Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Frankly, if one person is allowed to walk into the bulk of your group, one that is known to do this tactic repeatedly, the onus isn't on the skill for your group getting destroyed. It's on the group for poor foresight and planning. Group seperation and movement is not a new thing. It's existed forever, and people have created reflexes and counters for beckon, wisp, chainyank, scissor, squall, etc. This skill is effective, and perhaps the degree of its effect is being downplayed. However to degree to which it can be prevented is also being downplayed. A few days ago, Shuyin died attempting to do it, so it's quite obviously possible to prevent it. Personally I think it's a little odd it's not prevented by distort (and squall aka super gust is) and probably should be, but this skill is not a "win" button. It does not tilt the fight for one side so severely. Not any more than say, Magnagora vs Hallifax in a beckon fight.
If we're going with the "it moves you too far" argument, I'm waiting for the uproar about pathtwist.
The fact that it moves you further than one room makes reality a more effective group separator due to the effects that can be used alongside it. A pyromancer meld prevents you from seeing the map and changes all the room names to the same thing. You cannot rejoin the group quickly if you get flung to the meld. Even if you don't, you might have to walk through it to find the group, or the group itself might be inside the meld. This is vastly superior to being moved one room away.
@Shuyin You can complain about blackout + chestpain + stun + aeon + pfifth when two people from the same organization can bring you to that state with only one active ability and a meld that doesn't even have to tic effects. If you think it's a problem, then you are of course free to envoy a solution. Other people disagreeing has nothing do with reality + other effects being a problem. You're trying to divert attention away from the actual discussion by making statements that are inherently ridiculous, but have no real bearing on the conversation. We -never- consider skills in a void when we envoy. You know that, and you're not fooling me by pretending you don't.
@Estarra You say that it's not an automatic rejection, but that is definitely not the atmosphere I have experienced. There are indeed things that will get your report rejected out of hand. I have seen it happen.
Putting increased scrutiny on a report that comes from a different guild makes no sense. It's either a balance concern or it's not, and it's the envoys job to bring those to your attention. If it's brought up by someone who's frustrated by having to face it all the time, does that make it any less of a concern? If it is a case of them simply crying nerf at something they don't like, then it will be apparent through the comments and envoy discussion, just like with any other report, no matter the source. If they engage in diversionary tactics to move discussion away from valid points, or make inflammatory statements to make it seem like others are being unreasonable, then they are a bad envoy and should be removed.
I don't like any skill that tosses me to a different plane or to Astral, this includes Raziela and anything else that does it, regardless of the source.
And about envoys, I mentioned in the other discussion that my only problem with the envoy system is the Admin's perception that its important to where the report came from before it considers things based on the report.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Shuyin was pointing out that if your side wants to cherry pick scenarios and skills like reality and a demesne, so can he. I think if we are playing mix and match op scenarios, it's going to get ridiculous. If we are saying it moves too many rooms away, well seren has a skill that does the same...to enemies only. And a demesne is involved without mix and matching skills. So nerf both and be fair about it if that is the actual non partisan complaint.
Pathtwist also requires a meld, which can be problematic in a combat situation (druid is fighting other melders, etc.). Reality, however, can be done in 1 move, making it much more useful in combat than pathtwist.
If it's broken, break it some more.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
It's also enemies only and shield does not stop it. We can draw as many lines in the sand as we want, the point is the skill isn't as wildly op as it's being made out to be or that there aren't equally powerful skills out there already.
Celina: of course Shuyin will 'occasionally die' doing it. Just like Veyrzhul occasionally dies in fights when using his op insta that everyone (myself included) howls about. Killing the person using a controversial ability is not some new concept nor is it in any way an answer to a problem. Reality needs addressing and when it was first revealed, I had many conversations with various players about it (including the current people benefiting from it) and its potential in group battles. Imagine multiple people using it.
You hint at some notion of it being downplayed as if it isn't terribly apparent. It is being downplayed. It is very effective against groups in a game where group cohesion is so necessary to maintain momentum in battles. These situations cannot play out solo; you need to keep your group together. We have beckon, fearaura, squall, scissor, gust and I need not explain once again how these things are far more manageable and can be countered. Chaindrag still remains a nuisance IMO but that's for another day!
I saw a draft report for reality that is going up soon so that's good. It's just not a necessary ability and pretty much overkill.
Celina hit the nail on the head when she said that the only reason why I brought up chestain + aeon + stun + eventru is to highlight the idea that if you're going to cherrypick a situation where reality destroys you, I can also cherrypick a variety of other situations where other skills can destroy us or cherrypick a mixture of skills that can/will counter your mix. If you're going to point out how reality and a pyro meld is OP, then it is equally valid to point out how a bunch other skills together counters that OP skill. It is literally impossible to balance a mix of skills together. We can try, but it's never gonna happen.
Again, a lot of people are downplaying the drawbacks. There are in fact drawbacks to it, it's not like they don't exist.
Again, I already have a report for it. The report will bring it down to the level of pathtwist and springtraps. You're all free to read it.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I'm all for making summon and forced movement skills to be more manageable( see: my latest report), they just need to be treated fairly rather than across the aisle finger pointing and awkward double standard rules.
I can't understand why this has suddenly become an issue for an ability Shuyin's utilised for some time. The abilities people list with reality are also its drawbacks, a scatter that hits indiscriminately and with complete random nature as to where everyone ends up.
Skills shouldn't be balanced on the stars aligning and perfect cherry pick scenarios. That said Shuyin putting a report in to adjust this is a positive step forward, if only certain other envoys would follow suit regarding other notoriously complained about skills.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Please specify the numerous drawbacks, Morkarion. As far as I'm aware the only real drawback to using it as you have is that you might die...which is hardly a deterrent and more of a calculated and worthwhile risk considering the possible outcome. That it impacts allies means nothing with how it's being used unless you pull a move like Iytha (Gaudi-version) did when she used it with all her allies in the room and flung most of them to Astral.
This isn't some new thing to be cherry picked over. I had issues with reality when it was first developed. There are issues with both researchers and illuminati (and monks and bards) I took a good year and some odd months off from playing and while you guys want to claim that concerns over the ability arose due to ic politics, it's not and no matter how many times you try to play the 'omg they're whining' card, no one is buying it.
So the fact you can't actively use it in a room with your allies in unlike every other scatter/crowd control ability that gets frequently used isn't considered a drawback?
Of course you aren't going to reality on top of your own allies, but at the same time you aren't given a choice, doing so runs the risk of catastrophic backfire. Sure you can make adjustments to it, but in the end it's a limited use ability due to zero target control other than the room you're in, so it's going to do things other abilities of that nature can't purely for the sake of balance, otherwise what would be the point?
It'd just end up being another clone ability with zero flavour to it at best, and at worst an inferior skill that sits in the pile of skills that isn't utilised.
And you can claim whatever you like, but there's suddenly a large influx of complaining now that wasn't there two to three months ago, and people are cherry picking. You list the absolute worst case scenario in a stars align situation and try to pass it off as the status quo.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Whether the complaining was there three months ago or not has nothing to do with the validity of arguments presented. This is of course, ignoring the fact that reality has been complained about for ages by the parties that had to deal with it.
Scissor and reality should be comparable, and as with squall, hitting allies can be a good thing. The fact you control when it is used heavily favors it to ONLY be useful, not harmful. Losing a fight? Why not use it. Winning the fight? You wont bother.
Broken skills need fixin. Arguments contrary to that are wrong. That is why it is "broken" not "overly flavorful" when described.
Shuyin is already envoying this as a note, so not sure why its been debatey.
Why are we talking about reality and pathtwist? They aren't even the same category of skill, and work fundamentally different. We can go into how exactly pathtwist works and the ups and downs of it if you want, but without a serious discussion, let's not assume things about it with little basis, please. This is not a difference that is merely a 'line drawn in the sand', it really is a very different skill that works in a very different manner to achieve very different goals. On the other hand, Shamanism Land trance is highly parallel to Reality.
The big thing that both of these skills do is potentially force you to manually walk back - alone- to your group through an arbitrary number of rooms and any defenses in those rooms. For Land trance, I feel this is balanced because the only place that both Land and Distort are compatible is during an Ethereal Glomdoring/Serenwilde raid, a very specific scenario that probably calls for home-field advantage. That, on top of it locking the user out of any other present trance ability for a minute (30 seconds before using land, 30 after to switch to something else).
The added thing that Reality does is punish the disrupted group for trying to regroup. You can always attempt to regroup at a new location, but that will only lead to that location being reality-d, and so on. This means that in addition to those split having to make the dangerous trek back to their group (as above mentioned), there is a chance that they will be flung away yet again! In addition to that, this feature automatically buffs all other splitting techniques we know, because it adds that punishing feature to them. If you get radded/squalled/chainyanked/whirlwinded/landed/whatever'd out of the room, and escape back to your original group, you have to check against reality again! This is the really potent and scary part of this skill, a bit I think goes unsaid.
The easiest fix to this would be to make it so that any time distort is hindering someone, reality will not hit them. This would mean that it no longer is the only skill in domoth battles that forces those hit to walk through shrine/demesne sans group.
I can't understand why this has suddenly become an issue for an ability Shuyin's utilised for some time. The abilities people list with reality are also its drawbacks, a scatter that hits indiscriminately and with complete random nature as to where everyone ends up.
Skills shouldn't be balanced on the stars aligning and perfect cherry pick scenarios. That said Shuyin putting a report in to adjust this is a positive step forward, if only certain other envoys would follow suit regarding other notoriously complained about skills.
Because suddenly a new org is experiencing it.
Speaking from prior experience, yes, reality can be horrendous. It's also the best one-button smob raid breaker, and hey, you can drop it in rooms ahead of time to catch them before they gpent or gank you, and they can't teleport to regroup in distort!
Instances like the one above are why I don't think making Reality respect distort will do what you guys want it to,
That's because in "defender" situations, Reality will still work. That's how it's been for the past year+. If you're the aggressor, reality's gonna smack you in the face anyway. If your shrine goes down and ours goes up, Reality's still there staring at you.
P.S. The only reason the whining card is pulled was because it was whining that started this thread to begin with.
Well as Morbo hasn't even been commenting in this thread much and even started a new one to focus on another point, I think you can give the whining thing a rest.
In line with previous reports/requests, make Reality not force into OR out of smob rooms. We tried to fix the 1 man anti-raid previously with things like scissor and choke not working in smob rooms, reality should properly respect that. While its more flavorful that it ignores smobs and distort, we want balance more than we wait flavor.
I do not mean this in a mean way, I am going to lay out two things violated that we tried to do before though and what is in violation since then:
- No one person should be able to stop or kill smob raids. (Reality) - Dodge is bad, we cut back all non acro forms of it. (Foresight, which is now far stronger than dodge)
I am sure there are more, but those are the first two things in mind.
Reality and distort is a tougher issue, remember distort now only means ENEMIES cannot move people who arent enemied. Allied people can still move others. Reality in enemy territory would move no one in theory, while reality in allied territory can move everyone (the caster is allied, he can still move people). I would stick with fixing smobs, and really, being close to smobs since reality outside a smob will still likely kill the raid and basically impossible to get around assuming the other guys have a group to kill regroupers.
Hopefully that is all readable.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
1) Timing of an argument does actually matter, and can reflect the validity of an argument. Saying otherwise is ridiculous. Context of an argument, especially a call for a nerf, is always important. Stop acting like no one here is aware of why this thread was created, or why people are suddenly commenting about it beyond the dark and discontent corners of ooc clans and facebook. I think it's really silly that anyone in this thread would act like "I died to such and such, nerf it now," isn't a common event, and one deserving of scrutiny.
2) Pathtwist was the closest thing that I could recall. I hadn't seen land in ages and had subsequently forgotten about it. It's still comparable, more so than the strange squall and scissorkick arguments being brought up, especially considering so much of the argument is being based off of how far reality moves you. Land is a better comparison though, and I recall it being used to great effect in domoth fights and managed to not spawn its own thread.
3) Reality is really powerful. There is not a single person here disputing that. Reality also has major draw backs, that you guys are purposefully glossing over. It affects allies. The original cast, the lingering room effect, everything that affects enemies affects allies on an equal scale. The only difference is that caster discretion can make or break the skill. Last domoth I was flung to a sealed off part of muckle and was stuck out of the fight for a solid while. It's an actual, tangible draw back. It'll be easier to balance the skill from both sides if we can stop acting like it's some sort of super scissorkick to astral.
4)Was there an smob raid that I missed? Making a mountain out of a future molehill on this one. I, personally, don't see how deploying reality in an smob room full of your allies, who will need to run and heal and are most likely being moved out of the room, is anything but intentional suicide...but I guess that ties back in to the whole "if we don't say it hits allies, maybe they won't notice," bit. BUT that being said, it probably should not work in smob rooms for no other reason than consistency (assuming squall and scissor and land and etc don't, I am not positive).
5) Make distort stop reality. Regardless of any discussion, I think this should just be done. For consistency's sake. I hate exceptions.
6) Just for arguments sake, the onus is not on Shuyin and reality when the non reality side can't coordinate well enough on an individual basis to return to a room or regroup. I see it in many fights, reality or not, your leaders like Vey and Kelly go gung ho rambo hero mode and the group scatters. I'll tell you from experience, Glom (and Gaudi by extension, Mag I don't know about...the random maglings always get lost and follow me for some reason) is very good at rapid regrouping. Celest is not. So while reality may very well be "too powerful," depending on your perspective, group splitting is not inherently game winning or game breaking.
I really hope that regardless of what happens here, a lot of you guys should read point 1 over and over until it sticks in your head.
Like it or not, context does play a huge factor in how your arguments are received.
If you don't want your argument to be perceived as whining, maybe you should consider the timing of your forum threads, your posting habits, and your e-reputation as a whole.
As far as ideas for what to do about Reality: I already wrote something up. I appreciate the effort, but I got it already.
On a happier note, I am quite proud of team GG for their pro regrouping skills. Their group combat experience really shines during these domoths. Go you.
Comments
Frankly, if one person is allowed to walk into the bulk of your group, one that is known to do this tactic repeatedly, the onus isn't on the skill for your group getting destroyed. It's on the group for poor foresight and planning. Group seperation and movement is not a new thing. It's existed forever, and people have created reflexes and counters for beckon, wisp, chainyank, scissor, squall, etc. This skill is effective, and perhaps the degree of its effect is being downplayed. However to degree to which it can be prevented is also being downplayed. A few days ago, Shuyin died attempting to do it, so it's quite obviously possible to prevent it. Personally I think it's a little odd it's not prevented by distort (and squall aka super gust is) and probably should be, but this skill is not a "win" button. It does not tilt the fight for one side so severely. Not any more than say, Magnagora vs Hallifax in a beckon fight.
If we're going with the "it moves you too far" argument, I'm waiting for the uproar about pathtwist.
@Shuyin You can complain about blackout + chestpain + stun + aeon + pfifth when two people from the same organization can bring you to that state with only one active ability and a meld that doesn't even have to tic effects. If you think it's a problem, then you are of course free to envoy a solution. Other people disagreeing has nothing do with reality + other effects being a problem. You're trying to divert attention away from the actual discussion by making statements that are inherently ridiculous, but have no real bearing on the conversation. We -never- consider skills in a void when we envoy. You know that, and you're not fooling me by pretending you don't.
@Estarra You say that it's not an automatic rejection, but that is definitely not the atmosphere I have experienced. There are indeed things that will get your report rejected out of hand. I have seen it happen.
Putting increased scrutiny on a report that comes from a different guild makes no sense. It's either a balance concern or it's not, and it's the envoys job to bring those to your attention. If it's brought up by someone who's frustrated by having to face it all the time, does that make it any less of a concern? If it is a case of them simply crying nerf at something they don't like, then it will be apparent through the comments and envoy discussion, just like with any other report, no matter the source. If they engage in diversionary tactics to move discussion away from valid points, or make inflammatory statements to make it seem like others are being unreasonable, then they are a bad envoy and should be removed.
You hint at some notion of it being downplayed as if it isn't terribly apparent. It is being downplayed. It is very effective against groups in a game where group cohesion is so necessary to maintain momentum in battles. These situations cannot play out solo; you need to keep your group together. We have beckon, fearaura, squall, scissor, gust and I need not explain once again how these things are far more manageable and can be countered. Chaindrag still remains a nuisance IMO but that's for another day!
I saw a draft report for reality that is going up soon so that's good. It's just not a necessary ability and pretty much overkill.
Skills shouldn't be balanced on the stars aligning and perfect cherry pick scenarios. That said Shuyin putting a report in to adjust this is a positive step forward, if only certain other envoys would follow suit regarding other notoriously complained about skills.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Signature!
This isn't some new thing to be cherry picked over. I had issues with reality when it was first developed. There are issues with both researchers and illuminati (and monks and bards) I took a good year and some odd months off from playing and while you guys want to claim that concerns over the ability arose due to ic politics, it's not and no matter how many times you try to play the 'omg they're whining' card, no one is buying it.
Done.
:bz
Of course you aren't going to reality on top of your own allies, but at the same time you aren't given a choice, doing so runs the risk of catastrophic backfire. Sure you can make adjustments to it, but in the end it's a limited use ability due to zero target control other than the room you're in, so it's going to do things other abilities of that nature can't purely for the sake of balance, otherwise what would be the point?
And you can claim whatever you like, but there's suddenly a large influx of complaining now that wasn't there two to three months ago, and people are cherry picking. You list the absolute worst case scenario in a stars align situation and try to pass it off as the status quo.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Broken skills need fixin. Arguments contrary to that are wrong. That is why it is "broken" not "overly flavorful" when described.
Shuyin is already envoying this as a note, so not sure why its been debatey.
I do not mean this in a mean way, I am going to lay out two things violated that we tried to do before though and what is in violation since then:
- No one person should be able to stop or kill smob raids. (Reality)
- Dodge is bad, we cut back all non acro forms of it. (Foresight, which is now far stronger than dodge)
I am sure there are more, but those are the first two things in mind.
Reality and distort is a tougher issue, remember distort now only means ENEMIES cannot move people who arent enemied. Allied people can still move others. Reality in enemy territory would move no one in theory, while reality in allied territory can move everyone (the caster is allied, he can still move people). I would stick with fixing smobs, and really, being close to smobs since reality outside a smob will still likely kill the raid and basically impossible to get around assuming the other guys have a group to kill regroupers.
Hopefully that is all readable.
The other side already do!