I mean, to be fair, guardian guilds also have cone so its not really unique to wiccans. I don't know how squad summon works, but my intention was that it would be a crappier version since it would be stopped by things that stop regular summon and not meant to be as powerful as conclave.
Lets not forget that everyone gets a lot of cosmic and elementalism through an enchantment or an artie and some useful guardian skills are also made into arties (eg. starleaper...sorta, farscout).
Although, I definitely wouldn't mind a catacombs arti, or emperor. Timeslip and forced command arties would be good ones too but might be kind of a PITA to deal with in the right hands
No need to be dramatic, still no Twist, Wane, Succumb/lash, Full, Beam, Drawdown, Nightkiss, Gloomtide, Longnight, drink, garb, penumbra, bonds, brumetower, Resurgem, Dark etc.
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
It's not dramatic. It's just a reality that Wiccans now have the most purchasable or obtainable skills via artifacts or domoth powers. It's not dramatic to simply observe a fact. Listing skills that have not been converted to artifacts is not a counter argument to that.
Yes, we share some things with elementalism and cosmic through enchantments, but the meat and potatos like rubeus are still there and not purchaseable. Let's be entirely honest, the best things in totems are artifacts now. Conclave was already pretty niche, but it definitely played a role in the last Ascenscion. It's now much less of an advantage to have it. Cone, while it had no implications in combat, was always a tremendous boon to wiccans/guardians.
It's simple and not dramatic: You devalue guilds when you put many of their best perks up for sale for everyone. That's not to say there are not some aspects of wiccans that are not still unique, but I will point everyone back to my old old thread of why wiccans tend to be a very underplayed archetype. This stuff is not helping the situation.
The reality remains that many advantages that wiccans (and others, but wiccans obviously have the most been changed into artifacts here) had have been lost as things like leap and scent become the status quo rather than advantages. There's been very little in the reverse, the number of skills I could buy to match my competition is pretty sparse. That, to me, does not encourage anyone to play a wiccan unless you just WANT to be a toad/bonds bot.
The bread and butter of wiccans remains intact and solely in the purview of wiccans. I don't think a 10p group worse than conclave summon skill or a cone (which as pointed out, has always been guardian/wiccan level), is really that devastating to wiccan play. Leap has plenty of clones throughout other skills, including beastmastery which can give -everyone- leaping ability (with stipulations sure, but it's close).
I agree that Totems has been picked over pretty hard (which is the equivalent of cosmic/elementalism), but Night/Moon (and Stag/Crow) remained relatively untouched until this round, and even then the abilities are pretty strictly utility (Flight's the exception but was pointed out as a domoth power(Dispersion) and not an artifact).
So yes, I think you're being a little dramatic in saying that Wiccans are losing all their advantages because all the skills are going to dingbat arties.
If you want a catacombs map artie, or other tarot utility stuff, I'm all on board.
The bread and butter of wiccans remains intact and solely in the purview of wiccans. I don't think a 10p group worse than conclave summon skill or a cone (which as pointed out, has always been guardian/wiccan level), is really that devastating to wiccan play. Leap has plenty of clones throughout other skills, including beastmastery which can give -everyone- leaping ability (with stipulations sure, but it's close).
I agree that Totems has been picked over pretty hard (which is the equivalent of cosmic/elementalism), but Night/Moon (and Stag/Crow) remained relatively untouched until this round, and even then the abilities are pretty strictly utility (Flight's the exception but was pointed out as a domoth power(Dispersion) and not an artifact).
So yes, I think you're being a little dramatic in saying that Wiccans are losing all their advantages because all the skills are going to dingbat arties.
If you want a catacombs map artie, or other tarot utility stuff, I'm all on board.
Yes, if I had said "all" it would have been dramatic, but I didn't. I said "a lot." I said the archetype is being devalued. Which they are, and that the shift of skills for sale is not proportionate for wiccans as it is for non wiccans.
I don't know why this is an argument. It's a simple numbers thing.
But anyways, people seem to be wildly missing the point by stating "it's not only wiccans that can cone." We know that, thank you. Not inept. The point, as I stated very clearly, was that the most common factor across all of these skills for purchase changes is Wiccans.
It's not game breaking or ruinous, but it is not fair that it is a one way exchange and it does devalue skillsets used by Wiccans.
Is it really worse than conclave? I was under the impression that conclave (for Moon, at least) basically just forced everyone in the coven to moonbeam to the caster, stopped by everything that stops magical movement (like getting moved, moving, monos, distort, bonds, etc.).
In short, totems has 17 skills, 9 of which are wholly or partially available outside the skillset, so about half of it.
Cosmic, on the other hand, has 17 skills, 12 of which are wholly available outside the skillset, and 10 which can be bought as enchantments.
In short, the complaint is baseless and selfish. Nothing was taken from Totems, and things that could be used by Wicca were also available other places (Guardians/Solemncall) and it's becoming ridiculously tiresome to listen to.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
Bear can be purchased with artifacts/items, it only offers a 1/2 universal damage buff. You can easily get curios or artifacts that far outstrip this, and the cap on it means it doesn't contribute much.
You forget what is IN the other half. The answer is not much unique. Seriously:
Squirrel - Chance to find up to a platter's worth of food. Cute! Sun - Ego Regen (woo) Rock - Rooting Moon - Mana Regen (slightly better woo) Tree - Prime territory only regen River - Regen Snake - 2/10 poison resist. Arguably purchasable with artifacts, in curio form or resistance arti.
I always want more upgrades for the stenographer, so a few possibilities:
Stenographic Editing Table (25 db?)
- Insert a scroll and several inscribed letters, which get stitched together into one record on the scroll
-Allows excerpting chunks, with marks to indicate that the record has been edited. This would let you show off the relevant parts of a long discussion.
-Allows redacting of lines/words, with a big [REDACTED] notice replacing the removed text.
Stenographic Sketch Artist Certificate (75db?)
(after purchase, you put it in the stenographer, and it consumes the item)
Teaches your mechanical stenographer to draw, allowing him to render the people present and sketch their actions as they occur. Emotes by people present can now be added to the record, PULL to toggle.
IC logs are GREAT, it helps us keep a more distinct line between IC and OOC, while still having verifiable and easy records of things. MOAR
I'm going to bump my own suggestions. I love my stenographer, but it's a pain to use sometimes. These qol (for pay) upgrades would be on my list of things to purchase!
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
So stop listening. You having no grasp on skill value or utilization and an inability to assess value and comprehend the fundamental difference between enchantments and artifacts really has no bearing on my alleged selfishness. You aren't considering any context. The wolf effect is available through rubeus, but rubeus functions very differently and counters things wolf does not. This awkward * and + list of yours is exceedingly superficial and shows nothing.
The reality is that this game has been balanced and developed around enchantments being the status quo since the conception of the game, and things like window and web were developed within cosmic/elementalism with enchantments and the game at large in mind from the very begining. These have long been established as baseline, cheap defensese everyone needs to just function in the game. Things like nimbus were implemented to fill holes when the new damage system was rolled out. You're equating trade skills that have existed from conception and balanced around for a decade, and drawing on powerful skills players just want and converting them into artifacts. Which is an understandable marketing strategy, but when the general flow is going one way, that is an issue. This is why bringing up health regen enchantments really have no relevance to this discussion.
Things like scent and horse were more powerful versions of detection and escape skills available to specific guilds, they are draws to that guild. It's a simple concept, you have writhe but bard has contort. Thus, the draw to bard is contort. You have scry, but totems have scent. Thus the draw is going to be to scent. Things like skunk and conclave were niche but situationally very valuable skills restricted to certain guilds. They, like brumetower or bonds are very powerful in their niche. Comparing horse and scent and cone to things like fear and sleep is really an absurd comparison. Even the best artifact coming from cosmic, farscout, is far less valuable than scent. We know this because the nose is one of the most prominent artifacts in the game. Yet that's not even the point, things like cone being made available to the public is unfair flow out of the archetype for guardians as well as wiccans. I, as I have repeatedly reiterated, do not believe the value that is flowing out of wiccans specifically is equitable to the value flowing out of other archetypes via skill artifacts.
It's really simple: if Shuyin the Illuminati and Celina the Wiccan are shopping for artifacts of skills available to the other guild, which one can buy more and have a greater impact with those artifacts? The answer, as of right now, will always be the Illuminati.
Again, I didn't say it was game breaking or ruinous, but it is worth mentioning.
Learn something before you come at me with name calling. (I'm not even a Wiccan, I don't have it flexed either). This was civil, but I can be rude too. If you can petition the admin to make scent and leap an enchantment, then maybe your silly post would have some point to it.
-1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I'll reiterate in a post of its own that I don't think the artifacts were a bad idea in and of themselves, or that these skills for credits/dingbats things are inherently bad. I don't have an issue with the idea itself. The exchange just needs to be even, wiccans (and guardians because apparently I speak for them now and people are upset I failed in my duty) can't just be giving away their unique, useful stuff and only get farscout in return.
We may do another round of dingbat items this month, so if you have ideas, let us know!
Idea: A "hidden item manager" (essentially an upgrade for the one-use hidden item artifact that you just released).
Somewhere between 250dbs and 500dbs (5-10 single-use items... maybe closer to 5). If you own it, you can trade in the single-use ones that you bought for a full dingbat refund (for those who bought a pile of the single-use things).
It would function like the liquid rift, in that you can link items (armour, clothing, jewellery, wearable artifacts) to it. Whenever an item is linked, it does not show on LOOK at all. You can link as many as you want. If you unlink them, they show up again.
Cute that you respond to critique with personal insults. While the remains contain a lot of regen, regen is always useful. Rooting is useful. 1/2 universal damage buff is very useful. While none are as strong as Timeslip or Quickening, with the arguable exception of an 80% fear ignorance, none are as limited as Soulguard.
Furthermore, the complaint is still invalid, because plenty other skills have had good skills taken away from them. Elementalism is like Cosmic. Most of the spells are available as enchantment. Hunting lost Rustle to the cowbell, and pathfinding to a pair of boots, and people are still pushing for Prints to be available in general as well. Music Majorsixth is also available as a skill. If you limit available artifacts to skills those that do not do damage, afflictions, put up specific defenses or are used in conjunction with other skills, there are very few abilities left.
I can understand the argument that viablity for a guild is removed when skills like Scent, incredibly useful especially considering how little prevalence Clarramore's Worst, are moved out of it. But it's ultimately a red herring. Even if you have a ton of disposable income, you don't look at a guild and decide against it because some skills are available as artifacts, especially when the sum price of those artifacts cost more than simply swapping guilds. If you don't choose a guild, it's because the whole doesn't appeal to you. And the whole of the role of Wicca provides much more than just Totems.
I do not consider the loss of nexuslinking as a unique Guardian perk to be in any way diminishing the role of the individual guardian guilds. It's a perk, and it *remains* a perk because by choosing to be a Guardian I can still access it freely. In theory, for "optimal skill availability" or something, sure I should go for a Harmony Acro Monk, but there is still a cost of actually purchasing all these additional artifacts. And this cost is far from negligible.
And finally, your argument falls really flat when you mention Rubeus as an important part of being a Guardian then neglect to mention Wolf being far superior as a protection against Fear.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
No, she pointed out that Rubeus does a lot more than protect against fear. Which is true, and tremendously important. When are you afflicted with fear anyways? Fear aura and... wait, just fear aura. It's niche. It's exceedingly niche. Pretending otherwise is silly. You listed another cannibalized forest skill, and then turn around and glorify a 1/2 damage buff. Celina's observations are correct: The totems skill is the unique guild skill that is the most farmed out with artifacts, with no reciprocal effect on cities. Listing Hunting (a primarily forest skill, notably) as another skill that has artifacts replacing its utility doesn't change that fact (something something red herring?).
What does this mean? What should be done about it? Don't know. I know what shouldn't be done: pretending it isn't true.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Cute that you respond to critique with personal insults. While the remains contain a lot of regen, regen is always useful. Rooting is useful. 1/2 universal damage buff is very useful. While none are as strong as Timeslip or Quickening, with the arguable exception of an 80% fear ignorance, none are as limited as Soulguard.
Furthermore, the complaint is still invalid, because plenty other skills have had good skills taken away from them. Elementalism is like Cosmic. Most of the spells are available as enchantment. Hunting lost Rustle to the cowbell, and pathfinding to a pair of boots, and people are still pushing for Prints to be available in general as well. Music Majorsixth is also available as a skill. If you limit available artifacts to skills those that do not do damage, afflictions, put up specific defenses or are used in conjunction with other skills, there are very few abilities left.
I can understand the argument that viablity for a guild is removed when skills like Scent, incredibly useful especially considering how little prevalence Clarramore's Worst, are moved out of it. But it's ultimately a red herring. Even if you have a ton of disposable income, you don't look at a guild and decide against it because some skills are available as artifacts, especially when the sum price of those artifacts cost more than simply swapping guilds. If you don't choose a guild, it's because the whole doesn't appeal to you. And the whole of the role of Wicca provides much more than just Totems.
I do not consider the loss of nexuslinking as a unique Guardian perk to be in any way diminishing the role of the individual guardian guilds. It's a perk, and it *remains* a perk because by choosing to be a Guardian I can still access it freely. In theory, for "optimal skill availability" or something, sure I should go for a Harmony Acro Monk, but there is still a cost of actually purchasing all these additional artifacts. And this cost is far from negligible.
And finally, your argument falls really flat when you mention Rubeus as an important part of being a Guardian then neglect to mention Wolf being far superior as a protection against Fear.
Your closing statement was to state the complaint was purely selfish, which was baseless (still not a wiccan) and fairly insulting in and of itself. Now you're offended with my tone? Lolok. Pot/kettle, etc. I told you I will happily return what you dish out. Coloring rude verbiage as a "critique," isn't going to go very far. To be selfish would require that I have a direct and personal stake in the Wiccan game.
I never said Wiccans were unique in this, hunting losing sole access to pathways really devalued it as a skillset, guardians also lost cone. The plan to sell some skills as artifacts is not a bad one. The issue, though, is I don't understand why you aren't reading what I'm typing-Wiccans, at this point, have lost the most high value skills to artifact sales than others and I am advocating for the exchange to be more equitable. Enchanting remains a non issue, you're talking trades and fundamental game concepts and not "I want" skills being converted to for sale items.
The fact that I could get a pogo and a nose were significant factors in deciding to leave the shadowdancers. Enormous, actually. That's just how impactful scent (and to a lesser extent, leap) is in PK. Had cone been an artifact, that would have been an additional consideration, because an hour of coning was enough to fuel my power drawing needs for a week, where I must now bash for essence for additional hours a week as a bard. That's a lot of my time.
Otherwise Enyalida pretty much got it. I didn't imply or otherwise state anything about wolf or rubeus other than that they are not comparable as your list tries to imply. They overlap on fear kind of (they work differently), but they serve different niche purposes. Rubeus is a counter to lust and a temporary defense to fearaura. Wolf counters (kind of) fearaura as a permanent defense. Wolf is also 50%, not 80%. I did not, nor am I now, comparing the two. In fact, I was explaining why the two cannot be compared.
Bear can be purchased with artifacts/items, it only offers a 1/2 universal damage buff. You can easily get curios or artifacts that far outstrip this, and the cap on it means it doesn't contribute much.
I don't see any universal buff like bear that you can buy. What?
Unless you're a filthy class changer. Or use destro. Or zap. Assuming, of course, their damage types aren't ones you have access to. Point being, there are no purchasable universal damage buffs in the game right now.
I mean, theoretically, as neko, I do cutting, blunt, asphyxiation, possibly some form of poison? Before figuring in the above mentioned skills.
- Lesser Runes provide 1/11 damage enhancement of the named type.
- Great Runes provide 2/12 damage enhancement of the named type.
- Superior Runes provide 3/13 damage enhancement of the named type.
HELP ARTIFACTS COMBAT. Buy the types you need to use - you will only do a maximum of 3 types, all the rest are totally wasted buffs.
Everyone has equal access and benefit from those runes. It has no relation or similarity to bear. Bear users benefit congruently to anyone else who has that item.
Comments
Squirrel
Night*
Skunk+
Sun
Rock
Moon
Crow*
Tree
Groundhog*
Trout*
Wolf+
Bear
Stag*
Monkey+
Horse*
River
Snake
Cosmic skills: *Available as enchantment. +Available as artifact
Deathsight*
Window*
Waterwalk*
Fear*
Cosmicfire
Enfeeble*
Diminish*
Enlarge*
Soulguard
Web*
Sleep*
Cloak
Farscout+
Timeslip
Nimbus*
Quickening
Gate+
In short, totems has 17 skills, 9 of which are wholly or partially available outside the skillset, so about half of it.
Cosmic, on the other hand, has 17 skills, 12 of which are wholly available outside the skillset, and 10 which can be bought as enchantments.
In short, the complaint is baseless and selfish. Nothing was taken from Totems, and things that could be used by Wicca were also available other places (Guardians/Solemncall) and it's becoming ridiculously tiresome to listen to.
Squirrel - Chance to find up to a platter's worth of food. Cute!
Sun - Ego Regen (woo)
Rock - Rooting
Moon - Mana Regen (slightly better woo)
Tree - Prime territory only regen
River - Regen
Snake - 2/10 poison resist. Arguably purchasable with artifacts, in curio form or resistance arti.
Somewhere between 250dbs and 500dbs (5-10 single-use items... maybe closer to 5). If you own it, you can trade in the single-use ones that you bought for a full dingbat refund (for those who bought a pile of the single-use things).
It would function like the liquid rift, in that you can link items (armour, clothing, jewellery, wearable artifacts) to it. Whenever an item is linked, it does not show on LOOK at all. You can link as many as you want. If you unlink them, they show up again.
Furthermore, the complaint is still invalid, because plenty other skills have had good skills taken away from them. Elementalism is like Cosmic. Most of the spells are available as enchantment. Hunting lost Rustle to the cowbell, and pathfinding to a pair of boots, and people are still pushing for Prints to be available in general as well. Music Majorsixth is also available as a skill. If you limit available artifacts to skills those that do not do damage, afflictions, put up specific defenses or are used in conjunction with other skills, there are very few abilities left.
I can understand the argument that viablity for a guild is removed when skills like Scent, incredibly useful especially considering how little prevalence Clarramore's Worst, are moved out of it. But it's ultimately a red herring. Even if you have a ton of disposable income, you don't look at a guild and decide against it because some skills are available as artifacts, especially when the sum price of those artifacts cost more than simply swapping guilds. If you don't choose a guild, it's because the whole doesn't appeal to you. And the whole of the role of Wicca provides much more than just Totems.
I do not consider the loss of nexuslinking as a unique Guardian perk to be in any way diminishing the role of the individual guardian guilds. It's a perk, and it *remains* a perk because by choosing to be a Guardian I can still access it freely. In theory, for "optimal skill availability" or something, sure I should go for a Harmony Acro Monk, but there is still a cost of actually purchasing all these additional artifacts. And this cost is far from negligible.
And finally, your argument falls really flat when you mention Rubeus as an important part of being a Guardian then neglect to mention Wolf being far superior as a protection against Fear.
No, she pointed out that Rubeus does a lot more than protect against fear. Which is true, and tremendously important. When are you afflicted with fear anyways? Fear aura and... wait, just fear aura. It's niche. It's exceedingly niche. Pretending otherwise is silly. You listed another cannibalized forest skill, and then turn around and glorify a 1/2 damage buff. Celina's observations are correct: The totems skill is the unique guild skill that is the most farmed out with artifacts, with no reciprocal effect on cities. Listing Hunting (a primarily forest skill, notably) as another skill that has artifacts replacing its utility doesn't change that fact (something something red herring?).
Can you please now clarify how bear can be purchased with artifacts or items?
I mean, theoretically, as neko, I do cutting, blunt, asphyxiation, possibly some form of poison? Before figuring in the above mentioned skills.
Release auction artifacts!
- Gilded Cage
- Boots of Shanth
Yeah, I do 4 types of damage, so if I were to min/max, I'd need 4 runes by the by.