Even speculating, loosely, that we did consider testing skillsets before release with a few select envoys, those envoys would then be A) expected to keep their mouth quiet (not likely), possibly sign an NDA, like we require of our mortal builders, and C) wouldn't be allowed to participate in any event leading up to its release.
I think those players would soon find the role of envoy both really unpleasant, and far too costly. And the temptation to 'spill' far too tempting. Heck, sometimes I just want to be like, "HEY LOOK WHAT WE'RE DOING THIS IS SO COOL", but I can't, because the surprise and 'big reveal' is far more fun. And you guys aren't my 'buddies', even! (But you better believe the other gods hear about it, eesh)
Being expected to keep their mouth shut is a given. That they won't is also a given. This is an accepted part of envoy testing pre-release. The pros and cons are up to the administration to weigh. The amount of problems this heads off - minor bugs, crippling bugs, design suggestions, can save a great deal of resources, however. If secrecy must be kept more important than release satisfaction from your players (customers), then I have nothing else to add to that. It's the administration's prerogative.
However, I do not see why envoys involved in testing pre-release must be excluded from events. What's the reason? That they know what the skills do (and/or contributed to improving or fixing it) doesn't mean they will be able to lead the entire game in an unfair advantage to finish the event faster, or anything of that sort.
Why would they not be allowed in the event for a skill? It's not like knowing what's in the skillset would give them some kind of benefit in the quest. Even if they were told the date of the event, it wouldn't help much. When an event goes down, all of the applicable players are generally notified anyways, either by their guild denizen or each other, sometimes OOC. I know I skyped some people when the Wildewood event happened. I'm pretty sure that it's how some of the other games run things, and it catches a lot of weird problems in skillsets (Players are particularly good at finding those!), without increasing required coder/admin time.
EDIT: And big surprise reveals can be soured by apparently untested/non-functional/"over-functional" skills, for more than just the Envoy.
Even speculating, loosely, that we did consider testing skillsets before release with a few select envoys, those envoys would then be A) expected to keep their mouth quiet (not likely), possibly sign an NDA, like we require of our mortal builders, and C) wouldn't be allowed to participate in any event leading up to its release.
I think those players would soon find the role of envoy both really unpleasant, and far too costly. And the temptation to 'spill' far too tempting. Heck, sometimes I just want to be like, "HEY LOOK WHAT WE'RE DOING THIS IS SO COOL", but I can't, because the surprise and 'big reveal' is far more fun. And you guys aren't my 'buddies', even! (But you better believe the other gods hear about it, eesh)
Being expected to keep their mouth shut is a given. That they won't is also a given. This is an accepted part of envoy testing pre-release. The pros and cons are up to the administration to weigh. The amount of problems this heads off - minor bugs, crippling bugs, design suggestions, can save a great deal of resources, however. If secrecy must be kept more important than release satisfaction from your players (customers), then I have nothing else to add to that. It's the administration's prerogative.
However, I do not see why envoys involved in testing pre-release must be excluded from events. What's the reason? That they know what the skills do (and/or contributed to improving or fixing it) doesn't mean they will be able to lead the entire game in an unfair advantage to finish the event faster, or anything of that sort.
We actually ran into this problem with mortal builders when we were prepping to release Gaudiguch and Hallifax.
Because those individuals had pre-existing knowledge of the cities being built, and relative knowledge of their completion (room-wise), when the faintest of hints at the cities being involved jumped, several of them were very hard-line on "It must be Gaudi/Halli!" - while perfectly reasonable conclusions to come to ICly, other alternatives were, in some cases, dismissed entirely out of hand in favour of 'gut feelings' and things like that. Those decisions had the potential for very seriously driving how organizations acted in the events leading up to it. It's not deliberate, it's not intentional, and it's very difficult to engage in that kind of impartiality when at the back of your mind there's this little voice going, "Ohgodisitreallybeingreleasedalready?!".
Ultimately, not all events are straight-forward. While thankfully the potential damage from Gaudi/Halli was mitigated and all of the builders involved and not involved (and those taken on since) have been warned about erring on the side of caution when they think it might be a project they've worked on (that is to say, they should think long and hard about whether or not their OOC knowledge has influenced their leaning towards one thing over another), sometimes there's a 'twist' - one that can be more or less ruined by pre-existing knowledge of its forthcoming. Imagine that ultimately the Icewynd ended with the release of a new skillset involving psionic warriors (a la the Forsaken/Climaru) for more goodly aligned cities and a variant for more negatively aligned organizations in some guild or another, and an envoy had tested it, known about various aspects of flavour that might reference them, be it symbolism (the burning red/pink eyes, the cold resistance, references to thoughtforms of Zenos and Ice Angels, maybe part of it would spec trill into "Frost Trill" as a racial alternative, etc etc etc). Certainly, that kind of stuff could outright ruin events if an envoy who helped test engaged in impropriety, or worse, unintentionally allowed their knowledge to alter their perceptions of the event in a manner that would've thrown a serious wrench into our plans, and forced us to reconsider our approach to the matter.
To your previous point re secrecy vs "release satisfaction", I don't think they're inherently opposed to one another. Indeed, bugs can be fixed and skillsets balanced, but you can't undo the kind of damage that a 'surprise' release of a new skillset via an event or series of events would endure due to a bad leak. And while I know some people scoff, I've been through enough events to know that often times the excitement of the release, the climax and the peak of it all and the discovery, are a big part of why people enjoy Lusternia.
While we ultimately strive for a sense of balance before release, often times you're talking about three or four people (at most!) engaging in anything beyond theory crafting, and you can't always get that broad sense of perspective until you see it in play in a greater manner. Really, I acknowledge the vulnerability in design with 'too few eyes' wherein something can be crazy overpowered but insofar as we've considered it being usable it seems more reasonable, and then when players get their hands on it they'll start to prove how crazy overpowered it is (or horridly underpowered it is). Indeed, I've seen it enough times to know it's an inevitability, more often than not - and while it'd be nice to think giving a couple envoys the privilege of seeing it before it's released to comment, I don't think the addition of Celina's eyes (as beautiful as they are, I'm sure!) would prove to see the skillset be released at a markedly more "balanced"/less buggy state, at least not so far as to be worth ruining whole events and 'big reveals' due to a leak (I just pick on you, Celina, because I like ya). You're talking about gambling with what is sometimes months or even years in the design, planning and coding phases, and then weeks or months in preparing 'big' events to release them.
And while Estarra has her opinions on them, which she's expressed herself in numerous places, I, personally, don't think it's a worthwhile gamble. While the frustration is, in some cases, avoidable, in other cases the frustration proves to be unmerited, as mechanics become more fully known or understood. And these kinds of things tend to play out best in the broader game, versus a small test server (which mine, with just me and a couple of shells to beat up on each other, can move abysmally slow when I'm doing 'bigger things') with a couple of people.
Like I said, when all the pros and cons are weighed, it just doesn't seem like a worthwhile gamble to me, personally. Maybe I'm wrong though! Maybe 9 times out of 10 it'll go smoothly and not be problematic at all. I still don't know if that 10% would be worth it, because I can't express the kind of emotional kick-in-the-gut having - or fearing - an event is ruined because someone just couldn't help but tell their friends about this cool build project or what have you. Because, like I said, it really diminishes a lot of the effort that someone has put into it all, to feel kind of 'cheated' of the 'big reveal'.
And you guys might never really get to understand it unless you're on our side one day, but the 'big reveal' really can make tons and tons of effort and stress and anxiety worthwhile. Sometimes, it's the only thing that keeps some admin going, even when they come to really, really hate a project they've devoted a year and a half to. (Totally not speaking from experience.)
Seems like an easy solution to me. Grab envoys that aren't a part of the org that is getting the new skill. At this point, isn't it well known that the other demesne using guilds are going to get a new skill anyways? There's been Aquachemantics, Aerochemantics...I'm gonna grab my crystal ball here and guess that Pyrochemantics and Geochemantics are probably going to be the skill names for the other two mage ones. They may possibly involve fire and earth, respectively. Not sure about Glomdoring, Glomwoode or Doringwoode or something? I have no idea how their name breaks down.
Slap the envoys with an NDA, as part of the terms they all get banned/punished in some fashion if one person leaks. So, they'd have to be REAAAALY dedicated to want to check the skills out and critique them in the first place. As for the lines and what not, just make them generic "Tarkenton shoots you with a mighty earth power!" or something for the description in the build you have the players utilize.
While we ultimately strive for a
sense of balance before release, often times you're talking about three
or four people (at most!) engaging in anything beyond theory crafting,
and you can't always get that broad sense of perspective until you see
it in play in a greater manner. Really, I acknowledge the vulnerability
in design with 'too few eyes' wherein something can be crazy overpowered
but insofar as we've considered it being usable it seems more
reasonable, and then when players get their hands on it they'll start to
prove how crazy overpowered it is (or horridly underpowered it is).
Indeed, I've seen it enough times to know it's an inevitability, more
often than not - and while it'd be nice to think giving a couple envoys
the privilege of seeing it before it's released to comment, I don't
think the addition of Celina's eyes (as beautiful as they are, I'm
sure!) would prove to see the skillset be released at a markedly more
"balanced"/less buggy state, at least not so far as to be worth ruining
whole events and 'big reveals' due to a leak (I just pick on you,
Celina, because I like ya). You're talking about gambling with what is
sometimes months or even years in the design, planning and coding
phases, and then weeks or months in preparing 'big' events to release
them. ...
Like I said, if you don't feel the theory of experienced players who actually play
the game can add more than preserving the integrity of the excitement of
release, that's perfectly fine and understandable. It is the admin's prerogative not to do envoy testing pre-release if it isn't worth it. Aetolia does this without requiring NDAs, and it doesn't ruin it much for them. That doesn't mean Lusternia has to follow suit - if the current way things are done are better for the people actually doing it, and it works, then fine. Keep on with it.
However, is it working? Simple testing can and should be done by the coders alone, even if envoys are not involved. And in this case, of glinshari/aquoxitism/vacuum, the first two had been changed to lower their damage, and yet vacuum's release still comes with all the problems of the first two, unfixed. What's the point of having a "broad sense of perspective" then, if the problems that the admin have acknowledged and fixed is left untested and released with the same problems in future iterations? Coding and releasing is thankless business, and humans make mistakes. But if you're unwilling to accept envoy assistance, and yet continually release products that fall below the bare minimum (fixing problems that previous releases have already fixed), then what's the bottomline? Are we supposed to accept that every release is not only going to introduce new issues (which is reasonable) but also old ones as well?
tl;dr - If the admin don't want to let envoys help with testing, fine. Put some effort and do some actual testing, then.
While we ultimately strive for a
sense of balance before release, often times you're talking about three
or four people (at most!) engaging in anything beyond theory crafting,
and you can't always get that broad sense of perspective until you see
it in play in a greater manner. Really, I acknowledge the vulnerability
in design with 'too few eyes' wherein something can be crazy overpowered
but insofar as we've considered it being usable it seems more
reasonable, and then when players get their hands on it they'll start to
prove how crazy overpowered it is (or horridly underpowered it is).
Indeed, I've seen it enough times to know it's an inevitability, more
often than not - and while it'd be nice to think giving a couple envoys
the privilege of seeing it before it's released to comment, I don't
think the addition of Celina's eyes (as beautiful as they are, I'm
sure!) would prove to see the skillset be released at a markedly more
"balanced"/less buggy state, at least not so far as to be worth ruining
whole events and 'big reveals' due to a leak (I just pick on you,
Celina, because I like ya). You're talking about gambling with what is
sometimes months or even years in the design, planning and coding
phases, and then weeks or months in preparing 'big' events to release
them. ...
Like I said, if you don't feel the theory of experienced players who actually play
the game can add more than preserving the integrity of the excitement of
release, that's perfectly fine and understandable. It is the admin's prerogative not to do envoy testing pre-release if it isn't worth it. Aetolia does this without requiring NDAs, and it doesn't ruin it much for them. That doesn't mean Lusternia has to follow suit - if the current way things are done are better for the people actually doing it, and it works, then fine. Keep on with it.
However, is it working? Simple testing can and should be done by the coders alone, even if envoys are not involved. And in this case, of glinshari/aquoxitism/vacuum, the first two had been changed to lower their damage, and yet vacuum's release still comes with all the problems of the first two, unfixed. What's the point of having a "broad sense of perspective" then, if the problems that the admin have acknowledged and fixed is left untested and released with the same problems in future iterations? Coding and releasing is thankless business, and humans make mistakes. But if you're unwilling to accept envoy assistance, and yet continually release products that fall below the bare minimum (fixing problems that previous releases have already fixed), then what's the bottomline? Are we supposed to accept that every release is not only going to introduce new issues (which is reasonable) but also old ones as well?
tl;dr - If the admin don't want to let envoys help with testing, fine. Put some effort and do some actual testing, then.
I don't really know what's going on with the new skillsets, or why Vacuum's damage is wacky. They aren't my project, but I do have faith in the person who's project it is to sort it out. There's probably a very rational and reasonable explanation for it (like an extra digit in a variable or macro carry over, or in function input where % health is being determined, etc).
I am sorry, though, that problem has arisen, and maybe we should stop to spend a bit more testing with the newer skills to make sure those kinds of errors don't happen again with the next three. I agree, it's unfortunate that it occurred - though, across a greater perspective, those kinds of problems don't usually persist like that. It really shouldn't be taken as being indicative of the 'new [non]standard', or however you'd like to put it. I'm quite certain it won't happen again when we get to Wyrdenwood.
(Or maybe it will, but if it does, it's only because I went in and made it that way after the skillset was finished, just to troll the envoys.)
...maybe we should stop to spend a bit more testing with the newer skills to make sure those kinds of errors don't happen again with the next three...
I'm not going to speak for everyone else in the game, but please do this. Take some time, an hour or two extra, note down in a checklist common problems voiced out before. Test their effects as extensively as is reasonable. No one's expecting a perfect release, but at the very least you want to limit the frustration people feel to issues that are unforseen, that did not crop up before.
Some things people have pointed out, just off the top of my head. There are probably others, too. 1) Sensitivity from cloudkill is applied before the damage. Probably a bug. 2) Vacuum damage. 3) Static proc chance is too high. Particularly, static is (possibly) proccing multiple times on a single cleave. You'll want to consider looking into fixing this for cavalier guard and other proc chance skills like psiarmour and the reflexive affs of these new specs, if it is working in the same way there as well, because this shouldn't need an envoy report to be changed. 4) Forcewall may need adjustment.
Some of the above points might be important for the future releases, others are specific to aerochem. Either way, noting them all down and reviewing them before the other three releases will go a long way to making players feel you're actually making use of the feedback people spend time and effort to find out and bring up.
I understand the concerns about the surprise. However, I think that given we know the other skillsets are coming and the fact that the skills mirror each other in terms of spores, blasts, mists, etc, that it might make sense to make use of the envoys' knowledge and perhaps discuss with some of them the potential afflictions being combined etc.
How about we don't delay the new skills, as I'd like something new and shiny to use during the upcoming Ascension, especially seeing as it seems like it is going to be those with the new skills (Celest, Seren, Halli) vs. those without (Glom, Mag, Gaudi).
Yes, I know this is not intentional, and that their being released in a certain order is based off of player involvement in an event, but it would be nice to not have to worry about it being brought up. At least if all of the skills are out by Ascension, nobody can complain about one having it over the other. People will still complain about this being better than this, yada yada, but having a combination of mages/druids with demesnes and those able to go without them will be a heavy advantage for one side over the other.
How about we don't delay the new skills, as I'd like something new and shiny to use during the upcoming Ascension, especially seeing as it seems like it is going to be those with the new skills (Celest, Seren, Halli) vs. those without (Glom, Mag, Gaudi).
Yes, I know this is not intentional, and that their being released in a certain order is based off of player involvement in an event, but it would be nice to not have to worry about it being brought up. At least if all of the skills are out by Ascension, nobody can complain about one having it over the other. People will still complain about this being better than this, yada yada, but having a combination of mages/druids with demesnes and those able to go without them will be a heavy advantage for one side over the other.
I don't know... I don't see a whole lot of Blacktalon going tree form. That said, if they had the skillsets ready for release... they probably would've released them faster. More likely they're being released as coding is done.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
How about we don't delay the new skills, as I'd like something new and shiny to use during the upcoming Ascension, especially seeing as it seems like it is going to be those with the new skills (Celest, Seren, Halli) vs. those without (Glom, Mag, Gaudi).
Yes, I know this is not intentional, and that their being released in a certain order is based off of player involvement in an event, but it would be nice to not have to worry about it being brought up. At least if all of the skills are out by Ascension, nobody can complain about one having it over the other. People will still complain about this being better than this, yada yada, but having a combination of mages/druids with demesnes and those able to go without them will be a heavy advantage for one side over the other.
I don't know... I don't see a whole lot of Blacktalon going tree form. That said, if they had the skillsets ready for release... they probably would've released them faster. More likely they're being released as coding is done.
Didn't @Qistrel mention the two tree visions, one of being a tree, and the other being perched up in a tree?
Seems like Glommies will be able to turn into crows?
Didn't @Qistrel mention the two tree visions, one of being a tree, and the other being perched up in a tree?
Seems like Glommies will be able to turn into crows?
Crowform is the trans Crow skill, much like Stagform is the trans Stag skill. I doubt the vision is related... and we do have a tree in our room behind the door, much the same way Hartstone did, so yeah.... we'll be getting a treeform.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
How about we don't delay the new skills, as I'd like something new and shiny to use during the upcoming Ascension, especially seeing as it seems like it is going to be those with the new skills (Celest, Seren, Halli) vs. those without (Glom, Mag, Gaudi).
Well, whatever happens will happen, but I really don't think releasing new skillsets so close to ascension is a good idea.
I don't think it's feasible to hope that all 6 specs will be out before the Final Trial.
I guess that's just the advantage of having placed higher. Who knew the contest would be perceived as so dramatic in effect?!
Wow, talk about awful planning. It's just the central event around which the entire game revolves. Why shouldn't it be influenced by an inflexible population race 4 months earlier about stuffing essence into a door? How could it not be? That would be crazy.
I don't think it's feasible to hope that all 6 specs will be out before the Final Trial.
I guess that's just the advantage of having placed higher. Who knew the contest would be perceived as so dramatic in effect?!
Wow, talk about awful planning. It's just the central event around which the entire game revolves. Why shouldn't it be influenced by an inflexible population race 4 months earlier about stuffing essence into a door? How could it not be? That would be crazy.
Come on. Come ooooon.
Yes, awful planning. Love how Geomancers for most of the event after Aquamancers opened the door were in second/third to open, and then over night the rules of the door change and I wake up the next morning to find out we barely edged out of last place because we had no one around when the divine allowed everyone to dump essence in. Now not only do we suffer being next to last in seeing our new skillset, but it may not be ready for the event.
I don't think a "population race" is an entirely accurate way to describe it - going by population, geomancers would've been second or third, not fifth. And the Aeromancers would've been dead last - and the Blacktalon would've given the Aquamancers a run for their money, had there been any inclination to try until halfway through the contest.
Anyways, I really don't want to fall back into that discussion, as it's pretty non-germane to the general topic at hand. I'm sorry people are unhappy with it, but done is done.
Maybe we'll all be surprised, but I'd be shocked if those involved produced three skillsets in a couple of weeks. I was really just speculating based on general progress. I question the rationale of rushing three skillsets to be done in a couple of weeks, particularly when some are asking we spend more time testing them to make sure these repeating bugs do not occur. Certainly, it'd be contrary to the general consensus (on all sides!) regarding not wanting to pump out skills that are so terribly broken they're doing 99% of max health with no affliction stack, room-wide. I think, as my own opinion mind you, a better goal would be to try to resolving outstanding issues versus try to risk producing more.
... particularly when some are asking we spend more time testing them to make sure these repeating bugs occur. ...
Maybe I've misread things, but I am pretty sure I'd recall seeing that request.
Oh I meant "these repeating bugs don't occur". Woops, damn autocorrect! (Let's just say it's responsible.)
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
It was a population race, the results don't change the nature of the competition. But yes, that's neither here nor there. The point is that it wasn't, or shouldn't be, directly attached to who has an advantage in Ascension.
All I'm saying that the smarter choice would have been to release them all before, or all after. I mean, people are competing right now. The end of this event turns into a giant group fight, where some will have destructive and unfamiliar group combat skills and others won't. Just seems like, as usual, emphasis was put on new and shiny rather than logic and balance.
But what do I know. Rabble rabble impossible to make people happy rabble rabble.
Not having all 6 of the specs out by ascension is awful planning. That is a fact. To half-release a set of specs just before ascension is just logically unsound from a balance perspective. Not because having more skills will inherently be a benefit (it will, actually, but not by that much) but rather because the skills do not have the time it takes to be adequately balanced before ascension itself. Hallifax/Gaudiguch are handicapped by their lack of monks (and bards a year or two earlier), but while they suffer for it, it's not too bad because the skillsets are at least at an acceptable level of inter-class balance. The new specs may or may not be, and if problems come up during ascension, it will be nearly impossible to hotfix.
It's awful planning, period. There is no doubt that releasing after ascension will have been the responsible course of action. Insisting on pushing this out is a mistake I hope the admin (and Estarra) will acknowledge, because I know I will appreciate a reassurance that this kind of lack of foresight will not happen again much more than a silence that implicitly tries to disown responsibility of the mess we are currently in. You guys made a boo-boo on the release timing, that's a plain fact.
That said, to rush out all 6 specs just before ascension is not going to make things any better. The skills will still have potential unforseen (and forseen, but unfixed) imbalances, on top of an increased possibility of bugs. This isn't even a matter of whether it's possible to finish the code for them or not. Skill releases are never perfectly balanced on release, but they should always be of a certain minimum standard. Bugs are to be expected, but not ones so egregrious that they can be caught by simple testing. This is what prompted my rant, aerochem doesn't seem to have been tested enough to meet this bare minimum of product integrity.
Insisting on pushing this out is a mistake I hope the admin (and Estarra) will acknowledge, because I know I will appreciate a reassurance that this kind of lack of foresight will not happen again much more than a silence that implicitly tries to disown responsibility of the mess we are currently in.
If you have a complaint that you would like to voice to Estarra, you should e-mail support@lusternia.com directly as I don't know if she reads every thread on the forums. The rest of us are volunteers and it isn't our place to put words in the mouth of others but I also do not want to give you the impression that we are ignoring you.
Insisting on pushing this out is a mistake I hope the admin (and Estarra) will acknowledge, because I know I will appreciate a reassurance that this kind of lack of foresight will not happen again much more than a silence that implicitly tries to disown responsibility of the mess we are currently in.
If you have a complaint that you would like to voice to Estarra, you should e-mail support@lusternia.com directly as I don't know if she reads every thread on the forums. The rest of us our volunteers and it isn't our place to put words in the mouth of others but I also do not want to give you the impression that we are ignoring you.
Except Celina. We ignore Celina.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Eesh. You know, sometimes, I understand why some admin resign with their hands in the air going, 'Why do I bother'. Several people have the unrivaled talent of expressing their opinions in such a way that decidedly makes some say, 'Why do we bother?' - certainly, I really don't care to spend my free time tonight working on things that will, inevitably, lead to the kind of acidity, nastiness and hostility that is present in some of the posts. I make great efforts to filter myself down a few times over when I'm posting, and usually succeed to varying degrees. This post probably falls in the lower end.
I don't, personally, think releasing the skills prior to the Final Trial was a mistake, and if you do, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. For the rest of the thread, though, I've found some of the general attitude to be far too hostile, aggressive, and frankly borderline rude that I'm worn out from trying to answer nicely and be as understanding as possible. I really draw the line, though, when I feel like there are apologies being demanded because of design decisions being made, because certain players or groups of players feel as though they were made in err. So I'm just going to follow the examples of other admin and back out of this thread.
If you've concerns about the skillset, I suggest you speak to your envoy(s), and when an Aerochemantics special report comes around, they can be expressed there. If you feel there's been a poor decision on the part of the administration, your best recourse, as always, is to bring up the matter with support@lusternia.com.
At the risk of looking like a suck-up, I'm inclined to agree with Eventru here. It's such a large undertaking, and to have it met with complaints rather than understanding would be incredibly discouraging to me.
The Necromentate's mind opens to you, and a grotesque, demonic figure appears in your mind's eye, screaming in torment: "THE DEMON LORDS CAN NEVER TRULY BE KILLED - GREAT IS THEIR POWER."
You shock a platinum-coloured geomycus with tales of terror bestowed on villages who don't follow Magnagora. A platinum-coloured geomycus slaps her knee and declares that, by the gods, Ptoma Hive should follow the Grand Empire of Magnagora after all! Shouts rise up from Ptoma Hive, as its denizens loudly pledge themselves to the Grand Empire of Magnagora.
Yes, some people were rude and angry. I probably was one of them... I usually don't have a good filter myself, so it happens. I'm a web developer, so I know mistakes do happen when coding. That said, certain mistakes need to be hotfixed... like the static field and vacuum situation, and they need to be hotfixed before War... an event that is about to happen in less than 48 hours. Would I be angry if an Aerochem team wins War simply because they all had static field and nobody could touch them? Yes. Would I be angry if an Aerochem team wins because they wiped out an entire room simply by using a 10p ability? Of course. I somewhat agree that the new skillsets should've all been released before seals came into play... or after Ascension, but eh... what's done is done... how about we try and learn from the experience and avoid repeating it?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
After talking to a few other admin, the consensus and impression seems to be the same. The general tone of the thread is one of pretty bitter and nasty aggression, outright hostility, and has all the feeling of having been turned into a shooting gallery with the administration as the target.
Given our very long-standing policy on complaints regarding administrative decisions and that this thread has regressed far from its original point, I'm just going to close it. I can manage a measure of empathy that some things probably should've been caught before Aerochemantics was released, like the Vacuum damage with no afflictions. However, I'm simply not going to tolerate feeling like members of the administration are being not just disagreed with but outright vilified and insulted. That's just not the way things roll, and so long as the intention of some is to guide the discussion in that direction, it's just not going to happen here.
Sorry.
Congratulations to the Aeromancers and their new spec - bugs aside, I know a few people worked very hard on its design, mechanics and flavour, and I hope that, above all else, it's all you hoped for and more in terms of flavour and being worked into the existing lore in a manner that is comfortable for your guild. I'm sorry the thread has taken the tone and turn that it has.
Comments
Being expected to keep their mouth shut is a given. That they won't is also a given. This is an accepted part of envoy testing pre-release. The pros and cons are up to the administration to weigh. The amount of problems this heads off - minor bugs, crippling bugs, design suggestions, can save a great deal of resources, however. If secrecy must be kept more important than release satisfaction from your players (customers), then I have nothing else to add to that. It's the administration's prerogative.
However, I do not see why envoys involved in testing pre-release must be excluded from events. What's the reason? That they know what the skills do (and/or contributed to improving or fixing it) doesn't mean they will be able to lead the entire game in an unfair advantage to finish the event faster, or anything of that sort.
So yes, it is. That's crazy high damage!
Because those individuals had pre-existing knowledge of the cities being built, and relative knowledge of their completion (room-wise), when the faintest of hints at the cities being involved jumped, several of them were very hard-line on "It must be Gaudi/Halli!" - while perfectly reasonable conclusions to come to ICly, other alternatives were, in some cases, dismissed entirely out of hand in favour of 'gut feelings' and things like that. Those decisions had the potential for very seriously driving how organizations acted in the events leading up to it. It's not deliberate, it's not intentional, and it's very difficult to engage in that kind of impartiality when at the back of your mind there's this little voice going, "Ohgodisitreallybeingreleasedalready?!".
Ultimately, not all events are straight-forward. While thankfully the potential damage from Gaudi/Halli was mitigated and all of the builders involved and not involved (and those taken on since) have been warned about erring on the side of caution when they think it might be a project they've worked on (that is to say, they should think long and hard about whether or not their OOC knowledge has influenced their leaning towards one thing over another), sometimes there's a 'twist' - one that can be more or less ruined by pre-existing knowledge of its forthcoming. Imagine that ultimately the Icewynd ended with the release of a new skillset involving psionic warriors (a la the Forsaken/Climaru) for more goodly aligned cities and a variant for more negatively aligned organizations in some guild or another, and an envoy had tested it, known about various aspects of flavour that might reference them, be it symbolism (the burning red/pink eyes, the cold resistance, references to thoughtforms of Zenos and Ice Angels, maybe part of it would spec trill into "Frost Trill" as a racial alternative, etc etc etc). Certainly, that kind of stuff could outright ruin events if an envoy who helped test engaged in impropriety, or worse, unintentionally allowed their knowledge to alter their perceptions of the event in a manner that would've thrown a serious wrench into our plans, and forced us to reconsider our approach to the matter.
To your previous point re secrecy vs "release satisfaction", I don't think they're inherently opposed to one another. Indeed, bugs can be fixed and skillsets balanced, but you can't undo the kind of damage that a 'surprise' release of a new skillset via an event or series of events would endure due to a bad leak. And while I know some people scoff, I've been through enough events to know that often times the excitement of the release, the climax and the peak of it all and the discovery, are a big part of why people enjoy Lusternia.
And while Estarra has her opinions on them, which she's expressed herself in numerous places, I, personally, don't think it's a worthwhile gamble. While the frustration is, in some cases, avoidable, in other cases the frustration proves to be unmerited, as mechanics become more fully known or understood. And these kinds of things tend to play out best in the broader game, versus a small test server (which mine, with just me and a couple of shells to beat up on each other, can move abysmally slow when I'm doing 'bigger things') with a couple of people.
Like I said, when all the pros and cons are weighed, it just doesn't seem like a worthwhile gamble to me, personally. Maybe I'm wrong though! Maybe 9 times out of 10 it'll go smoothly and not be problematic at all. I still don't know if that 10% would be worth it, because I can't express the kind of emotional kick-in-the-gut having - or fearing - an event is ruined because someone just couldn't help but tell their friends about this cool build project or what have you. Because, like I said, it really diminishes a lot of the effort that someone has put into it all, to feel kind of 'cheated' of the 'big reveal'.
And you guys might never really get to understand it unless you're on our side one day, but the 'big reveal' really can make tons and tons of effort and stress and anxiety worthwhile. Sometimes, it's the only thing that keeps some admin going, even when they come to really, really hate a project they've devoted a year and a half to. (Totally not speaking from experience.)
Like I said, if you don't feel the theory of experienced players who actually play the game can add more than preserving the integrity of the excitement of release, that's perfectly fine and understandable. It is the admin's prerogative not to do envoy testing pre-release if it isn't worth it. Aetolia does this without requiring NDAs, and it doesn't ruin it much for them. That doesn't mean Lusternia has to follow suit - if the current way things are done are better for the people actually doing it, and it works, then fine. Keep on with it.
However, is it working? Simple testing can and should be done by the coders alone, even if envoys are not involved. And in this case, of glinshari/aquoxitism/vacuum, the first two had been changed to lower their damage, and yet vacuum's release still comes with all the problems of the first two, unfixed. What's the point of having a "broad sense of perspective" then, if the problems that the admin have acknowledged and fixed is left untested and released with the same problems in future iterations? Coding and releasing is thankless business, and humans make mistakes. But if you're unwilling to accept envoy assistance, and yet continually release products that fall below the bare minimum (fixing problems that previous releases have already fixed), then what's the bottomline? Are we supposed to accept that every release is not only going to introduce new issues (which is reasonable) but also old ones as well?
tl;dr - If the admin don't want to let envoys help with testing, fine. Put some effort and do some actual testing, then.
I am sorry, though, that problem has arisen, and maybe we should stop to spend a bit more testing with the newer skills to make sure those kinds of errors don't happen again with the next three. I agree, it's unfortunate that it occurred - though, across a greater perspective, those kinds of problems don't usually persist like that. It really shouldn't be taken as being indicative of the 'new [non]standard', or however you'd like to put it. I'm quite certain it won't happen again when we get to Wyrdenwood.
(Or maybe it will, but if it does, it's only because I went in and made it that way after the skillset was finished, just to troll the envoys.)
I'm not going to speak for everyone else in the game, but please do this. Take some time, an hour or two extra, note down in a checklist common problems voiced out before. Test their effects as extensively as is reasonable. No one's expecting a perfect release, but at the very least you want to limit the frustration people feel to issues that are unforseen, that did not crop up before.
Some things people have pointed out, just off the top of my head. There are probably others, too.
1) Sensitivity from cloudkill is applied before the damage. Probably a bug.
2) Vacuum damage.
3) Static proc chance is too high. Particularly, static is (possibly) proccing multiple times on a single cleave. You'll want to consider looking into fixing this for cavalier guard and other proc chance skills like psiarmour and the reflexive affs of these new specs, if it is working in the same way there as well, because this shouldn't need an envoy report to be changed.
4) Forcewall may need adjustment.
Some of the above points might be important for the future releases, others are specific to aerochem. Either way, noting them all down and reviewing them before the other three releases will go a long way to making players feel you're actually making use of the feedback people spend time and effort to find out and bring up.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
How about we don't delay the new skills, as I'd like something new and shiny to use during the upcoming Ascension, especially seeing as it seems like it is going to be those with the new skills (Celest, Seren, Halli) vs. those without (Glom, Mag, Gaudi).
Yes, I know this is not intentional, and that their being released in a certain order is based off of player involvement in an event, but it would be nice to not have to worry about it being brought up. At least if all of the skills are out by Ascension, nobody can complain about one having it over the other. People will still complain about this being better than this, yada yada, but having a combination of mages/druids with demesnes and those able to go without them will be a heavy advantage for one side over the other.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Seems like Glommies will be able to turn into crows?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Well, whatever happens will happen, but I really don't think releasing new skillsets so close to ascension is a good idea.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Wow, talk about awful planning. It's just the central event around which the entire game revolves. Why shouldn't it be influenced by an inflexible population race 4 months earlier about stuffing essence into a door? How could it not be? That would be crazy.
Come on. Come ooooon.
Yes, awful planning. Love how Geomancers for most of the event after Aquamancers opened the door were in second/third to open, and then over night the rules of the door change and I wake up the next morning to find out we barely edged out of last place because we had no one around when the divine allowed everyone to dump essence in. Now not only do we suffer being next to last in seeing our new skillset, but it may not be ready for the event.
Anyways, I really don't want to fall back into that discussion, as it's pretty non-germane to the general topic at hand. I'm sorry people are unhappy with it, but done is done.
Maybe we'll all be surprised, but I'd be shocked if those involved produced three skillsets in a couple of weeks. I was really just speculating based on general progress. I question the rationale of rushing three skillsets to be done in a couple of weeks, particularly when some are asking we spend more time testing them to make sure these repeating bugs do not occur. Certainly, it'd be contrary to the general consensus (on all sides!) regarding not wanting to pump out skills that are so terribly broken they're doing 99% of max health with no affliction stack, room-wide. I think, as my own opinion mind you, a better goal would be to try to resolving outstanding issues versus try to risk producing more.
Oh I meant "these repeating bugs don't occur". Woops, damn autocorrect! (Let's just say it's responsible.)
It was a population race, the results don't change the nature of the competition. But yes, that's neither here nor there. The point is that it wasn't, or shouldn't be, directly attached to who has an advantage in Ascension.
All I'm saying that the smarter choice would have been to release them all before, or all after. I mean, people are competing right now. The end of this event turns into a giant group fight, where some will have destructive and unfamiliar group combat skills and others won't. Just seems like, as usual, emphasis was put on new and shiny rather than logic and balance.
But what do I know. Rabble rabble impossible to make people happy rabble rabble.
It's awful planning, period. There is no doubt that releasing after ascension will have been the responsible course of action. Insisting on pushing this out is a mistake I hope the admin (and Estarra) will acknowledge, because I know I will appreciate a reassurance that this kind of lack of foresight will not happen again much more than a silence that implicitly tries to disown responsibility of the mess we are currently in. You guys made a boo-boo on the release timing, that's a plain fact.
That said, to rush out all 6 specs just before ascension is not going to make things any better. The skills will still have potential unforseen (and forseen, but unfixed) imbalances, on top of an increased possibility of bugs. This isn't even a matter of whether it's possible to finish the code for them or not. Skill releases are never perfectly balanced on release, but they should always be of a certain minimum standard. Bugs are to be expected, but not ones so egregrious that they can be caught by simple testing. This is what prompted my rant, aerochem doesn't seem to have been tested enough to meet this bare minimum of product integrity.
I don't, personally, think releasing the skills prior to the Final Trial was a mistake, and if you do, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. For the rest of the thread, though, I've found some of the general attitude to be far too hostile, aggressive, and frankly borderline rude that I'm worn out from trying to answer nicely and be as understanding as possible. I really draw the line, though, when I feel like there are apologies being demanded because of design decisions being made, because certain players or groups of players feel as though they were made in err. So I'm just going to follow the examples of other admin and back out of this thread.
If you've concerns about the skillset, I suggest you speak to your envoy(s), and when an Aerochemantics special report comes around, they can be expressed there. If you feel there's been a poor decision on the part of the administration, your best recourse, as always, is to bring up the matter with support@lusternia.com.
"THE DEMON LORDS CAN NEVER TRULY BE KILLED - GREAT IS THEIR POWER."
You shock a platinum-coloured geomycus with tales of terror bestowed on villages who don't follow Magnagora.
A platinum-coloured geomycus slaps her knee and declares that, by the gods, Ptoma Hive should follow the Grand Empire of Magnagora after all!
Shouts rise up from Ptoma Hive, as its denizens loudly pledge themselves to the Grand Empire of Magnagora.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Given our very long-standing policy on complaints regarding administrative decisions and that this thread has regressed far from its original point, I'm just going to close it. I can manage a measure of empathy that some things probably should've been caught before Aerochemantics was released, like the Vacuum damage with no afflictions. However, I'm simply not going to tolerate feeling like members of the administration are being not just disagreed with but outright vilified and insulted. That's just not the way things roll, and so long as the intention of some is to guide the discussion in that direction, it's just not going to happen here.
Sorry.
Congratulations to the Aeromancers and their new spec - bugs aside, I know a few people worked very hard on its design, mechanics and flavour, and I hope that, above all else, it's all you hoped for and more in terms of flavour and being worked into the existing lore in a manner that is comfortable for your guild. I'm sorry the thread has taken the tone and turn that it has.