I agree with @Maligorn - scent is crucial enough to all combat that locking it behind an org skill (that only 2/6 orgs even have) is likely to cause many problems, especially because one of the most important parts of combat is pinning people down.
I'm curious as to why @Enadonella disagrees with this.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
The reason why artifact weapons are so prominent over class weapons isn't always how much damage, but what -TYPE- of damage. Very very very few things resist divinus, and many many things are weak to it. The reason why whips (first arti weapon) was so mandatory was because "Gotta have that divinus damage!", then came wonderwand which was just a better whip, then came the gnome weapons. I honestly believe if divinus wasn't the only damage type worth building/buying class weapons would be meaningful. There are so many things that resist excorable, screwing Mag/Glom out the gate. Nearly everything resists cutting and blunt, or just one, screwing warriors and monks. Mob defenses are pretty much designed to make us want to seek out the only damage type that doesn't have this problem, thus we have these artifact weapons.
Wouldn't say everyone, but there does seem a great deal of support behind it. The only way using a class weapon is going to matter is if we can choose what type(s) of damage it does, otherwise these artifacts are going to reign supreme.
I also would rather my attack description be my class'. Before I open this can of worms, I do not want artifact weapons per class. However, what if we created generic bashing runes level 1,2, and 3. The rune would change base of your bashing attack to x for whatever class you currently are. Rune 1 would be 250 credits, rune 2 would be 500 credits, and rune 3 would be 800 allowing you to upgrade. We could convert current weapons to these levels based on the amount of investment within each.
Just a thought, but what if level 3 was allowed to switch the type of damage like wonderwand x times month? Could also be unlimited switches and a switch a weave for level 2, or any other combination could work too.
Edit: Another idea would be allow damage to be shifted by an Archpower Capacitor. Much like polarity works in Paradigmatics.
The only problem I see with this suggestion, the bashing runes, is it just puts us in the situation where monk is the end all be all once more for bashing. Perhaps in addition to the idea, is the rune level is also how many attack targets it can hit.
Suggestion to Innon's idea:
1) Rune 1 - 250 credits
a) 1 target, does whip base damage
2) Rune 2 - 500 credits
a) 2 targets, does gnome weapon base (if all 10 were added pre-crit)
3) Rune 3- 750 credits
a) 3 targets, does wonderwand base damage
Would also make it so that these bashing runes can be attuned to a damage type at a power cost, reminiscent of mage staves:
Syntax: TUNE STAFF <percent> POISON <percent> CUTTING <percent> ASPHYXIATION TUNE STAFF CLEAR Power: 1 (Megalith of Doom) As your connection to the tainted earth grows, so does your ability to control the staff you have fashioned from it. You may TUNE STAFF to choose what percentage of your damage is in the form of poison, cutting or asphyxiation damage. You may also TUNE STAFF CLEAR to return your staff to its original balance. NOTE: Percentages may range from 0-100 for each damage type, but must be multiples of 10 and sum to 100.
I'm not super worried about min/maxing speed, but the reason I bought a divinus whip (which I still use quite happily) was because of the massive disparity between things that are weak to divinus (all of astral for example) and weak to excorable (domoth critters? Lirangsha? Can't think of much else) which was my primary damage type as a Nihilist. At least the whip took away the malus I faced. I had it customised to be Morgfyrian and cool but I still loath the freaking holy choir that sings when I use it that I was told couldn't be customised. HMPH.
If it weren't for damage type I'd probably not have worried too much about whip. I don't have a wonder wand either, but like I said, I'm not worried about being best of the best or 'competitive', I just want to be viable.
The wonderclock needs to be adjusted in my opinion.
17. Timeslider: Allows you to dodge time as per Timeslip, and may stack with that ability if possessed (usable 5/IG month). This power may be activated through your Time Tattoo.
Pairing this with the timeslip artifact would vastly be effective at using two balances against you. This needs to be changed, maybe only used 3/IG month or even just 1/IG month, because it's pretty powerful.
20. Time Stop: Allows you to negate all damage, curing and afflictions roomwide for a total of 10 seconds per IG day. These seconds do not all need to be used at once - the power can be stopped prematurely and restarted if desired. If the full 10 seconds are used then the clock becomes cracked. Time Stop may not be activated if the clock is cracked. This power may be activated through your Time Tattoo.
This one. I took a look at this one here, and I think it needs to either shorten the amount of seconds 10 to 6 seconds or remove the stop/restarted mechanic. I'm open to suggestions on how to limit this.
The cool night-time breeze shivers in the arid caress of the streets of the capital city, brushing the earthen taste of dust across your lips.
*
A blessed silence falls upon the city for the moment, most activity confined to the towers and the theatre due to the snowy weather.
*
Pinprick points of light twinkle in the deep black overhead, their brightness full of a cold, hungering malice.
Gnome weapons et al. are fine. Since it was converted to goop especially, it's universally accessible and not hard to get (unlike promo wonder crystals, which has been made easier to be sure, but still a limitation). Since whips/etc. came about, it leveled the playing field of class bashing abilities. Yes, class bashing attacks are cool and all, but impossible to reasonably balance without destroying their uniqueness. Whips/wonderwand/gnomeweapons fixes all of that, and each have their pros/cons.
Gnome weapons et al. are fine. Since it was converted to goop especially, it's universally accessible and not hard to get (unlike promo wonder crystals, which has been made easier to be sure, but still a limitation). Since whips/etc. came about, it leveled the playing field of class bashing abilities. Yes, class bashing attacks are cool and all, but impossible to reasonably balance without destroying their uniqueness. Whips/wonderwand/gnomeweapons fixes all of that, and each have their pros/cons.
Also tad issue with certain classes...Guardians especially...just being horrid at hunting with class skills.
Gnome weapons et al. are fine. Since it was converted to goop especially, it's universally accessible and not hard to get (unlike promo wonder crystals, which has been made easier to be sure, but still a limitation). Since whips/etc. came about, it leveled the playing field of class bashing abilities. Yes, class bashing attacks are cool and all, but impossible to reasonably balance without destroying their uniqueness. Whips/wonderwand/gnomeweapons fixes all of that, and each have their pros/cons.
Also tad issue with certain classes...Guardians especially...just being horrid at hunting with class skills.
I can confirm. All guardian bashing mechanics need a tune.
The cool night-time breeze shivers in the arid caress of the streets of the capital city, brushing the earthen taste of dust across your lips.
*
A blessed silence falls upon the city for the moment, most activity confined to the towers and the theatre due to the snowy weather.
*
Pinprick points of light twinkle in the deep black overhead, their brightness full of a cold, hungering malice.
Have you tested it much since the bashing rework went through?
They buffed up the numbers on guardian bashing by a fair bit.
Even after the rework, it was still unmanageable. I have Nihilist switched out more times than not because it's still not great. I think there is something to be said about a follow-up for any prior reworks.
The cool night-time breeze shivers in the arid caress of the streets of the capital city, brushing the earthen taste of dust across your lips.
*
A blessed silence falls upon the city for the moment, most activity confined to the towers and the theatre due to the snowy weather.
*
Pinprick points of light twinkle in the deep black overhead, their brightness full of a cold, hungering malice.
I agree with @Maligorn - scent is crucial enough to all combat that locking it behind an org skill (that only 2/6 orgs even have) is likely to cause many problems, especially because one of the most important parts of combat is pinning people down.
I'm curious as to why @Enadonella disagrees with this.
Tarken said:
Scent isn't manditory: its just easy, or fights on facility or dramube would be impossible. Personally I'd want to see any changes to the artefact propagate to the skill as well though, and my personal preference would be a 5 second internal cd rather than adding a balance. I doubt this is a battle worth fighting though.
There is your answer @Shaddus. Anything else confusing you?
I agree with @Maligorn - scent is crucial enough to all combat that locking it behind an org skill (that only 2/6 orgs even have) is likely to cause many problems, especially because one of the most important parts of combat is pinning people down.
I'm curious as to why @Enadonella disagrees with this.
Tarken said:
Scent isn't manditory: its just easy, or fights on facility or dramube would be impossible. Personally I'd want to see any changes to the artefact propagate to the skill as well though, and my personal preference would be a 5 second internal cd rather than adding a balance. I doubt this is a battle worth fighting though.
There is your answer @Shaddus. Anything else confusing you?
Yeah, I'm confused as to why you're quoting someone else instead of forming your own opinion and explaining it.
I mean, Maligorn said locking scent behind a skillset that only 1/3 of the game has (IE, removing noses) is likely to cause problems. You disagreed, and shared a post from Tarken explaining that scent isn't mandatory, but it makes the game easier (and almost 100% needed in certain bubbles), and how he felt like scent could use an internal cd. These two posts aren't really connected in any way aside from the word "scent", and you can agree or disagree with both.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
That's not what the comment about certain bubbles is saying. He's saying "If scent is required for combat, how did anyone fight on Dramube or Facility [where all the rooms are named the same thing, rendering scent useless]".
Scent is practically a requirement because the meta has entirely revolved around lockdowns and chasing for a decade, and is balanced around the idea that if someone leaves the room you can reasonably chase them down. Because being held still is so dangerous in the current balance environment, there are lots of tools to get out of a room and skedadle and without a solid way to track enemies down in real time, those methods effectively get you out of danger if you get two rooms away and can keep moving.
That's not what the comment about certain bubbles is saying. He's saying "If scent is required for combat, how did anyone fight on Dramube or Facility [where all the rooms are named the same thing, rendering scent useless]".
Scent is practically a requirement because the meta has entirely revolved around lockdowns and chasing for a decade, and is balanced around the idea that if someone leaves the room you can reasonably chase them down. Because being held still is so dangerous in the current balance environment, there are lots of tools to get out of a room and skedadle and without a solid way to track enemies down in real time, those methods effectively get you out of danger if you get two rooms away and can keep moving.
I agree with @Maligorn - scent is crucial enough to all combat that locking it behind an org skill (that only 2/6 orgs even have) is likely to cause many problems, especially because one of the most important parts of combat is pinning people down.
I'm curious as to why @Enadonella disagrees with this.
Tarken said:
Scent isn't manditory: its just easy, or fights on facility or dramube would be impossible. Personally I'd want to see any changes to the artefact propagate to the skill as well though, and my personal preference would be a 5 second internal cd rather than adding a balance. I doubt this is a battle worth fighting though.
There is your answer @Shaddus. Anything else confusing you?
explaining that scent isn't mandatory, but it makes the game easier (and almost 100% needed in certain bubbles)
Which is pretty much what I said he said.
My point is that Enadonella disagreed with a point, and when called on that disagreement, replied by sharing a post that was only tangentially connected to that point because of subject matter
Maligorn says that scent is important and shouldn't be kept to two orgs.
Tarken's post, regardless of his intent, agrees with Maligorn's post or at least proves his point.
Enadonella is just disagreeing with Maligorn because he's Maligorn, and she doesn't have a cognizant point to make beyond making some obvious forum partisanship.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
As for "how did people fight on these bubbles before scent became so widespread", through a lot of scry enchantments, guesswork, and good luck.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
When you don't have scent like tool you just move around and follow the target as they move. To some extent you have to read the map and do a bit of ground work. The most of the other IRE's don't have an instant track to someone so people just get used to it and move about by themselves.
explaining that scent isn't mandatory, but it makes the game easier (and almost 100% needed in certain bubbles)
No, but it's NOT 100% needed in certain bubbles. It's 100% useless in certain bubbles, and needed in other bubbles the same as everywhere else in the game.
Because you always see what room they exit in. Good thing people don't have invisibility which hides which direction they left! I'm also so glad every map is like a straight hallway with only one direction to go rather than a fleshed out map with options in each room to change up the route. Not to mention, this is Lusternia, not other IRE's. But I'll humor this, Achaea? Has instant tracking, Aetolia? Has instant tracking, MKO? Had instant tracking, Imperian? Dunno, but then that would be the exception and not Lusternia. Saying that those who don't get the skill naturally just shouldn't have, and instead should just wander about hoping to spot the person they are pursuing. We were given noses because it is such a vital thing and leveled the playing field.
I don't feel like anyone is severely hindered by scent. I also feel like the idea to remove scent was only to distract from more serious issues. I feel like it's been an if this gets changed then this which is most certainly not constructive or beneficial. If you remove scent then we need to remove tumble, ss, backflip, carry, tackle, gust, summon, beckon, tiphat, centre, etc. I would also say that if you remove scent then you would need to remove gem of cloaking as well. This is a slippery slope because balancing has already been made with scent in mind.
We were given noses because it is such a vital thing and leveled the playing field.
? No, noses were given because people asked what would be a cool whimsical artifact (they were sold for dingbats and the definition of dingbat arties was "whimsical, maybe kinda useful gnomish detritus"). It was a way to sell some artifacts, it wasn't a "Hey we really researched this out, let's add a new thing to the game for everyone to change the combat meta." If it was, it wouldn't have been sold for 150 dingbats. :P
Nitpick: 1/2 of orgs contain classes with scent. However, only 3/5s of two orgs, and 2/5s of one org, actually have scent: given equal distribution, 8/30s of the game has scent. Not only is '1/3 of the game has scent through class skills' more accurate than '1/2 of the game has scent through class skills', it's actually still an overestimate.
When you don't have scent like tool you just move around and follow the target as they move. To some extent you have to read the map and do a bit of ground work.
Could you explain what you mean by 'move around and follow the target as they move' and 'do a bit of ground work'? Because it sounds like you're saying 'wander randomly in the hopes you bump into them'.
That's a change of tune, Xenthos. Not to mention that it was a racial trait like previously discussed. Either way, not sure why noses and scent keep getting brought up, it's not a contested point, and a very select minority of the playerbase has an issue with them.
I'm all for deleting any artifacts and enchantments that allow someone to use skills from someone else's skillset. All of them.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
Just a thought, but what if level 3 was allowed to switch the type of damage like wonderwand x times month? Could also be unlimited switches and a switch a weave for level 2, or any other combination could work too.
Edit: Another idea would be allow damage to be shifted by an Archpower Capacitor. Much like polarity works in Paradigmatics.
TUNE STAFF CLEAR
Power: 1 (Megalith of Doom)
As your connection to the tainted earth grows, so does your ability to control the staff you have fashioned from it. You may TUNE STAFF to choose what percentage of your damage is in the form of poison, cutting or asphyxiation damage. You may also TUNE STAFF CLEAR to return your staff to its original balance.
NOTE: Percentages may range from 0-100 for each damage type, but must be multiples of 10 and sum to 100.
If it weren't for damage type I'd probably not have worried too much about whip. I don't have a wonder wand either, but like I said, I'm not worried about being best of the best or 'competitive', I just want to be viable.
possessed (usable 5/IG month). This power may be activated through your Time Tattoo.
seconds per IG day. These seconds do not all need to be used at once - the power can be stopped
prematurely and restarted if desired. If the full 10 seconds are used then the clock becomes cracked.
Time Stop may not be activated if the clock is cracked. This power may be activated through your
Time Tattoo.
theatre due to the snowy weather.
hungering malice.
theatre due to the snowy weather.
hungering malice.
They buffed up the numbers on guardian bashing by a fair bit.
theatre due to the snowy weather.
hungering malice.
There is your answer @Shaddus. Anything else confusing you?
I mean, Maligorn said locking scent behind a skillset that only 1/3 of the game has (IE, removing noses) is likely to cause problems. You disagreed, and shared a post from Tarken explaining that scent isn't mandatory, but it makes the game easier (and almost 100% needed in certain bubbles), and how he felt like scent could use an internal cd. These two posts aren't really connected in any way aside from the word "scent", and you can agree or disagree with both.
Scent is practically a requirement because the meta has entirely revolved around lockdowns and chasing for a decade, and is balanced around the idea that if someone leaves the room you can reasonably chase them down. Because being held still is so dangerous in the current balance environment, there are lots of tools to get out of a room and skedadle and without a solid way to track enemies down in real time, those methods effectively get you out of danger if you get two rooms away and can keep moving.
My point is that Enadonella disagreed with a point, and when called on that disagreement, replied by sharing a post that was only tangentially connected to that point because of subject matter
Maligorn says that scent is important and shouldn't be kept to two orgs.
Tarken's post, regardless of his intent, agrees with Maligorn's post or at least proves his point.
Enadonella is just disagreeing with Maligorn because he's Maligorn, and she doesn't have a cognizant point to make beyond making some obvious forum partisanship.
Accountability is necessary.