Time spent grinding for dailycredits is time not spent having meaningful engagement with the game.
The credit lends itself to PVP which is the meaningful engagement. Honestly killing rockeaters, chickens, cows, and trout taking them to a turn in isn't meaningful engagement either.
? If PVP is the sole candidate for "meaningful content" then the fabled lore of Lusternia has really gone to the gutter.
I can't very well immerse myself into the game if, despite all the depth of the fae politics, the philosophical nuances between Harmony and Chaos, the historical regret of New Celest and Project Cosmic Hope, etc. all just boils down to is "credits -> pvp". And that's a shame.
I believe I misunderstood your first comment. Were you saying the grinding is overshadowing true interaction? If so then I completely agree.
Just to note, we've had people get their entire 20 credits in roughly 2.5 hours just by bashing/influencing and supplementing with bards/scholars/pilgrims or power etc.
We've had others get their 20 credits pretty much entirely by bashing and topping off with a commquest in ~3 hours.
We're still looking at things and will likely tweak stuff. It does seem that commodity quests may be too easy, and other things may need a boost but we'll probably wait a little longer as people get more efficient at it.
Neither is the 2 hour goal. Would that adjustment be a nerf which will further the difficulty to obtain the 20 credits? Would a buff to other ways be considered? Also, are the players heavily artied toward bashing? Also, it takes me around 3 hours to finish currently post quest nerf.
Just to note, we've had people get their entire 20 credits in roughly 2.5 hours just by bashing/influencing and supplementing with bards/scholars/pilgrims or power etc.
We've had others get their 20 credits pretty much entirely by bashing and topping off with a commquest in ~3 hours.
We're still looking at things and will likely tweak stuff. It does seem that commodity quests may be too easy, and other things may need a boost but we'll probably wait a little longer as people get more efficient at it.
This kind of concerns me. 20 comm quests is still doable, but there are a limited number of comm critters in the game. Raising it too very much more is going to end up causing different problems. I'd rather see the other stuff boosted so people have less need to do the comm questing.
Some other tweaks would involve being able to get metals/fruits/veggies raw comms for tradein, and possibly not getting credit for the steel comm quest (as noted, the steel quest is just deleting other comms from the game, there is no real gathering of resources needed for that).
Basically I'd prefer tweaks to functionality & the competition vs. just bumping numbers up further.
Edit: And if one of those people you were talking about was Yendor on... Tuesday I think, there was a large astral hunt. The newbies with us got almost no kill points, and Yendor got quite a few, so I wouldn't really use that as a good example of time invested. Astral skews things a bit since it doesn't share credit, only the people with the high kill rate get the reward.
I was a lightly-artifacted character there (Level 1 artifacts, mostly) and I could finish my whole 20 dailycredits in under an hour. The 2.5 to 3 hours for 20 credits was for lowbies and midbies.
Furthermore, Imperian had credit-sharing mechanics so newbies could tag along behind high-levelled people and finish their own dailycredits much faster, as well.
I really don't think it's fair to compare Imperian's spawnwaves to Lusternia. We don't have that mechanic.
We also are operating off the instructions that it should take 2 hours for anyone to get their 20 credits. We're stuck there, with no wiggle room.
Anyway, my point in mentioning those other numbers (and it's more than just Yendor) is to point out that we're not really too far off the mark. We've asked for ideas (and have received some) to promote working together more. And I just mentioned, we're likely to tweak it and potentially add other routes.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying: Imperian has spawnwaves, so they tweaked their dailycredit generation around that in a way that even the lowbies could get their full 20 in 2 hours.
Gauging from what others have posted here (about how "the full 20 credits is a privilege" and that "newbies shouldn't expect to reach it"), Lusternia's approach is at odds with how Imperian has demonstrated it could be.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying: Imperian has spawnwaves, so they tweaked their dailycredit generation around that in a way that even the lowbies could get their full 20 in 2 hours.
Gauging from what others have posted here (about how "the full 20 credits is a privilege" and that "newbies shouldn't expect to reach it"), Lusternia's approach is at odds with how Imperian has demonstrated it could be.
That's never been something we've said. We've explicitly stated that the goal was -anyone- should be able to get 20 credits in 2 hours. That's why we have multipliers for anyone under lvl 100 when hunting or influencing, to counter them being unable to hunt/influence higher level things.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying: Imperian has spawnwaves, so they tweaked their dailycredit generation around that in a way that even the lowbies could get their full 20 in 2 hours.
Gauging from what others have posted here (about how "the full 20 credits is a privilege" and that "newbies shouldn't expect to reach it"), Lusternia's approach is at odds with how Imperian has demonstrated it could be.
That's never been something we've said. We've explicitly stated that the goal was -anyone- should be able to get 20 credits in 2 hours. That's why we have multipliers for anyone under lvl 100 when hunting or influencing, to counter them being unable to hunt/influence higher level things.
I don't think most newbies can gather up the comm quest things as fast as people like I can, either. Fast travel and good celerity really helps with that, as well as being able to survive cavefishers.
Newbies and lowbies can fairly easily expect to get 14/20 credits just on village comm quests, which is a newbie appropriate activity. Yes, there is a certain amount of scarcity, but the idea should not be "make comm quests less rewarding" but rather a) Increase resource availability, particularly the ones currently locked behind killing loyal mobs, b) make other stuff more rewarding to more experienced/artied players so they can engage with a part of the game they would rather enjoy instead of doing grunge work and taking the resources away from those who can't do higher stuff. That seems like it should be a goal of the system - start as a penniless newb, work villages and wanderers and powerquests until you have the exp/skills/arties to do something different, move on to that.
I still think this means adding more mechanics to the game that will reward credit ticks, rather than eternally tweaking the numbers on the cruft already here until people are sick of it and stop playing forever. But I understand we need at least a good basic place to work from at the start.
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
Newbies and lowbies can fairly easily expect to get 16/20 credits just on village comm quests, which is a newbie appropriate activity. Yes, there is a certain amount of scarcity, but the idea should not be "make comm quests less rewarding" but rather a) Increase resource availability, particularly the ones currently locked behind killing loyal mobs, b) make other stuff more rewarding to more experienced/artied players so they can engage with a part of the game they would rather enjoy instead of doing grunge work and taking the resources away from those who can't do higher stuff. That seems like it should be a goal of the system - start as a penniless newb, work villages and wanderers and powerquests until you have the exp/skills/arties to do something different, move on to that.
I still think this means adding more mechanics to the game that will reward credit ticks, rather than eternally tweaking the numbers on the cruft already here until people are sick of it and stop playing forever. But I understand we need at least a good basic place to work from at the start.
I still think this means adding more mechanics to the game that will reward credit ticks, rather than eternally tweaking the numbers on the cruft already here until people are sick of it and stop playing forever.
I can only blame myself for not realizing that this is not only the best solution but probably the one they're already working on (and I should give them more time to reach it instead of whining so much).
Newbies and lowbies can fairly easily expect to get 16/20 credits just on village comm quests, which is a newbie appropriate activity. Yes, there is a certain amount of scarcity, but the idea should not be "make comm quests less rewarding" but rather a) Increase resource availability, particularly the ones currently locked behind killing loyal mobs, b) make other stuff more rewarding to more experienced/artied players so they can engage with a part of the game they would rather enjoy instead of doing grunge work and taking the resources away from those who can't do higher stuff. That seems like it should be a goal of the system - start as a penniless newb, work villages and wanderers and powerquests until you have the exp/skills/arties to do something different, move on to that.
I still think this means adding more mechanics to the game that will reward credit ticks, rather than eternally tweaking the numbers on the cruft already here until people are sick of it and stop playing forever. But I understand we need at least a good basic place to work from at the start.
Both options are open at present. I'm not opposed to adding more routes and avenues to push people off commquests onto harder stuff. Believe it or not, I wasn't trying to be facetious or sarcastic when I said I'd get right on that.
At the same time, we have the ability to make certain things more worthwhile for newbies than they are for demigods. We could simply say that demigods need more commquests while newbies need less to get the same reward from it and achieve this same goal.
Would it be possible to consider adding org cartel submissions to the yearly credit rewards as well? I'd be totally fine with both a lower point value being awarded on approval and a smaller pool of points (Like 10 or 5 instead of the 50 max for public designs). I figure anything to encourage org submissions is a good thing, since they often don't see a ton of love and are a good source of cultural identity!
anything "more" with commquests only makes scarcity more of a thing. I'd suggest easing things for lowbies rather than making things harder. It is a somewhat finite resource you're dealing with.
anything "more" with commquests only makes scarcity more of a thing. I'd suggest easing things for lowbies rather than making things harder. It is a somewhat finite resource you're dealing with.
I think the suggestion was based on the fact demi-gods would have other avenues. In other words option A, B, and C would be the way a demi-god would prefer because obtaining 60 comms would push them to the more level appropriate route. The increase would be a deterant when there are other more rewarding or easier methods.
Just to note, we've had people get their entire 20 credits in roughly 2.5 hours just by bashing/influencing and supplementing with bards/scholars/pilgrims or power etc.
We've had others get their 20 credits pretty much entirely by bashing and topping off with a commquest in ~3 hours.
We're still looking at things and will likely tweak stuff. It does seem that commodity quests may be too easy, and other things may need a boost but we'll probably wait a little longer as people get more efficient at it.
Bards scholars and comm quests are all about the same time to complete for the most part. If your lowering the comm quest rewards because they are too easy you'd probally want to lower the bards and scholars to the same level.
Bashing and influencing could do with a buff. The only people I've seen be able to cap mostly through bashing are heavily artifacted players on big astral bashes.
You're actually not supposed to be able to get your 20 just by hunting or influencing, by design. What you're supposed to do is akin to what I posted above; get your ticks in a number of different ways. And yes, you are pretty much required to use questing or commquesting as one of those ways if you don't have regular access to domoths (this was brought up during testing, and is the point of the system). The biggest change is that hunting and influencing is no longer a raw "kill x number of things" but instead "x points worth of things" so it is considerably faster than it was, making it at least viable to use as a finishing option. But it is still going to be slower than other things if you are trying to do it exclusively.
To me, once comm-questing will give 2 or 1 credit for doing it, it's time to move on to one of the other routes for the final bits. So I do 3 or 4 sets of village comm quests and then whatever I feel like for the rest of it.
The point is why? Wasn't this supposed to be the Imperian system which is based on bashing? Who says you shouldn't be able to bash/influence? I won't speak for everyone, but I want to do three in Lusty which is PvP, bash, and RP. Daily credits is not opitional, so the game is forcing me to do stuff I find subpar and tedious. As a player who spends time and money, I dislike this system. Why is a system forcing me to have "fun" the way it sees fit? This is my opinion, but I control the amount of time/money I spend in Lusternia. Now, I have voiced my concerns. I will let the admins decide if there is enough people that feel like me to make a change.
The way I understand it after talking to the admin is that its not ment to be a copy of the Imperian system. Its sort of just inspired by Imperian but customised for Lusternia.
Its a conscious choice that bashing and conflict is less meaningful to credit generation in Lusternia than it is in Imperian.
The differing rate of conflict events, but that is not taking into account the statement that there is more conflict stuff already being worked on (and I know I am waiting for more info on that!).
I'm pretty pleased by this new daily credits thing. Just playing casually, I'm still getting a handful of credits for doing things I'd normally be doing (power quests, influencing and hunting, domoths)
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
It would be a lot better if hunting/influencing had a compromise of the two versions it had. If it had its own diminishing return scaling starting at 5 and continued to use the greathunt scoring. The hyper-arti people would be able to get their stuff in the 1-1.5 hour range and it would alleviate some of the comm quest resources for those that aren't so inclined to bash/influence.
Because right now we have everyone, newb to top-tier trying to round up the same 20 cows, 10 sheep, and 20 rockeaters, scholars/bards/pilgrims.
With the multiplier at lower levels, it is almost as if you want everyone to take 2 hours, not that be the stabdard for newer players and someone dripping artefacts could be done in under an hour.
I think that just leads to people seeing no meaningful progression.
"Brilliant I have gone from level 99 to 100, now i have to bash/influence for double the time for those credits"
With the multiplier at lower levels, it is almost as if you want everyone to take 2 hours, not that be the stabdard for newer players and someone dripping artefacts could be done in under an hour.
I think that just leads to people seeing no meaningful progression.
"Brilliant I have gone from level 99 to 100, now i have to bash/influence for double the time for those credits"
..I mean that's exactly right, we want everybody to have to take 2 hours.
We just used the greathunt tiers for our dividers, assuming that is because we consider those lvl 99 and below to be at a disadvantage over demigods. I don't know if that's the case (I'd wager it's not by much) but we're less concerned with the lvl 99 people and more so with the lvl 70 or the lvl 40 people being able to get their credits, and since they're unable to hunt/inflence higher level, worth-more-points mobs, we add the multiplier so that they can still achieve that in the same time frame.
@Orael Thank you for your hard work! I am loving the daily credit system so far. Is it possible to get some sort of counter we can look at to tell how close we are to getting the next reward from Bashing or Influencing? Would be nice to know if I hunting for a couple more minutes will get me a credit, or if it is far away, and I should just be healthy and go to bed and start again tomorrow.
Conflict is supposed to be meaningful - every conflict mechanic we have has ways of generating daily credits. I'm not sure where you get that from.
Oh just in comparison to Imperian and the conversations over domoths and other conflict events. In Imperian you can cap your daily credits fully through conflict events which isn't really possible here. Although yea it'd be quicker to do a mix in Imperian for sure. Part of it is only getting 1 tick for domoths for example. In Imperian you can get 2 for three ticks from much shorter conflict event (10-20mins) that happen much more often with additional daily rewards for more generic conflict.
Same thing for bashing again. In Imperian you can bash up your daily rounds much much much quicker than Lustys.
Add in the Org points system vs Imperians one. Lusternia has taken out the most frequent conflict event and discounted it from scoring orgpoints Vs Imperians where there you can earn org points from more things like their domoth equivalents and raids and such.
You've deliberately reduced the impact of conflict events in org scoring by discounting conflict events from it. Not saying its a bad thing. You've reduced conflicts group points and personal earning potential but you've buffed up and focused the points system on writing, designs and quests instead.
Had a bit of a point about the designs and org points.
Only public designs are counting so far the files say. This is a bit of a discouragement as often designers want to put their stuff in the org specific cartels so that anyone in their org friends can make it but its restricted to non org members.
The org cartels are public to that org as everyone in that org is automatically included in them.
Its a big difference between private clan cartels and org ones.
I feel that org cartel designs should count to org points.
It would be nice if org-cartel private designs also gave some points. I'd be fine if they gave a little less than a full public design, but as you say they are public to that entire organization. Pushing org-specific stuff into the common space doesn't seem like it's the best of ideas, but if you have something that is at all generic the higher points for that would encourage making it a fully public work. Gives you space to decide on what you are trying to accomplish while still helping your org out.
Conflict is supposed to be meaningful - every conflict mechanic we have has ways of generating daily credits. I'm not sure where you get that from.
Oh just in comparison to Imperian and the conversations over domoths and other conflict events. In Imperian you can cap your daily credits fully through conflict events which isn't really possible here. Although yea it'd be quicker to do a mix in Imperian for sure. Part of it is only getting 1 tick for domoths for example. In Imperian you can get 2 for three ticks from much shorter conflict event (10-20mins) that happen much more often with additional daily rewards for more generic conflict.
Same thing for bashing again. In Imperian you can bash up your daily rounds much much much quicker than Lustys.
Add in the Org points system vs Imperians one. Lusternia has taken out the most frequent conflict event and discounted it from scoring orgpoints Vs Imperians where there you can earn org points from more things like their domoth equivalents and raids and such.
You've deliberately reduced the impact of conflict events in org scoring by discounting conflict events from it. Not saying its a bad thing. You've reduced conflicts group points and personal earning potential but you've buffed up and focused the points system on writing, designs and quests instead.
This kind of statement and attitude is what makes implementing these things so incredibly frustrating. We haven't 'deliberately' reduced or buffed anything. We've 'deliberately' tried to make a system where you being the king of culture OR the king of combat isn't enough for you to win the yearly competition. The points are not 'focused' on writing or designs. It's really disingenuous to continue this line of reasoning despite being continually told the opposite.
You may think that the way it's implemented will lead to that situation, but to sit here and say that we're 'deliberately' making it that way, despite telling you several times differently, is disingenuous and unfair.
*Edit - It's really difficult to want to engage and be transparent when the engagement and transparency is often ignored, misrepresented, or not taken in good faith because we don't agree with you that something is going to work out how you think it is.
Its just a straight comparison between two systems. The Lusternia one and the Imperian one. Sorry if you don't like the word deliberately but I wasn't really sure how else to word it. There's dramatic changes to how the Lusternian one has been implemented vs the Imperian one and that's fine. It's fine if you want the systems to be quite different.
As I understand it you've made a choice to make questing, writing and designing much more important in the Lusternia system than the Imperian system. Again I'm not saying this is a bad thing. If I'm wrong and this isn't a choice but an accident then again sorry for misunderstanding how it was explained on discord and on this forum.
Comments
Neither is the 2 hour goal. Would that adjustment be a nerf which will further the difficulty to obtain the 20 credits? Would a buff to other ways be considered? Also, are the players heavily artied toward bashing? Also, it takes me around 3 hours to finish currently post quest nerf.
I was a lightly-artifacted character there (Level 1 artifacts, mostly) and I could finish my whole 20 dailycredits in under an hour. The 2.5 to 3 hours for 20 credits was for lowbies and midbies.
Furthermore, Imperian had credit-sharing mechanics so newbies could tag along behind high-levelled people and finish their own dailycredits much faster, as well.
PS for those curious:
redwood cottons (5)
shulgaran (4)
cinua (3)
ironwood (2)
blighted hollow (1)
three gorgons (3)
undead troll (1)
mob kill (1)
= 20
Accountability is necessary.
We also are operating off the instructions that it should take 2 hours for anyone to get their 20 credits. We're stuck there, with no wiggle room.
Anyway, my point in mentioning those other numbers (and it's more than just Yendor) is to point out that we're not really too far off the mark. We've asked for ideas (and have received some) to promote working together more. And I just mentioned, we're likely to tweak it and potentially add other routes.
Gauging from what others have posted here (about how "the full 20 credits is a privilege" and that "newbies shouldn't expect to reach it"), Lusternia's approach is at odds with how Imperian has demonstrated it could be.
Accountability is necessary.
Both options are open at present. I'm not opposed to adding more routes and avenues to push people off commquests onto harder stuff. Believe it or not, I wasn't trying to be facetious or sarcastic when I said I'd get right on that.
At the same time, we have the ability to make certain things more worthwhile for newbies than they are for demigods. We could simply say that demigods need more commquests while newbies need less to get the same reward from it and achieve this same goal.
Bards scholars and comm quests are all about the same time to complete for the most part. If your lowering the comm quest rewards because they are too easy you'd probally want to lower the bards and scholars to the same level.
Bashing and influencing could do with a buff. The only people I've seen be able to cap mostly through bashing are heavily artifacted players on big astral bashes.
The way I understand it after talking to the admin is that its not ment to be a copy of the Imperian system. Its sort of just inspired by Imperian but customised for Lusternia.
Its a conscious choice that bashing and conflict is less meaningful to credit generation in Lusternia than it is in Imperian.
..I mean that's exactly right, we want everybody to have to take 2 hours.
We just used the greathunt tiers for our dividers, assuming that is because we consider those lvl 99 and below to be at a disadvantage over demigods. I don't know if that's the case (I'd wager it's not by much) but we're less concerned with the lvl 99 people and more so with the lvl 70 or the lvl 40 people being able to get their credits, and since they're unable to hunt/inflence higher level, worth-more-points mobs, we add the multiplier so that they can still achieve that in the same time frame.
Oh just in comparison to Imperian and the conversations over domoths and other conflict events. In Imperian you can cap your daily credits fully through conflict events which isn't really possible here. Although yea it'd be quicker to do a mix in Imperian for sure. Part of it is only getting 1 tick for domoths for example. In Imperian you can get 2 for three ticks from much shorter conflict event (10-20mins) that happen much more often with additional daily rewards for more generic conflict.
Same thing for bashing again. In Imperian you can bash up your daily rounds much much much quicker than Lustys.
Add in the Org points system vs Imperians one. Lusternia has taken out the most frequent conflict event and discounted it from scoring orgpoints Vs Imperians where there you can earn org points from more things like their domoth equivalents and raids and such.
You've deliberately reduced the impact of conflict events in org scoring by discounting conflict events from it. Not saying its a bad thing. You've reduced conflicts group points and personal earning potential but you've buffed up and focused the points system on writing, designs and quests instead.
Only public designs are counting so far the files say. This is a bit of a discouragement as often designers want to put their stuff in the org specific cartels so that anyone in their org friends can make it but its restricted to non org members.
The org cartels are public to that org as everyone in that org is automatically included in them.
Its a big difference between private clan cartels and org ones.
I feel that org cartel designs should count to org points.
This kind of statement and attitude is what makes implementing these things so incredibly frustrating. We haven't 'deliberately' reduced or buffed anything. We've 'deliberately' tried to make a system where you being the king of culture OR the king of combat isn't enough for you to win the yearly competition. The points are not 'focused' on writing or designs. It's really disingenuous to continue this line of reasoning despite being continually told the opposite.
You may think that the way it's implemented will lead to that situation, but to sit here and say that we're 'deliberately' making it that way, despite telling you several times differently, is disingenuous and unfair.
*Edit - It's really difficult to want to engage and be transparent when the engagement and transparency is often ignored, misrepresented, or not taken in good faith because we don't agree with you that something is going to work out how you think it is.
As I understand it you've made a choice to make questing, writing and designing much more important in the Lusternia system than the Imperian system. Again I'm not saying this is a bad thing. If I'm wrong and this isn't a choice but an accident then again sorry for misunderstanding how it was explained on discord and on this forum.