Edit: Curios mimic skills in that they added DMP, and did not mimic actual artifacts. Yes, by definition they are artifacts but it doesn't make sense to repurpose curios under the new system to be existing artifact equivalents that they have never been nor ever intended to be.
I may be having issues following the system here. At times you're talking DMP, at other times in other threads this system is being applied to h/m/e. Has that changed?
As far as I know the only DMP artifacts currently are curios. Is the plan to nerf them to make room to sell more things?
If this system will apply to h/m/e then genie curios are arguably by any reasonable definition artifact equivalents.
It has always seemed to me that Estarra's, the entire staff's, and IRE's policies has been to been to favor whenever possible and reasonable past purchases. This is why it seems fair to me that curios get the same consideration and protection as artifacts.
I understand that there's room for change and these are preliminary, which is why I'm pointing out potential issues I see! Purely so they can be addressed! The only reason I brought up powercreep is because @Saesh and yourself brought it up and said you didn't understand the arguments.
Sure artifacts are powercreep too, given they'll still be required for top-tier to get that extra 10-15% damage. It'd be nice if how they fit into the system was more thoroughly explained, though if I had to guess lvl 1 = 1/5, lvl 2 = 2/6 and lvl 3 = 3/7, but confirmation would be good.
Shrine/Cult powers should probably be at a 1/5 buff/resist, given they are time limited and cost essence/karma
To more thoroughly explain the issue of powercreep and it's relevance to this overhaul, here's how I view it. The artifacts in general aren't powercreep because they've been involved since the getgo. Curios, kirigami, beers, teas, wigs, genies, cooking curios, etc are all the powercreep. They each added a minor bonus with a interesting mechanic, but given the fact they all stacked, meant they all became required pieces to get into top-tier combat. You maxed out guild skills, great, now you have to hunt for this curio to boost your damage and these curios to build your resist, stock kirigami and platters and beers and teas in addition to regular herbs/potions so you can max that out too. That's what the powercreep is/was.
This will limit it some, by hardcapping it at 5(+artifacts), but by having these things be 1) more effective than guildskills and 2) get you to points you otherwise can't get to, they are still required and that powercreep isn't eliminated.
Edit: Curios mimic skills in that they added DMP, and did not mimic actual artifacts. Yes, by definition they are artifacts but it doesn't make sense to repurpose curios under the new system to be existing artifact equivalents that they have never been nor ever intended to be.
I may be having issues following the system here. At times you're talking DMP, at other times in other threads this system is being applied to h/m/e. Has that changed?
As far as I know the only DMP artifacts currently are curios. Is the plan to nerf them to make room to sell more things?
If this system will apply to h/m/e then genie curios are arguably by any reasonable definition artifact equivalents.
It has always seemed to me that Estarra's, the entire staff's, and IRE's policies has been to been to favor whenever possible and reasonable past purchases. This is why it seems fair to me that curios get the same consideration and protection as artifacts.
I'll be honest, I have a hard time following your questions.
The DMP buff curios have never mirrored damage buff artifacts. This thread is exclusively about damage buffs and resistances. In the new system, they are lumped with the skills just like they were in the old system. I don't believe this constitutes a nerf. I, personally, don't think it is reasonable to expect a curio refund because we aren't converting dmp curios into damage rune equivalents that they've never been, but ultimately that is not my call. If you have concerns about genie curios, I would reserve those until that portion is released.
I'm planning on pulling up Xiel's breakdown by skill type and doing some preliminary suggestions based on a 10-tier system. What I think Saesh is missing out on is that not all guild skills need to be (for example) 1/3 (or 1/6 under a new system). For example, the skills that Enyalida keeps talking about could easily be something like 3/9 or 4/9. Note that these are for a single damage type and the class is supposed to be resistant to this type of damage, which will definitely allow more variety and flexibility! Under the 5-level system, that's just not possible (one skill on its own would max you out).
I just really dislike it being 5 levels, because it provides no flexibility whatsoever. Every permanent skill must be 1/* or it just breaks things and makes everything else worthless, whereas in a 10-level system many of the common things can be 1/*, with specialized guild skills providing a greater weight, to emphasize that guild's affinity for that type of damage. I'm hopeful that you'll see what I mean once I've made some progress.
Okay. I have it all split up by guild now. I'll do the guild one separately (it's huge, and I don't have any suggestions yet). Here is my original run on just the generals. I think it will become immediately obvious why a cap of 5 won't work. I'm actually now wondering if 10 levels is even enough!
Post how much each level is, for clarity. That way, if percentages change, or the number of levels changes we can keep things straight. Something like:
Each level would be ~2.5% with a maximum of 14 levels with artifacts (10 levels normally without artifacts). At this point I am just doubling the base level, and as such, halving the effect-per-level so it will match up at the maximum with Estarra's earlier post. The first two levels are worth more, so as to get it to the desired end result (30% at 10).
1 will be 5%, 2 will be 10%, 4 will be 15%, 6 will be 20%, 8 will be 25%, 10 will be 30%.
I started working on a general defup list. I think I'm going to have to nerf the shrine powers and Truefavour, otherwise a Truefavour would pretty easily allow anyone to max out. I think it should remain powerful (max of 10), but just have a buff weight of 1. Its power would be in that it lifts the cap to the non-artifact max. Here's a general defup list: Kirigami (1/6) Amber Beer (1/6) Attunement (2/6) DevoutShield (1/6)
Note that the Attunement will only kick in if you're regularly spending 10p whenever you switch environments. Without it, you're at 3/6 (12.5%), with it 5/6 (17.5%) damage resistance). That's just for generic. Then you have all of the other more specific skills which will allow it to go up.
Curious about the splendour weights, and if the chems could get buffed up a little.
Also, not sure if it was asked but how much weight would the tattoos take up as I think they're variable currently
All I'm doing right now is tweaking the buffs themselves. I'm speculating that they want it to be what it currently is (you need the full 100 weight of tattoo total in order to get the full benefit). I'm also not really interested in doing rebalancing of specializations / archetypes / guilds with this, that's not the point. Preferably guilds will still have the same general focus that they had prior to the defense overhaul. If you did not have much DMP before, then you should have a bit less protection than other guilds that had a ton after.
I already brought up WWs loudly on Envoys, which is part of why I suggested moving to a system with a larger number of levels. I have a list of skills from the Druid skillsets I thought had problem settings, I'm going to wait for that part of the list to come out updated before posting my own list. That is: Not 'new' balance, but places where I felt that the assigned current value didn't match up with pre-overhaul relative levels, even accounting for old diminishing returns. Like curios that give 5dmp to to types suddenly giving 1/3 to two types... the exact same as our Iron bark, which gives THIRTY to one type.
That's the same for psymet, Enyalida. I think it's more productive to take the new numbers and tweak them so that relatively, they put the guilds they serve back in the general same status quo when viewed as a whole, and not balance one ability by one ability back to their old values. That would just take counter productively long periods of time. For example, if WWs used to have strong defenses against a specific damagetype, the numbers of the defense buffs specifically available to WWs can be tweaked so that remains true in the new system when added together.
Rather than looking at abilities in isolation and taking issue with how one should be loads better than the other just based off of their old dmp values, we should be looking at skillsets as a whole and tweaking values so that they all mesh together correctly.
Right. Of course in this case, the WW dmp is chiefly to blunt damage (which all their attacks do) and poison (in direct opposition to Glomdoring's favorite damage type).
Curious about the splendour weights, and if the chems could get buffed up a little.
Also, not sure if it was asked but how much weight would the tattoos take up as I think they're variable currently
All I'm doing right now is tweaking the buffs themselves. I'm speculating that they want it to be what it currently is (you need the full 100 weight of tattoo total in order to get the full benefit). I'm also not really interested in doing rebalancing of specializations / archetypes / guilds with this, that's not the point. Preferably guilds will still have the same general focus that they had prior to the defense overhaul. If you did not have much DMP before, then you should have a bit less protection than other guilds that had a ton after.
I already brought up WWs loudly on Envoys, which is part of why I suggested moving to a system with a larger number of levels. I have a list of skills from the Druid skillsets I thought had problem settings, I'm going to wait for that part of the list to come out updated before posting my own list. That is: Not 'new' balance, but places where I felt that the assigned current value didn't match up with pre-overhaul relative levels, even accounting for old diminishing returns. Like curios that give 5dmp to to types suddenly giving 1/3 to two types... the exact same as our Iron bark, which gives THIRTY to one type.
@Xenthos, it's kinda this. Like Iron gives 20 to blunt, surging 20 to divinus, pyroaugment 20 to fire. On their own under the current system these single buffs give 20%.
However, if we compare say druidry(no direct buff currently) to wildewood(significant buff currently) there is no difference in terms of blunt buff once the system goes in because it's so easy to get it to max with generally available methods.
I don't see the justification for making icewynd curios exceptional boosts.
@Xenthos If you have the time and are so inclined, consider picking a guild or two. I think that would help people visualize the flow a bit better. I'd also like to see an example of how org buffs will play out.
Okay, I'm feeling it. I'm feeling the fantasy. It needs some tweaks (truefavors really jumped out at me), but I understand where you are coming from. Did you guys still want to address the universal damage defences?
As for armor/splendours, they weren't apart of the DMP system, I don't recall any plans to incooperate them into this system.
I've completed the missing abilities I my table and everyone should have access to the listing now. If something is missing, let me know and I'll play around with my own thoughts later. Fun stuff.
You know, if we go to 30 levels pre-artifact, 40 levels post-artifact, that would certainly make this easier...
/me glances at Estarra & Roark, then flees.
Not sure I understand the logic that this would make things easier. Seems like 10 should be enough for our purposes. 30 is an odd number to me. I'd actually prefer 100 to 30, with everything in multiples of 5 (so really there'd be 20 levels). But really why isn't 10 enough?
If that's the case, why not just make every single def give a straight percentage boost and cap it at 30% (artifacts being outside of this capping at 40%).
Yeah. The more tiers you have, the more you can finetune it, but at some point it becomes entirely unneeded. No def would be created that's 17/36, for instance. If 10 tiers won't be enough, then that can be tackled then; it'd (probably? This was going into a database, right?) be easy enough to just codewise multiply every def by two if we at a later stage need to increase it to 20 tiers.
I find the whole system very simple and very straight-forward. There are a great many tangible qualities which can e modulated, as evidenced by the current/previous set of artifacts/skills/abilities/potions/herbs/salves/powders/whatever. This mode seems the best way, as what people are really interested in are just three attributes: 1) The THING (Ex: magic damage) 2) The BOOST (Ex: boost level 2) 3) The CAP (Ex:cap level 3) Each of the above can be modulated independently, and conveniently packaged into an artifact/skill/ambient/racial/etc.
The logic of calcuating how one's total buff/debuff is simple. Is there possibility Rune X will negate Rune W? Sure, but that doesn't necessarily preclude ``upgrades''. It is very possible staff already intended to offer ``upgrade'' pricing when purchasing artifacts, so cries about ``But if I buy X and then W then I'm wasting my time!'' are a little premature. Besides, it may also be possible (but not necessarily easy) for IRE to deny buying invalid artifacts.
Comments
I may be having issues following the system here. At times you're talking DMP, at other times in other threads this system is being applied to h/m/e. Has that changed?
As far as I know the only DMP artifacts currently are curios. Is the plan to nerf them to make room to sell more things?
If this system will apply to h/m/e then genie curios are arguably by any reasonable definition artifact equivalents.
It has always seemed to me that Estarra's, the entire staff's, and IRE's policies has been to been to favor whenever possible and reasonable past purchases. This is why it seems fair to me that curios get the same consideration and protection as artifacts.
I'll be honest, I have a hard time following your questions.
The DMP buff curios have never mirrored damage buff artifacts. This thread is exclusively about damage buffs and resistances. In the new system, they are lumped with the skills just like they were in the old system. I don't believe this constitutes a nerf. I, personally, don't think it is reasonable to expect a curio refund because we aren't converting dmp curios into damage rune equivalents that they've never been, but ultimately that is not my call. If you have concerns about genie curios, I would reserve those until that portion is released.
I just really dislike it being 5 levels, because it provides no flexibility whatsoever. Every permanent skill must be 1/* or it just breaks things and makes everything else worthless, whereas in a 10-level system many of the common things can be 1/*, with specialized guild skills providing a greater weight, to emphasize that guild's affinity for that type of damage. I'm hopeful that you'll see what I mean once I've made some progress.
1 will be 5%, 2 will be 10%, 4 will be 15%, 6 will be 20%, 8 will be 25%, 10 will be 30%.
Here's a general defup list:
Kirigami (1/6)
Amber Beer (1/6)
Attunement (2/6)
DevoutShield (1/6)
Note that the Attunement will only kick in if you're regularly spending 10p whenever you switch environments. Without it, you're at 3/6 (12.5%), with it 5/6 (17.5%) damage resistance). That's just for generic. Then you have all of the other more specific skills which will allow it to go up.
/me glances at Estarra & Roark, then flees.
@Xenthos If you have the time and are so inclined, consider picking a guild or two. I think that would help people visualize the flow a bit better. I'd also like to see an example of how org buffs will play out.
If we're gonna ask for 40 or 100 levels, then wtf, why not just improve dmp and make it easier to read.
1) The THING (Ex: magic damage)
2) The BOOST (Ex: boost level 2)
3) The CAP (Ex:cap level 3)
Each of the above can be modulated independently, and conveniently packaged into an artifact/skill/ambient/racial/etc.
The logic of calcuating how one's total buff/debuff is simple. Is there possibility Rune X will negate Rune W? Sure, but that doesn't necessarily preclude ``upgrades''. It is very possible staff already intended to offer ``upgrade'' pricing when purchasing artifacts, so cries about ``But if I buy X and then W then I'm wasting my time!'' are a little premature. Besides, it may also be possible (but not necessarily easy) for IRE to deny buying invalid artifacts.
On the whole? The engineer in me likes this.