Having a hard line stance is probably a bad idea. Just as capping it at 5 didn't turn out, it's possible that some future issues make a cap of 10 not work well.
If they didn't make any hardline stances, we wouldn't get anywhere because certain people complain about every last move.
If this overhaul is going to work, they need to put in the framework. The buffs, the afflictions, defs, etc all need to be in place and once that's all set and the framework is done, the gritty details that you so desire to work on, can be hammered out. The redesigns for the classes that will inevitably get them (Nihilists anyone?) can be really thought out and pushed through because we'll know exactly what we're working with rather than ideas and plans that may never come to fruition.
I've always been a fan of diminishing returns via Logistic Function or Exponential Decay Function or X-Root Function, but your mileage may vary. I like ``Hard Counter'' and ``Soft Cap''.
The more that I review this information, I likewise think that capping it at 10 would be good. We just need to fiddle with the numbers, and adjust accordingly.
Maybe making it so that changing a lot of the Universal resists to type-specific ones would help reduce the chance of making class-specific def skills obsolete. Maybe it won't, but I'm more a fan of this than expanding the overhaul past the 10 levels that go against the concept of simplification.
15/20 would allow us to do it at 2% resistance per level, whereas 30/40 would allow it to be 1% per level (slightly easier to explain). Going to 100 levels would be awkward in my opinion, simply because it would be a fraction of a percent per level and just end up being more confusing than helpful.
Here's an example of Universals on a 15/20 level system:
Kirigami Charm
1
3
Bookbinding
1/8
Amber Beer
1
3
Brewmeister
1/8
Attunement
1
3
Environment
3/8
Ascendant Affinity
1
3
General
2/9
Life Domoth
1
3
General
1/9
Veneration DevoutShield
1
3
General
1/9
Gnewpie King
1
3
General
1/9
Shrine Armour
2
4
General
3/12
Divine Favour
3
5
General
2/10
Shrine Protection
3
5
General
*Hunting only.
2/10
Note that I think this actually is a whole lot better than a 10-level system, while not going to absurd lengths. The intent would be, as Sojiro suggested, to get an average max for the standard individual to get to around 16% (8 levels). With generals set up like this, it would not be possible for the standard person to get to 15% to everything just from generals alone. The general defenses would get you to: Kirigami, Amberbeer, Attunement = 5/8. Those who min-max will be able to pile on quite a few more (protection, favour, etc), but doing so will make the other "general" defenses less worthwhile, while leaving room for the average person to take advantage and still get to around the 16% resistance level.
Now let's look at one of the other types, magic:
Magical
Dragon Sphere (+)
X
5
Astrology
x/12
Magical
Magic Tome
1
3
Bookbinding
1/8
Magical
Knowledge Domoth
1
3
General
1/9
Magical
Curio Resist
1
4
General
1 or 2 / 9 (split vs. non-split)
Magical
Magic Proofing
1
3
Tailoring
1/8
Magical
Tattoo Resist
1
3
Tattoos
1/8
Magical
Blessing
1
3
1/8
Of these, the most likely ones for the average user will be Magic Proofing and Tattoo Resist, for another 2/8, getting the average user to 14% magic resist, before guild skills are taken into account, and with a number of other options to expand and grow it.
I've been thinking about it today and I think I'm sold on the idea of 30/40 being too many levels, but 15/20 (as demonstrated here) provides the desired flexibility as far as the design concept goes, allowing to balance for both a general user and a min-maxer.
All right, the above tables and charts may be scrapped and redone-- we're in discussions with Roark right now about how the system is intended to be used, which isn't quite the understanding we've been working with thus far. Now I can see why they think that going to higher numbers isn't worthwhile. :P
Basically, each skill's cap is the maximum level that skill can push you to.
If you have eight 1/4 abilities, you will get to 4. If you add one a 1/10 ability, your total is 4 (the maximum from the 1/4 abilities), + 1 from the 1/10, to get to 5. There is no universal cap, just the cap of each skillset.
This makes it a lot easier to cap and balance generals, but it's also a bit more complicated as far as function goes.
The general idea now is that general skills will get you up to a total of 5 points no matter how many of them you stack (5 levels = 17.5% resistance). If you use Attune, it does two things: One, it raises the cap to 6 (up to 20% resistance), and provides an extra point to replace a common skill. I think this keeps it worthy of being a transcendant skill limited to environment type, without making it overly strong.
Only rare / limited general skills will go up to a cap of 7 (things such as Domoths, the Ascendant ability), so as to make them still desirable.
As long as you are under the cap of 10, Divine Favour will always add two levels (5%).
Shrine Armour is only in effect in the area where the shield shrine is located, so it can get you to 9.
Shrine Protection is bashing only, so it gets you two points, up to a maximum of 7. This helps get you to that total, and is an alternate option if you don't have something such as Affinity / Domoths.
This still allows for min-maxing (you can balance your tattoo selection around what other generals and guild skills you have) just to make sure you're at exactly the caps, but isn't "easily max out on everything with just 3 skills". There will still need to be some choices made.
Whoa, whoa why is fireflies from WW on the list? It doesn't give dmp in the old system. It's already one of the lesser-useful animals from wildecall, and that's a huge nerf.
EDIT: Actually, it isn't either. It's on the magic buff side, representing basically a new effect for the skill. It's probably fine as is, for niche boosting of damage output, as the only offensive wildecall effect.
I've flexed out but from Xiel's site... Wouldn't a 10% reduction based on damage source be a buff if it worked outside this system, which seems to be how it used to work. Possibly because it's based on source not type
It wouldn't be a buff, it'd be what it does already: block 10% of magic-sourced damage.
That seems like it should just translate as it does to a 2/5 buff (or whatever translates to 10%)
Otherwise, incoming damage would be reduced by this system, and then be reduced again by this (or the other way around) if it matches the type potentially meaning that a Wildewood could have damage reduction higher than the 40% cap proposed by the system.
I.e assuming the positioning as a buff was a typo, a Wildewood with appropriate 7/7 (or whatever) resistance would take 1000 damage from a magically sourced attack and reduce that to 600 and then reduce it again to 540.
I know: that's the idea, and how it works now - outside of the dmp system.
That's why it would be a significant nerf to include it in with the standard damage reduction system - it would make it subject to the diminishing returns/capping that it wasn't a part of before. It's intended a strong, but very temporary, defensive buff against being damage bursted down (though it's still one of the weakest animals in the set), compared to badger's defense against a wider range of damage, which tends to fade more quickly in battle. After ten hits, the fireflies dissapate, and another random animal makes its way to you, taking up to two minutes to arrive, and potentially having no bearing on your current situation.
EDIT: How are damage sources going to go away? We haven't seen the stat revamps, but I feel like it's probably pretty safe to assume that damage will still be based in part on stats, which will be based on race. The different sources might no longer have specific artifacts that boost them (well, magic source wouldn't), but we'd still need something to tell us "hey, this is intelligence-equivalent based" or "hey, this is strength-equivalent based", right?
I know: that's the idea, and how it works now - outside of the dmp system.
That's why it would be a significant nerf to include it in with the standard damage reduction system - it would make it subject to the diminishing returns/capping that it wasn't a part of before. It's intended a strong, but very temporary, defensive buff against being damage bursted down (though it's still one of the weakest animals in the set), compared to badger's defense against a wider range of damage, which tends to fade more quickly in battle. After ten hits, the fireflies dissapate, and another random animal makes its way to you, taking up to two minutes to arrive, and potentially having no bearing on your current situation.
EDIT: How are damage sources going to go away? We haven't seen the stat revamps, but I feel like it's probably pretty safe to assume that damage will still be based in part on stats, which will be based on race. The different sources might no longer have specific artifacts that boost them (well, magic source wouldn't), but we'd still need something to tell us "hey, this is intelligence-equivalent based" or "hey, this is strength-equivalent based", right?
Working within the system, 2/5 is still a 10% reduction, it's just not moving it above the limitations of the system, which is (afaik) the intention of this whole thing.
How would a "defensive class" look in this system? Does this basically mean you just would not have to have many (if any) collectible/grindable defenses? Or vice versa, that if you have enough 'common' defenses, you don't even need most of the lower guild ones anyway?
Or, if I do understand what @Xenthos is saying correctly, defenses become much more stackable things only under TF/artifact conditions?
I'm not really sure what the difference is between this and the current system, given the sheer volume of defenses available.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
My guess is that source will remain in that damage will still be based on stats, yes. However, source won't be factored into the defensive side; no 10% reduction from magic source damage etc.
Also i completely support nerfing the hell out of divine favours. They are essentially an RP mechanic so their impact on combat should be minimal. I don't think we should force combatants to constantly hop to the patron of the month that is giving out the most favours just so they can stay competitive.
I would be happy to see them taken out of the equation all together. I know people who have 30 RL years worth of favors won't like that but there is just no way to balance it unless you make some kind of divine essence vending machines.
Okay, I'd love some input on the spreadsheet I posted last night! I can't imagine everyone universally trusts & loves my initial musings. :P
As far as Riluna's question goes, if you look at my chart, general skills will "cap" at level 5 or 6 (depending on whether or not you use Attunement). No matter how many generals you stack, that's your limit.
Defensive guilds will provide options that give you the ability to get to higher levels. For instance, if Barkskin gives 1/8, Garb gives 1/9, and Nightkiss gives 2/10, a Shadowdancer using Attunement would have 8 levels minimum to all resistances, and 9 to cutting, blunt, poison, and magic, with a little more ability to tweak (though not much!).
Comments
Here's an example of Universals on a 15/20 level system:
Kirigami, Amberbeer, Attunement = 5/8. Those who min-max will be able to pile on quite a few more (protection, favour, etc), but doing so will make the other "general" defenses less worthwhile, while leaving room for the average person to take advantage and still get to around the 16% resistance level.
Now let's look at one of the other types, magic:
I've been thinking about it today and I think I'm sold on the idea of 30/40 being too many levels, but 15/20 (as demonstrated here) provides the desired flexibility as far as the design concept goes, allowing to balance for both a general user and a min-maxer.
Thoughts?
Will be rearranging things again.
If you have eight 1/4 abilities, you will get to 4. If you add one a 1/10 ability, your total is 4 (the maximum from the 1/4 abilities), + 1 from the 1/10, to get to 5. There is no universal cap, just the cap of each skillset.
This makes it a lot easier to cap and balance generals, but it's also a bit more complicated as far as function goes.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fyo9RnFbKd_zRVicwRu0r5Px_j5a32eFyZv0ubdW2f0/edit?usp=sharing
The general idea now is that general skills will get you up to a total of 5 points no matter how many of them you stack (5 levels = 17.5% resistance). If you use Attune, it does two things: One, it raises the cap to 6 (up to 20% resistance), and provides an extra point to replace a common skill. I think this keeps it worthy of being a transcendant skill limited to environment type, without making it overly strong.
Only rare / limited general skills will go up to a cap of 7 (things such as Domoths, the Ascendant ability), so as to make them still desirable.
As long as you are under the cap of 10, Divine Favour will always add two levels (5%).
Shrine Armour is only in effect in the area where the shield shrine is located, so it can get you to 9.
Shrine Protection is bashing only, so it gets you two points, up to a maximum of 7. This helps get you to that total, and is an alternate option if you don't have something such as Affinity / Domoths.
This still allows for min-maxing (you can balance your tattoo selection around what other generals and guild skills you have) just to make sure you're at exactly the caps, but isn't "easily max out on everything with just 3 skills". There will still need to be some choices made.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
As far as Riluna's question goes, if you look at my chart, general skills will "cap" at level 5 or 6 (depending on whether or not you use Attunement). No matter how many generals you stack, that's your limit.
Defensive guilds will provide options that give you the ability to get to higher levels. For instance, if Barkskin gives 1/8, Garb gives 1/9, and Nightkiss gives 2/10, a Shadowdancer using Attunement would have 8 levels minimum to all resistances, and 9 to cutting, blunt, poison, and magic, with a little more ability to tweak (though not much!).