For what it is worth, I believe "I win with Team Avatar" to be much more non-ambiguous than "I am not a member of the Fire Nation". For example, if Iroh is in the game I can totally see him winning with Team Avatar, but if truth-checked with the Fire Nation statement it would come back as false because he technically is part of the Fire Nation, even if he isn't mafia in this game.
This is going to make me sound like an idiot. When faced with something that makes little to no sense, I tend to assume that I'm the one who is missing something. Right now, I'm staring at Silvanus' statement and having absolutely no idea how it could work that way. If I'm understanding correctly, he's saying that he can beat it without using a power?
Maybe I'm missing something on the test statements, but here's how it looks:
If the statement is "I win with Team Avatar"
Town: True Scum: False Third Party: False
If the statement is "I am not a member of the Fire Nation"
Town: True Scum: False Third Party: Complicated. If Selenity interprets that to mean the Fire Nation as a scum team, then it's true. If it means any character that is from the Fire Nation in the setting regardless of alignment, then it could peg them as true even if they lacked scum alignment.
So the results differ for third parties. But it seems like it makes assessing them less accurate, which makes me think that it's not actually better. And on the town/scum axis, it looks like it's just flipping who gets true and who gets false. Different phrasing, same end result. Or is there some significance there that I'm missing?
If the statement is "I do not have a Night Kill Ability or any anti-town ability."
Then I think alignment stops mattering, because it can't distinguish a vigilante from a scum killer. Anti-town ability seems like the same as stating that they aren't a scum group, because classing powers as town or anti-town based on anything other than the player's role seems like a massive and somewhat arbitrary judgment call.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
BTW I don't understand Silvanus's explination either. "I win with town" is about as unambiguous as it can get in a mafia game, as it specifically excludes mafia flavor such as "fire nation", so I'm uncertain how this leaves any opening to circumvent the lie detection.
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
I don't understand how you think I win with team avatar cancels out third party. If team avatar wins and third party is alive, they win.
Not all third parties are survivors. Also, it's a separate win condition. They win by surviving until the end of the game, or by predicting enough lynches, or by being the only one left alive. Some of those can happen at the same time as Team Avatar winning, others can't. Most of the possible third party win conditions that can coexist with an avatar win can also coexist with a scum win.
So I guess that's really another judgment call on Selenity's part. Does being able to win with Team Avatar make it a true statement, or is it a lie because they do not inherently or only win with Team Avatar?
Therein lies the problem with lie detectors, I guess. Humans tend to be a little bit ambiguous when they speak, so there's always room for interpretation.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
We've moved in the direction of what I wanted to bring up, so I'm going to touch on it now instead of waiting til tomorrow. As we're moving towards something that's entirely speculation to something else that has a little bit of actual evidence, first of all,
Unvote Portius (Sorry Selenity!)
Silvanus has at this point pretty much admitted to being a third party player, while Shaddus implied it with the way he posted for the lie-detector on day one. I don't want to out roles without a good reason, so I'm not going to call them on particulars. Based on how they're signalling and their likely roles based on that, I am willing to skeptically accept their agenda isn't anti-town, but I'd like to see some compelling evidence of a specifically pro-town agenda or a reason as to why they're best left alone in spite of not strictly being town. Of the two, I am far more comfortable with Silvanus's involvement up to this point, so I will
Vote Shaddus
Again, with the understanding that I am hoping for discussion on this. I will unvote if we get more than half-way to a lynch without discussion, unless it is a lack of Shaddus discussing.
Yeah the more Silvanus talks the more confused I get. Are you saying you're a 3p that can win with town? I don't really see another way to interpret what you said
The only third party that wins with town is a survivor, and even then I think it's a stretch to say they win with the town. In spite of the town, maybe. Cults, jesters, etc all win at the expense of town.
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
Yeah the more Silvanus talks the more confused I get. Are you saying you're a 3p that can win with town? I don't really see another way to interpret what you said
He's saying that it's possible that there is a person who can win with the mafia or the town, IE a survivor.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
I'm confused as to what Portius has done to attract attention, and what exactly we are expecting to get out of him other than a claim.
His play style this game is consistent with how he always plays. He talks when he has something specific to say.
Well, I'll own up to the fact that I hadn't noticed that @Portius had posted at all this dayphase prior to his response to my & Silvanus's vote. For me, I was interested in pushing a quieter person who happened to fit in the middle of the pack re: yesterday's discussion to see their reaction/get them to post the "I win with Team Avatar" thing. (I actually missed that Portius had posted that already. >_>)
Yeah the more Silvanus talks the more confused I get. Are you saying you're a 3p that can win with town? I don't really see another way to interpret what you said
That said, I'm feeling the same way you, Fyler, and Portius are re: @Silvanus. It sounds to me like Silvanus thinks the downside of lie detection is it can't account for every single possible outcome no matter what post is written, or question is answered.
Here's the thing: lie-detection isn't supposed to be a concrete investigative power. It's more like a series of absolutes you take into account to unravel the rest of the mafia game mystery. If Silvanus is upset that we're relying on a limited investigative tool, it's because the tool is limited by design.
Take it from someone who has played a lie detector who accidentally got a townie killed because a townie told a lie they didn't realize it was a lie: late game, that information was still useful, and it helped us catch a scum red-handed. Lie detection is good, but don't expect it to always be crystal clear for town. At least analyzing "I win with Team Avatar" is more cut-and-dry than most posts.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Wow, where did all these crickets and tumbleweeds come from? Also hope people had fun on Mother's Day
Pretty sure it came from Mother's Day. Back to your regularly scheduled ATLA Mafia!
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
So @Falaeron should probably truth check someone truthwise before we run out of time. Looks like @Portius and @Silvanus are our FoS dujour.
I'm gonna vote Silvanus because I'd like him to reply to the posts he's prompted.
(I also think the discussion re: Day 1 "no lynch" vs "lynch" is tired, everyone has their stance on that, and no one will be convinced one side is right and one side is wrong, so I suggest that line of conversation not be the focus today. If that's the reason you think someone is mafia feel free to say so, but it may not be the majority opinion.)
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I don't know what to make of Silvanus. It's possible he is hinting at being third party because he is legitimately one and wants to cover for himself in advance of that being found out. It's also possible that he's mafia and is using third party as a cover story. Honestly, the two don't make a great deal of difference to me - I don't see third party as being any the more trustworthy/worth keeping around.
I don't know what to make of Silvanus. It's possible he is hinting at being third party because he is legitimately one and wants to cover for himself in advance of that being found out. It's also possible that he's mafia and is using third party as a cover story. Honestly, the two don't make a great deal of difference to me - I don't see third party as being any the more trustworthy/worth keeping around.
Would like to hear more from Shaddus as well.
What would you like to hear?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Sorry, I haven't paid as much attention to the thread as I should have been. Technically, I'm a third person person that wins with Team Avatar. I have no night or day kills.
Falmiis is free to truth check that if he feels up to it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm a survivor for the first two days, Team Avatar the days after. Don't ask me, I didn't write the role
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Well, you're welcome to truth check either of my above posts if you don't believe me.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Hm. Well it makes sense flavorwise, just not mechanics wise. I'd say I would want to know if only as an indicator of what to expect this game re: fluff impacting mechanics.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
It does kind of fit flavor wise with the character he's been hinting at. Also fits with what he was trying to do with that "I will win with Team Avatar." last day phase so he's being consistent at least.
Mechanically though that's just really weird unless the game actually has a chance to end in one night which I really doubt. Maybe it's intended as a handicap where he needs to avoid investigations and lie detectors at first?
Comments
His play style this game is consistent with how he always plays. He talks when he has something specific to say.
Maybe I'm missing something on the test statements, but here's how it looks:
If the statement is "I win with Team Avatar"
Town: True
Scum: False
Third Party: False
If the statement is "I am not a member of the Fire Nation"
Town: True
Scum: False
Third Party: Complicated. If Selenity interprets that to mean the Fire Nation as a scum team, then it's true. If it means any character that is from the Fire Nation in the setting regardless of alignment, then it could peg them as true even if they lacked scum alignment.
So the results differ for third parties. But it seems like it makes assessing them less accurate, which makes me think that it's not actually better. And on the town/scum axis, it looks like it's just flipping who gets true and who gets false. Different phrasing, same end result. Or is there some significance there that I'm missing?
If the statement is "I do not have a Night Kill Ability or any anti-town ability."
Then I think alignment stops mattering, because it can't distinguish a vigilante from a scum killer. Anti-town ability seems like the same as stating that they aren't a scum group, because classing powers as town or anti-town based on anything other than the player's role seems like a massive and somewhat arbitrary judgment call.
So I guess that's really another judgment call on Selenity's part. Does being able to win with Team Avatar make it a true statement, or is it a lie because they do not inherently or only win with Team Avatar?
Therein lies the problem with lie detectors, I guess. Humans tend to be a little bit ambiguous when they speak, so there's always room for interpretation.
Portius - Silvanus, Zitto (2)
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch!
Unvote Portius (Sorry Selenity!)
Silvanus has at this point pretty much admitted to being a third party player, while Shaddus implied it with the way he posted for the lie-detector on day one. I don't want to out roles without a good reason, so I'm not going to call them on particulars. Based on how they're signalling and their likely roles based on that, I am willing to skeptically accept their agenda isn't anti-town, but I'd like to see some compelling evidence of a specifically pro-town agenda or a reason as to why they're best left alone in spite of not strictly being town. Of the two, I am far more comfortable with Silvanus's involvement up to this point, so I will
Vote Shaddus
Again, with the understanding that I am hoping for discussion on this. I will unvote if we get more than half-way to a lynch without discussion, unless it is a lack of Shaddus discussing.
That said, I'm feeling the same way you, Fyler, and Portius are re: @Silvanus. It sounds to me like Silvanus thinks the downside of lie detection is it can't account for every single possible outcome no matter what post is written, or question is answered.
Here's the thing: lie-detection isn't supposed to be a concrete investigative power. It's more like a series of absolutes you take into account to unravel the rest of the mafia game mystery. If Silvanus is upset that we're relying on a limited investigative tool, it's because the tool is limited by design.
Take it from someone who has played a lie detector who accidentally got a townie killed because a townie told a lie they didn't realize it was a lie: late game, that information was still useful, and it helped us catch a scum red-handed. Lie detection is good, but don't expect it to always be crystal clear for town. At least analyzing "I win with Team Avatar" is more cut-and-dry than most posts.
I'm gonna vote Silvanus because I'd like him to reply to the posts he's prompted.
(I also think the discussion re: Day 1 "no lynch" vs "lynch" is tired, everyone has their stance on that, and no one will be convinced one side is right and one side is wrong, so I suggest that line of conversation not be the focus today. If that's the reason you think someone is mafia feel free to say so, but it may not be the majority opinion.)
Would like to hear more from Shaddus as well.
Falmiis is free to truth check that if he feels up to it.
Mechanically though that's just really weird unless the game actually has a chance to end in one night which I really doubt. Maybe it's intended as a handicap where he needs to avoid investigations and lie detectors at first?