Its just a straight comparison between two systems. The Lusternia one and the Imperian one. Sorry if you don't like the word deliberately but I wasn't really sure how else to word it. There's dramatic changes to how the Lusternian one has been implemented vs the Imperian one and that's fine. It's fine if you want the systems to be quite different.
As I understand it you've made a choice to make questing, writing and designing much more important in the Lusternia system than the Imperian system. Again I'm not saying this is a bad thing. If I'm wrong and this isn't a choice but an accident then again sorry for misunderstanding how it was explained on discord and on this forum.
No, saying things like 'you deliberately reduced the impact' and 'you consciously put less emphasisis on bashing and conflict' is not a comparison of two systems, but a statement on what we intended to do with this system. We did not deliberately reduce the impact of conflict mechanics. We implemented a system based on Imperian's model but adjusted for what we have in Lusternia. We did not put an emphasis on any one part but rather tried to make a system that all players could feel like they could participate in.
That's what we've said from Day 1. We're not trying to 'reduce' any impact. We're not trying to 'focus' on anything. We're trying to make multiple viable approaches so multiple players and playing styles can take advantage. If you're trying to compare two systems, then compare the systems and stop trying to dictate our intentions, especially when they go against what we've stated.
Another thing is, this isn't Imperian, and we really should stop trying to equate or compare the two. Inspiration was taken, nothing more. Let us continue to work with the admins that are trying to make this fair for everyone and have at least some way to engage the game and feel like they're a credit to their org.
Another thing is, this isn't Imperian, and we really should stop trying to equate or compare the two. Inspiration was taken, nothing more. Let us continue to work with the admins that are trying to make this fair for everyone and have at least some way to engage the game and feel like they're a credit to their org.
The problem is that we as players were told that the system is based on Imperian, so people are going to think it is like that. And that we have other players saying Imperian has systems in place that a player there can get their 20 dailycredits in 2 hours from doing a single thing (hunting mobs in the examples, because they have spawnwaves). Our system was designed where that wasn't really possible and intended that you use more than one system.
Back before we even had details, I'm sure a lot of people thought they were just going to be bashing/influencing for 2 hours for their 20cr.
Based on doesn't mean carbon copy. Expectations for it to be near identical without details should be let go as easily as they were created. I understand that Imperian does things their way, and it didn't hit the ground running flawlessly either. It took time and tweaking to make it a good system that everyone agreed with or wouldn't complain about. We're not even at a week into implementation and we have a constant barrage of suggestions for them to parse and deal with.
What follows is what I think the intent might be for the system. It is not representative of what the devs might think. But it's my interpretation of the systems intent as it is currently implemented without knowledge of or for any plans the devs have for it.
I feel that the disconnection between @Deichtine's opinions, and interpretations of the system and the reality of the system, is them taking a selfish mindset towards it. They want the org credits to be indicative of overall activity within the faction. Not of what is displayed externally.
I feel the system as it is setup, is designed to be your faction showing dominance, whether culturally, industrially or militarily. Key word there showing. Demonstrating, public designs are required for that, because you are showing the superiority to the basin, you aren't keeping it cloistered within your clave.
I feel they have created a system where public shows of strength, whether industrially through production of designs and resources, culturally through production of books or theatre or militarily, through our standard conflict mechanics. That they created that rewards effort, and showing that effort.
And regarding the balance.
In one hour, Glomdoring managed to jump to 50 points, during a village revolt where they won both.
In SIX DAYS, Magnagora has managed to go from 27 points after that village revolt too 52.
I contributed 10 of those points. And am going to contribute 10 more next week.
If Glomdoring had done ANYTHING non-combat, say submitted a design or two, submitted a 5 weight book, submitted a theatre play. They would still be in the lead.
This indicates instead of being balanced towards Culture, to me it seems like it is FAR easier to earn points and win with Combat even without culture. Just requires more people and an ability to zerg. However also in my opinion, they probably aren't too far unbalanced. And we'll likely see whether that is the case, later this weekend.
Until then, it's impossible to get a feel for the balance, as we have not even gotten a full year cycle out of this system. Sooooo, in essence, wait, then judge.
Yeah, I think this is something we'll implement. I'll try to do so this weekend.
Thank you!
Remember everybody, the admin are trying to make the game fun for a wide variety of players. I don't think we really want everyone to be forced into one specific way of playing to cap their credits, variety is good.
I split between comm quests and honors quests and get done in anywhere from an hour to 90 minutes. Commquests are a quick couple of ticks when they're up, but the right quests can be quick credits too.
For anyone thinking of returning, waking, or just starting as well as everyone who is active. The changes are obviously proof that admin are listening to the playerbase. Thank you for making bashing/influencing a viable option. Still may not be the best which it shouldn't be the best anyway, but it should be viable to get most of your daily credits bashing if you prefer.
Yeah, no. Bashing and Influencing in this iteration isn't exactly viable for Demi+. We have no multiplier (which is fine) and yet are expected to grind thousands of actual points up. We can't really do comm quests anymore, we were already stealing away the resources as is, but now twice as much. Even when the GreatHunt was ongoing this kind of system wouldn't fly except for those elite few that can laugh off points like it's not a big deal. 1000 points isn't easy to get, much less doing even that in 1 hour of bashing/influencing. If we're shooting for 2 hours for -everyone- to be able to complete, then it is a pure punishment to be a Demi and we have no real reason to stay a Demi except 'cosmetic' which we are then further punished because everything takes twice as long as a Titan would. I'd only lose 450 to each vital and get everything done twice as fast!
To reiterate -
1) Comm quests aren't viable anymore
2) Bashing/influencing takes way longer than estimated time
3) Quests are a 'static' amount which again only hurts
4) Power quests definitely aren't viable, as it takes 3 runs to get even the 2nd tic
5) Can only gather 30 bard/scholar/pilgrims before capped
6) Revolts/Flares aren't daily, so can't really rely on those
Here's my suggestion, and it really should've been like this from the get go. Ignore the overly artifacted bashers and look at numbers provided by the average Demigod. Can we please just make the threshold something smaller, that is more achievable? I'd bid for every 250 points it can do a scaling tic, but I'd tolerate 500 points. Just because it is tolerated, doesn't mean we really want that. If the overly artifacted bashers can do all that in 45 minutes? POWER TO THEM, balance this for us though, the players who are trying to reach that 2 hour goal.
Suggestions - tl;dr
1) Make point threshold 250 for bashing/influencing
2) Undo the 40 comm quest back to 20, it was bearable
3) Instead make the 1-60 and 61-99 commquest to 12
4) Put village honour quests -BACK- on the commodity tic
a) This frees up resources again for commodity quests
5) Just make the power quests threshold every 30 point for 1 credit
a) This makes it a credit for each full round you complete
Also I ran testing last night with this new system in place. I made a newbie that hit level 25 before they even hit that first 1000 points. A 4x multiplier is good, but even that is a reach because they're not killing things nearly as fast to make it worth the while.
It takes me about an hour to hit 1,000 points bashing. That feels good for 5 credits but not for the subsequent diminishing returns. I preferred 20 comms for the comm quests too. I'll get sick of collecting 40 rockeaters.
In the past week I've typically been doing two villages for comms, about 500-1000 points of bashing, a 5 ish point quest that I wanted to do - not necessarily the most efficient, maybe a domoth and 100 points influencing. That was taking me around 2 hours and was nicely varied.
I'm not fussed about hitting 20cr every day but it'll take longer than 2 hours with the latest change.
Edit: I do like the tally for bashing and influencing so thanks Orael for adding that!
1) Drop Demis back to 20 comm quests (too much competition for comms at 40), and
2) Add a 1-point credit tick back at 100, 250, and 500 kills/influences. You still get a full credit tick at every 1000 points.
So if you hunt up 1000 points of kills, you would get 1+1+1+5 = 8 credits. That gives you back the 6 "easy" ones you can earn from hunting influencing, that can be used as a supplement from the full daily ticks. I think that would get us in a pretty good state, especially when there are more ticks from other things getting added in over time.
I think getting the daily tick from hunting/influencing is a great and highly needed change, but it did take out the best option for "finishing up" your daily 20 (getting to 15 is still relatively easy, but then you need to grind for a while for those last 5 points).
Edit: As a note I made it to 15cr today and have kind of stopped there. I'll probably try to snag a few more but I've been working on a few other things since the grind for those last 5 isn't appealing to me right now!
While I can agree to Xenthos' idea, can we please get your every-day run of the mill Demi to confirm this? Because currently, I hear more often than any that it is taking 1 hour to bash 1000 points as a normal, unartifacted Demi. If we used my suggestion of 250 points, that Demi would get 14 credits for that hour, and could supplement the other 6 from other sources to make it the 2 hour window that has been the goal since launch of this. If we use the 500 points, that Demi is getting 14 credits in 2 hours which still needs supplement and is past the window.
I went through Muud yesterday to test the counter, when all the way to the Necro's, it took an hour or so, and I sat at around 600 after that. I haven't collected any credits today, and honestly am not sure I will. As this has put a massive barrier of time in front of collecting these credits solo for me.
I'm a demi with a Gnome weapon but no vitals runes, so I had to take it slow and wait till mobs were in groups of 4 for Parasites then 2 for symbiotes then gave up when I was at the Necro's because I was having to take them 1 at a time or risk death. Also my corpses were starting to decay at that point.
Is there an up to date post or help file somewhere stating how different tasks are rewarded? Right now I'm a bit confused, since it seems that things have changed significantly since the original announce post.
Wow, I thought comm quests and bashing/influencing was separate incremental credits. Basically, we got nerfs to both comms and bashing.
Yeah, I was very confused when I only got two credits for my 1000 hunting points. As is, I see no reason to bother with hunting at all past the first 1000 points. Even at 40 comm turn-ins, commodity hunting is strictly better for me - I can just wait for the window to try for them (if risky in that I might miss them) rather than endlessly grinding and boring myself out of my mind. Takes waaaaaay longer than two hours now.
Made an up to date summary afaik (please point out any flaws!) I hope something like this can be put in the help files once the rewards system is finalized. Thank you to all the admin, staff and volunteers for your hard work!
--- SOLO ---
All characters will be able to earn up to 20 BOUND credits per RL day. Some activities will have a constant credit reward whilst others will change depending on how many times you perform it. The decrementing rewards will reward 5 credits for the first time, 4 the second time etc down to 1 credit per each time. These intervals are called ticks. (Items under a bullet point are part of the same point pool. Separate bullet points = separate pools.)
• Killing Mobs * 1 decrementing tick every 1000 points of mobs killed - Min = 5 cr for 1k pts; max = 20 cr for 10k pts - 5 cr for first 1k pts (5 cr so far) - 4 cr for first 2k pts (9 cr so far) - 3 cr for first 3k pts (12 cr so far) - 2 cr for first 4k pts (14 cr so far) - 1 cr for first 5k pts (15 cr so far) - 1 cr per tick for every +1k pts after first 5k * Lvl 61 to 99 = earn 1/2 the points * Lvl 100 or more = earn 1/4 the points
• Influencing Mobs * 1 decrementing tick every 1000 points of mobs influenced - Min = 5 cr for 1k pts; max = 20 cr for 10k pts - 5 cr for first 1k pts (5 cr so far) - 4 cr for first 2k pts (9 cr so far) - 3 cr for first 3k pts (12 cr so far) - 2 cr for first 4k pts (14 cr so far) - 1 cr for first 5k pts (15 cr so far) - 1 cr per tick for every +1k pts after first 5k * Lvl 61 to 99 = earn 1/2 the points * Lvl 100 or more = earn 1/4 the points
• Quests * New quest difficulty rating from 1-10 (easy to hard) * Higher quest rating = higher credit reward * Daily credits only awarded for quests rated 3-10; no credits for 1-2 * Min = 1 cr for 3 rating; max = 20 cr for 10 rating * Can only receive credits once per quest, per hour
• Village Commodity Quests * Lvl 1 to 60 = 1 tick every 10 quests - Min = 5 cr for 10 quests; max = 20 cr for 100 quests - 5 cr for first 10 quests (5 cr so far) - 4 cr for first 20 quests (9 cr so far) - 3 cr for first 30 quests (12 cr so far) - 2 cr for first 40 quests (14 cr so far) - 1 cr for first 50 quests (15 cr so far) - 1 cr for every 10 quests after first 50 * Lvl 61 to 99 = 1 tick every 20 quests - Min = 5 cr for 20 quests; max = 20 cr for 200 quests - 5 cr for first 20 quests (5 cr so far) - 4 cr for first 40 quests (9 cr so far) - 3 cr for first 60 quests (12 cr so far) - 2 cr for first 80 quests (14 cr so far) - 1 cr for first 100 quests (15 cr so far) - 1 cr for every 20 quests after first 100 * Lvl 100 or more = 1 tick every 40 quests * Can only receive credits once per village, per day
• Aetherhunting * Tiered system of rewards; progressively harder * Starts at 100 points, 250, then 500 and every 500 from then on * Only worth 1 credit per tier * Everyone on the ship benefits at once
• City/Commune Power Quests * Tiered system of rewards; progressively harder * Starts at 25 points, 50, then 100 and every 100 from then on * Only worth 1 credit per tier * Helping 15, then 30, then multiples of 30, scholars/bards/pilgrims earns 1 credit * Scholars/bards/pilgrims not counted separately
• Village Revolts * Participation credit for: - shattering an enemy - influencing a villager - spending 10 mins in the village * Can only receive credits once per weave * Helping with multiple villages in one weave only counts once
• Aether Flares * Participation credit for: - being locked in during a bombard - focusing the bubble for 10 mins * Can only receive credits once per weave * Helping with multiple flares in one weave only counts once
• Wild Nodes * Participation credit for: - uprooting/planting an enemy node - spending 10 mins on Astral during nodes
• Killing Supermobs * When the smob dies, anyone who hit it will get credit
• Domoths * A tick of credits for spending about 10-15 spawns of the domoth item on the bubble
--- ORG ---
Organizations can earn credits every game year based on their participation in events that they can use to award their members. Even if they lose an event, a city or commune gets points for participating (though winning an event would be weighted more). The city or commune with the most points will win 1000 credits, second place wins 900 credits, third wins 800 credits, and all other orgs receive 700 credits. (Items under a bullet point are part of the same point pool. Separate bullet points = separate pools.)
• Village Revolts * 10 points if on scoreboard * 25 points for winning * Winning multiple villages at the same time = multiple points; eg 2 wins = 50 points * Anything that will earn you daily credits in a village revolt will also count towards participation for your org
• Aether Flares * 10 points if on scoreboard * 25 points for winning * Winning multiple flares at the same time = multiple points; eg 2 wins = 50 points
• Wildnodes * 10 points if on scoreboard * 25 points for winning
• Library Contests * Max 50 points per IC year * Every 1 weight of a published book = 1 pt - eg, 1 book of 50 weight or 50 books of 1 weight would max out rewards
• Theater Contests * Max 50 points per IC year * Every 1 min duration of a play = 1 pt - plays must be 5 mins long or more to qualify - eg, 1 play of 50 mins or 10 plays of 5 mins would max out rewards
• Ikon Tournament * 15 points for an org member winning * 10 points for second place * 5 points for third place
• Public Designs * Max 50 points per IC year * 5 points per public design submitted by org members
In Changelog 1646, what did you mean by "Adjusted how villages count participation. Doing the same thing to earn daily credits will also earn village participation"
Are org points for public designs max 50 per IC year, or some other time period?
Do both theater plays and library books count towards the same 50 org point max per IC year, or are they in separate pools?
In Changelog 1646, what did you mean by "Adjusted how villages count participation. Doing the same thing to earn daily credits will also earn village participation"
Are org points for public designs max 50 per IC year, or some other time period?
Do both theater plays and library books count towards the same 50 org point max per IC year, or are they in separate pools?
1) The domoth daily credit rewards just award a tick of credits for spending ~10-15 spawns of the domoth item on the bubble 2) Yes, aetherhunting still uses tiers. I don't know that anyone has tried it since I attempted to fix it. 3) Anything that will earn you daily credits in a village revolt will also count towards participation for your org. 4) per IC Year 5) Separate, you can 50 points for books and plays.
Comments
That's what we've said from Day 1. We're not trying to 'reduce' any impact. We're not trying to 'focus' on anything. We're trying to make multiple viable approaches so multiple players and playing styles can take advantage. If you're trying to compare two systems, then compare the systems and stop trying to dictate our intentions, especially when they go against what we've stated.
What follows is what I think the intent might be for the system. It is not representative of what the devs might think. But it's my interpretation of the systems intent as it is currently implemented without knowledge of or for any plans the devs have for it.
I feel that the disconnection between @Deichtine's opinions, and interpretations of the system and the reality of the system, is them taking a selfish mindset towards it. They want the org credits to be indicative of overall activity within the faction. Not of what is displayed externally.
I feel the system as it is setup, is designed to be your faction showing dominance, whether culturally, industrially or militarily. Key word there showing. Demonstrating, public designs are required for that, because you are showing the superiority to the basin, you aren't keeping it cloistered within your clave.
I feel they have created a system where public shows of strength, whether industrially through production of designs and resources, culturally through production of books or theatre or militarily, through our standard conflict mechanics. That they created that rewards effort, and showing that effort.
And regarding the balance.
In one hour, Glomdoring managed to jump to 50 points, during a village revolt where they won both.
In SIX DAYS, Magnagora has managed to go from 27 points after that village revolt too 52.
I contributed 10 of those points. And am going to contribute 10 more next week.
If Glomdoring had done ANYTHING non-combat, say submitted a design or two, submitted a 5 weight book, submitted a theatre play. They would still be in the lead.
This indicates instead of being balanced towards Culture, to me it seems like it is FAR easier to earn points and win with Combat even without culture. Just requires more people and an ability to zerg. However also in my opinion, they probably aren't too far unbalanced. And we'll likely see whether that is the case, later this weekend.
Until then, it's impossible to get a feel for the balance, as we have not even gotten a full year cycle out of this system. Sooooo, in essence, wait, then judge.
Remember everybody, the admin are trying to make the game fun for a wide variety of players. I don't think we really want everyone to be forced into one specific way of playing to cap their credits, variety is good.
Accountability is necessary.
In the past week I've typically been doing two villages for comms, about 500-1000 points of bashing, a 5 ish point quest that I wanted to do - not necessarily the most efficient, maybe a domoth and 100 points influencing. That was taking me around 2 hours and was nicely varied.
I'm not fussed about hitting 20cr every day but it'll take longer than 2 hours with the latest change.
Edit: I do like the tally for bashing and influencing so thanks Orael for adding that!
I'm a demi with a Gnome weapon but no vitals runes, so I had to take it slow and wait till mobs were in groups of 4 for Parasites then 2 for symbiotes then gave up when I was at the Necro's because I was having to take them 1 at a time or risk death. Also my corpses were starting to decay at that point.
I hope something like this can be put in the help files once the rewards system is finalized.
Thank you to all the admin, staff and volunteers for your hard work!
--- SOLO ---
• Killing Mobs
* 1 decrementing tick every 1000 points of mobs killed
- Min = 5 cr for 1k pts; max = 20 cr for 10k pts
- 5 cr for first 1k pts (5 cr so far)
- 4 cr for first 2k pts (9 cr so far)
- 3 cr for first 3k pts (12 cr so far)
- 2 cr for first 4k pts (14 cr so far)
- 1 cr for first 5k pts (15 cr so far)
- 1 cr per tick for every +1k pts after first 5k
* Lvl 61 to 99 = earn 1/2 the points
* Lvl 100 or more = earn 1/4 the points
• Influencing Mobs
* 1 decrementing tick every 1000 points of mobs influenced
- Min = 5 cr for 1k pts; max = 20 cr for 10k pts
- 5 cr for first 1k pts (5 cr so far)
- 4 cr for first 2k pts (9 cr so far)
- 3 cr for first 3k pts (12 cr so far)
- 2 cr for first 4k pts (14 cr so far)
- 1 cr for first 5k pts (15 cr so far)
- 1 cr per tick for every +1k pts after first 5k
* Lvl 61 to 99 = earn 1/2 the points
* Lvl 100 or more = earn 1/4 the points
• Quests
* New quest difficulty rating from 1-10 (easy to hard)
* Higher quest rating = higher credit reward
* Daily credits only awarded for quests rated 3-10; no credits for 1-2
* Min = 1 cr for 3 rating; max = 20 cr for 10 rating
* Can only receive credits once per quest, per hour
• Village Commodity Quests
* Lvl 1 to 60 = 1 tick every 10 quests
- Min = 5 cr for 10 quests; max = 20 cr for 100 quests
- 5 cr for first 10 quests (5 cr so far)
- 4 cr for first 20 quests (9 cr so far)
- 3 cr for first 30 quests (12 cr so far)
- 2 cr for first 40 quests (14 cr so far)
- 1 cr for first 50 quests (15 cr so far)
- 1 cr for every 10 quests after first 50
* Lvl 61 to 99 = 1 tick every 20 quests
- Min = 5 cr for 20 quests; max = 20 cr for 200 quests
- 5 cr for first 20 quests (5 cr so far)
- 4 cr for first 40 quests (9 cr so far)
- 3 cr for first 60 quests (12 cr so far)
- 2 cr for first 80 quests (14 cr so far)
- 1 cr for first 100 quests (15 cr so far)
- 1 cr for every 20 quests after first 100
* Lvl 100 or more = 1 tick every 40 quests
* Can only receive credits once per village, per day
• Aetherhunting
* Tiered system of rewards; progressively harder
* Starts at 100 points, 250, then 500 and every 500 from then on
* Only worth 1 credit per tier
* Everyone on the ship benefits at once
• City/Commune Power Quests
* Tiered system of rewards; progressively harder
* Starts at 25 points, 50, then 100 and every 100 from then on
* Only worth 1 credit per tier
* Helping 15, then 30, then multiples of 30, scholars/bards/pilgrims earns 1 credit
* Scholars/bards/pilgrims not counted separately
• Village Revolts
* Participation credit for:
- shattering an enemy
- influencing a villager
- spending 10 mins in the village
* Can only receive credits once per weave
* Helping with multiple villages in one weave only counts once
• Aether Flares
* Participation credit for:
- being locked in during a bombard
- focusing the bubble for 10 mins
* Can only receive credits once per weave
* Helping with multiple flares in one weave only counts once
• Wild Nodes
* Participation credit for:
- uprooting/planting an enemy node
- spending 10 mins on Astral during nodes
• Killing Supermobs
* When the smob dies, anyone who hit it will get credit
• Domoths
* A tick of credits for spending about 10-15 spawns of the domoth item on the bubble
• Village Revolts
* 10 points if on scoreboard
* 25 points for winning
* Winning multiple villages at the same time = multiple points; eg 2 wins = 50 points
* Anything that will earn you daily credits in a village revolt will also count towards participation for your org
• Aether Flares
* 10 points if on scoreboard
* 25 points for winning
* Winning multiple flares at the same time = multiple points; eg 2 wins = 50 points
• Wildnodes
* 10 points if on scoreboard
* 25 points for winning
• Library Contests
* Max 50 points per IC year
* Every 1 weight of a published book = 1 pt
- eg, 1 book of 50 weight or 50 books of 1 weight would max out rewards
• Theater Contests
* Max 50 points per IC year
* Every 1 min duration of a play = 1 pt
- plays must be 5 mins long or more to qualify
- eg, 1 play of 50 mins or 10 plays of 5 mins would max out rewards
• Ikon Tournament
* 15 points for an org member winning
* 10 points for second place
* 5 points for third place
• Public Designs
* Max 50 points per IC year
* 5 points per public design submitted by org members
Updates since daily credits were introduced
@Orael, would you mind clarifying:
1) The domoth daily credit rewards just award a tick of credits for spending ~10-15 spawns of the domoth item on the bubble
2) Yes, aetherhunting still uses tiers. I don't know that anyone has tried it since I attempted to fix it.
3) Anything that will earn you daily credits in a village revolt will also count towards participation for your org.
4) per IC Year
5) Separate, you can 50 points for books and plays.
Lvl 61 to 99 = earn 1/2 the points
Lvl 100 or more = earn 1/4 the points