Seems to take far longer than two hours to get to 20. Either I'm bad at this game or stuff needs to be easier.
Yep, I've done testing at each stage of the game because I want this to be balanced for everyone to be around 2 hours regardless of who they are (or faster).
@Orael I think something that would massively help is if things had their own diminishing returns. Bashing has its own scale, Influence has its own scale, Domoth has its own scale, etc. I do not mean for this to sound like an attack if it comes off as one but; Is the point of this system to make it a reward for playing the game, or are we getting the slog known as MMORPG dailies that you HATE logging in for, but do it because you need the currency? Is there a reason we're trying to make this system so difficult, is there something wrong with letting it be something easy? The way I see it, let people breeze through if they're artifact heavy or knowledgeable about the game. I'm not suggesting we go to just 'Have 2 hours of login time and get 20 credits' easy, but we shouldn't be having to fight this hard for the same shared, extremely limited resources that acts like a part-time job with the dedication needed to grind for these.
Can we lower the thresholds and just give things their own diminishing scale? That would make the system so much more accessible to people, and you'll see more people actively doing things, rather than walking around the mountains, seeing a glowing stone on the ground, and just going back to their home to wait another 15 minutes to hope they catch this wave of respawns.
In Changelog 1646, what did you mean by "Adjusted how villages count participation. Doing the same thing to earn daily credits will also earn village participation"
Are org points for public designs max 50 per IC year, or some other time period?
Do both theater plays and library books count towards the same 50 org point max per IC year, or are they in separate pools?
1) The domoth daily credit rewards just award a tick of credits for spending ~10-15 spawns of the domoth item on the bubble 2) Yes, aetherhunting still uses tiers. I don't know that anyone has tried it since I attempted to fix it. 3) Anything that will earn you daily credits in a village revolt will also count towards participation for your org. 4) per IC Year 5) Separate, you can 50 points for books and plays.
Point 3 is a really good change. Seren and Halli did a ton of work in the last revolt and got no org stuff for it. That change lets them get points it feels like they should have got. :thumbsup:
If one of us isn't hitting 20 cr in 2 hrs, I think we should help out ourselves and the staff/volunteers by being specific. At what lvl, what activities, for how long, led to how many credits? Vague statements that leave out that information are not actually solvable.
Lycidas said: @Orael I think something that would massively help is if things had their own diminishing returns. Bashing has its own scale, Influence has its own scale, Domoth has its own scale, etc.
Edit: Nevermind, Xenthos cleared up my misunderstanding.
What I said before:
Afaik this is already how the system works. Decrementing ticks. (Except for domoths which can be gamed easily.) Bashing, influence, domoth are all separate point pools. @Lycidas, if you want the system to be easier, do you mean:
giving lvl 1-60 a higher point multiplier
giving lvl 61 to 99 more than only 1/2 the points of lvl 1-60
giving lvl 100+ more than only 1/4 the points of lvl 1-60
reducing the points needed to get a tick overall, eg making it 500 points instead of 1000 points per tick
not changing the points per tick, but increasing credit values per tick, eg 8 cr for the first 1k points rather than 5 cr
Or, do you want a different system of giving diminishing returns altogether? In that case, what would your preferred system look like?
He is suggesting decrementing ticks that are independent. So you could do 2000 hunting points for 9cr (5+4), then two comm ticks for another 9 (5+4). If we keep the current 1,000 point threshold and 40 comm things per that probably would put us back around two hours in general (rounding up 120 does take a bit of moving). Lower end demis would take longer probably, trying to get their 2k kills (and it is a lot slower to get influences).
I would personally prefer my earlier statement above, but it is another option. I think basically everyone is in agreement that it needs some more tweaking (including the admin!), they just want the data on how it looks after each tweak.
Hi, background and a bit of credentials. My former job is not something I talk about often. I was an amateur game designer until a couple years ago(Work has been featured in some OSR stuff, and I've done work for video games in the writing and general designing departments as well.) and a former games tester for foreign Free to Play business model MMO's before that, focusing on testing their shop systems, pricing models and mtx systems as they transitioned to English, with an eye on making the systems appealing to western audiences. Some of my feedback was used in the initial release of mmo's, and I typically worked before general testers got to see the systems under strict NDA's. I did this independently, and also typically got paid for my work. Along the way I was also a column writer for a now defunct MMO news site. I love MMO's and the games they led me too in the form of MUDs, and they(MUDs) are my favorite types of games. The creativity I see is amazing.
What follows is a general critique and not at all an example of the quality I used to put out. This game is more passion than project for me. So I am also posting this mostly unedited. These are my suggestions and opinions and shouldn't be interpreted as orders or recipes for success in any way.
1. The system at current is working sub-optimally. But I want to start with at least five of the positives I've found.
A. The ability to gain credits in general as a free player.
B. The Org Credits system as a whole, with tweaking will be amazing, and the large boost to organization credit intake will allow the active players to be rewarded within the orgs they are a part of.
C. The stated time amount of 2 hours is a reasonable amount of time to expect someone to devote to just currency acquisition per day. And the allotment is a decent and fair amount if you were to work out a valuation per hour. This means that players will likely consider it a good idea to do each day. The general model I tended to recommend for MtX systems where currency is earnable in game is 2 45 minute tasks for big rewards, and miscellaneous tasks that can be done in the intervening time periods between the larger tasks.
D. The lack of requirement to engage in PvP is a vastly good thing. Though competing for spawns would be better to be mitigated relatively rapidly. Either by increasing the amount of comm and power quest spawns. Or by another solution
E. We are fast approaching the first full in game year with this system implemented and I'm curious to see the changes that will be made in the next one to the points gathering for orgs and other things whose problems may only be apparent later.
2. The system needs to be either standardized completely or loosened up in it's rigidity. With Lusternia as a game, there's too broad of a level of character power at max level due to arties and such, to be balanced for all parties, this would be an impossible goal. Instead, I would advise thusly this.
Solution to Power Curve Proposal Standardized Rewards for tiers.
A tiered system, wherein tasks on prime reward lower leveled players. And going deeper in the planes rewards higher level players more. For instance, I'd say forbid demi's from even doing more than a set amount of comm's quests ticks a year in game. Say 4 allotments of credits worth. These should be part of the fillers. And left for novice and non-demi players otherwise.
The ultimate goal for this system would be to funnel players to level appropriate goals to earn their credits. Possibly even add a suggested tasks tracker each day that gives randomized tasks and quest suggestions that would include things like at circle 80 clear the CITY POWERBEAST PLANE and convert power for a set credit reward per 20 beasts killed or essence converted. Tasks like this will help structure and open up the game by providing explicit things to do.
This would see the most amount of work on your parts as developers, but in my opinion if done correctly would see the players the most satisfied at all levels.
Solution to Power Curve Proposal Loosen rigidity
Accept the free form nature of power levels in Lusternia. And rather than funneling those players to tiered tasks, keep the system as is, but lower the requirements for ticks vastly, make it too where any one allotment of 1 or more credit takes 10 minutes or less to complete. And add a what I used to term, "Idlers cut" That is a reward that will tick at certain intervals of log in time. Probably only 4-5 credits per day maximum on this and only trickling up while not in a manse, but it's enough that even if you get pulled into an RP session or tutoring a newbie, you still don't feel like you're losing much out. Which is a big problem right now. People aren't wanting to RP because it's taking all their effort to gain credits. That they will feel obligated to get.
This would see an appreciable amount of work to tweak and loosen the rigidity and make sure spawns are just right, but the ultimate result would be a system where everyone and I mean everyone could feel like they are earning at least some credits.
3. There needs to be a bonus for doing honours quests and harder achievements beyond just daily credits. A variable reward of 10-50cr per achievement and honours line would do a lot to help get players feeling motivated to do things. These would have to exist outside the daily credits system. But they would go a long way to incentivising gameplay.
4. If you are counting on the timequake or any other pvp event to equalize the credit gain, don't. There's a massive segment of players which do not like pvp and feel like they cannot contribute to pvp in a manner that justifies frustration. Making the daily credits system hinge on any conflict or pvp even will ultimately dissatisfy players. I'm not saying do not reward daily credits for conflict. In fact. DO, but be aware that relying on conflict to drive the credits system will, in my experience alienate a portion of your userbase.
5. Incentivise conflict more for PvPers, make raiding elemental or cosmic planes and converting essence and creatures reward a daily ORG credit tick for say a max of 20 credits per org at like 1000 essence converted or something. Make converting cosmic beasts and also killing them contribute to personal credit ticks and org credits. Incentivise these smaller conflicts, and provide reasons for raiding that currently don't exist. You don't have to introduce brand new sources of conflict to do this.
6. Touching on guilds momentarily, Timequakes sound awesome but guilds also need a bit of work in the logistics department. The ultimate goal with guilds from what I understand should be to enhance a cities narrative and a cities prestige, in that regard, provide a reward in addition to the city reward but inside a city, to guilds. That they can compete for to become the most productive and get some form of reward, whether that's in the form of credits or an allotment of gold.
7. I think the framework you have right now is barebones but a wonderful start to the system and am excited to see where this might be going in the future.
He is suggesting decrementing ticks that are independent. So you could do 2000 hunting points for 9cr (5+4), then two comm ticks for another 9 (5+4). If we keep the current 1,000 point threshold and 40 comm things per that probably would put us back around two hours in general (rounding up 120 does take a bit of moving). Lower end demis would take longer probably, trying to get their 2k kills (and it is a lot slower to get influences).
I would personally prefer my earlier statement above, but it is another option. I think basically everyone is in agreement that it needs some more tweaking (including the admin!), they just want the data on how it looks after each tweak.
I like the concept of having things on different ticks like that.
Getting 5 then 4 for doing 2 comm quests then getting 5 then 4 for bashing 2000 points eg
My biggest issue with the system is that we could do with more ways for groups to bash and get dailys together. Being able to bash up together and share the rewards as a group in imperian was a bit bonus and a nice element in bring orgs together.
@Orael can you post the credits rewards for each quest rank please? Rank 3 is 1cr, rank 5 is 5cr, rank 10 is 20cr, but what are the rest?
If we're going by the extreme fastest time possible if you know precisely the optimal method and steps (unrealistic for many reasons), most of the ones 5+ are disproportionately translated because of how many credits the rank 5 award is worth for example. The 1-10 time rating is good (pending some tweaks/testing) for how they compare in time in relation to each other, but not in the context of how many credits they translate to in the DC system.
Possible solutions: - Anything that takes over 2 hours needs to just be a 10 (or max) rating (i.e. most of the current 6+ ones). If 2 hours is the goal, that seems simple enough. IMO this needs to be implemented regardless of the below ideas. - Re-scale the rating system to go from 1-20, and then fine-tune each one further - Change values of what the 3-10 ratings translate to.
With quests, you get points in bashing/influencing. Largely, that aspect can just be thrown out entirely as the points end up being trivial for most quests.
Sooooo the ticks earned before the changelog will still be under the previous system (ie I hit 1000 points hunting and influencing but only got 5 + 4 cr) suck it up for today and look forward to tomorrow?
Sooooo the ticks earned before the changelog will still be under the previous system (ie I hit 1000 points hunting and influencing but only got 5 + 4 cr) suck it up for today and look forward to tomorrow?
The reason the commquests are at 40 and why other parts are being increased is to stop commquests from becoming the default way to get your daily credits. We want it to be an option, but we don't want it to be the best default option everyone flocks to.
1) Reduce time focusing on flares from 10 minutes to 5 minutes. A flare is already pretty short and focusing requires that you be in one specific room (unlike a village, aether bubble, or astral where you can run around). We had people who I grabbed to focus on it, one made it to 9 mins and 30 seconds (so close!), the other was closer to 5.
2) Giving influence an additional multiplier for everyone, because it is slower than hunting. Or adjusting its thresholds downward a bit.
Note that I don't spend a lot of time influencing myself, but I am thinking that there is still a fair difference between the hunting side and the influencing side in terms of timing.
Xenthos and I seem to be on the same page, did some testing on influence speed with a common value as a Demi
13/13 influence (empower in this case)
Brave on analyze (weak to empower)
Worth 3 or 4 points (This is guards, kephera, and so so so many things to influence)
Took about 20 seconds with equilbrium food from WonderCornucopia, so only a 1 buff weight. Taking into consideration that speed and power behind it, it takes about 55 minutes of continuous influencing to reach that 500 points. It will obviously be slower than that because movement is a thing and so is balance speed after the final influence, so lets just say 57 total minutes for good measure. A -possible- suggestion is rather than using GreatHunt scoring for influence, make the points based on how much esteem they give? Base amount, not the modified end number. So in this example, a kephera warrior would be worth 9 points, a city guard would be 8 etc. If using these new numbers we'd get about 20 minutes for that 500 points. Speeds up the process for everyone and would align it with the 2 hour goal assuming this is that person's primary way of gaining experience/essence.
I'm planning on looking at flares later tonight, I didn't prioritize it last night since the flares just happened, but will look tonight.
I was under the impression that the scores for influencing were already adjusted so they were a viable route within great hunts. That's something we can look at though
You rock, want me to go 'round and find the popular targets and their values and see based on GH value and esteem value? I'm sure we the playerbase can scrounge some numbers and math it up.
Edit: Problem! It's not 500 points, let me demonstrate:
You've earned 0 of 20 daily credits. Here's where you stand today. Influencing: 501 points 10300h, 12125m, 9971e, 10p x<>-C You just earned 5 daily credits. You can earn 15 more. 10300h, 12225m, 10438e, 10p x<>-dailycredits You've earned 5 of 20 daily credits. Here is what you've done today: Earned 500 points influencing denizens. - 5 credits Here's where you stand today. Influencing: 504 points
That was mentioned with killing too, I think it's just a sign issue. You get the tick on your first kill / influence when you are above the threshold, not on the one that tips you over it.
Comments
Point 3 is a really good change. Seren and Halli did a ton of work in the last revolt and got no org stuff for it. That change lets them get points it feels like they should have got. :thumbsup:
What I said before:
@Lycidas, if you want the system to be easier, do you mean:
- giving lvl 1-60 a higher point multiplier
- giving lvl 61 to 99 more than only 1/2 the points of lvl 1-60
- giving lvl 100+ more than only 1/4 the points of lvl 1-60
- reducing the points needed to get a tick overall, eg making it 500 points instead of 1000 points per tick
- not changing the points per tick, but increasing credit values per tick, eg 8 cr for the first 1k points rather than 5 cr
Or, do you want a different system of giving diminishing returns altogether? In that case, what would your preferred system look like?Hi, background and a bit of credentials. My former job is not something I talk about often. I was an amateur game designer until a couple years ago(Work has been featured in some OSR stuff, and I've done work for video games in the writing and general designing departments as well.) and a former games tester for foreign Free to Play business model MMO's before that, focusing on testing their shop systems, pricing models and mtx systems as they transitioned to English, with an eye on making the systems appealing to western audiences. Some of my feedback was used in the initial release of mmo's, and I typically worked before general testers got to see the systems under strict NDA's. I did this independently, and also typically got paid for my work. Along the way I was also a column writer for a now defunct MMO news site. I love MMO's and the games they led me too in the form of MUDs, and they(MUDs) are my favorite types of games. The creativity I see is amazing.
What follows is a general critique and not at all an example of the quality I used to put out. This game is more passion than project for me. So I am also posting this mostly unedited. These are my suggestions and opinions and shouldn't be interpreted as orders or recipes for success in any way.
1. The system at current is working sub-optimally. But I want to start with at least five of the positives I've found.
A. The ability to gain credits in general as a free player.
B. The Org Credits system as a whole, with tweaking will be amazing, and the large boost to organization credit intake will allow the active players to be rewarded within the orgs they are a part of.
C. The stated time amount of 2 hours is a reasonable amount of time to expect someone to devote to just currency acquisition per day. And the allotment is a decent and fair amount if you were to work out a valuation per hour. This means that players will likely consider it a good idea to do each day. The general model I tended to recommend for MtX systems where currency is earnable in game is 2 45 minute tasks for big rewards, and miscellaneous tasks that can be done in the intervening time periods between the larger tasks.
D. The lack of requirement to engage in PvP is a vastly good thing. Though competing for spawns would be better to be mitigated relatively rapidly. Either by increasing the amount of comm and power quest spawns. Or by another solution
E. We are fast approaching the first full in game year with this system implemented and I'm curious to see the changes that will be made in the next one to the points gathering for orgs and other things whose problems may only be apparent later.
2. The system needs to be either standardized completely or loosened up in it's rigidity. With Lusternia as a game, there's too broad of a level of character power at max level due to arties and such, to be balanced for all parties, this would be an impossible goal. Instead, I would advise thusly this.
Solution to Power Curve Proposal Standardized Rewards for tiers.
A tiered system, wherein tasks on prime reward lower leveled players. And going deeper in the planes rewards higher level players more. For instance, I'd say forbid demi's from even doing more than a set amount of comm's quests ticks a year in game. Say 4 allotments of credits worth. These should be part of the fillers. And left for novice and non-demi players otherwise.
The ultimate goal for this system would be to funnel players to level appropriate goals to earn their credits. Possibly even add a suggested tasks tracker each day that gives randomized tasks and quest suggestions that would include things like at circle 80 clear the CITY POWERBEAST PLANE and convert power for a set credit reward per 20 beasts killed or essence converted. Tasks like this will help structure and open up the game by providing explicit things to do.
This would see the most amount of work on your parts as developers, but in my opinion if done correctly would see the players the most satisfied at all levels.
Solution to Power Curve Proposal Loosen rigidity
Accept the free form nature of power levels in Lusternia. And rather than funneling those players to tiered tasks, keep the system as is, but lower the requirements for ticks vastly, make it too where any one allotment of 1 or more credit takes 10 minutes or less to complete. And add a what I used to term, "Idlers cut" That is a reward that will tick at certain intervals of log in time. Probably only 4-5 credits per day maximum on this and only trickling up while not in a manse, but it's enough that even if you get pulled into an RP session or tutoring a newbie, you still don't feel like you're losing much out. Which is a big problem right now. People aren't wanting to RP because it's taking all their effort to gain credits. That they will feel obligated to get.
This would see an appreciable amount of work to tweak and loosen the rigidity and make sure spawns are just right, but the ultimate result would be a system where everyone and I mean everyone could feel like they are earning at least some credits.
3. There needs to be a bonus for doing honours quests and harder achievements beyond just daily credits. A variable reward of 10-50cr per achievement and honours line would do a lot to help get players feeling motivated to do things. These would have to exist outside the daily credits system. But they would go a long way to incentivising gameplay.
4. If you are counting on the timequake or any other pvp event to equalize the credit gain, don't. There's a massive segment of players which do not like pvp and feel like they cannot contribute to pvp in a manner that justifies frustration. Making the daily credits system hinge on any conflict or pvp even will ultimately dissatisfy players. I'm not saying do not reward daily credits for conflict. In fact. DO, but be aware that relying on conflict to drive the credits system will, in my experience alienate a portion of your userbase.
5. Incentivise conflict more for PvPers, make raiding elemental or cosmic planes and converting essence and creatures reward a daily ORG credit tick for say a max of 20 credits per org at like 1000 essence converted or something. Make converting cosmic beasts and also killing them contribute to personal credit ticks and org credits. Incentivise these smaller conflicts, and provide reasons for raiding that currently don't exist. You don't have to introduce brand new sources of conflict to do this.
6. Touching on guilds momentarily, Timequakes sound awesome but guilds also need a bit of work in the logistics department. The ultimate goal with guilds from what I understand should be to enhance a cities narrative and a cities prestige, in that regard, provide a reward in addition to the city reward but inside a city, to guilds. That they can compete for to become the most productive and get some form of reward, whether that's in the form of credits or an allotment of gold.
7. I think the framework you have right now is barebones but a wonderful start to the system and am excited to see where this might be going in the future.
Neela
EDIT: PS I may have more to say at a later date.
I like the concept of having things on different ticks like that.
Getting 5 then 4 for doing 2 comm quests then getting 5 then 4 for bashing 2000 points eg
If we're going by the extreme fastest time possible if you know precisely the optimal method and steps (unrealistic for many reasons), most of the ones 5+ are disproportionately translated because of how many credits the rank 5 award is worth for example. The 1-10 time rating is good (pending some tweaks/testing) for how they compare in time in relation to each other, but not in the context of how many credits they translate to in the DC system.
Possible solutions:
- Anything that takes over 2 hours needs to just be a 10 (or max) rating (i.e. most of the current 6+ ones). If 2 hours is the goal, that seems simple enough. IMO this needs to be implemented regardless of the below ideas.
- Re-scale the rating system to go from 1-20, and then fine-tune each one further
- Change values of what the 3-10 ratings translate to.
With quests, you get points in bashing/influencing. Largely, that aspect can just be thrown out entirely as the points end up being trivial for most quests.
Tome of Remembrance just got me 5. Helping Kravch gives me 3.
Edit: Anddddd there's the changelog.
The reason the commquests are at 40 and why other parts are being increased is to stop commquests from becoming the default way to get your daily credits. We want it to be an option, but we don't want it to be the best default option everyone flocks to.
Should this not be limited to one per wildnodes?
I was under the impression that the scores for influencing were already adjusted so they were a viable route within great hunts. That's something we can look at though
I'll think about that commquest suggestion more.
Here's where you stand today.
Influencing: 501 points
10300h, 12125m, 9971e, 10p x<>-C
You just earned 5 daily credits. You can earn 15 more.
10300h, 12225m, 10438e, 10p x<>-dailycredits
You've earned 5 of 20 daily credits.
Here is what you've done today:
Earned 500 points influencing denizens. - 5 credits
Here's where you stand today.
Influencing: 504 points
I'll get it tonight