While I do find the new change
refreshing and it eliminates the idea of "Master Race for stat
advantage" as well as making unpopular races now useable (like Tae'dae),
I have a small problem with the realistic factor behind it.
How
does a Faeling warrior compare to an Igasho warrior in strength? Or an
Orclach mage compare to a Merian mage (Urlach aside). Removing stats,
which were the heart of the problem was, would solve the issue of race
imbalances, but it is basically equivalent to removing a cancerous tumor
and the patient is alive but now braindead. The stats of the races
reflected their strengths and weaknesses associated with it, which is
what gave them identity. I feel we should try to fix the problem
inherent in the stats rather than outright delete them.
An idea I
had before was to lower the 'necessity' and 'requirement' of stats for
effectiveness in combat, but still maintaining them for immersion
purposes. Combat advantages could then be added for class picks, making
any race be capable of using a class, but others simply having a slight
advantage (which wouldnt be too noticable). I had an excel sheet tucked away
that I once worked on. It is roughly incomplete but basically suggests
the concept I was thinking of.
The idea was that 'natural'
stats would vary between a minimum of 10 and a maximum of 15, while any
bonuses could increase it above that but with decreasing weight value.
Races would lose maluses but the stats would still reflect strengths and
weaknesses. One would then gain bonuses based on their class, rather than in race. This would then allow someone to actually play towards the concept of perhaps a Taurian mage, while still reflecting the idea that they arent as advanced in intelligence such as a merian.
(i'll have to post the sheet up by printscreen, as I am not very familiar with how to place a document in another fashion)
[spoiler] [/spoiler]
Im not entirely asking for a complete remake in place of this suggestion, however hopefully this may help with some new ideas.
Bit late to this idea discussion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Im not entirely asking for a complete remake in place of this suggestion, however hopefully this may help with some new ideas.
If you pick a race with defensive perks or damage type perks that don't benefit you then you will be doing less damage. This means that there are still sub-optimal race/guild combinations but here they are not so severe.
You can pick a zany mix for fun RP without having to miss out on the rest of the game. It's win win.
The stats of the races
reflected their strengths and weaknesses associated with it, which is
what gave them identity.
Seems like a pretty central thesis statement here, one which ignores the huge body of work that includes not only the written pre-player histories, but also the scads of race-central events, areas, npcs that work to give each race a flavor and backstory. Not to mention players who pour hours and hours into devising and playing out racial RP, like Marcella with the Orclach, @Azus with the Kepherans, and @Portius with Lobo Vassal Packs to name a few off the top of the head.
But stats give races their identity, taking that away removes all their identity.? Assuming that players won't be able to explore the RP difficulties of being say... an Illithoid Bard (which I've done before) without it being utterly miserable for the player (which it absolutely was) is patronizing and dismissive. This is a very very good move, which will open up huge vistas of previously niche (read: total non-com, terrible to PvE as) and very interesting roleplay.
If your racial rp was based entirely around your stats, you were doing it wrong. A race's identity is what gives them identity.
It's great that you can misunderstand a point and insult people at the same time.
Technically, she didn't misunderstand Arcanis' point. You may not agree with her opinion, but that doesn't quite mean she didn't understand the idea behind it in the first place, nor does it mean what she is saying is an insult.
The point is that stat points provide a point of reference for a race's identity - using the very same examples Arcanis did, a smaller sized (fairy-sized) faeling would not do as much damage (or as strong a swing) when compared to an Igasho, who towers over even the tallest and strongest humans, and who are biologically unsound to actually swing at a less strong swing by any point of reference to a Faeling. Similarly, it makes no sense that a Taurian, known for their herd instinct and propensity to physical activity, can compare in intelligence to merians in terms of spellcasting, which requires complex workings of magical theories and the intricate use of planar energies etc etc.
Those are good arguments for stats, if they exist, to continue to reflect racial identities. If the new system was one where a Faeling had more strength (or
warrior-attack boosting stat) than an Igasho, then sure, it would be out
of line. As it is, his suggestions may well have merit if stats were to remain in some form in the overhaul.
However, the new system is statless, a no-stat race system. The lack of a stat to denote "strength" doesn't mean Faelings are now stronger, or even on par with an Igasho in strength. They most certainly are still, biologically, (and therefore in terms of lore and racial identity) physically weaker. It is important to remember that racial stats reflect the
racial identity, they do not dictate or denote the racial identity. A
race's identity is not created or played out based on whether their
stats were high or low - it was the other way around, their identity
required that stats were a certain way. Therefore, the lack of statistical differences between races do not mean their lore, their identity is now somehow the same, or that they are now physically or mentally on par with each other. The new system does not, in any way, make the races blander in terms of their identity - because it is not the stat that tells you what the race is good or bad at - it is the race's identity and the lore books in the game, which explain those traits.
That is what she meant when she said that "a race's identity is what gives them identity". A Faeling used to be physically weaker than an Igasho not because their strength was lower, but because the lore said so - their strength was lower in order to conform to that racial identity. The racial identities were not thought up based on what the stats looked like. That system, however created imbalances that saw many races simply hamstrung mechanically. In a statless system, we remove mechanical imbalances of gameplay, without neccesarily sacrificing lore.
Yeah, faelings are weaker, but they have finesse. This used to be expressed in terms of strength and dexterity, and damage/wounding. But that's no longer the case. Faelings and igasho and mugwump warriors all do the same damage. Igasho are stronger, but less accurate, they could do a strong glancing blow. Faelings are weaker but can get under guards and do damage. And now mugwumps can lend cunning and strategy to physical blows, explaining their ability to do damage on par with the others.
So if you really are implementing this whole no-stat race thing..that means a cameo of the changeling is basically useless for anything other than rp purposes and for an item that costs an entire 1000 credits thats pretty lame..
Depending on the artifact boosted version of the demi+ racial abilities, which all seem very circumstantial, the cameo can still be very valuable to min-maxers. However, it certainly is true that players who don't mind not having every situational advantage in order to roleplay as the race they want can now do so without the need for a cameo. Which, I think, is definitely something I can get behind.
A faeling doing less damage than an igasho is not the same sort of identity as the racial histories. The same word is being used, but to mean very different things.
If a faeling and igasho show no signs of being weaker or stronger than each other than they are not weaker or stronger than eahother, no matter what the lore says. There is no way to prove that a feeling is in fact weaker or that it's not just some propganda which says otherwise. An important aspect of Lusternia's lore, is that information can be wrong, or heavily biased.
I'll let Arcanis comment on if he meant what you claim he meant, because I don't think that's what he was intending to say.
And yes, telling someone they are doing it wrong, because they expect the reality of the game mechanics to match the reality of the game world, is insulting.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited May 2015
Finding something insulting does not make something an insult. Some of you take this whole racial identity thing far too personally. Lore has always been the foundation of racial identities, it's simply been reinforced (much to the detriment of many races) by stats and "realism." Racial RP had never revolved around stats and racial perks. There was never any way to prove an igasho was stronger than a faeling, stat numbers have never been IC. What you could derive from actual IC things was that all the second circle shards actually sucked at war and combat. So while there's this imagined conflict between lore and reality because stats, which are not IC anyways, no longer support the lore...the reality is the lore can actually play out as intended. Second circle shards can actually be successful rather than mugwumps and merians, the thinker shards, ruling the world of PK.
Oh good grief, why are we feeding the troll again?
First we're moaning about how person X 'abuses the system' by going a specific race and then spamming high-damage attacks versus our squishy faeling rear end, then we're moaning about how removing stats removes racial identity. Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid... you're either a squishy faeling and getting your face melted by anyone that looks at you the wrong way... or you're a statless faeling. That's about the way the cookie crumbles. Yes, there will be people that are not happy with this. I can think of all the symphonium that no longer gets their master-influencer race... or every aslaran warrior that will no longer have lvl 2 balance boost, or every mugwump caster that will no longer have level 3 eq boost. Heck, I'm not happy about lucidian/trill aero damage traits... or the lucidian demi traits.... but this is happening, and it needed to happen. Deal with it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
ahem, to clarify about my mention of "stats and identity". What I meant was that the stats of the races -reflected- the characterization of these races. Faelings are naturally diminutive (size stat), and thus do not inflict much damage (low strength) nor have much fortitude to take a hit (low con). This is what I meant before about stats representing the race.
I admit that the old (current) stat system really is quite stunting with its terms of maluses and large variation between low and high stats, and it made it that we would rarely see certain races (to a point I believe that the Krokani race even received a small addition of being rarely seen and going extinct as actual game lore). However, I also cannot simply imagine a, as I believe someone above said, Illithoid bard. Illithoids simply are not charismatic creatures...for a very good reason. They feed on the ego of others, and cannot produce much naturally of their own as they are simply not charismatic by their nature.
The new statless system would most definitely untie races to class-picks, giving players freer picks on races based on what race they love, rather than what is more convenient to pick. I admit that I personally have always admired Illithoid and Krokani race, and it would be interesting to play one of these without the current maluses associated with it, however the idea that we would be attempting to make the idea of 'warrior-shard races' work in a spellcast fashion based off of player-RPing is not a very comfortable thought.
Depending on the artifact boosted version of the demi+ racial abilities, which all seem very circumstantial, the cameo can still be very valuable to min-maxers. However, it certainly is true that players who don't mind not having every situational advantage in order to roleplay as the race they want can now do so without the need for a cameo. Which, I think, is definitely something I can get behind.
Maybe it can still be valuable to some but for the most part I don't really see it. It seems like something that is now going to be way over-valued pricewise for what purpose it actually serves. I mean I love being a changeling and the rp that comes with that but to me now it's just a very very expensive artifact for rp purposes (well will be once this is implemented) I wanna keep the changeling ability but not for 1000 credits when that's now all it does for me! And really not just the cameo (though it seems most expensive) but what about every other artifact that affects the stats of races, will now be fairly useless... thats alot of credits spent on items that now have no value
Many artifacts are going to either go away or have a huge value change. I believe administration has already come out to say that if there are any major changes, they will offer trade-ins and so on for artifacts that undergo drastic alterations. This has (almost) always been the case, and they have a pretty strong track record on carrying through.
You don't get the power listed as a 'demigod' power on these tables when you become a demigod. You have to get demigod, and then spend essence and weight to unlock it. What?
Just now on envoys, I didn't have any idea until it was floated while talking about the big amazing artifact only perks.
On becoming Titan, you will get regen on prime and refresh power. On becoming a Demigod, you additionally get phoenix*. For anything else, you have to pay essence and lock up demigod weight.
Just now on envoys, I didn't have any idea until it was floated while talking about the big amazing artifact only perks.
On becoming Titan, you will get regen on prime and refresh power. On becoming a Demigod, you additionally get phoenix*. For anything else, you have to pay essence and lock up demigod weight.
*And lose conglute.
ah conglute, how I adored it. 0 cost to resurrect if death off-prime. Far better than phoenix.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Uh like you spend essence and weight on stats now? Not even a big deal, don't make it one.
Be nice if endowment of health/mana/ego were added as demi powers too as well as endowments that will give a minor boost to a damage type/damage source (like endowment of magic for 1/10 magic damage, etc) to replace the current endowments of + stats.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Right, like how we suffer a point-and-essence tax for forced buys, either because you really need the stats you once got for free or because there isn't anything else to choose.
Look, races are now going to be defined mechanically by the set of four perks they get. The most mechanically interesting and unique of these perks is the 'demigod perk'. You have to purchase it, if you don't, you're missing out on the signature interesting ability of that race. Just because we had to slog up the hill both ways in a snowstorm doesn't mean it's a good idea to force everyone to forevermore.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
But why? You pay for Demi perks now. Those perks are going away, at worst this is maintaining the status quo.
Such alarmists sometimes.
To elaborate: We now purchase stats as demigods as a kind of 'required purchase'. These add 1 point to stat totals that usually are already up around 16, or to bring up low scores of 8-10. At most, this is a boost of ~10% to certain things (1 point out of a total of 9), or much lower with diminishing returns at the upper end. Furthermore, most of the unique abilities in a race are not confined to stats.
A demigod Mugwump with 1 more int is not that much better than a Mugwump with regular int - the unique quality of the race is their speed bonus and damage resistance maluses. A better analogy would be making Aslaran speed a required demigod purchase at 20+ weight a pop. It's over one quarter of the race's abilities, and often the only remotely unique or interesting one.
EDIT: Moved sentence down for clarity.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Yes, it literally is. You might not like it, and that dislike might be valid, but it is literally just like the system we have now only adapted to fit the new race system. Complaining because it is "new," is just ridiculous. It's not new, to fit the meta, you had to invest weight and essence. It's identical.
Now whether it's a system we should keep might be a reasonable question.
Remember that you're losing the +stat bonus for getting Titan, too. I haven't heard anything about replacing that with a 1-level h/m/e boost (though really, that probably should happen for Titans just to keep that incentive / bonus in place).
Comments
While I do find the new change refreshing and it eliminates the idea of "Master Race for stat advantage" as well as making unpopular races now useable (like Tae'dae), I have a small problem with the realistic factor behind it.
How does a Faeling warrior compare to an Igasho warrior in strength? Or an Orclach mage compare to a Merian mage (Urlach aside). Removing stats, which were the heart of the problem was, would solve the issue of race imbalances, but it is basically equivalent to removing a cancerous tumor and the patient is alive but now braindead. The stats of the races reflected their strengths and weaknesses associated with it, which is what gave them identity. I feel we should try to fix the problem inherent in the stats rather than outright delete them.
An idea I had before was to lower the 'necessity' and 'requirement' of stats for effectiveness in combat, but still maintaining them for immersion purposes. Combat advantages could then be added for class picks, making any race be capable of using a class, but others simply having a slight advantage (which wouldnt be too noticable). I had an excel sheet tucked away that I once worked on. It is roughly incomplete but basically suggests the concept I was thinking of.
The idea was that 'natural' stats would vary between a minimum of 10 and a maximum of 15, while any bonuses could increase it above that but with decreasing weight value. Races would lose maluses but the stats would still reflect strengths and weaknesses. One would then gain bonuses based on their class, rather than in race. This would then allow someone to actually play towards the concept of perhaps a Taurian mage, while still reflecting the idea that they arent as advanced in intelligence such as a merian.
(i'll have to post the sheet up by printscreen, as I am not very familiar with how to place a document in another fashion)
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Im not entirely asking for a complete remake in place of this suggestion, however hopefully this may help with some new ideas.
But stats give races their identity, taking that away removes all their identity.? Assuming that players won't be able to explore the RP difficulties of being say... an Illithoid Bard (which I've done before) without it being utterly miserable for the player (which it absolutely was) is patronizing and dismissive. This is a very very good move, which will open up huge vistas of previously niche (read: total non-com, terrible to PvE as) and very interesting roleplay.
But. This is what is happening. And it is actually a good thing for the game. Really. It is. Even if I don't like it.
Kinda makes me want to play a viscanti Moondacer again.
The point is that stat points provide a point of reference for a race's identity - using the very same examples Arcanis did, a smaller sized (fairy-sized) faeling would not do as much damage (or as strong a swing) when compared to an Igasho, who towers over even the tallest and strongest humans, and who are biologically unsound to actually swing at a less strong swing by any point of reference to a Faeling. Similarly, it makes no sense that a Taurian, known for their herd instinct and propensity to physical activity, can compare in intelligence to merians in terms of spellcasting, which requires complex workings of magical theories and the intricate use of planar energies etc etc.
Those are good arguments for stats, if they exist, to continue to reflect racial identities. If the new system was one where a Faeling had more strength (or warrior-attack boosting stat) than an Igasho, then sure, it would be out of line. As it is, his suggestions may well have merit if stats were to remain in some form in the overhaul.
However, the new system is statless, a no-stat race system. The lack of a stat to denote "strength" doesn't mean Faelings are now stronger, or even on par with an Igasho in strength. They most certainly are still, biologically, (and therefore in terms of lore and racial identity) physically weaker. It is important to remember that racial stats reflect the racial identity, they do not dictate or denote the racial identity. A race's identity is not created or played out based on whether their stats were high or low - it was the other way around, their identity required that stats were a certain way. Therefore, the lack of statistical differences between races do not mean their lore, their identity is now somehow the same, or that they are now physically or mentally on par with each other. The new system does not, in any way, make the races blander in terms of their identity - because it is not the stat that tells you what the race is good or bad at - it is the race's identity and the lore books in the game, which explain those traits.
That is what she meant when she said that "a race's identity is what gives them identity". A Faeling used to be physically weaker than an Igasho not because their strength was lower, but because the lore said so - their strength was lower in order to conform to that racial identity. The racial identities were not thought up based on what the stats looked like. That system, however created imbalances that saw many races simply hamstrung mechanically. In a statless system, we remove mechanical imbalances of gameplay, without neccesarily sacrificing lore.
If a faeling and igasho show no signs of being weaker or stronger than each other than they are not weaker or stronger than eahother, no matter what the lore says. There is no way to prove that a feeling is in fact weaker or that it's not just some propganda which says otherwise. An important aspect of Lusternia's lore, is that information can be wrong, or heavily biased.
I'll let Arcanis comment on if he meant what you claim he meant, because I don't think that's what he was intending to say.
And yes, telling someone they are doing it wrong, because they expect the reality of the game mechanics to match the reality of the game world, is insulting.
A 12 year old is not as strong as a 20 year old, but both can break your leg the exact same way.
Doing damage to someone is about skill not strength.
There is no reason at all that a Faeling could not do the same amount of damage to someone as an Igasho.
First we're moaning about how person X 'abuses the system' by going a specific race and then spamming high-damage attacks versus our squishy faeling rear end, then we're moaning about how removing stats removes racial identity. Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid... you're either a squishy faeling and getting your face melted by anyone that looks at you the wrong way... or you're a statless faeling. That's about the way the cookie crumbles. Yes, there will be people that are not happy with this. I can think of all the symphonium that no longer gets their master-influencer race... or every aslaran warrior that will no longer have lvl 2 balance boost, or every mugwump caster that will no longer have level 3 eq boost. Heck, I'm not happy about lucidian/trill aero damage traits... or the lucidian demi traits.... but this is happening, and it needed to happen. Deal with it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I admit that the old (current) stat system really is quite stunting with its terms of maluses and large variation between low and high stats, and it made it that we would rarely see certain races (to a point I believe that the Krokani race even received a small addition of being rarely seen and going extinct as actual game lore). However, I also cannot simply imagine a, as I believe someone above said, Illithoid bard. Illithoids simply are not charismatic creatures...for a very good reason. They feed on the ego of others, and cannot produce much naturally of their own as they are simply not charismatic by their nature.
The new statless system would most definitely untie races to class-picks, giving players freer picks on races based on what race they love, rather than what is more convenient to pick. I admit that I personally have always admired Illithoid and Krokani race, and it would be interesting to play one of these without the current maluses associated with it, however the idea that we would be attempting to make the idea of 'warrior-shard races' work in a spellcast fashion based off of player-RPing is not a very comfortable thought.
You don't get the power listed as a 'demigod' power on these tables when you become a demigod. You have to get demigod, and then spend essence and weight to unlock it. What?
On becoming Titan, you will get regen on prime and refresh power. On becoming a Demigod, you additionally get phoenix*. For anything else, you have to pay essence and lock up demigod weight.
*And lose conglute.
ah conglute, how I adored it. 0 cost to resurrect if death off-prime. Far better than phoenix.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Look, races are now going to be defined mechanically by the set of four perks they get. The most mechanically interesting and unique of these perks is the 'demigod perk'. You have to purchase it, if you don't, you're missing out on the signature interesting ability of that race. Just because we had to slog up the hill both ways in a snowstorm doesn't mean it's a good idea to force everyone to forevermore.
A demigod Mugwump with 1 more int is not that much better than a Mugwump with regular int - the unique quality of the race is their speed bonus and damage resistance maluses. A better analogy would be making Aslaran speed a required demigod purchase at 20+ weight a pop. It's over one quarter of the race's abilities, and often the only remotely unique or interesting one.