Alliances

Kethaera

Eodh said:

@Kethaera But, either way, the result would have been the same. @Celina 's solution was just ripping the band aid out, rather than pulling at it inch by painful inch.

...No, that's not true. Actually, we had an entire conversation today about all the other possibilities we could try. It was nice.

Eodh

You're probably not the sole reason for the current debacle, but you're the one posting about it the most here, so naturally you attract all the bullets. 

Kethaera

Eodh said:

You're probably not the sole reason for the current debacle, but you're the one posting about it the most here, so naturally you attract all the bullets. 

For arguing here- yes. But what I'm talking about has been happening for months.

Pejat

Sustainable is no fun. Dynamic and shifting alliances are where it's at. I don't want to be stuck with the North v South, pro-Kephera v pro-Illithoid divide forever.

Let the four cities team up and force Serenwilde-Glomdoring to be friends. >.>

Eodh

There's a mechanic for that (although unchanged since Gaudiguch and Hallifax came into the fray). Hello, Xion Initiative and hai'Gloh Zemordia.

Kethaera

Eodh said:

There's a mechanic for that (although unchanged since Gaudiguch and Hallifax came into the fray). Hello, Xion Initiative and hai'Gloh Zemordia.

Sigh... I wanted/want this for reasons. Mostly just because no one else seems to, and I missed that conflict completely. C'mon, Serenwilde! For nature!

Salome

Kethaera said:

Eodh said:

There's a mechanic for that (although unchanged since Gaudiguch and Hallifax came into the fray). Hello, Xion Initiative and hai'Gloh Zemordia.

Sigh... I wanted/want this for reasons. Mostly just because no one else seems to, and I missed that conflict completely. C'mon, Serenwilde! For nature!

I want it too. But Serenwilde is interesting to work with.

Silvanus

If by interesting, you mean weak and pathetic, I agree.

Eodh

I don't know how well it would work now, since there are 4 cities with 2 communes. In the mean time, we can just walk down memory lane and see how it all went down.

Events 149, 156, 157 detail the middle-to-end (I can't be assed to find the beginning, when Raziela was bound).

Eliron

Stratas said:

Silvanus said:

Hi. I like killing people. Glomdoring still clearly hasn't figured it out yet and lost its will to hunt. Will be a mercenary for you.

The Harbingers want you to start bardkilling for us. Just... let me figure out who the enemies are again.

Mm-hmm. You're in a guild whose Champion has actively and publicly called for a replacement. All that's between you and the mechanical ability to contest are some basic advancement tasks (or doing whatever you want for the guild and getting favoured, we don't actually object to people who haven't done the advancement contesting, especially not for Dirgesinger).

Doing so, by the way, would put you in the Shadow Court, where you would get to vote on things like alliances and who were are trying to murderstab at any given time. It would also give your opinion automatic weight with some of the original supporters of the current alliances.

These problems, they have solutions.

Pejat

Eodh said:

There's a mechanic for that (although unchanged since Gaudiguch and Hallifax came into the fray). Hello, Xion Initiative and hai'Gloh Zemordia.

Obviously, that mechanic should be reserved for when Celest and Mag agree. A new mechanic should be built for when Hallifax and Gaudiguch agree.

Eodh

Pejat said:

Eodh said:

There's a mechanic for that (although unchanged since Gaudiguch and Hallifax came into the fray). Hello, Xion Initiative and hai'Gloh Zemordia.

Obviously, that mechanic should be reserved for when Celest and Mag agree. A new mechanic should be built for when Hallifax and Gaudiguch agree.

Maybe. After all, Maeve made HG using the corpse of a Supernal and a Demon Lord, so it follows that may only affect them. But the ritual is literally the Binding of the Cosmos (cosmic), so it should also affect all the elemental/cosmic planes reachable through Faethorn. Who knows!

P.S. I always found Maeve to be a very bat sh*t insane character. "Oh no, the cities are trying to remove the binding that I put on Raziela. The binding was supposed to stop Raziela from converting fae. Never mind that no one has converted a fae through her in literal decades! WE MUST DEFEND OURSELVES FROM THE CITIES WHO ARE TRYING TO REMOVE WHAT WE PUT ON HERRR!!!!"

I mean, what.

(gbtg)

Arcanis

Enyalida said:

I'm going to go back a page and address some... interesting things that were said on that page.

Delsea said:

Eodh said:

The problem with Glomdoring trying to cozy up to Celest and Hallifax is that Serenwilde is trying to do that, too, but they (the two communes) don't want to cozy up with each other. It won't work well. One of you has to go, or else be stuck in diplomatic limbo (as is already happening).

You're certainly free to support an alliance with Celest and Hallifax, @Kethaera, but you have to take this into account, that not only do you have to choose to be with Celest and Hallifax, you also have to make them choose you over Serenwilde.

This is sounding more and more like relationship advice. What in the world.

Frankly I'm surprised Serenwilde isn't angrier about it. Our ALLIES are protecting and assisting their enemies. And we're letting them do it. Serenwilde is the current basin doormat. I'd be thrilled to see some old fierceness rise up and demand things change or we'll go elsewhere....but then apparently the commune is torn anyway. Some want to be friends with Glom. Some are happy as it is. Some want to break off with our allies and pursue Mag/Gaudi. In the mean time we do nothing and get left behind. What the hell politics. You're drunk. Go home.

I get where this perception of Serenwilde lying down and taking it comes from, but it's not correct. You might not realize it, but there IS and was a lot of anger, and a big firestorm, it just wasn't a public firestorm, because that's tacky. I (and to a greater degree my character) was/is totally furious about the way things have been turning out, partially because -Like @Celina- I've been warning people that this was coming for a long long time and have been ignored. 

I have never understood what the actual alternative scenario to 'Lying down and taking it' is, honestly? Standing up and shouting at people? "Screw the alliances, we're just gonna fight Glomdoring all on our own because they ~~disrespected us~~, let the raids begin"? Like, what is it that people want here? 

Thing is, like in the Glom leadership evidently, there are people who want to engage the alliance/politics problem and come out with solutions and those who... don't. There are votes and discussions after which there is a consensus, but rogue elements who decide that their will overrides consensus and so on. I am a little torn on what the best solutions are. because while I understand the need to have an enemy you can engage in active war with, I hate being dragged into stupid fighting for the sake of fighting. 

Which brings me to the second quote:

Arcanis said:

And hey, we gave Seren the option to come to our side numerous times, but as is common with Serenwilde: Shit dont get done.

This is... hilarious. No, Serenwilde isn't allied with Magnagora because 'Shit don't get done'. It's because no one wants to be allied with Magnagora, because of people like you. More specifically: You, the non-general, I-mean-that-one-person-called-Arcanis you (and others like you in Magnagora). There were some great times back during IronHart, and I (and others) respect  some Magnagoran players IC as a result. Some of those players come back in every once and a while. Ditching Hallifax and Celest for Magnagora and Gaudiguch is just a bad move for a variety of reasons. 

Hold up. I havent touched seren in ages, and the only time i did was once in direct retribution to acts done by serenwilde. Just because some of you over there cant tell the difference between your org and celest, and for some strange reason cant tell a sleight to celest having no connotation to seren, then that is on seren players. Dont try and take that bullshit excuse of 'we dont like arcanis' as reason for the heavy apathy always shown from seren. It also would title you all as extremely child minded to try and govern alliances by 'mmmm i dont like whatshisface over there, so no'. I could eaaaasily have stomped seren into the ground, and from time to time am tempted to because of their stupid actions, but i have refrained from doing so. So once again, dont try and use that bullshit of an excuse to conceal your org inefficiency to make simple decisions. Thank you


Edit: besides, the only useful people in Seren are Avurekhos, Rivius and maybe Ryboi, other than that, you guys are basically digging your own grave at this point.

Kiradawea

What I gather from this is that every org need at least 100 players who play regularly, thereby ensuring that there is always someone to fight. Time to fire up the jungle telegraph.

Siam

Tea time dictates alliances, you guys.

Kethaera

Siam said:

Tea time dictates alliances, you guys.

Hey, @Siam. When's the last time you've done anything useful for Glom? Do you count the insulting posts you write on Court? The time spent standing around the Ravenwood being questionably logged in?

Part of what I find extremely irritating about this tea time nonsense is that from my perspective, -I- was the one largely pushing for and acting on the idea of an alliance with HalliCelest. And I didn't do so by roleplaying in manses- I fought with people and against other people, volunteered to help with things, and intentionally tried to drive wedges between Glom and Gaudi/Mag- yeah, I did. Never denied it, and I knew exactly what I was doing and why at the time. I don't even understand why people insist on calling me out on it like there's something wrong with it or that I tried to hide what I was doing. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have done things differently had the "pkers" that had a problem with this had done anything but whine about it. And all that stuff I mentioned? It's roleplay. And also pk. @Eliron is awesome, but mostly, he did paperwork.

Suck it up, Siam. These problems have solutions, most of which involve being more dedicated, more willful, and more creative than your opponents. The fact that you and the anti-alliance faction in Glom are not is not my problem.

Siam

Kethaera said:

Siam said:

Tea time dictates alliances, you guys.

Hey, @Siam. When's the last time you've done anything useful for Glom? Do you count the insulting posts you write on Court? The time spent standing around the Ravenwood being questionably logged in?

Part of what I find extremely irritating about this tea time nonsense is that from my perspective, -I- was the one largely pushing for and acting on the idea of an alliance with HalliCelest. And I didn't do so by roleplaying in manses- I fought with people and against other people, volunteered to help with things, and intentionally tried to drive wedges between Glom and Gaudi/Mag- yeah, I did. Never denied it, and I knew exactly what I was doing and why at the time. I don't even understand why people insist on calling me out on it like there's something wrong with it or that I tried to hide what I was doing. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have done things differently had the "pkers" that had a problem with this had done anything but whine about it. And all that stuff I mentioned? It's roleplay. And also pk. @Eliron is awesome, but mostly, he did paperwork.

Suck it up, Siam. These problems have solutions, most of which involve being more dedicated, more willful, and more creative than your opponents. The fact that you and the anti-alliance faction in Glom are not is not my problem.

Oh you mean time other ignoring your attempts at being noticed, @Kethaera? Oh and ignoring you asking me if I'm ignoring you? PLENTY. Come on. Just because I'm ignoring you in-game doesn't mean I'm AFK, girl. My banana cake just started tasting salty. Oh and that last time you were trying to get to response to your antics at the nexus? I wasn't AFK. In fact, I was shaking my head at you. I've found the best solution to deal with you and that is to ignore you, completely, in-game.

edit:

Oh, and before you cast aspersions towards my contributions to Glom, girl, I'd like to remind you just because YOU don't know it, doesn't me it's not there. There is a lot of going on behind the SDs - in fact I dare you to refute you to refute this. You show precisely what is wrong with YOUR mindset, as has been mentioned in this thread previously. You want people to talk to you? You want people to communicate? Can't find it? MAYBE the problem lies with YOU. Suck that up, Kethaera.

Oh, and if you love roleplaying and pking with Hallifax so much why don't you go back? There. I said it. Go back. You were clearly much happier and less angsty there. It might work for you.

Cyndarin

This is still going on. 

1) 3v3 is the only sustainable layout of alliances largely due to domoth lockout mechanics. A 2v2v2 means you will have a tough time taking any domoth paired with what your alliancemate has. There are other reason, of course, but the mechanics like these force organizations to gravitate towards having safety nets that consist of more than one other organization. Are you going to let evil enemies number 1 and 2 take a domoth while you sit it out or are you going to let not-friend-but-not-all-bad-org help you push them back. 

2) The most frustrating part of this for me is the denial of just basic truths that we just need to agree on before any honest discussion can be had. This goes back to what has already been noted along time ago, and it was said by Shuyin here, and by me specifically in a Court post-this 4v2 held marginal to no benefit for Glomdoring as the second string forest choice.

That was always countered with high handed rheotric about Glomdoring using things to its own ends and the supremcy of the wyrd yadda yadda, and what amounted to typical veneered Glomdoring RP that Glom uses to explain how it can never be on the back foot. Fine. However, that cannot actually be defended as reasonable in an OOC discussion. The reason these discussions are so personally frustrating is that saying "there are other options," or "you just want it your way," sound kind of ridiculous when you consider that this entire thisng has played out exactly as predicted by the same people who told everyone it was a bad idea in the first place and continue to do so, and the people who told them they would be wrong continue to argue the same points.  

Yet here we go again on the same merry-go-round of absurd reasoning. Gosh, these things are quantifiable, they are measurable. Glomdoring is not, by any honest measurement, any better off now than it was before this alliance. They literally have nothing to show for it other than some essence buffers from aetherbashes. They squeak out the occasional revolt or bubble victory that everyone occasional wins due to the randomness of the timers, they don't consistently hold anything other than the only domoth they've had since before any official treaty with Hallifax. I can handle Xenthos chumming up with Kethaera against me, I can handle moving organizations because I'm bored, I can handle that this is a game with different perspectives and opinions. I lose patience when you're right, and you've been right, and people-just because they don't like the outcome-will stare you in the face and tell you that you are unreasonable and wrong. 

I'm sure, at this point, the Court will cook up its next bloated plot, use the typical RP vernacular to explain why Glomdoring will win in the end, and we'll end up exactly where we are now. Which sucks, I'd love to play with you guys in whatever capacity, but it is as Eodh said: I've invested too much and maybe take it too personally to continue to be directly involved. Especially now that I have to deal with selective forums alliances who hear only what they want to hear.

Kethaera

Siam said:

Kethaera said:

Siam said:

Tea time dictates alliances, you guys.

Hey, @Siam. When's the last time you've done anything useful for Glom? Do you count the insulting posts you write on Court? The time spent standing around the Ravenwood being questionably logged in?

Part of what I find extremely irritating about this tea time nonsense is that from my perspective, -I- was the one largely pushing for and acting on the idea of an alliance with HalliCelest. And I didn't do so by roleplaying in manses- I fought with people and against other people, volunteered to help with things, and intentionally tried to drive wedges between Glom and Gaudi/Mag- yeah, I did. Never denied it, and I knew exactly what I was doing and why at the time. I don't even understand why people insist on calling me out on it like there's something wrong with it or that I tried to hide what I was doing. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have done things differently had the "pkers" that had a problem with this had done anything but whine about it. And all that stuff I mentioned? It's roleplay. And also pk. @Eliron is awesome, but mostly, he did paperwork.

Suck it up, Siam. These problems have solutions, most of which involve being more dedicated, more willful, and more creative than your opponents. The fact that you and the anti-alliance faction in Glom are not is not my problem.

Oh you mean time other ignoring your attempts at being noticed, @Kethaera? Oh and ignoring you asking me if I'm ignoring you? PLENTY. Come on. Just because I'm ignoring you in-game doesn't mean I'm AFK, girl. My banana cake just started tasting salty. Oh and that last time you were trying to get to response to your antics at the nexus? I wasn't AFK. In fact, I was shaking my head at you. I've found the best solution to deal with you and that is to ignore you, completely, in-game.

Attempts at being noticed, really? I've tried all of once to talk to you to try to do something, in-character, about this obvious hatred, and your response is no response at all. Who is it that's holding the IC grudges again? The reason I asked if you were ignoring me is because I couldn't figure out what the deal was, and why it's gotten to this point that it's spilling over to OOC hatred. 

edit:

Oh, and before you cast aspersions towards my contributions to Glom, girl, I'd like to remind you just because YOU don't know it, doesn't me it's not there. There is a lot of going on behind the SDs - in fact I dare you to refute you to refute this. You show precisely what is wrong with YOUR mindset, as has been mentioned in this thread previously. You want people to talk to you? You want people to communicate? Can't find it? MAYBE the problem lies with YOU. Suck that up, Kethaera.

Oh, and if you love roleplaying and pking with Hallifax so much why don't you go back? There. I said it. Go back. You were clearly much happier and less angsty there. It might work for you.

I want people to talk, period. Whatever you do in the SD doesn't spill over into Glom, and again, I just wanted to try and address the obvious problem between us, for the sake of peace and harmony and so forth. I'll do whatever I want to do, thanks for the suggestion though.

Siam

Sure. When are you leaving?

Davos

"If you don't like it, get out" is not ever an effective argument except to demonstrate the arguers inability to cope with dissenting opinions.

Kethaera

Celina said:

This is still going on. 

1) 3v3 is the only sustainable layout of alliances largely due to domoth lockout mechanics. A 2v2v2 means you will have a tough time taking any domoth paired with what your alliancemate has. There are other reason, of course, but the mechanics like these force organizations to gravitate towards having safety nets that consist of more than one other organization. Are you going to let evil enemies number 1 and 2 take a domoth while you sit it out or are you going to let not-friend-but-not-all-bad-org help you push them back. 

2) The most frustrating part of this for me is the denial of just basic truths that we just need to agree on before any honest discussion can be had. This goes back to what has already been noted along time ago, and it was said by Shuyin here, and by me specifically in a Court post-this 4v2 held marginal to no benefit for Glomdoring as the second string forest choice.

That was always countered with high handed rheotric about Glomdoring using things to its own ends and the supremcy of the wyrd yadda yadda, and what amounted to typical veneered Glomdoring RP that Glom uses to explain how it can never be on the back foot. Fine. However, that cannot actually be defended as reasonable in an OOC discussion. The reason these discussions are so personally frustrating is that saying "there are other options," or "you just want it your way," sound kind of ridiculous when you consider that this entire thisng has played out exactly as predicted by the same people who told everyone it was a bad idea in the first place and continue to do so, and the people who told them they would be wrong continue to argue the same points.  

Yet here we go again on the same merry-go-round of absurd reasoning. Gosh, these things are quantifiable, they are measurable. Glomdoring is not, by any honest measurement, any better off now than it was before this alliance. They literally have nothing to show for it other than some essence buffers from aetherbashes. They squeak out the occasional revolt or bubble victory that everyone occasional wins due to the randomness of the timers, they don't consistently hold anything other than the only domoth they've had since before any official treaty with Hallifax. I can handle Xenthos chumming up with Kethaera against me, I can handle moving organizations because I'm bored, I can handle that this is a game with different perspectives and opinions. I lose patience when you're right, and you've been right, and people-just because they don't like the outcome-will stare you in the face and tell you that you are unreasonable and wrong. 

I'm sure, at this point, the Court will cook up its next bloated plot, use the typical RP vernacular to explain why Glomdoring will win in the end, and we'll end up exactly where we are now. Which sucks, I'd love to play with you guys in whatever capacity, but it is as Eodh said: I've invested too much and maybe take it too personally to continue to be directly involved. Especially now that I have to deal with selective forums alliances who hear only what they want to hear.

Several people now have told you that this doom-and-gloom scenario you portray is overwrought. It remains so, regardless of how much you want to believe it's an obvious truth that everyone should agree with.

But let's take the possibility that I don't actually object, as a player, to the idea of an alliance between Glom/Mag/Gaudi- because I don't. I object to fighting with people I don't know well and who aren't doing things for me that I want, in-character. If everyone wanted to go along with the alliance change, I would still object to people that bully others politically and people that change their story every week to match the current perspective. @Celina, you were the one who eventually provided the final push to side with Hallifax, remember? Take credit where credit is due, girl. You don't like it now? Ok? That still doesn't make it my fault, nor a Shee-Slaugh plot. The last post that was made before you left was my agreeing with you on something alliance-related.

Glomdoring is no worse off, either. If they wanted to force Serenwilde out of the alliance, it'd be entirely possible, IMO- but it would require cooperation and everyone being on the same page. So, I guess I actually mean it's not possible. Eh, oh well.

Cyndarin

Can we drop the "the alliance worked out cuz we so gud, do better," nonsense. The alliance happened because of the coupe in Magnagora and the subsequent exodus of the d'Murani. Nearly everyone was anti-alliance as the alliances were because Glomdoring was playings second fiddle to Seren, and the only thing holding anyone back was anti Mag sentiments, not some mastermind pro Hallifax politicians pulling the strings-unless you're trying to claim credit for Arcanis. People got tired of Mag and Arcanis and so the balance shifted to Hallifax and Celest. 

I do continue to find it baffling that, when you post, argue on the Court, or push for alliances, you're portraying yourself as a savvy, brilliant politician we are just so bitter about being unable to defeat. Yet, in your own words, the "pkers" were just whining. Gosh, I just don't get it. 

edit: It's not doom and gloom and I have never said such. Portraying it as such is dishonest and tacky. Something being bad, boring, and generally just crappy does not mean it's "doom and gloom." It's just what it is: bad. PRO TIP: Most people believe it's bad. It's why this thread exists. 

Yes, I was the last push. I got tired of doing nothing and realized that, despite my position still making the most sense, it was never going to happen because of the opposition. Some of it reasonable (Arcanis and the trees), some of it not. Ultimately, I figured I had other options should it play out as I predicted it would. I wasn't going to get stuck in an endless loop of perpetual disagreements with unreasonable opponents for a number of reasons. While you might find that as a fault, I think I was just being rational.

Ironically, it's hard to take your claims that i'm inflexible and unreasonable and only want things my way, only to point out I let you have your way when it suddenly suits your narrative. IJS.

Kethaera

Things worked out the way I wanted. I could think I was the worst politician in Lusternia and still find that much obvious. And yes, you are bitter.

Cyndarin

Davos said:

"If you don't like it, get out" is not ever an effective argument except to demonstrate the arguers inability to cope with dissenting opinions.

Not any worse than attacking a person's contributions to the game over a blurb about tea. 

Cyndarin

Kethaera said:

Things worked out the way I wanted. I could think I was the worst politician in Lusternia and still find that much obvious. And yes, you are bitter.

Sweet comeback.

Siam

There is hope, "stagnating" Glomdoring! Our savior Kethaera will carry us to victory. Plebeians, sit back, relax and enjoy.

Cyndarin

Flag wars commence. Calm down, Iasmos. 

I'm just saying, if you're going to unleash a salvo on Siam about how you don't think he brings any value to the game when he hadn't even mentioned you up to that point, much less made a disparaging comment about you, you probably should chill with the abuse flags. I might not agree with his statement, but you started it and what goes around comes around.

Aeden

Now with Hallifax, we never really had this problem. We typically always seemed to get along with each other, even when the alliance broke up. I've not been enemied to anything Hallifax related in RL years, if ever. Outside of what I assume is just boredom absolves(we need an entire new thread for me to rant about stupid absolve mechanics) and Aeden sticking to celest like glue, Hallifax even right now is pretty chill. <----------I'm not understanding what that has to do with Aeden.

Davos

He might be thinking of Maligorn, or just the fact that you're our most active domother so we often have Celest's help in that.