No-Stat Race System

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Comments

  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Ayisdra said:

    Turnus said:

    Once this system does go in. I would suggest a change to the intro where the players initial race is set to the org-race for their starting home. Given stats won't really matter it would help promote new players being the "right" race for the org they join.

    I would disagree with this.

    If anything, it should go back to allowing a person to pick their race at the very start of it now that stats won't matter.
    The main reason it was changed to go at the end was to accomodate guild races list, so they pick their race after they choose the guild they want to join. Otherwise you get things like Viscanti/Illithoid in Celest and all that other fun stuff. Granted, nowadays you can just reincarnate an unlimited amount of times as a newbie if you feel you picked the wrong race for your org... but there's still the matter that this is linked to grace of innocence which an unknowing novice could end up rejecting before they ever interact with anyone.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • TurnusTurnus The Big Bad Wolf
    edited May 2015
    Yeah. Unlimited reincarnations means if somebody doesn't care enough to pick a specific race it would be nice to default to their org-specific one, but if somebody actually cares to be a specific race they can without any issue.

    Edit: don't actually have a problem with them picking a race in creation. But defaulting as human ought to change.

    ~--------------**--------------~

    The original picture of Turnus is still viewable here, again by Feyrll.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    It wouldn't be hard for guilds to set a default race, as an extension of the current guild race lists. There could even be a mention of the awesome powers of the portal of fate somewhere in the intro, indicating that they can change their race if they so choose.
  • Elanorwen said:

    Ayisdra said:

    Turnus said:

    Once this system does go in. I would suggest a change to the intro where the players initial race is set to the org-race for their starting home. Given stats won't really matter it would help promote new players being the "right" race for the org they join.

    I would disagree with this.

    If anything, it should go back to allowing a person to pick their race at the very start of it now that stats won't matter.
    The main reason it was changed to go at the end was to accomodate guild races list, so they pick their race after they choose the guild they want to join. Otherwise you get things like Viscanti/Illithoid in Celest and all that other fun stuff. Granted, nowadays you can just reincarnate an unlimited amount of times as a newbie if you feel you picked the wrong race for your org... but there's still the matter that this is linked to grace of innocence which an unknowing novice could end up rejecting before they ever interact with anyone.
    I'm pretty sure it was moved to the end was because the admins felt that there were too many choices right off the bat and that guild races came later.

    Throwing people into an org race I feel will just have newbies not bother with trying a different race because that might make them feel that anything but the org race is looked down at. Although if newbies are aware of the unlimited reincarnations and that they don't have to be their org race, then it doesn't really matter I suppose what the 'starting' race is set too.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Ayisdra said:

    Elanorwen said:

    Ayisdra said:

    Turnus said:

    Once this system does go in. I would suggest a change to the intro where the players initial race is set to the org-race for their starting home. Given stats won't really matter it would help promote new players being the "right" race for the org they join.

    I would disagree with this.

    If anything, it should go back to allowing a person to pick their race at the very start of it now that stats won't matter.
    The main reason it was changed to go at the end was to accomodate guild races list, so they pick their race after they choose the guild they want to join. Otherwise you get things like Viscanti/Illithoid in Celest and all that other fun stuff. Granted, nowadays you can just reincarnate an unlimited amount of times as a newbie if you feel you picked the wrong race for your org... but there's still the matter that this is linked to grace of innocence which an unknowing novice could end up rejecting before they ever interact with anyone.
    I'm pretty sure it was moved to the end was because the admins felt that there were too many choices right off the bat and that guild races came later.

    Throwing people into an org race I feel will just have newbies not bother with trying a different race because that might make them feel that anything but the org race is looked down at. Although if newbies are aware of the unlimited reincarnations and that they don't have to be their org race, then it doesn't really matter I suppose what the 'starting' race is set too.
    I don't recall the exact situation. Either way, I don't see why the change to races translates into a change to the newbie tour. If anything, guild races list needs to remain and the choice of race needs to be where it is. As to org races... you still have Hallifax with the double org races. Which one do we go... or is that going to be RNG-decided?
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • TurnusTurnus The Big Bad Wolf
    I haven't actually done the tour since several redesigns back. I was under the impression it sets everybody as a human and then gives unlimited reincarnations until level whatever. If that's the case it makes sense to do an org race until they reincarnate. If they can still actually pick a race then whatever, never mind

    ~--------------**--------------~

    The original picture of Turnus is still viewable here, again by Feyrll.
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink
    Excited! But. Damn.

    Gonna be so hard to stick to this 'hunt to demi' thing once finks have an influence boosting trait...

    On the other hand, I don't have no lessons for influence skills.

  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Turnus said:

    I haven't actually done the tour since several redesigns back. I was under the impression it sets everybody as a human and then gives unlimited reincarnations until level whatever. If that's the case it makes sense to do an org race until they reincarnate. If they can still actually pick a race then whatever, never mind

    They get to switch from human after they pick their guild, and it shows them guild races list with the recommended/neutral/banned races. They also cannot pick a banned race at that point in time.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    It's still a less-than-ideal system. Basically, like the rest of the intro, it was cobbled together to solve a problem that didn't exist, and created new problems.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Everiine said:

    It's still a less-than-ideal system. Basically, like the rest of the intro, it was cobbled together to solve a problem that didn't exist, and created new problems.

    Yes, plenty of newbies complain that they didn't pick human but are already playing... which is weird as pretty much every other mud works the other way around where you get to pick your race first.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Which is how we used to be.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • I like the viscani change from active to passive.

    Dwarf is looking good too. Those elemental movement rings are super expensive and having a choice between offensive or defensive bonuses is nice.

    I think this whole sitch is turning out well.

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  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spot
    +1 to please no more human-as-default race after this change.
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
  • We'll probably still default to human and pick race later.

    We found that there were so many Lusternia races that true newbies were logging off during race selection because they were overwhelmed by information overload. It's best to get them into the game first, then address specifics later.
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  • PortiusPortius Likes big books, cannot lie
    Tiny fringe thing: Finks and gnomes don't have racial languages listed in their column. You should give them some.
    Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink
    So are there gonna be no stats at all, and all stas boosts will get replaced, or everyone has 12 in everything, or stats are given by something that isn't race?

  • As far as I understand, no stats.

  • edited May 2015
    Portius said:

    Tiny fringe thing: Finks and gnomes don't have racial languages listed in their column. You should give them some.

    They don't currently have one.


    There will be no stats, which means current abilities that use stats as a modifer, such as magical attacks, influencing, debating etc, will be normalised.


    Things that currently boost stats will be changed to fit the new system, such as Karma/Domoth blessings.
  • Will there be guildskills implemented that might change the efficiency of things? For instance, will Bards get an influencing buff from BardicPresence where they once got a charisma boost?
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  • TremulaTremula Banished Quasiroyal
    Do you have any ideas as to how domoths will be effected by this? Will the blessings be changed to random buffs or are you going to attempt to keep relatively on theme with the current system?
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • Ssaliss said:

    Will there be guildskills implemented that might change the efficiency of things? For instance, will Bards get an influencing buff from BardicPresence where they once got a charisma boost?

    This is already covered in the H/M/E bonuses granted by certain skill sets, so they'll have a larger ego pool to work from.

    I don't believe there are any plans to make X class better at Y directly, although Bards will still retain their bonus to dramatics through dramaturgy should they want to take a heavy influencing option.
  • Tremula said:

    Do you have any ideas as to how domoths will be effected by this? Will the blessings be changed to random buffs or are you going to attempt to keep relatively on theme with the current system?

    There's internal proposals but nothing that we can release public details on at this time.
  • Less than a week given to comment.

    Last deadline: Day given, though closer to two days actual.

    Not that any of this is uncommon for Lusternia. But what if instead, the proposal thread was shut down and a Final comments thread was opened for 72 hours?To be clear. This would have taken place a couple or few days ago.

    Overall the proposal seems very balanced. It still seems to fundamentally suffer from some of the previous race balancing issues. For example: Highly situational abilities (SCALE and DIVE) being given equal rate to more widely useful and general abilities. RP or flavour abilities given the same weight as utility or combat effective abilities. The inequities in damage types, resistances, and terrain types.

    I still think I would have rather seen damage boosts be given to skillsets (this would also solve the split damage type issue as well as address that some will have attacks that are types not in their given bonuses) and not general dmp boosts by class. This would have had the effect of not giving some orgs min/max damage with regards to whips/wands.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited May 2015
    Damage types should be more decently balanced with the huge changes to dmp, for everything but PvE (and who knows there), with the exception of physical typing pending warriors/armor changes.

    I was under the impression that whip/wand damage was basically static, and not modified by anything. And outside of great hunts, who cares?


    EDIT: 

    My question, with stats going away, will there be a way to selectively buff certain types of attack, not going through the typing system? For instance, totems - bear in the current system buffs damage across a wide range of types, because it buffs all strength based damage (By the raising strength stat): Cutting, Blunt, Magic, and Poison. It will be impractical to port that effect into the typing system, for a variety of reasons. Will there still be some way to add in wide typing modifiers?
  • Apologies @Steingrim but we want to continue to roll the overhaul out at a frequent pace. While we cannot poll every individual member of the community, the feedback given both here and in the envoys channel was a good sample of the playerbase, and it was constantly being subjected to internal review among the other Divine.

    For the record, the final 24 hours were infact 24 hours, it was submitted before the post was made, I was merely waiting back from Estarra regarding a couple of specific details.

    I will note that we considered a class variation, but it didn't make sense that someone could be amazing at wielding a magic type through spells, but suddenly joe normal while handling whips or affixing runes to their weapon. With the removal of racial maluses, damage types are more normalised in PvP. Granted there are people with head starts on certain damage types, or damage resistances, however the difference when you factor in all the available boosts through the buff system will be minimal at best.

    Yes you can still min/max in this new system, but the outliers will not have the same vast advantages they retain now over other players. Gone are the days of warriors with triple your health, double your mitigation and being backed up by people who can blast you aside with the flick of a wrist.


    @Enyalida There will be some skills yet converted over to this new system, strength bonuses for example could be converted to a damage bonus to certain damage types. We've tried to get most of the major modifiers in the new H/M/E format Estarra posted about. However we're aware, especially with intellect, strength and agility, that they serve as damage modifiers that are now gone.

    Attacks are limited to the 1-10 buff level system, and outside it are otherwise normalised without stats, and that's intentional. A lot of normalisation has come into this system which allows us to balance individual abilities much easier than before. Adjusting a spell that could have been used by someone with 14 intellect, and someone else with 22 intellect meant one side was always going to be unbalanced.

    Again this goes back to the min-max discussion that has been held throughout this part of the overhaul. Min-maxing isn't something we want to kill off and never have to deal with again, there are players in Lusternia who enjoy that play style who possess excellent ingenuity. We don't want to dissuade that talent, it's something to be respected and celebrated, like all other aspects of creativity in this game. However min-maxing was quickly approaching a state where it wasn't optional for combat, but was instead becoming mandatory.

    Not everyone who wants to engage in an aspect of the game should be made to pigeon-hole to do so. Cookie cutters are fine (within balance reasons) but they should not be the only choice to hand. My goal when writing this was akin to the system put in place in Diablo 3. There are optimal builds, but there are no wrong builds, you can achieve success regardless of your playstyle, it simply comes down to what your definition of success is.

    Granted, I expect the people at the top in any field to be the ones who do min-max, but it won't be purely because they picked the right race/class to do so but because of their understanding of their chosen field, their understanding of their abilities and the execution of their tactics.

    Should class/race choices become more important than the above, we'll adjust it.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    I agree with the balance philosophy. I guess more directly, my statement question is as follows: This and other changes create a situation where skills cannot reasonably be ported into the new system. In cases where they can be pushed into a convoluted new box, there isn't a compelling reason to bother. For instance, with the exception of extra strength for warriors (who are getting their own overhaul), all bear does is boost the damage on -wood attacks. If those attacks need the ported boost, the base damage should just get bumped up. Are there plans for dedicated archetype/class/guild/skill special overhaul reports to clean up these artifacts of the old system in a holistic manner?
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    I'm much more satisfied with the current layout / chart; I'm still reserving final judgement for how it looks in the final implementation (especially in regards to regeneration & the arty-trait), but all of the really "oh my..!" powers have been pulled back a bit to be more in line with the middling ones, and most of the really weak ones have been buffed up as well.

    At this point I'm no longer feeling like I'm going to be forced to get a cameo, but it might eventually be a nice thing to pursue (just like it has always been on my "Eh, maybe someday" list).  I just really don't like the concept of race hats; I'd far prefer a different implementation.
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  • Current envoy reports are dealing with the overhaul and assisting us in cleaning up remnants of the old system and converting it to the new one.

    If there are outliers, or balancing factors that adjusted poorly (or became too strong) this can be resolved through the envoy system.
  • After further discussion among the Envoys, regeneration levels have come to function accordingly:
    • Current regeneration (in the 3 level system) gives 2% regen at level 1, 5% regen at level 2, and 8% regen at level 3. Regen tics at a global timer of 10.31s.
    • New regeneration (in the 10 level system) give 1% regen at 1/10, 2% regen at 2/10, 3% regen at 3/10, etc. at the same global timer of 10.31s.
    Will post up my thoughts on the current overhaul proposed regen numbers in a bit.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    I need a dislike button
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