a request? But It has been a while, of course. So I will accept being mistaken. I am just having a hard time guessing what was the reason, that's all.
     "Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."

    -Kilian
  • LycidasLycidas
    Kind of wish my instantly deleted post would be brought here as well. I spent a while typing it up before I even saw the cease post since the thread doesn't update in a live fashion when you're viewing. It brought up a lot of good points of why people are leaving.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Because when one org wins the game and refuses to let other people have their turn, people get bored and GG.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • LycidasLycidas
    Since I was told I needed to re-write my post that was removed, I'll try to do so in a less direct manner. When people are saying Glomdoring, I don't think they truly mean ALL of Glomdoring. It's just like when people claim "Oh, Mag broke a treaty!" it was because of a single person. It is just easier to generalize and say an entire group rather than list out Person A, Person B, Person C etc and also safer. If you start listing the people, now it is personal attacks. As for what Innon said, I have friends in Glom, and there's people I respect and like, they don't go out of their way to cause any trouble and we're only really at odds because game mechanics say fight for this village.
    The simple fact of the matter is, so many things were just blocked out, and even still are in the Envoy system, because they don't want to lose their advantage. It is normal to want to protect whatever advantages you have, just like it's normal for those that don't have it to bring you back in line. Anyway, when people say Glomdoring, they don't mean every citizen, they typically mean the vocal representation: Xenthos, Deichtine, and Enadonella. Yes, there will be others from Glomdoring that voice their opinion and often, but it is safe to say these three are the primary.
    I really do want this to be known, because only people with access to the Envoys chat know anything about this, but because some of these voices are so prominent, their 'suggestions' are often taken and just put into the game. Case in point, the February promotion. We were only thirty minutes into the promotion launch, and the vocal few that purchased it voiced their disliking of Czigany Coins being a possible reward. Nevermind that other people didn't even have a chance to purchase the promotion or give their opinion, it was done without any questions, and silently at that. The announcement post was edited and if you weren't there to read the news or see the Envoys chat in that thirty minutes, you were none the wiser.
    We constantly get "Don't make this Org v Org" in threads and such, but even on OOC levels it will turn out this way. I have no problems with them wanting to protect a very clear advantage that ruins the game for everyone else, but at least acknowledge and admit to it rather than pass blame onto us.

    Accusations against Mag/Halli/Seren:
    1) You spread negativity to your new players
    2) If only you practiced more
    3) If only you were more motivated

    I'm sure there's more, but those are the ones that have been hurled at us in just the past few days, as if the vocal group of Glomdoring (please see my earlier definition) know anything about us and how we operate. The proverbial "git gud" gets thrown at the people making the effort, among other silly comments. But I am genuinely curious, is the game fun for you guys? Is it fun to have no opposition despite their efforts because of "perceived" combat imbalances? The Glomdoring classes have always had superior synergy with their skills, literally always. So I, and I'm sure others, are absolutely dumbfounded in how this vocal group of Glomdoring can sit there and say that you guys are doing nothing wrong, that everyone else is the problem?
  • LycidasLycidas
    Your sentiment is exactly why we lost a slew of players to Starmourn, @Niwynne. It saddens me to know that after multiple months and attempts of trying to correct a system, they left what they saw as a sinking ship. I lost a lot of friends to retirement, all who echoed each other's frustrations.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    edited March 2019
    Why do you keep saying that, Lycidas?  The February promo came out, and it was mentioned that paying $2 per coin was not appealing as an investment.  The administration asked people who had already invested at that point what they thought and made a change, and yet you continue to insist that they did it at the behest of a minority without talking to anyone.  It just makes no sense why you keep asserting something that simply is not true.

    This month you can get a coin for collecting 6 shamrocks, every day.  That's awesome.  Would I pay $2 for that same coin?  No thanks.  Apparently other people felt the same way.

    You also lump us together for some reason, despite us all being different people.  I fully support adjusting all three of the current wonder items without delays, and have made multiple posts on that front.  If you don't care to read what each of us is actually writing and instead assume that we are always in lockstep... well, I am not sure what to say there.  I disagree with people on my "side" too, and I am more than happy to say so.  I want Lusternia to be full of people as much as anyone else does, and I am indeed very passionate about this game, hence my outspokenness. 

    Saying that I am trying to protect a "very clear advantage" when there is ample evidence to the contrary is a bit over the top, as well.  I would encourage you to actually read posts and not just look at us all as being "the unified opposition" -- because we are not, we are players each with our own opinions and experiences too.

    image
  • LycidasLycidas
    Why do I keep saying it? Because it is true and people deserve to know. This was discussed in Envoys too and you tried to say it wasn't you. You fought to change the promotion before people could even see what it was or participate. It was brought up in that discussion that there are going to be people who wanted those coins, because people value things differently than you do. None-the-less, the small group of people who were able to purchase it immediately upon release changed it for everyone, and nobody even got to know. It is true, I can easily tag the people involved in that conversation and I promise you, they'll agree that you and a small group insisted the coins be removed.

    As for how I'm lumping you all together? Please go quote me on something where I'm specifically lumping you and other individuals together. If I thought you were just a hive-mind and couldn't form opinions for yourselves, then I'd have a different choice of words. My only 'lumping' of people together is by giving what most people mean by when they say 'Glomdoring'. Take your advice, and read the posts. As for ample evidence to the contrary, please enlighten us. The mass exodus and the few more that are trickling out all had one thing in common, something you missed in my post. If you think Glomdoring is perfectly balanced and has no clear edge in class skills and synergy, and you attribute all the success to being 'good' at the game, then as you put it, "... well, I am not sure what to say there." I can go into examples if you'd like, proving my points, but they'll just be seen as personal attacks as always.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    You just did so in the post I was replying to, in fact.  You lumped us all together with the term "vocal group" (you even made an explicit term for this), and then went on to say that this group is universally telling you to "git gud" / etc.  Again, we are all different people.

    As far as ample evidence: I just cited three entirely different threads where I supported changes to how things work to help game balance become better.  I specifically have said time and again that I want these changes sooner rather than later.

    I have also never denied that I had no interest in paying $2 per coin.  I did not then, I still do not now.  Mentioning it simply led to further investigation, it was not changed on that alone (nor should it have been).  As far as I am concerned, asking the people who invested what they preferred to get from their investment was a good idea, and that is precisely what they did.
    image
  • AnaklusmosAnaklusmos
    The bias towards Glomdoring has been present for years, in every instance that I've managed to convince myself to try Lusternia again (and again, and again). It's going to continue to be present, and its presence will continue to be denied.

    Might be easier to just pretend Glomdoring doesn't exist. Focus on the systems that do not cater to Glomdoring's mechanical advantages (mainly in combat, although the Glomdoring privilege does extend quite far).

    WHY WE FIGHT
    Accountability is necessary.
  • LycidasLycidas
    Lycidas said:
    I'm sure there's more, but those are the ones that have been hurled at us in just the past few days, as if the vocal group of Glomdoring (please see my earlier definition) know anything about us and how we operate. The proverbial "git gud" gets thrown at the people making the effort, among other silly comments. But I am genuinely curious, is the game fun for you guys? Is it fun to have no opposition despite their efforts because of "perceived" combat imbalances? The Glomdoring classes have always had superior synergy with their skills, literally always. So I, and I'm sure others, are absolutely dumbfounded in how this vocal group of Glomdoring can sit there and say that you guys are doing nothing wrong, that everyone else is the problem?
    Decided to do the quote for you, and considering that they are separate thoughts, separated by punctuation, it is a stretch to say it's only you three telling people to "git gud". No no, reading the sentence that is there, the vocal group likes to pretend they know how our orgs operate. You less than others, certainly. Is that lumping you up? Not even a little bit. So the ample evidence that the clear advantage isn't trying to be protected is participation in artifact change threads? You know...the thing everybody has access to and -isn't- a Glomdoring advantage? As for this investigation about the February promotion is just...sad. You cannot tell me in good faith you think thirty minutes with a very small sample size of the playerbase, before the majority of said playerbase could even login or participate, it was a good idea. There was no forums discussion, there was no public discussion. It was started on Envoys and ended swiftly. I do agree that asking people who invest in your game and product is smart and a good idea, but that is the problem at hand. They did ask, and only got to hear from those that just happened to be online when it went live. Even if I'm being generous and say that vocal minority was 10% of the playerbase, which it isn't, that's still no where near enough to just remove it.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    I can in good faith say it; the people who invested were consulted, and the reply was that they thought their investment would be better without the coins.  Continually stating that they made the change without consultation does not make it any more factual (though I do appreciate that you are now acknowledging that there was more than just the envoys conversation).

    Part of the whole "artifacts" issue has also been: "Glomdoring tends to have more artifacts and thus the artifact imbalance favours them."  All three of those are, in fact, artifact powers that I possess, and for the good of the game I am more than willing to see them be changed.

    Also, just in that segment you quote there, in the very same paragraph, you end one sentence with "vocal group" and go on to say "git gud" in the very next sentence.  They are very much linked thoughts in your post, whether you intended them that way or not.
    image
  • InnonInnon
    I will just say in the past investment was hid behind heavily, and thankfully FTP takes that defense out of the equation. 
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    (The following diatribe has "Glomdoring" sprinkled pretty liberally throughout it.  That can be replaced with pretty much any other org.)

    I lump all Glomdoring members together when I say "Glomdoring" just like I lump all admin together when I say "admin". It should be obvious to anyone who isn't trying to be pedantic that I (and the rest of us) don't actually mean "all Glomdoring players ever" any more than we mean "All admin ever".

    A vast majority of Glomdoring players are not toxic. A vast majority of Glomdoring players are constructive, helpful people who want to see Lusternia succeed. A vast majority of Glomdoring want to actually fight evenly matched foes, win or lose,  and go home satisfied at the end of the day knowing they represented their home well, and it's worth it to stick around.

    But there are some in the org that take it too far. They urge people in their org not to join certain clans, or discord channels, or the forums because they don't want those people seeing the complaints against Glomdoring or knowing that anything is wrong. "They hate us because they ain't us." is a sort of motto for these people, and they're pretty vocal about their disdain, both icly and oocly, for people who aren't part of their group. They overlook the toxicity from themselves and other members of their org, and instead focus on pointing out the toxicity in other orgs,  using this as some sort of explanation of why things are the way they are.


    ------------

    Let's face it, Glomdoring has been on top for some time now. They've snowballed and haven't lost very much momentum. This snowballing isn't just because their skills have great synergy, though this feeds heavily into it. This snowballing isn't just because they work their asses off and train to succeed, although this is a massive part of their success. The snowballing isn't because the admin favor Glomdoring. Probably.

    Something that hinders changes that might effect Glomdoring is that a vast majority of the well-known players in Glomdoring are long term players. They oppose changes which might weaken their skills because they haven't had to spend irl years fighting against these skills. They see them as balanced because they use them. It's a sort of privilege in one way, if you think about it, because it's not a big deal to Glomdoring because it doesn't effect them.

    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • LycidasLycidas
    I made no such acknowledgement of anything outside the Envoys conversation, because as far as anybody is aware, except maybe to that small group, that's the only place it happened. You also have a knack for equivocation of things that shouldn't mix. Nobody is saying it went without consultation, it is being said that it was done with MINIMAL consultation. As for people saying that Glom has more artifacts and the imbalance favors them...who? Who is saying that? On that topic, do you think that changing those three powers is going to just magically fix combat and Glomdoring won't have an edge at all?
  • LycidasLycidas
    Don't worry, Gaudi and Celest are in that same boat.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Lycidas said:
    I made no such acknowledgement of anything outside the Envoys conversation, because as far as anybody is aware, except maybe to that small group, that's the only place it happened. You also have a knack for equivocation of things that shouldn't mix. Nobody is saying it went without consultation, it is being said that it was done with MINIMAL consultation. As for people saying that Glom has more artifacts and the imbalance favors them...who? Who is saying that? On that topic, do you think that changing those three powers is going to just magically fix combat and Glomdoring won't have an edge at all?
    Here's one, re: featherweight charm.
    Lycidas said:
    @ Deichtine It might be standard for you and your friends that you run with, but not many people consider it a standard or must-have.
    My Discord search ability is not very good.  The closest I found outside of the recent artifact discussions was an anonymized discussion by Aeldra on the topic of raiding in the middle of 2018 (discussing Joe the Heavily Artifacted Raider, which I believe was at a time when Glomdoring was raiding excessively), and then a post about Tarken specifically having "all the artifacts for every class."  Generally it's more of a matter of the artifact complaints generally coming from the people who those artifacts are used against vs. the people who are using them.  If you really want to contest the impression that Glomdoring's fighters tend to have more artifacts than other org's potential fighters, I'll retract the statement, it doesn't bother me that much either way.

    The end goal, however, is to lessen the impact of artifacts that skew balance the most.  I think that having IllSelf not available to everyone will help realign stuff and make classes that are reliant on damage kills more viable again.  Purify's will help meld classes out, without nullifying their entire primary skillset.  And that Charm... I mean, it just lets you essentially ignore rooting as a mechanic if you set up a couple of triggers/aliases.  The changes bring things back towards a better baseline.  Is it perfect?  No; I mentioned another artifact I was concerned about, and included a summary listing of stuff that other people brought up as well.  But I do agree that these are some pretty egregious outliers that need addressing stat, and other stuff can be worked on if people bring them forward with good solutions and/or willingness to work towards good solutions.
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  • LycidasLycidas
    Another swing and a miss. I am puzzled on how me saying what she and her friends consider standard, isn't considered standard or must-have by many. Fixing these three artifacts isn't going to even come close to the combat imbalances that have persisted for years, nor are their changes going to make it a fair fight. As for the discussion you mentioned, it doesn't help that it was anonymous, but at least it is something tangible to reference. Class artifacts aren't what cause imbalance, most of them are pretty tame and entirely not required....except out of melders who really do need that Demesne and Domain rune combo.
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