Combat Overhaul

Estarra

As many of some of you may know, those who came to the IRE Meet was given a sneak preview of a proposal for a possible combat overhaul. We met and discussed the pros and cons, what players liked and didn't like and what the goals are. Below is an abbreviated version of the proposal. (Details in the full proposal are currently under review based on discussions). We still are not decided on fully committing to this project as it would suspend development for a very long period (possibly up to a year). However, we are looking at creating a basic version that people could test in the arena through character shells (see section on testing). This is a HUGE project and will not be taken lightly but please feel free to comment!

Overview

Combat in Lusternia has become overly complex and difficult for even many advanced players to enter competitively. While one can point to many specific skills or systems, the main reason is what is commonly referred to as “feature creep”, i.e., the process of adding complex features and mechanics over the years has cumulatively created an extremely difficult combat system, including (but not limited to) over 200 afflictions. While looking into possible tweaks and adjustments to ameliorate the complexity, it appears that balancing one system creates imbalances elsewhere. Thus, the goal of this proposal is to look into a complete overhaul of the combat system, ranging from how racial statistics work to rewriting damage formulas and removing over 100 afflictions to make combat more manageable for more players. However, before committing to the project, the pros and cons must be weighed before coming to a decision.

Pros of a Combat Overhaul

The advantages of a complete overhaul of the combat system are multitudinous, including:

• More manageable afflictions;
• A lower bar for entry into combat;
• More balanced system overall;
• Easier to balance going forward;
• Quicker combat sessions;
• More difficult to ‘game’ high damage or extreme statistics (including overly high health, regeneration, etc.); and
• Updating code with underlying databases for skills, etc., to make future updates and rebalancing more efficient.

Cons of a Combat Overhaul

The main issue with a complete overhaul of the combat system is the amount of resources and time required to implement. It is estimated that it would take between 6 to 12 months of focusing all coding resources to the project. All 98 current skillsets, comprising thousands of individual skills, would need to be rewritten (though, of course, some would need more work than others) as well as all the revisions of artifacts and racial systems. Further, this project cannot be done in stages because the proposed new combat system is not compatible with the current combat system, making it impossible for the two systems to be in use simultaneously. Therefore, Lusternia could be in a state of little visible development for up to a year while this project is underway. Also, some players who enjoy gaming combat in order to find extremely powerful states may be displeased with not being able to outmaneuver each other in the manner in which they are accustomed.

Health, Mana, Ego

The formulas for health, mana and ego would no longer be tied to racial statistics (i.e., constitution, intelligence, charisma). Rather, these statistics would be determined by the archetype of the player. They would start with a base of 500 for each statistic with an additional bonus per level:

Archetype	Health	Mana	Ego
Warrior	85	70	60
Mage/Druid	60	85	70
Guardian/Wiccan	70	80	65
Bard	70	60	85
Monk	80	65	70
No Archetype	50	50	50

Racial Statistics

Statistics would be rethought and redone, including the removal of size and possibly adding more statistics. The end result would be combat oriented, probably dividing statistics into two types: (1) those that impact physical combat, and (2) those that impact non-physical combat.

Afflictions

The goal would be to remove all afflictions in game (as we know them) and replace with a new, simpler affliction system. Afflictions would be divided into categories and each category would have five levels of afflictions (so an implicit goal to reach the higher levels). It would only be possible to reach the highest level in an affliction category for certain skills (i.e., just because one has the skill to do blunt trauma affliction does not necessarily mean the highest level blunt trauma affliction. Thus, skills would be remain unique and have clear combat goals.

Buffs/Debuffs/Armour/Weapons

The five level system would carry on to buffs, debuffs, armour and weapons. Thus, the effects would be maxed out at 5.

Class Overhauls

To overhaul most skillsets, the entire skillset would be reviewed and stripped of all the old afflictions, buffs and debuffs and replaced with the new system.  Note there would only be one or two level 5 afflictions contained within one skillset, thus reinforcing the uniqueness of a skillset. 

Testing

Because it is not possible to mix the old combat system with the new combat system, nor would it be possible to maintain two separate codebases for up to a year, it is proposed that the new combat system would be coded in parallel with the existing code, though in no way would the two systems interact. Rather, it is proposed that the new system would only work on those characters specifically flagged to use the new system. These flagged characters will only be available as character shells for arena duels. Players would enter the arena in a special duel and choose which character shell to become. These character shells would have basic equipment and skills and players could play test combat with the shells and provide feedback to the administration.

Artifacts

Upon final conversion to the live game, those artifacts that are incompatible with the new system would be allowed to be traded in at full artifact value. New artifacts would be released that could then be purchased as replacements.

Karlach

So let me get this bit right:

"The formulas for health, mana and ego would no longer be tied to racial statistics (i.e., constitution, intelligence, charisma). Rather, these statistics would be determined by the archetype of the player. They would start with a base of 500 for each statistic with an additional bonus per level:"

So Demigod warriors would have 500 +85x100 meaning a basevalue of 9k HP for example?


Edit: Should note, I've more thoughts and such, just reading through, that's the first question on my mind.

Kio

Morkarion said:

So let me get this bit right:

"The formulas for health, mana and ego would no longer be tied to racial statistics (i.e., constitution, intelligence, charisma). Rather, these statistics would be determined by the archetype of the player. They would start with a base of 500 for each statistic with an additional bonus per level:"

So Demigod warriors would have 500 +85x100 meaning a basevalue of 9k HP for example?


Edit: Should note, I've more thoughts and such, just reading through, that's the first question on my mind.

You're taking this completely out of context, seeing as how there would be new -everything-.  You can't know that 9k hp is going to be incredibly high without knowing everything else, too.

Karlach

I'm more making sure I've got the understanding right, I mean skills and such will change, and I assume certain blessings that increase H/M/E values by a static percentage will too.

I'm just asking if I'm right with the formula, was going to look at it across all archtypes.

Shuyin

Sounds about right, yes.

High numbers like that might not mean anything when the system is done, though, given that they're reworking pretty much everything that matters.

Imperian, for example, has extremely low hp numbers, but it works within the system they have.

Karlach

Also I'm assuming this affliction cull will extend to NPCs?

Yes I know, PvE questions in a PK thread, but I'm curious >.>

Xenthos

It will have no choice but to extend to NPCs.  The two systems can't exist at the same time.

Xena

Sounds like you narrowed it down to all the stuff we liked from our meeting. It'll be interesting to see how this evolves. New game essentially! Can't wait to learn it!

Sidonie

I am all for anything that doesn't make it a nightmare to get involved combat. 

Karlach

Honestly I'm hugely excited for this, I just had questions that I suppose probably got answered in Vegas (curses for not having a spare couple of grand )

Shaddus

So, you're removing the racial bonuses for specs? Are you removing bonuses/maluses for races as well? We're not going to statpacks, are we? /fret

Rivius

So it would be like we're starting from scratch almost? It'll take a lot of work, and there'll be a lot of things we'll miss, but there's also a lot of opportunity in this endeavor. I'd be pretty interested in seeing this.

Shuyin

Shaddus said:

So, you're removing the racial bonuses for specs? Are you removing bonuses/maluses for races as well? We're not going to statpacks, are we? /fret

They're not doing statpacks. Something like that was brought up, but the players present voted for making sure that certain races are still better at X compared to others.

(I didn't vote for that, because I am a jerky jerk).

So yeah, I'm sure races will still be distinct.

Shaddus

Oh, I misread. So stats will likely be the same, but h/m/e won't be tied to them anymore. Got it.

Rivius

Yeah, if we can make every race 'ok' at everything and have every race have a niche, that'll be fantastic. There's some races no one will ever play right now for combat reasons, which is why we have so many people buying race hats.

Tridemon

Hmm. This is also going to affect demigod and ascendant powers... the utility of the various endowments, first off.

Daem

So is the underlying theme of the different archtypes going to change? If so how dramatically?

 For example: Are Wiccans still going to have a host of fae and work to turn people into toads? If so is it just the method to the end result that changes, different afflictions, balance tweaks, etc?

I just don't want the things that feel cool, like for me turning someone into a toad, or befriending my fae, to go away and be replaced with something else. I am aware that some classes may change that have a weak overall theme, and if it's better for the game as a whole that's cool, but I as a player am attached to some things. I just wanted to know how that's being taken into consideration.

Other than that lowering the bar of entry sounds like a wonderful idea. I stopped playing for a year and relearning everything has just felt like such a chore.

Estarra

Daem said:

So is the underlying theme of the different archtypes going to change? If so how dramatically?

No, the themes won't change but the afflictions would.

Lavinya

A race being viable for both RP and combat? Yes please! Anything that is going to make what is nothing but a confusing headache to me (combat) simpler and easier for new players to enter into sooner is fabulous in my book.

Turnus

I like the sound of this.

Though the devil is, as they say, in the details.

Marcella

I'm scared about all of the artifacts and things and a lot of it will probably be a nightmare to reimburse if IRE feels like it in the first place, hahaha, or balance around, even.

Estarra

I would like to reiterate that the cost of fully committing to this project is pretty much putting all other development on hold for up to a year. Would it still be desirable?

Karlach

Estarra said:

I would like to reiterate that the cost of fully committing to this project is pretty much putting all other development on hold for up to a year. Would it still be desirable?

I assume that doesn't include the monthly envoy reports to the game as it is?

Honestly, a combat overhaul and simplification of the affliction system is more appealing to me, and IMHO more likely to bring in more players than a few new curio types, a new bashing area and the odd Jesus feature. As far as I'm concerned this is well worth a year of game limbo to push forward, and I hope as many people contribute to testing as possible.

Kendus

Estarra said:

I would like to reiterate that the cost of fully committing to this project is pretty much putting all other development on hold for up to a year. Would it still be desirable?

Since it was development (feature creep) that caused this in the first place, I don't see that as a very bad thing.

Kio

Estarra said:

I would like to reiterate that the cost of fully committing to this project is pretty much putting all other development on hold for up to a year. Would it still be desirable?

Yes.

Elanorwen

It sounds interesting. I would certainly like to see more in-depth information toward it, but at a first glance, it looks like it will be an interesting development. I'm also going to assume that envoy reports WILL get suspended during the rework process, as there won't be much point to them changing stuff that will change eventually. I am not entirely too happy about that particular assumption, but it is just that, an assumption, and it doesn't affect the fact that I'd like to see a lot of these changes expanded upon a bit.

Rivius

Well, suspending other development for a year for this might actually pay off. I'd say we're good content-wise for a fair while.

Lerad

The current system in Lusternia is in a decent state of balance. Outliers are rare and few (even though they do exist) and from a macro view, combat is balanced save for one or two sore thumbs. Even if envoy reports were to be stopped for a year (assuming it doesn't get valve-timed into 2, 3 years) the overall combat scene will not suffer overly much (though it will still suffer from lack of reports).

Such a scenario is the perfect time to completely overhaul the combat system. The reason why such things very rarely happen is because in this kind of status quo, there is little incentive to put in the effort (see above about how combat is generally balanced) for the coders and admin. However, from the point of view of a combatant, it is a great idea. While the current combat system has its perks and some of my favourite mechanics and feel (which will all no doubt be tweaked or even removed outright) it is simply impossible to fix certain problems. Part of this is already touched on above in Estarra's post, like the reality of having too many afflictions for newbies to reasonably learn within a certain period of time. But there are also meta factors (like people's perceptions of monks) which obstruct envoy reports from making a difference where it is needed. In such situations, starting on a clean slate is sometimes the only choice - no alternative exists unless players are willing to live with the problems that the current system creates.

Overhauling the system will also have long-term benefits. The envoy system came after the combat system, and acts and works pretty much like a bandaid, even to this day. The limitations of the envoy reports are to ensure the sanity of our volunteer coders and prevent envoying from being an endless blackhole that sucks up coding resources. With an overhauled system, however, envoying (or its future implementation) can be designed alongside, with the new system created to easily receive feedback and make changes. It is hoped that some time can also be spent on thinking about how the new system will interact with player feedback after it is implemented, and designing the combat system in a way that tweaking and balancing is easier to do (both in actual coding, and in the meta "balance" debate) so that envoying in the future need not be so limited.

The prospect and possibility of losing some of the most adrenaline-inducing and fun tactics that the current system has (and make no mistake, it IS a fun system) saddens me, but the promise of a more balanced system that is easier for newbies to get into (and thus for me to re-learn) outweighs the nostalgia that I will no doubt have.

Everiine

Feature creep has been a huge issue in my opinion, and I am all in favor of such a long-term plan. A year may seem like a long time, and people will get bored and leave the game for a while, but the end result is well worth it--and may just entice a few people back. Obviously, the details make a difference, but I think that given a year of intense, focused work, I am confident that the game will be much, much better for it.

A relevant question to ask, though, is how do we prevent Feature Creep in the next version of the game? Our philosophy as players demanding new shinies is going to have to change, and the admin are going to have to stick to wise, long-term actions instead of the quick feature fix. Aee we prepared to do that?

Thul

It sounds like it'll be a fairly painful process, and... by the sound of it, it'll lock combat in its current form for the duration. It's going to be hard, most especially on the coders (redesign five and a half whole archetypes' worth of combat skills at once...) but I think something like this is really a necessity for the long term.

Looking forward to seeing what comes out of arena. Hope this won't affect story developments, though... I suspect it'll mean we won't see new zones for a bit? >_>

Acrune

Estarra said:

As many of some of you may know, those who came to the IRE Meet was given a sneak preview of a proposal for a possible combat overhaul. We met and discussed the pros and cons, what players liked and didn't like and what the goals are. Below is an abbreviated version of the proposal. (Details in the full proposal are currently under review based on discussions). 

Would full details be made available to us at some point, or are most/all of them intended to remain under wraps until the arena test roll-out? I am excited about the idea of simplification and I like what is there under pro's and feel a year is fair trade for it, but I'd be curious to see more detail before encouraging the expenditure of the time.

Also, out of curiosity, will you be picking up more coders for the duration of the project?