Daily credits as an incentive are a great thing. They get people the ability to work for stuff in-game, make progress towards goals, etc.
I think incentives like this can be a good thing generally, however I didn't realise daily credits were so directly intended to encourage the player to log in every day for as close as possible to two hours doing a very specific set of labour tasks, or else miss out on that reward. 'Working for stuff' and hitting goal targets aren't usually behaviours I associate with healthy play.
I just find it a bit of weird design choice from IRE. Maybe I'll raise it for discussion in a broader game forum and see if I'm the outlier on that!
Dailies are a pretty common thing in most MMOs now, no? They generally all seem to be built around getting the player to regularly log on and do tasks for a period of time (where the time period varies).
@Xenthos - Absolutely, but I struggle to think of many examples where the average time is around two hours of your day. Or where the rewards are so closely tied to significant cash shop value (US$10 or so per day).
Admittedly, maybe I'm just not across this as much in other games, and it's more common than I think.
I really think there should be a daily credit tick rewarded for submitting a design or a book or similar, though it should be limited to once a day, so the person would still have to do lots of other things if they wanted to hit their cap.
I also think Divines/ephs/other administrative people should have the ability to give out a daily credit tick for meaningful roleplay that they're part of or observe. I know that this wouldn't really be a reliable or consistent way for people to earn them, but I really can't think of a better way to reward roleplay.
I'm not sure it's good for someone to do the same set of quests every day for their credits, especially when with some quests that can lock people out from having the chance to do them. Maybe have quests give reduced rewards if they're in the last x number of quests you've completed, or if you've done it in the last x number of days.
I also agree with Xenthos that it's not really the best idea to balance everything around outlier players, because the resulting system could be very harsh on people with fewer artifacts, scripts, and experience.
I had to think about your idea re: roleplay rewards for a bit, Kali. At first glance it seems like a good idea. But... what happens when admin play times do not align with mortal ones? What if one org has more active ephs/gods than another and so gives out more rewards? What if one's standards for rewardable RP is more lax than another's? I am concerned that it would start with complaints that some RP is deemed lesser than others, and descend into accusations of bias.
Can you think of a way to do this that is more 'consistent' (as you put it)?
I guess I just don't get the rationale for everyone taking two hours - it seems there is no progression in the game. The better you do, the more of a grind we will make it for you. No point in buying artefacts, we will just make quests take longer. I don't think this is replicated in other IRE free to play game so why dump it on us?
This ISN'T the stated goal. The stated goal is not for everyone to take 2 hours, but for anyone to take 2 hours. As In, if the person with xp rank 1 and every single bashing artifact in a bashing optimized class (Zarakaido Monk?) takes 2 hours the speed at which they gain their credits sets the pace for everyone.
So basically your personal daily credits aren't a PvE activity, you're in direct competition with the top tier of people at your level, competing with people who have chunked out credits for bashing and utility artifacts.
EDIT: And to further specify, it doesn't encourage people to be participating in the game for 2 hours a day but to be grinding (aka, NOT INTERACTING WITH OTHER PLAYERS) 2 hours a day. Gag.
I guess I just don't get the rationale for everyone taking two hours - it seems there is no progression in the game. The better you do, the more of a grind we will make it for you. No point in buying artefacts, we will just make quests take longer. I don't think this is replicated in other IRE free to play game so why dump it on us?
This ISN'T the stated goal. The stated goal is not for everyone to take 2 hours, but for anyone to take 2 hours. As In, if the person with xp rank 1 and every single bashing artifact in a bashing optimized class (Zarakaido Monk?) takes 2 hours the speed at which they gain their credits sets the pace for everyone.
So basically your personal daily credits aren't a PvE activity, you're in direct competition with the top tier of people at your level, competing with people who have chunked out credits for bashing and utility artifacts.
EDIT: And to further specify, it doesn't encourage people to be participating in the game for 2 hours a day but to be grinding (aka, NOT INTERACTING WITH OTHER PLAYERS) 2 hours a day. Gag.
It is the stated goal though. Orael said a bit earlier in the thread:
What it means is that if 3 quests are getting your 20 daily credits in 30-40 minutes, we need to change those ratings to reduce their credit rewards. The goal is to get people logged in and playing for 2 hours. We've been pretty open about this two-hour requirement from the beginning.
I don't know that I'm a fan of punishing people for being good at what they do. If Xenthos can get his 2 hour allotment of credits in 40 minutes, so be it. He's gonna be logged in for those two hours anyway.
Her voice firm and commanding, Terentia, the Even Bladed says to you, "You have kept your oath to Me, Parhelion. You have sworn to maintain Justice in these troubled times."
Yet if a boon be granted me, unworthy as I am, let it be for a steady hand with a clear eye and a fury most inflaming.
No, there's a substantial [if subtle rhetorically] difference in what Orael actually said (even in that quote) and what you're presenting. The position is evidently that If SOMEONE is able to do three quests in 30 minutes and get 20 credits, those person's credits won't be docked... that quest will be reduced in effectiveness for everyone. That's why the point total for demigod bashing is so punishing, it's not a number pulled out of thin air: it's a fair reduction for the very highest tier and that's setting the pace for everyone else.
Consider what Orael said in that part you just quoted, using the following scenario:
If there's a quest with lots of travel and clears that takes you an hour to do and generates 10 credits for you. That's on par with the 2 hour speed, if you do a second similar quest you're done! If Xenthos blazes into a quest with pyramid puzzles, tracking, a quest guide, and the ability to bash it out 2 times as fast as you and overall completes the quest in 30 minutes for 10 credits that's too fast! So the quest has its credits lowered from 10 credits to 5 credits. Now what took you an hour for 10 credits takes you an hour for 5 credits. Your daily credit grind just doubled in length.
If ANYONE can get their credits faster, the rules to fix that are applied to EVERYONE. The fastest person to complete that quest or bash out an area is setting par. Because the minimum time is 2 hours.
I don't know that I'm a fan of punishing people for being good at what they do. If Xenthos can get his 2 hour allotment of credits in 40 minutes, so be it. He's gonna be logged in for those two hours anyway.
I know I'm 100% the opposite of a fan of punishing everyone else for other people being good at what they do. If Xenthos can get is 2 hour allotment, so be it: let's not make said allotment twice as hard for him and everyone else to compensate.
Heck, I get MY allotment done in about that time, though I haven't timed it. I just totally ignore the credits tick mechanic because it's already in no way calibrated for a player like me.
I feel like it would be a better idea for dailycredits to reward immersion in the game - interacting with other players, helping newbies, exploring areas/doing new quests, than have the goal be for players to spend a minimum time logged in doing things that can (sometimes) feel like a chore.
You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
I thought it was intentional that as bashing/influencing for ticks gets harder and harder, you're intended to start exploring and finding quests you can do to cut down the time it takes for you to do your daily credits, but that it just wasn't well signposted that this was the direction. Was drafting helps to that effect, in fact!
Is the idea to actually have players engage with the game for longer and get immersed, or is it to push bodies to be logged in so that mudconnector stats for active players go up?
Is the idea to actually have players engage with the game for longer and get immersed, or is it to push bodies to be logged in so that mudconnector stats for active players go up?
I don't think currency reward systems like this can or should be linked to immersion.
It would be absurd if this system is calibrated so that a whale who’s pumped untold time and energy and money into the game must take two hours to earn 20cr. Heck, let the ticks accrue for various activities as they stand now, let the most experienced and kitted out players finish their activities in 40 minutes, and then award the 20 credits after two hours of time logged in outside a manse if that time goal is so important.
Is the idea to actually have players engage with the game for longer and get immersed, or is it to push bodies to be logged in so that mudconnector stats for active players go up?
I don't think currency reward systems like this can or should be linked to immersion.
I'm fairly sure we agree on this. I mostly used "immersion" to follow up on what @Coraline posted when what I really was talking about is engagement with the game.
It doesn't make sense to, when designing participation rewards like this, tie your own hands with a limited idea of what would be "immersive" in the sense of "consistent with the game lore to your character". It's a player-facing mechanic, not a character-facing one. However, it's generally ideal to not disrupt immersion and I'm pretty certain one of the goals of pushing people to be logged on longer is that they'll engage with the game and continue playing into the future.
I feel like there needs to also be consideration for what's an unreasonably long amount of time?
If everything is harder because people with "perfect" class choices and full artifact kits for their activities then what's that actually look like for the true newbie with a "sub-par" class choice who's been bashed up to demigod but has only been getting credits from dailies and other in-game rewards?
IJS, I went bashing for 2 hours with Allie and Nelras on Astral and got 3000 points between 3 demigods with gnomeweapons and 10-13 damage buffs, crits, etc. We're not top tier by any means, but it should be reasonable to expect if the goal is "get 20 credits for playing for 2 hours" then our group should have had a reasonable shot at doing it.
But no, I got 16 credits.
Yeah, I can do a quest in 5 minutes to get the last few credits, but now I don't want to talk about it because it will get taken away.
Yeah, I can do a quest in 5 minutes to get the last few credits, but now I don't want to talk about it because it will get taken away.
So far the main takeaway I have from this thread is this...
I am hoping that it is just a break in communication/understanding, because if the game is going to be balanced to me, I can't justify screwing over everyone else...really hoping that we are misreading this.
Yeah, I can do a quest in 5 minutes to get the last few credits, but now I don't want to talk about it because it will get taken away.
So far the main takeaway I have from this thread is this...
I am hoping that it is just a break in communication/understanding, because if the game is going to be balanced to me, I can't justify screwing over everyone else...really hoping that we are misreading this.
Well also, if there's a case where some combination of artifacts and skills you don't have enables someone else to beat you in an activity then that might also be nerfed?
Telling someone where you are does not constitute an invitation.
But to the topic, I think I've given some workable solutions (or starting points).
1. If you want novices to be earning their dailies through particular activities, award them more credits than demis for comm quests, bards/pilgrims/scholars/power, and whatever else you consider appropriate. Incentivize the different groups to turn their efforts towards the activities you think they should be focusing on.
2. If the goal is to keep people logged in for two hours, make the full 20 credit reward contingent on their being logged in for two hours. Say Ilthilior manages to do Xion and get a hunting tick in half an hour because he's got it down to a science, mete out 5 credits every half hour he stays logged in for him to claim the full reward for his efforts. If he'd already put in the time RPing with guild novices, then he gets the credits upon completing the tasks as usual.
I don't think I've done a good job communicating the intentions and the goals, so I'm going to try again.
We want everyone to be able to complete things in about two hours and be engaged in the game for about two hours to get their 20 daily credits. If some people can knock it out a little faster, cool, I'm not going to go around and nerf everything because so and so finished things in 1:59. If some people take a little longer, fine, I'm not going to reduce and make adjustments because so and so took 2:01 to finish it.
2 hours is the baseline that we're aiming for. If someone is doing everything in an hour because they are finishing a quest worth 11 credits in 10 mins then that's something we need to look into to see if it's worth that rating. I don't believe there is a quest that's going to shave off 50 mins because you're a whale with investments (because 11 credits should ideally be ~1 hour). I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to look at.
I'm willing to improve things and make things such as influencing, aetherhunting, potentially plays etc, more worthwhile to do for daily credits. I'm all ears for other ideas that get people playing and involved. Someone here suggested making worldgames that admin run worth a credit tick if you participate during that event that's another option.
The intent isn't to just get numbers and stats so we can brag on some random website about how cool we are. The intent is to get people involved and playing and participating. Some people like hunting and influencing, others like questing. If there are other ideas out there, we can look into that, but again, they need to be something that we can track and reward sanely without it being abused. I'll talk things over with Ianir and other admin and see if we can come up with some things. Influence/aetherhunting adjustments shouldn't be too hard but implementing anything new won't be quick or done any time soon (we've got other stuff on our plate) but it's something we can keep in mind when we get a chance to work at it.
I don't believe there is a quest that's going to shave off 50 mins because you're a whale with investments (because 11 credits should ideally be ~1 hour). I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to look at.
Why don't you believe it?
Edit: Sorry, on phone, did not mean to post yet. Editing with more info.
Edit: Ok. We have a quest that takes about 40 kepherans (or more merians/elfen, I don't think there are enough elfen). Also need 10 mammoths, 5 fruits (cannot be fruit comms, actual fruits). Have you tried killing 40 kephs with physical damage? I sit there staring with incredulity while some monk tries to kill a bug. Meanwhile, a poison-tuned wonderwand annihilates them. A fire gnomeweapon would probably level them too.
Mammoths? Firewand, icewynd mountains, done.
Fruit? Activate the Clarramore curio set, scarecrow hat and 13/13 begging knocks those powderfruits out fast.
Pack one snowball, and good to go. Travel time is essentially nil with curios, pathfinding boots, etc. Even getting there starts with a Shallach curio set which ends up right near the entrance, and a booklet point to scoot right back.
I tried to talk Kyalrhin into doing it (you know, the person who has been doing all the quests she can) and it takes too long for her due to all the running and gathering that it is not worth it compared to her other options.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I don't think I've done a good job communicating the intentions and the goals, so I'm going to try again.
We want everyone to be able to complete things in about two hours and be engaged in the game for about two hours to get their 20 daily credits... The intent is to get people involved and playing and participating. Some people like hunting and influencing, others like questing.
Yet pretty much all of the rewards come from doing things that aren't engaging and encourage people not to interact with each other. If all I've got is a few hours a day to play, I can either spend them all grinding (not fun) and get credits, or actually playing the game with other players, and get nothing. Engagement is punished.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I still vehemently disagree that about 2 hours of forced tasks per day to get your $10 worth of game value is a reasonable and ethical approach.
As others have said more eloquently, of course effort-to-reward ratio shouldn't be balanced around the massively artied max level player. Of course a wide variety of activities should be equally rewarding.
But the fundamental assumption that the game mechanics should reinforce two hours of heavily focused online gameplay every day, seven days a week or else you miss out on some of the capped rewards is, in my opinion, deeply flawed.
Why couldn't I choose to contribute to the game in a more tangible financial way, so I can opt out of having to grind quite as regularly (or at all), as long as I engage in the game on my own terms? And I seriously doubt hours per day of already rewarding, resource consuming solo questing/bashing/influencing is as beneficial to the health of the game as remaining profitable, surely. Edit: To be fair - this doesn’t solve the underlying issue with the reinforcement mechanics, it’s just a way I could opt out of them!
Comments
I just find it a bit of weird design choice from IRE. Maybe I'll raise it for discussion in a broader game forum and see if I'm the outlier on that!
Admittedly, maybe I'm just not across this as much in other games, and it's more common than I think.
I really think there should be a daily credit tick rewarded for submitting a design or a book or similar, though it should be limited to once a day, so the person would still have to do lots of other things if they wanted to hit their cap.
I also think Divines/ephs/other administrative people should have the ability to give out a daily credit tick for meaningful roleplay that they're part of or observe. I know that this wouldn't really be a reliable or consistent way for people to earn them, but I really can't think of a better way to reward roleplay.
I'm not sure it's good for someone to do the same set of quests every day for their credits, especially when with some quests that can lock people out from having the chance to do them. Maybe have quests give reduced rewards if they're in the last x number of quests you've completed, or if you've done it in the last x number of days.
I also agree with Xenthos that it's not really the best idea to balance everything around outlier players, because the resulting system could be very harsh on people with fewer artifacts, scripts, and experience.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
So basically your personal daily credits aren't a PvE activity, you're in direct competition with the top tier of people at your level, competing with people who have chunked out credits for bashing and utility artifacts.
EDIT: And to further specify, it doesn't encourage people to be participating in the game for 2 hours a day but to be grinding (aka, NOT INTERACTING WITH OTHER PLAYERS) 2 hours a day. Gag.
It is the stated goal though. Orael said a bit earlier in the thread:
What it means is that if 3 quests are getting your 20 daily credits in 30-40 minutes, we need to change those ratings to reduce their credit rewards. The goal is to get people logged in and playing for 2 hours. We've been pretty open about this two-hour requirement from the beginning.
If ANYONE can get their credits faster, the rules to fix that are applied to EVERYONE. The fastest person to complete that quest or bash out an area is setting par. Because the minimum time is 2 hours.
Heck, I get MY allotment done in about that time, though I haven't timed it. I just totally ignore the credits tick mechanic because it's already in no way calibrated for a player like me.
Is the idea to actually have players engage with the game for longer and get immersed, or is it to push bodies to be logged in so that mudconnector stats for active players go up?
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
It doesn't make sense to, when designing participation rewards like this, tie your own hands with a limited idea of what would be "immersive" in the sense of "consistent with the game lore to your character". It's a player-facing mechanic, not a character-facing one. However, it's generally ideal to not disrupt immersion and I'm pretty certain one of the goals of pushing people to be logged on longer is that they'll engage with the game and continue playing into the future.
If everything is harder because people with "perfect" class choices and full artifact kits for their activities then what's that actually look like for the true newbie with a "sub-par" class choice who's been bashed up to demigod but has only been getting credits from dailies and other in-game rewards?
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
But to the topic, I think I've given some workable solutions (or starting points).
1. If you want novices to be earning their dailies through particular activities, award them more credits than demis for comm quests, bards/pilgrims/scholars/power, and whatever else you consider appropriate. Incentivize the different groups to turn their efforts towards the activities you think they should be focusing on.
2. If the goal is to keep people logged in for two hours, make the full 20 credit reward contingent on their being logged in for two hours. Say Ilthilior manages to do Xion and get a hunting tick in half an hour because he's got it down to a science, mete out 5 credits every half hour he stays logged in for him to claim the full reward for his efforts. If he'd already put in the time RPing with guild novices, then he gets the credits upon completing the tasks as usual.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
We want everyone to be able to complete things in about two hours and be engaged in the game for about two hours to get their 20 daily credits. If some people can knock it out a little faster, cool, I'm not going to go around and nerf everything because so and so finished things in 1:59. If some people take a little longer, fine, I'm not going to reduce and make adjustments because so and so took 2:01 to finish it.
2 hours is the baseline that we're aiming for. If someone is doing everything in an hour because they are finishing a quest worth 11 credits in 10 mins then that's something we need to look into to see if it's worth that rating. I don't believe there is a quest that's going to shave off 50 mins because you're a whale with investments (because 11 credits should ideally be ~1 hour). I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to look at.
I'm willing to improve things and make things such as influencing, aetherhunting, potentially plays etc, more worthwhile to do for daily credits. I'm all ears for other ideas that get people playing and involved. Someone here suggested making worldgames that admin run worth a credit tick if you participate during that event that's another option.
The intent isn't to just get numbers and stats so we can brag on some random website about how cool we are. The intent is to get people involved and playing and participating. Some people like hunting and influencing, others like questing. If there are other ideas out there, we can look into that, but again, they need to be something that we can track and reward sanely without it being abused. I'll talk things over with Ianir and other admin and see if we can come up with some things. Influence/aetherhunting adjustments shouldn't be too hard but implementing anything new won't be quick or done any time soon (we've got other stuff on our plate) but it's something we can keep in mind when we get a chance to work at it.
As others have said more eloquently, of course effort-to-reward ratio shouldn't be balanced around the massively artied max level player. Of course a wide variety of activities should be equally rewarding.
But the fundamental assumption that the game mechanics should reinforce two hours of heavily focused online gameplay every day, seven days a week or else you miss out on some of the capped rewards is, in my opinion, deeply flawed.
Why couldn't I choose to contribute to the game in a more tangible financial way, so I can opt out of having to grind quite as regularly (or at all), as long as I engage in the game on my own terms? And I seriously doubt hours per day of already rewarding, resource consuming solo questing/bashing/influencing is as beneficial to the health of the game as remaining profitable, surely. Edit: To be fair - this doesn’t solve the underlying issue with the reinforcement mechanics, it’s just a way I could opt out of them!