I think I'll spontaneously combust ICly if Brennan's all like "Our future was weakness." And then kill him for his doubt.
Plus hnng. Just hnnng.
Edit: BT is all I've known and I love it. I'm irrationally nervous about any changes that are made to it (I'm sorry to the wonderful people who have probably spent hours and hours and days and weeks planning and plotting these skillsets - it's very appreciated, but I can't stop being nervous!).
I feel the same way, I could handle (for the most part, despite me loving my lucidian race) turning into a crow fully (outside Crow form that is), but I don't want to be tree.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
We don't balance around strictly solo, just as a note. So if there's a warrior in the room, or any of the 37423 sources of aeon available to Hallifax...it's going to be a real problem. Fighting Hallifax will be aeonfield+aeon on hit+active aeon. That's brutal. Aeon spam on its own is obnoxious in groups, so let's just triple it. That seems like a good idea.
It's unreasonable and borderline impossible to balance around group combat (without removing group combat), as well. The class should be functional and capable solo, and I think in the long run reactive aeon will be fine.
Re sensitivity, I think that's obviously a bug.
Yet we still do it! Room choke was removed because of groups. Single target choke was removed largely because of groups. Sacrifice was nerfed for groups. Demesnes were nerfed because of groups. Psyvamp was nerfed because of groups. I could go on, but the point is there is certainly a level of consideration for group combat.
As a note, they will have psionics so I think any concern, regardless of the balance of the new skillset, about how viable they are solo is pretty moot.
*rant about psionics already being too good without passive aeon, balance loss, etc etc here*
Must feel pretty bad to see Aerochem literally being much better than both Aquachemantics and Wildewood combined.
Plus side, maybe this means the last 3 skills will be even better than this.
P.S. Forcewall will be bananas when it comes to revolts, chaos events, etc. Just salt the waller and you have a permanent GP.
A Permanent GP that keeps the user from doing almost -anything-. Aethers and emotes, that's about it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I thought it was already said that you can gust through forcewall? If it's just a barrier in one direction, it's not that bad. And if it doesn't stop started tumbles, it isn't even a barrier.
It also prevents entry into that room from that direction, which makes it a great GP clone for one direction, like say, the doors into Angkrag, Southgard, and Rockholm during a revolt. The paths to Ptoma, Ixthiaxa, and others count too. So does the chaos event given that there are many "one path" areas around. It's getting -into- a room that will be a pain, not getting out of it.
Also, who cares if you can't do anything, just pause and get salted.
Edit: If it allows aethers, then there really is no excuse considering you can spam 'oh god salt me' over and over.
If you can also be force-moved INTO the room with the forcefield-holder, it still isn't quite as restrictive as GP. Can you fly over it (well aware that the places you mentioned would make that impossible)?
It also prevents entry into that room from that direction, which makes it a great GP clone for one direction, like say, the doors into Angkrag, Southgard, and Rockholm during a revolt. The paths to Ptoma, Ixthiaxa, and others count too. So does the chaos event given that there are many "one path" areas around. It's getting -into- a room that will be a pain, not getting out of it.
Also, who cares if you can't do anything, just pause and get salted.
Edit: If it allows aethers, then there really is no excuse considering you can spam 'oh god salt me' over and over.
And wow, finally someone that understands my concern in regards to force wall. This was the issue I was having with it. If user -can- be salted, it means the user can hold a location blocked for an unlimited amount of time. True, things like psi ranged attacks would still get through, but since when does Glom have ranged psi? I'm not mentioning Seren, because Seren is quite friendly with Halli at present, but they'll likely have the same issues should that friendship dissipate eventually. Yes, gpent is pretty strong as well, but last I checked, gpent also costs 10p. Now let's consider Ascension with a few aerochems simply sitting there and walling off the entry points to where the staff is being held... or yes, as Shuyin mentioned, revolts and such. Do you burrow under? Not possible in all situations. Do you fly over? Again, not possible everywhere, though if fly over is considered a bug as well... what's next, burrowing under is also a bug? Now, we know admins love Hallifax, but come on.
Additionally, I had no problem with Aquachem/Wildewood reactives as none of them were too crippling on their own, but... do these reactives react to demesne hits as well as regular directed attacks? Do they react to beast attacks? Do they react to each hit in a kata form? Because if so, the RNG can always screw someone over and stick a monk with a nice aeon after a kata form, or a melder with aeon from striking a single Aerochem, let alone if there's multiple Aerochems present. So what do the people who prefer holding melds do? Just unenemy the aerochems? Then need to consider the fact that it doesn't look like any other new skillset synergizes with others as well as Aerochems do. Got Aeonics with you? No prob, we got timewarp! Got regular aeros with you? No prob, we got cloud coils!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
They react to anything that does damage. So yes, for druids it will have two trigger chances every 10 seconds for every effected aerochem. Presumably all of these have a lower chance per hit on a combo to hit, as that's how those things typically work.
Whoa. That forcewall is a contentious ability and the number of ways free lockout abilities can be used (or abused) has been clear to quite a few people. There was quite a lengthy discussion about forcewall on envoys today, so it is on the radar. For my part, I would agree that it needs changing.
And I think I'll just ignore the admin bias parts of your post.
Whoa. That forcewall is a contentious ability and the number of ways free lockout abilities can be used (or abused) has been clear to quite a few people. There was quite a lengthy discussion about forcewall on envoys today, so it is on the radar. For my part, I would agree that it needs changing.
And I think I'll just ignore the admin bias parts of your post.
It was an attempt at a jest, considering how ridiculously strong force wall appears to be, especially if it was 'fixed' to prevent pogo, leap, etc.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
If you're talking about Static, you guys really should figure out how the skill works before jumping to the conclusion that it must be "ridiculously strong". (If you're not talking about Static, not sure what you're referring to!)
Also, I'm not broken up about introducing a counter to the monk omni-trump card.
All classes have set ups that they struggle with. Passive healing makes bardqusition nearly impossible, acrobatics is a giant crotch punch to people building wounds, passive stun/hindering curb stomps strategies reliant on careful timing and the list goes on.
Monks have been consistently getting balanced to becoming comparable with other classes. Where problems are found, they are discussed and fixes proposed. If you're going to try to justify why the new spec has a mechanic that unfairly affects ALL COMBO USERS more than non combo users, you're going to have to come up with more than an unsubstantiated "monks are OP'd". There is nothing fun about having your attacks negated passively. This isn't strategy, this isn't balancing. We've been through this with old dodge. If you want the new spec to be particularly strong against monks, sure, give them a mechanic that requires strategical application to use and to overcome. A mini-dodge isn't it.
It's unreasonable and borderline impossible to balance around group combat (without removing group combat), as well. The class should be functional and capable solo, and I think in the long run reactive aeon will be fine.
Re sensitivity, I think that's obviously a bug.
It's borderline impossible to balance around group combat. But it's not "unreasonable" to do so when possible. It is "unreasonable" to ignore obvious, blatant group combat imbalance when these problems are found. Lusternia has a history of balancing around group combat as much as possible, in order to restrict or remove the most egregrious and unfair combinations. Preserving solo viability is, of course, the priority. That much is undisputed. But there must be a balance, if there is something that is obviously broken in a group that the class often operates within, then leaving it unfixed will be not only "unreasonable", but also counter-productive to promoting solo viability - because no one will bother using the class solo.
You say that reactive aeon in the long run will be fine. I am inclined to agree, myself - particularly so when it is used alone. However, Hallifax has access to one of the few (only?) passive aeon, while at the same time they also have classes that synergize with and are centered around aeon. It is pretty much an accepted fact that aeon is one of Hallifax's combat characteristics. They already function well in the status quo. The question now isn't "is aerochemantics reflexive aeon fine?" because we know it probably is. The question now is "is aerochemantics reflexive aeon going to push the balance over the edge when used with Hallifax's other aeon as well?" This question is still up in the air - until solid data is presented as evidence, we can't say for sure either way. And that means the possibility of it being tweaked or changed must still be kept open until it is proven it is fine, or it is not. To say "it is fine" and imply it won't be changed is really not a good idea at this early point in time.
As for forcewall, channeled blocking of all entry and exits is a little unfair for group combat based events. Particularly things like Ascension. Chanelling is a huge, huge cost and limiting factor. On paper and design theory, it certainly is a good balance to the effect. But keep in mind that if the effect is too much, no cost justifies it. You can't give me an area-wide instakill ability that is unblockable, even if it costs 50% reserves and has a 1 minute channelled cast time. The discussion of forcewall should center around whether its effects are too much or not, not whether its costs justify the effects. If it needs nerfing, changing it and lowering the cost should certainly be considered. I think the most unbalancing factor is the absence of a window to take advantage of - at least great pent has a small window in between casts when done by a single person. Being able to see forcewall in action will be helpful in getting data, of course, but with Ascension being so close, I think the anxiousness of the posters are pretty justified.
Well, I might as well be productive: I think a good change for forcewall would be to have it tick every X seconds or so, the user has to keep focusing to channel the wall. Then all you have to do is make this tick be considered aggressive to drop shields.
If you're talking about Static, you guys really should figure out how the skill works before jumping to the conclusion that it must be "ridiculously strong". (If you're not talking about Static, not sure what you're referring to!)
they're talking about Force, and the possibility of basically sealing off a room with Aerochemantic users, salting them all, and yeah. Sealing off a room in a village for influencing and whatnot.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Would it allay people's fears if Forcewall users couldn't be shielded or salted, like people using decap or chasm?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
If you're talking about Static, you guys really should figure out how the skill works before jumping to the conclusion that it must be "ridiculously strong". (If you're not talking about Static, not sure what you're referring to!)
they're talking about Force, and the possibility of basically sealing off a room with Aerochemantic users, salting them all, and yeah. Sealing off a room in a village for influencing and whatnot.
As Shuyin mentioned, it's not just a room in a village. You can easily block a village off completely via force wall... all the mountain villages have a single entry point, are fully indoors and in mountains, so can't burrow/fly in. Just have your influencers run around with monoliths to prevent people porting in and you have no entrance in the village. Yes, someone menitoned pyramid port points inside villages like that, but come on now... needing a 500cr arti to go around a 0p ability?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Would it allay people's fears if Forcewall users couldn't be shielded or salted, like people using decap or chasm?
I'd definitely be less worried about that, yes. Means I could cudgel them and they'd need to either drop the wall or end up dead. Or wisp them, or beckon, or whatever.
EDIT: Probably be even better if the wall wasn't an insta either, but takes a few seconds to be brought back up on initiate... like 5 seconds of window before the wall is fully active and preventing entry.
EDIT 2: Does the force wall also stop dream forms?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Comments
Yet we still do it! Room choke was removed because of groups. Single target choke was removed largely because of groups. Sacrifice was nerfed for groups. Demesnes were nerfed because of groups. Psyvamp was nerfed because of groups. I could go on, but the point is there is certainly a level of consideration for group combat.
As a note, they will have psionics so I think any concern, regardless of the balance of the new skillset, about how viable they are solo is pretty moot.
*rant about psionics already being too good without passive aeon, balance loss, etc etc here*
Since bug resolution came back, it's blocking gusts in/out too.
Weaken the wall so you can get INTO places please
And wow, finally someone that understands my concern in regards to force wall. This was the issue I was having with it. If user -can- be salted, it means the user can hold a location blocked for an unlimited amount of time. True, things like psi ranged attacks would still get through, but since when does Glom have ranged psi? I'm not mentioning Seren, because Seren is quite friendly with Halli at present, but they'll likely have the same issues should that friendship dissipate eventually. Yes, gpent is pretty strong as well, but last I checked, gpent also costs 10p. Now let's consider Ascension with a few aerochems simply sitting there and walling off the entry points to where the staff is being held... or yes, as Shuyin mentioned, revolts and such. Do you burrow under? Not possible in all situations. Do you fly over? Again, not possible everywhere, though if fly over is considered a bug as well... what's next, burrowing under is also a bug? Now, we know admins love Hallifax, but come on.
Additionally, I had no problem with Aquachem/Wildewood reactives as none of them were too crippling on their own, but... do these reactives react to demesne hits as well as regular directed attacks? Do they react to beast attacks? Do they react to each hit in a kata form? Because if so, the RNG can always screw someone over and stick a monk with a nice aeon after a kata form, or a melder with aeon from striking a single Aerochem, let alone if there's multiple Aerochems present. So what do the people who prefer holding melds do? Just unenemy the aerochems? Then need to consider the fact that it doesn't look like any other new skillset synergizes with others as well as Aerochems do. Got Aeonics with you? No prob, we got timewarp! Got regular aeros with you? No prob, we got cloud coils!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
And I think I'll just ignore the admin bias parts of your post.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
If you're talking about Static, you guys really should figure out how the skill works before jumping to the conclusion that it must be "ridiculously strong". (If you're not talking about Static, not sure what you're referring to!)
It's borderline impossible to balance around group combat. But it's not "unreasonable" to do so when possible. It is "unreasonable" to ignore obvious, blatant group combat imbalance when these problems are found. Lusternia has a history of balancing around group combat as much as possible, in order to restrict or remove the most egregrious and unfair combinations. Preserving solo viability is, of course, the priority. That much is undisputed. But there must be a balance, if there is something that is obviously broken in a group that the class often operates within, then leaving it unfixed will be not only "unreasonable", but also counter-productive to promoting solo viability - because no one will bother using the class solo.
You say that reactive aeon in the long run will be fine. I am inclined to agree, myself - particularly so when it is used alone. However, Hallifax has access to one of the few (only?) passive aeon, while at the same time they also have classes that synergize with and are centered around aeon. It is pretty much an accepted fact that aeon is one of Hallifax's combat characteristics. They already function well in the status quo. The question now isn't "is aerochemantics reflexive aeon fine?" because we know it probably is. The question now is "is aerochemantics reflexive aeon going to push the balance over the edge when used with Hallifax's other aeon as well?" This question is still up in the air - until solid data is presented as evidence, we can't say for sure either way. And that means the possibility of it being tweaked or changed must still be kept open until it is proven it is fine, or it is not. To say "it is fine" and imply it won't be changed is really not a good idea at this early point in time.
As for forcewall, channeled blocking of all entry and exits is a little unfair for group combat based events. Particularly things like Ascension. Chanelling is a huge, huge cost and limiting factor. On paper and design theory, it certainly is a good balance to the effect. But keep in mind that if the effect is too much, no cost justifies it. You can't give me an area-wide instakill ability that is unblockable, even if it costs 50% reserves and has a 1 minute channelled cast time. The discussion of forcewall should center around whether its effects are too much or not, not whether its costs justify the effects. If it needs nerfing, changing it and lowering the cost should certainly be considered. I think the most unbalancing factor is the absence of a window to take advantage of - at least great pent has a small window in between casts when done by a single person. Being able to see forcewall in action will be helpful in getting data, of course, but with Ascension being so close, I think the anxiousness of the posters are pretty justified.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
EDIT: Probably be even better if the wall wasn't an insta either, but takes a few seconds to be brought back up on initiate... like 5 seconds of window before the wall is fully active and preventing entry.
EDIT 2: Does the force wall also stop dream forms?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
In the one, you were a tree beating up undead.
In the other, you were perched in a tree that was beating up undead.