Artifact Review

Orael

As has been mentioned by players in other threads, one of the goals we've had in this first quarter was to review artifacts and their impact on the game. 

We'll be looking to make these changes alongside the development of Timequakes to help and try to promote a better conflict/PvP atmosphere. 

A couple of examples of the artifacts that we'll be looking at.

1) Wonderitem purify. 
2) Wonderitem Illusoryself
3) Cement Socks/feather (rooting artifacts)


If there are other artifacts or curios that you feel should be addressed during this review, please bring them up here. It's unlikely that we'll be able to address every last thing, but we can at least make an impact and address the most egregious offenders. 

Additionally if you have ideas for how to address these, please post those as well.


Thanks

Xenthos

1) Purify can just go away.  Replace it with something else.  I don't care, brazier has plenty of useful stuff on it.

2) Brazier IllSelf can just be PvE only.  Could consider adjusting the power cost in that case, or not-- it's still very strong in that case.  Only absorbs NPC attacks, not player ones.

3) Cement Socks / Feather.  To me the biggest issue is the feather letting you stack *everything else* for max rooting, and then just pop the feather on / off to nullify it (you never need to remove the socks, the feather wipes it all out).  Feather should have a delay before it takes effect (like a 10s cooldown before its power activates or goes away).  Can tweak further past that if needed, just get rid of this instant max to min and back thing that we have going on.

4) Pig nose (and skinned variants).  Balanceless free tracking on everyone in the area.  Basically a requirement for PvP.  It should at least have a bit of a cost to it.

Steingrim

Orael said:

1) Wonderitem purify. 

I'm not wedded to this effect, but does it need to go away in the new mage system? Probably?

Orael said:

 
2) Wonderitem Illusoryself

If this needs to go away, then I don't see how it doens't need to go away as a skill. As far as I can think, glamourists give up no defense to gain it (in which case it would make sense to have a makeup skill).

If Illusoryself breaks some instaskills then is it not maybe better to fix that in the skills? All removing it from the artifact does is make it so less people break things.

Orael said:

3) Cement Socks/feather (rooting artifacts)

Have you considered a mixture of reduction of and cooldowns? For instance, making it have a lot of impact on a cool down timer, meaning one would have to take some time upfront to strip the effect? A bit like a weight version of vitality?

Steingrim

Xenthos said:

4) Pig nose (and skinned variants).  Balanceless free tracking on everyone in the area.  Basically a requirement for PvP.  It should at least have a bit of a cost to it.

I'd like to see the plans for goop before this sort of change. They're only 3k goop and if there's an ingame way to earn goop then it won't be too burdensome.

Having a cost on use will make it tons harder to track down people.

I don't see noses as a bar for entry, other than to mostly alts? Most newer players are going to be sticking with the group. Pathing has close some of the previous gaps.

Kagato

Xenthos said:

1) Purify can just go away.  Replace it with something else.  I don't care, brazier has plenty of useful stuff on it.
  - Definitely agree with this.  Purify is overpowered in it's ability to stop melders dead in their tracks.

2) Brazier IllSelf can just be PvE only.  Could consider adjusting the power cost in that case, or not-- it's still very strong in that case.  Only absorbs NPC attacks, not player ones.
  - Sounds like a good idea IMHO - taking it away altogether because of PvP issues is a bit drastic; why does PvE stuff need to be affected for the sake of balancing PvP?

3) Cement Socks / Feather.  To me the biggest issue is the feather letting you stack *everything else* for max rooting, and then just pop the feather on / off to nullify it (you never need to remove the socks, the feather wipes it all out).  Feather should have a delay before it takes effect (like a 10s cooldown before its power activates or goes away).  Can tweak further past that if needed, just get rid of this instant max to min and back thing that we have going on.
  - Perhaps it could be made so that only one of the two can be worn at a time (so if you have cement socks on, you can't wear the charm and vice versa), or there could be a command attached to activate/deactivate the power, activating a cooldown each time it is toggled.

4) Pig nose (and skinned variants).  Balanceless free tracking on everyone in the area.  Basically a requirement for PvP.  It should at least have a bit of a cost to it.

  - Can't really see any reason that nose could not be adjusted to consume balance/equilibrium?

Shango

Reason why cost to use nose being bad...person's gone by the time you recover, and chasing is now irrelevant. Too many run around like headless chickens as it is as their 'engaging combat' method. Much as I don't enjoy being instantly chased when I've managed to escape the ganksquad, nose being a must-have is for a reason.

Jolanthe

Change purify to a once a month power that allows the brazier to maintain warm, pleasant weather around you wherever you go for the rest of the day. For giggles, add an aural effect to the player's ql desc. Flavourful, fun, not too impactful on PVP.

Rivius

I don't really like the idea of nerfing noses. I remember hit-and-runners being very annoying to chase down, and putting a cost on noses will just bring more frustration.

Lycidas

It already requires being on bal/eq to use, adding any cost to it beyond that just ruins the point. It's not game breaking and it doesn't ruin any strategies.

Enya

Id only see changing noses as part of a broader change to the movement meta making escape less binary aad givnng different classes native ways to deal with runners. 

Shango

So...OTHER than noses, there are still valid concerns.

-Featherweight countering ALL rooting in one action.

-Ilusory Self affecting PK as much as Denizens.

-Nymph Mask affecting loyal mobs necessary for classes to get their kill routes (shadowdancers, moon dancers, nihilists, illuminati, celestines, etc. Easy fix to only function if Masochism is not dropped, i.e. out of combat).

-Wonderbrazier offering Purify to ruin Mage melds, and with the mage rework...eventually...being done, that will need changing regardless so may as well attend to it along with the other artifacts.

-Timeslip being spammable mid combat doing actively what prismatic barrier/Serpent did passively once raised.

Those are some of the biggest offenders off the top of my head.

Steingrim

Shango said:

So...OTHER than noses, there are still valid concerns.

...

-Ilusory Self affecting PK as much as Denizens.

-Nymph Mask affecting loyal mobs necessary for classes to get their kill routes (shadowdancers, moon dancers, nihilists, illuminati, celestines, etc. Easy fix to only function if Masochism is not dropped, i.e. out of combat).

...

Those are some of the biggest offenders off the top of my head.

I still feel like there needs to be some justification as to why these are okay as skills, but, not as artifacts.

On, Nymph, If we're not going to have a meta where x class just simply grinds to a halt y class then I don't think things are better, because only some classes break others.

@Shango pointed out that the skill ones can be killed (and the arena exception seems long gone). Still, wondermask nymph was fairly recently changed and that doesn't seem to be taken into account here. Perhaps further changes are needed.

Shango

Justification lies in its wide-spread availability crippling a lot of prior combat strategies that relied on....*drumroll and shocked gasping from the audience* group tactics to net a kill, many of which oriented around damage application that the skill itself inherently denies outright reducing any combat situation to a mere numbers grind. The long toted group combat that everyone pines for when balancing skills got shot into the gutter when anyone had the ability to nearly double their health, after the buff, so virtual health ranges of most combatants exceeding 20k leaves only insta kill routes as the ONLY viable method to end them in a given conflict to give actual engaging tactics and proceedings for pvp to be engaged in. And given that far too many skillsets as a whole are NOT reliable, or require absurd lengths of time to reach their viability, save for a few select skills unique to only certain orgs (toading to communes as a noted example, the complaints of Sacrifice kills from heavy dust applications slowing down Deathmark curing for another), all directly related to Illusory Self as the primary cause. Before only a handful of people would have possessed such an ability, which came at the cost of being balanced by otherwise less durable Classes (such as bards, who for all their dodgyness, have little in the way of physical protection as the counter to such focused assaults so doubling their health was an effective additional balance for their benefit.

If you would like, I can go into further analysis WHY it is such a problem for PK in general, if it remains still not obvious after that.

As to nymph I do not understand the meaning of your statement unless it was sarcasm. Prior to it being a readily available mask, with enough Crystals invested, it was a skill that existed only within a single loyal mob follower through the Wicca skillset. Kill the nymph, or disloyalty to the wiccan, dealt with in a balanced fashion. As a mask that fires...even while the person has been a soul, I might add, which has been fairly disconcerting to witness and I hope has been fixed since but we know how things get bogged down...on a tic, this has no other means to counter whatsoever beyond staying out of the room of the wearer. Something that functions like that, obviously isn't good for any level of combat, no matter your point of view.

Maligorn

Surely you can see where something isolated to a single skillset (Glamours bards, a very niche choice) isn't as oppressive as every person with $$ having it. Don't be obtuse.

However I feel like Timeslip isn't overbalanced because A. won't work if you're being focused and B. if you're wasting time upping timeslip, whether by artie or by skillset, you're not really doing anything else.

Steingrim

Maligorn said:

Surely you can see where something isolated to a single skillset (Glamours bards, a very niche choice) isn't as oppressive as every person with $$ having it. Don't be obtuse.

However I feel like Timeslip isn't overbalanced because A. won't work if you're being focused and B. if you're wasting time upping timeslip, whether by artie or by skillset, you're not really doing anything else.

I am not looking for 'not as bad', 'not as oppressive', or the like. If it breaks people's instas I'm fairly puzzled as to why anyone should have it.

Innon

Agree with the timeslip points of Maligorn and Steingrim. Timeslip should not counter instakills. Timeslip in the middle of a fight costs balance, and thus it isn't a huge issue in this way.

Steingrim

Shango said:

Justification lies in its wide-spread availability crippling a lot of prior combat strategies that relied on....*drumroll and shocked gasping from the audience* group tactics to net a kill, many of which oriented around damage application that the skill itself inherently denies outright reducing any combat situation to a mere numbers grind. The long toted group combat that everyone pines for when balancing skills got shot into the gutter when anyone had the ability to nearly double their health, after the buff, so virtual health ranges of most combatants exceeding 20k leaves only insta kill routes as the ONLY viable method to end them in a given conflict to give actual engaging tactics and proceedings for pvp to be engaged in. And given that far too many skillsets as a whole are NOT reliable, or require absurd lengths of time to reach their viability, save for a few select skills unique to only certain orgs (toading to communes as a noted example, the complaints of Sacrifice kills from heavy dust applications slowing down Deathmark curing for another), all directly related to Illusory Self as the primary cause. Before only a handful of people would have possessed such an ability, which came at the cost of being balanced by otherwise less durable Classes (such as bards, who for all their dodgyness, have little in the way of physical protection as the counter to such focused assaults so doubling their health was an effective additional balance for their benefit.

If you would like, I can go into further analysis WHY it is such a problem for PK in general, if it remains still not obvious after that.

Yes, that would be the reason for it being placed there. But, my question is what is the justification for it remaining? Are bards so untanky they still need it? Please explain.

If I wasn't clear before, I am sorry, but I just don't see the point in a skill that is said to be so broken that so many are willing to call people stupid, but somehow must not be an issue if only a few people can abuse it.

So do you think it is balanced for bards and if so, can you explain why it is balanced? Or is your stance along the lines of it is okay that some classes are ineffective against others, or something else?

Shango said:

If you would like, I can go into further analysis WHY it is such a problem for PK in general, if it remains still not obvious after that.

As to nymph I do not understand the meaning of your statement unless it was sarcasm. Prior to it being a readily available mask, with enough Crystals invested, it was a skill that existed only within a single loyal mob follower through the Wicca skillset. Kill the nymph, or disloyalty to the wiccan, dealt with in a balanced fashion. As a mask that fires...even while the person has been a soul, I might add, which has been fairly disconcerting to witness and I hope has been fixed since but we know how things get bogged down...on a tic, this has no other means to counter whatsoever beyond staying out of the room of the wearer. Something that functions like that, obviously isn't good for any level of combat, no matter your point of view.

I don't tend to think damage kills should be easy and with as much bitching as there is about imbalance I'm not sure that damage kills are something we want to rush towards (not saying that is what you're saying).

As, I Haven't been in an arena fight in ages I still thought the Nymph was immune in the arena. That it isn't makes your points on Nymph as a skill understandable, and agreeable to me.

So, the last report on wonderNymphTM didn't go far enough? What's your solution?

Innon

Damage kills should be just as viable as mana kills if certain conditions are met. They currently are far from it because of illself. I was going to write a report on this, but one solution to not removing it completely would be allowing it to be changed to protect mana instead of health which could be toggled when cast. So I weave illusoryself (health/mana).

Deichtine

Innon said:

Damage kills should be just as viable as mana kills if certain conditions are met. They currently are far from it because of illself. I was going to write a report on this, but one solution to not removing it completely would be allowing it to be changed to protect mana instead of health which could be toggled when cast. So I weave illusoryself (health/mana).

Illusoryself is only a small part of that issue with damage kills. I do sort of agree with Steingrim in general though. It's too good in most situations even as a skill never mind an artifact. Illusoryself is totally useless vs any team with a mage or glamours bard on it though. Maybe give non illusions people a way to dispel it with power?

If you take out illusoryself totally health pools and healing is still at such a high level that solo damage kills don't really happen except out of situations where the target can not heal their health. 

Eg Dchord stuns long enough to stop all curing to kill. Green Locks prevent all curing etc.

Its sort of an issue not with any 1 single thing as well. There are just so many various buffs that literally every class can be sitting at 13/13 health mana and ego if they are willing to maintain the buffs. With most being able to cap 10 or 13 regen with the right buffs as well. Some people are so tanky that even green locked they take a long time to die what with tumble and high regen shifting out of musicboxes.

If you guys are talking artifact imbalances it may be worth looking at getting rid of a bunch of the extra easy to get buffs like the aethercandies and such.

Lycidas

I would like a list of your buffs that make literally every class able to sit at 13/13 of each vital. Because I've only ever hit 13/13 health as a warrior or when I use everything available, then a disc of life. That also includes having artifact runes.

Maligorn

There is a way to dispel IllusorySelf in Arts, it's just that it costs a whopping 8p, making it very impractical.

Shango

Let's just agree to remove Illusory Self working for PK from the Wonderbrazier and leave it at that. I am not going into why Bards, who have had it well before the sudden introduction of it to an artifact, SHOULD have it...as that is not the point of this thread. Please avoid trying to derail things with even hints of nerfing actual classes when the focus is on artifacts that take their skills to grant it to everyone or similar bent. If you feel yourself that bards shouldn't have it for whatever reason, try to utilize the REPORT system now in place to argue the case. The skills offered via artifact may be themselves broken, but again not what this thread is about at all and an entirely separate discussion. Stay on topic.

Fair on the Timeslip as long as it doesn't stop insta kills going through, which it would for Warriors since ours are modifiers onto normal strikes rather than separate actions like the command to toad someone would be.

Dys

<pre class="CodeBlock"><code><div>*****************************[ Bodyscan - Vitals ]*****************************</div><div>Stat&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Effect&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Value&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Max</div><div>Health&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Health blessing&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(scarlet candy)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3</div><div>Health&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Veteran&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4</div><div>Health&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Endurance&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4</div><div>Health&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Infused food&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (cornucopia or fete)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5</div><div>Health&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Curio power&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(red genie)        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8</div><div>Health&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Satiation&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;10</div><div>Health&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Artifact rune&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;13</div><div>Health&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Licorice Candy&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (goop candy)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;13</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Total&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;13</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</div><div>Mana&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Philosophy&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4</div><div>Mana&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Analytics&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4</div><div>Mana&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Infused food&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5</div><div>Mana&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Curio power&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(blue genie) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8</div><div>Mana&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ceremonies&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;10</div><div>Mana&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Artifact rune&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;12</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Total&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;12</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</div><div>Ego&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Netzach&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2</div><div>Ego&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Populus&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2</div><div>Ego&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Ascendant&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(astrology, random)  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4</div><div>Ego&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Histrionics&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4</div><div>Ego&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Magnetism&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4</div><div>Ego&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Fortuna&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(random) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5</div><div>Ego&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Infused food&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5</div><div>Ego&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Curio power&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (yellow genie)          &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8</div><div>Ego&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Cream Chew Candy&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(goop candy) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;13</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Total&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9</div>

Dys

Ugh... why is that horizontal! It looked fine when I posted it.

*****************************[ Bodyscan - Vitals ]*****************************

Stat                  Effect                                     Value      Max

Health                Health blessing     (scarlet candy)            1        3

Health                Veteran                                        1        4

Health                Endurance                                      1        4

Health                Infused food        (cornucopia or fete)       1        5

Health                Curio power         (red genie)                1        8

Health                Satiation                                      1       10

Health                Artifact rune                                  5       13

Health                Licorice Candy      (goop candy)               3       13

                        Total                                       13

                                                                               

Mana                  Philosophy                                     1        4

Mana                  Analytics                                      1        4

Mana                  Infused food                                   1        5

Mana                  Curio power         (blue genie)               1        8

Mana                  Ceremonies                                     5       10

Mana                  Artifact rune                                  3       12

                        Total                                       12

                                                                               

Ego                   Netzach                                        1        2

Ego                   Populus                                        1        2

Ego                   Ascendant           (astrology, random)        1        4

Ego                   Histrionics                                    1        4

Ego                   Magnetism                                      1        4

Ego                   Fortuna             (random)                   1        5

Ego                   Infused food                                   1        5

Ego                   Curio power          (yellow genie)            1        8

Ego                   Cream Chew Candy     (goop candy)              3       13

                        Total                                        9

Let's see if this works any better.

Stupid thing. There it is with no code tags.

Deichtine

Yea Dys beat me to it with one way. Theres a few of different ways to reach the 10 or 13.

Ignoring the class stuff. Some classes do it easier than other. Warrior can sit at 13/13 health without any consumables.

Veteran, Endurance. Contemplation Analytics, Histrionics and Magnetism. Get everyone to 2. Candies for 5.

Complete the quest to cap 6 across the board with no artis. Add in genies to reach 7 then artifact runes to reach 12+etc. 

That's everyone sitting at 12 from stuff that everyone has access to before you use batons, other buffs, class stuff or brooches.

For example I sit at  12 13 11 without using any consumables as a wiccan. As a Warrior I think I'm 13/12/11 etc

Lycidas

While artifact runes are indeed accessible by everyone, not all have them. Let's keep the discussion based on what most people might have though. Those 5/13 runes are 500cr a piece, so its an investment.

Deichtine

Yea I mean if we're talking about artifacts though.

Innon

Deichtine said:

Innon said:

Damage kills should be just as viable as mana kills if certain conditions are met. They currently are far from it because of illself. I was going to write a report on this, but one solution to not removing it completely would be allowing it to be changed to protect mana instead of health which could be toggled when cast. So I weave illusoryself (health/mana).

Illusoryself is only a small part of that issue with damage kills. I do sort of agree with Steingrim in general though. It's too good in most situations even as a skill never mind an artifact. Illusoryself is totally useless vs any team with a mage or glamours bard on it though. Maybe give non illusions people a way to dispel it with power?

If you take out illusoryself totally health pools and healing is still at such a high level that solo damage kills don't really happen except out of situations where the target can not heal their health. 

Eg Dchord stuns long enough to stop all curing to kill. Green Locks prevent all curing etc.

Its sort of an issue not with any 1 single thing as well. There are just so many various buffs that literally every class can be sitting at 13/13 health mana and ego if they are willing to maintain the buffs. With most being able to cap 10 or 13 regen with the right buffs as well. Some people are so tanky that even green locked they take a long time to die what with tumble and high regen shifting out of musicboxes.

If you guys are talking artifact imbalances it may be worth looking at getting rid of a bunch of the extra easy to get buffs like the aethercandies and such.

I didn't say it would fix everything, but it is a good start. Because illself does take pretty much all damage kill options away. We have several other artifacts that work against damage kills, but none to the extent of illself (vitality). Also, illself doesn't come through on discern/assess like say vital buffs. Vital and Regen buffs are apples and oranges in regards to illself though. 

Shango

Illself has been the largest identified artifact problem since the Nymph mask introduction, so whatever else can be argued as adding up to increase that issue...per artifacts this is the central focus that can be addressed within this thread. 

Maligorn

Steingrim said:

Maligorn said:

Surely you can see where something isolated to a single skillset (Glamours bards, a very niche choice) isn't as oppressive as every person with $$ having it. Don't be obtuse.

However I feel like Timeslip isn't overbalanced because A. won't work if you're being focused and B. if you're wasting time upping timeslip, whether by artie or by skillset, you're not really doing anything else.

I am not looking for 'not as bad', 'not as oppressive', or the like. If it breaks people's instas I'm fairly puzzled as to why anyone should have it.

That's like asking why Trueheal exists. It's an iconic defensive isolated to Celestines and Paladins (and Templars/Illuminati if they're particularly lucky) Jk there's a solstice artifact that shops out trueheal too. Neither wonderbrazier illuself or peppermint trueheal should exist, because those skills are too powerful for the entire game to have them - but it's not fair to nerf the skills that people already had.

First remove Wonderbrazier Illuself/peppermint solstice trueheal, then we can argue whether those skills are too strong. I will 100% assure you that it won't imbalance PvP as it is doing now.

Plus, and you overlooked this again, Glamours is very niche. Like, really niche. Any city bard would be better off going Tarot, and I would venture to say that Dramaturgy is the current optimal tertiary for commune bards.

Shango

I forgot about the Trueheal thing. That much at least is 'balanced' by being once/RL day. But add that to the list since it effects EVERYTHING save Soulless rubs (obviously)