Delete land and reality! They are both so unnecessary.
Well, while we're at it, let's delete inquisition and trueheal as well and make toad an actual insta to where they die without needing to be stomped. :P
Who cares? I would love something more offensive and less power intensive than either. And toads tend to die anyhow if there's no friendly kisser nearby so what would be the point? Lol.
Anyways, my suggestions make reality more of a Tornado-on-crack, or Tornado-mixed-with-Land type effect. You solve the issue of being able to force people to slog through distorted wastes of arbitrary length, and the issue of punishing opponents for the act of regrouping. However, you're still left with a skill that rivals all other group splitting in the game, and is still probably at least a head (if not a head and shoulders) up.
I'd be all right with adding more terrains with Land to be honest. If you make it require "not water", can even take out the indoor restrictions. I could see that happening.
I'd also rather not completely rework Reality. I'd like to downgrade it first, see how it goes, then if it's still needed, maybe we can look into that rework. But yeah, Enyalida's idea is just something I'm playing around with if it ever comes to that.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Delete land and reality! They are both so unnecessary.
Well, while we're at it, let's delete inquisition and trueheal as well and make toad an actual insta to where they die without needing to be stomped. :P
Who cares? I would love something more offensive and less power intensive than either. And toads tend to die anyhow if there's no friendly kisser nearby so what would be the point? Lol.
You act like any celest envoy who touches trueheal or inquisition won't be chased out of the game with pitchforks and torches.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I see we have descended into petty off topic flags, despite being off topic already. I think this thread has run its course.
I thought Elanorwen was joking mostly but if we're trying to jump the shark into a debate about trueheal, inquisition and god knows what else, we can start a new thread. I think all points have been said and I didn't feel like posting a huge reply about how little I use the inqui line and so on.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Oh man no. We don't need a trueheal debate!
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
My pitchfork post was tongue in cheek about celest. Not about any balance concerns.
One, that demesne effects (in this case, except for mirage) work only in the immediate rooms surrounding the melder, so your map wouldn't have been obscured anywhere except for when standing one room away from Viynain. True, mirage covers the entire meld, turning it into a desert, but here's another thing to consider in that regard... the fight took place on Dramube. Turning rooms into desert wouldn't have helped much in that regard as almost all Dramube rooms look the same anyway. Additionally, things were probably not made better by the fact that Dramube rooms have effects similar to elemental planes or the inner sea/sea of despair where you get tossed around as you move anyway.
This is only true for the effects that tic every ten seconds. Map obscuring, wind/briar/fire walls, rubble, mirage, anything that is a persistent, static effect, will be active in the entire meld until the owner is killed, which strips -all- effects.
The fact that whatever battle you're talking about happened on Dramube doesn't really have any bearing on the discussion. Reality, and all other group separators, suck more when you're on Dramube. Domothing period sucks on Drambue. That's just a fact of life in Lusternia. No one is saying reality is overpowered due only to the fact it's sometimes used on Dramube.
Delete land and reality! They are both so unnecessary.
Well, while we're at it, let's delete inquisition and trueheal as well and make toad an actual insta to where they die without needing to be stomped. :P
And sap, right?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Delete land and reality! They are both so unnecessary.
Well, while we're at it, let's delete inquisition and trueheal as well and make toad an actual insta to where they die without needing to be stomped. :P
And sap, right?
Certainly okay with that. Give me a viable instakill without sap and get rid of it. Right this instant!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
One, that demesne effects (in this case, except for mirage) work only in the immediate rooms surrounding the melder, so your map wouldn't have been obscured anywhere except for when standing one room away from Viynain. True, mirage covers the entire meld, turning it into a desert, but here's another thing to consider in that regard... the fight took place on Dramube. Turning rooms into desert wouldn't have helped much in that regard as almost all Dramube rooms look the same anyway. Additionally, things were probably not made better by the fact that Dramube rooms have effects similar to elemental planes or the inner sea/sea of despair where you get tossed around as you move anyway.
This is only true for the effects that tic every ten seconds. Map obscuring, wind/briar/fire walls, rubble, mirage, anything that is a persistent, static effect, will be active in the entire meld until the owner is killed, which strips -all- effects.
The fact that whatever battle you're talking about happened on Dramube doesn't really have any bearing on the discussion. Reality, and all other group separators, suck more when you're on Dramube. Domothing period sucks on Drambue. That's just a fact of life in Lusternia. No one is saying reality is overpowered due only to the fact it's sometimes used on Dramube.
And I wasn't saying that it wasn't overpowered because it was Dramube. I was just saying that their regroup issues were likely exacerbated by it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Hah. And I thought I was one of the most aggressive posters on this forum. I stand corrected.
Just some of my own opinions:
Bias and logic are two entirely seperate things, yes. Just because an argument is motivated by bias doesn't automatically make it illogical. Just because an argument is logical doesn't automatically make it unbiased. However, just because they are seperate does not mean we can cut out either of them completely for purposes of effecting change. And this is all the more the case when we're dealing with something as complex and subjective as inter-class balance. This is one of the core reasons for needing discussion and compromise, and a system of envoys to check and balance each other. If this was not the case, we can delete the envoy system and let the admin decide what needs to be changed.
Pretty much anything can be rationalized to be "logical". This is the first, basic step of all arguments - if your argument holds no weight, then, well, it holds no weight. It is correct to claim that a logical argument is of the prime importance, as this is should be the basis upon which change is considered and effected. Bias, however, is important as well, because no matter how logical something is, it can be motivated by personal vendettas which can be counter-productive to improving the environment of the game, and this is something we do not always want.
On the other hand, bias is also pretty much always there. Everyone is motivated by personal gain, please don't try to deny this - if anyone is truly objective, they'd be sharing wine with Jesus or Buddha somewhere up there now. This means that we cannot simply dismiss everything out of hand due to bias - nothing would get done. Instead, it should be factored into considerations of what is or is not actually productive to improving the game, and obviously, the less bias an argument is encumbered with, the more incentive to agree with its goals.
For these reasons, admitting bias is, at times, an effective strategy for initiating change, because by doing so, you make it clear what is at stake for you, and what is at stake for others - who you are actually trying to put at a disadvantage. If your argument is sound enough to take this into consideration and still justify a change, then we have the best case scenario, what people go around calling "a neccesary change". Bias should not be something we amputate and carve away from an argument, it should be an integral part of it, that helps an argument's validity instead of being brushed aside and covered up. An argument does not become "unbiased" by ignoring its bias, an argument becomes
fairer when bias is considered and the argument adjusted to account for
it.
Just because Morbo made this thread in a fit of rage (or emotion, or whatever) doesn't magically make Reality an ability that is "perfectly" fine or balanced. But at the same time, we cannot discount the fact that this argument is motivated by what would appear to be personal interest, and substantiated by highly circumstantial evidence. To point this out is not a red herring any more than trying to ignore it completely.
I have nothing to add to whether I feel reality should be changed, unfortunately, because I am neither the user nor the victim, and any third-party observations I have had is already in the thread. So good luck. Having this thread closed down because you guys got too "toxic" is going to be much more counter-productive than actually admitting your respective starting positions in the debate.
Delete land and reality! They are both so unnecessary.
Well, while we're at it, let's delete inquisition and trueheal as well and make toad an actual insta to where they die without needing to be stomped. :P
And sap, right?
Certainly okay with that. Give me a viable instakill without sap and get rid of it. Right this instant!
Hey, I used to kill people with Crow Swoop as an ebonguard. Just saying.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Oh god, it's like a reunion of OP skills or something. NIGHT CHOKE.
RE Reality, the actual constructive discussion on possible changes:
I don't really mind it throwing people across the whole area. What I'd like to get rid of, though, is the chance to fling to Astral, or into aggressive smob rooms (let's limit this to the Ethereal and Cosmic smobs).
Yes to passive ticking instead of on-entry firing.
Comments
You act like any celest envoy who touches trueheal or inquisition won't be chased out of the game with pitchforks and torches.
The fact that whatever battle you're talking about happened on Dramube doesn't really have any bearing on the discussion. Reality, and all other group separators, suck more when you're on Dramube. Domothing period sucks on Drambue. That's just a fact of life in Lusternia. No one is saying reality is overpowered due only to the fact it's sometimes used on Dramube.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Just some of my own opinions:
Bias and logic are two entirely seperate things, yes. Just because an argument is motivated by bias doesn't automatically make it illogical. Just because an argument is logical doesn't automatically make it unbiased. However, just because they are seperate does not mean we can cut out either of them completely for purposes of effecting change. And this is all the more the case when we're dealing with something as complex and subjective as inter-class balance. This is one of the core reasons for needing discussion and compromise, and a system of envoys to check and balance each other. If this was not the case, we can delete the envoy system and let the admin decide what needs to be changed.
Pretty much anything can be rationalized to be "logical". This is the first, basic step of all arguments - if your argument holds no weight, then, well, it holds no weight. It is correct to claim that a logical argument is of the prime importance, as this is should be the basis upon which change is considered and effected. Bias, however, is important as well, because no matter how logical something is, it can be motivated by personal vendettas which can be counter-productive to improving the environment of the game, and this is something we do not always want.
On the other hand, bias is also pretty much always there. Everyone is motivated by personal gain, please don't try to deny this - if anyone is truly objective, they'd be sharing wine with Jesus or Buddha somewhere up there now. This means that we cannot simply dismiss everything out of hand due to bias - nothing would get done. Instead, it should be factored into considerations of what is or is not actually productive to improving the game, and obviously, the less bias an argument is encumbered with, the more incentive to agree with its goals.
For these reasons, admitting bias is, at times, an effective strategy for initiating change, because by doing so, you make it clear what is at stake for you, and what is at stake for others - who you are actually trying to put at a disadvantage. If your argument is sound enough to take this into consideration and still justify a change, then we have the best case scenario, what people go around calling "a neccesary change". Bias should not be something we amputate and carve away from an argument, it should be an integral part of it, that helps an argument's validity instead of being brushed aside and covered up. An argument does not become "unbiased" by ignoring its bias, an argument becomes fairer when bias is considered and the argument adjusted to account for it.
Just because Morbo made this thread in a fit of rage (or emotion, or whatever) doesn't magically make Reality an ability that is "perfectly" fine or balanced. But at the same time, we cannot discount the fact that this argument is motivated by what would appear to be personal interest, and substantiated by highly circumstantial evidence. To point this out is not a red herring any more than trying to ignore it completely.
I have nothing to add to whether I feel reality should be changed, unfortunately, because I am neither the user nor the victim, and any third-party observations I have had is already in the thread. So good luck. Having this thread closed down because you guys got too "toxic" is going to be much more counter-productive than actually admitting your respective starting positions in the debate.