I'm not worried about my attacks getting slowed down, I'm worried about whether this is effective for the wildewood.
Testing with Izekeal briefly earlier I was still able to build wounds and everything fine enough, I just found myself wondering how intuitive is it to make an offense out of something so self defeating? When you count on something proccing from you being hit to be part of your offense you want to be sure that those hits are actually happening.
All the person has to do is stand to defeat the prone when they balance. That's exactly the problem with some of these. Prone, paralysis, neither one contribute meaningfully to the offense as it is currently designed. Both are easy to cure before the next balance comes along, so they aren't exactly hindering (if we chose to look at branches in a more defensive light). Focus body really is just kind of weak on mana drain, particularly at this low proc rate. The only thing paralysis might help with is preventing focus mind to get rid of vertigo, but it doesn't happen frequently enough to expect that to be the case. Your target would have to have clumsiness, vertigo, paralysis all three to stick one of those past a single cure balance, and with the current unreliability whichever of the clumsiness or vertigo made it through is probably gone the exact moment herb balance comes back (pretty quickly). I suppose you could always start glinshari, hope they proc the paralysis pretty close to it going off, and then slip in a trample.
The concept is really cool. I can even understand the decision to go with the affs the designers chose. Stuff that can synergize some, but not so much that treepeople are going to walk in and insta overtop of a bunch of affs others are throwing down anyways. Solo, though, there isn't enough stacking to get these methods to stick. The manaspike double haegl thing is interesting, but still very limited and as mentioned there are lots of people that it will never be effective against.
Oh. Well, it's not [particularly effective]. The aqua sheens aren't particularly useful to them either, outside of the ego pressure one (for TPs, especially).
However, we're stuck with backlash afflictions, according to Estarra. What afflictions would you suggest? I've already got stupidity on the list, anything else? Granted, stupidity is likely to be immediately cured also, but hey.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Wonder what effect it would have if anytime you are hit by the backlash of a branch or a mist if your cure balance is suddenly thrown off so you can't immediately cure it... hmm...
It'd have to be thrown off for quite some time, that seems like it'd cause a lot more problems than it'd solve. Having a chance to stop ALL herb curing for a time is too powerful. It stopping.. clumsyness would do nothing, but if they (reasonably) were planning on ignoring the weak affliction to cure (for instance) slickness given by a warrior for a slitthroat, and are thrown off herb balance...
Report so far: (question marks indicate requests for input)
RACE CHANGES:
+2 con (to 16)
+1 cha (12)
-1 str (16)
+1 dex (10)
-1 fire weakness (2)
-1 elect weakness (0)
?=Lower eq cost on perspective to 2 seconds.
=Add eq-less GLANCE GROUND when perspective is in trees.
=Add emotes to the things heard from both elevations.
CLASS SIMPLE / "BUG" FIXES:
=Add an unlink syntax for coppice.
=Change fawn (Wildecall) to only trigger when mana is below 96%. No more spammy triggering off walkingtrance and similar!
GENERAL CHANGES
=Allow vines in any terrain.
=Add mulching and totemcarving. It's not fair to non-Wildewoods as it is.
=Add a highjump-type skill. Knocks a target out of the trees, bypassing cling.
?=Add in a good second bashing attack. Comparable to the chalice reagent attack is asking a lot (As that ability is INCREDIBLY powerful), but a 100% damage type that isn't commonly resisted would be nice
SPECIFIC SKILLS/MECHANICS:
Flowers:
?=Change the affliction list to
Broken leg, slickness, Fractured Skull, Blindness
OR
Suggestions? Some odd kind of herbstack?
Branches:
=Change the proning branch to a random affliction cured.
?=Change the paralysis branch to stupidity.
?=Change the clumsyness branch to.... suggestions?
Wildecall:
= Change into a standard, untimer-d 10p defense. Unstrippable, not lost on death.
= Add WILDEWOOD WILDECALL <animal>.
= Drop the delay (currently anywhere from 30-150 seconds depending on timer of def)
= Balance each animal from there.
Animals:
=Change wolverine and treefrog to trigger off the user attacking.
=Change firefly to also trigger off the user attacking, random mental aff? (Fireflies are currently redundant with badger.)
All of the barks are pretty fine, though the poison dmp resistance is quite wasted on totemists, who already have a stack of that sort of dmp (that can be fixed in regular reporting). The only one I want a bit of input on is the Moonhart bark. Perhaps totemcarving could come in at this bark. Instead of taking 5% power. it could be a channeled action of short duration? Say, 10 seconds or so. Or both power cost and time cost, whatever.
The aim with the flower afflictions I've suggested is to give a bit of hindering. You need to decide if you want to immediately cure slickness (which may be hinder your attack, but is helping our offense) or if you'd like to immediately cure blindness (which isn't helping our defense as much, but is hindering your attack), and so on.
Of course, keep in mind that once flowers go down (due to spores/adjuvants) they won't be timed together anymore, unless the wildewood waits and hits exactly the right time on re-raising them on the 10 second tick.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Just make the garland work like an athame/cudgel rather than vines anywhere.
I'd like to suggest adding much more constitution, maybe to 15 or so. That would put you on par with Krokani constitution. Also, perhaps a 13 on charisma.
(edit: didn't see you already had 16 or so on your list. Carry on)
=Add a highjump-type skill. Knocks a target out of the trees, bypassing cling.
Maybe some way to shake trees on a lower skill level?
Branches:
=Change the proning branch to a random affliction cured.
?=Change the paralysis branch to stupidity.
?=Change the clumsyness branch to.... suggestions?
I'm not in favor of dropping prone, since I think it would go well with Stagstomp. It would also go well with the stupidity. For clumsiness, maybe switch in narcolepsy? It would be a bit much with a dreamweaver, but a kafe cure isn't that bad with the rest of this, and it would possibly add to the prone for more stomping
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Didja read my post? Both of those race changes are already proposed! (1 less cha, 1 more con than you proposed)
As far as branches go, I'd really like to try and move away from effects that really only target monks/warriors to more general purpose stuff. That'd be why both the paralysis and prone (which only will defend against an attack if that attack was made by a combo user) were on the list to be shifted out. It may be a decent idea to only remove one of these, so that the list of branch effects becomes prone, broken limb, aff cure, stupidity?
Keep in mind that narcolepsy only ticks every 3 seconds or so on a random timer. That can be quite a window for curing for a single prone!
Wonder what effect it would have if anytime you are hit by the backlash of a branch or a mist if your cure balance is suddenly thrown off so you can't immediately cure it... hmm...
@Estarra Depending on the length of the balance being thrown off, this can extend the affliction given up to the next attack given by the attacker, which I suppose is the ultimate goal. It'd also hinder the attack and thus lower the subsequent effectiveness of the branches as Shikha put forth, something I hadn't considered myself, but putting that aside, generally speaking it will slow the target's affliction curing of all afflictions over time, assuming he continues to hit you (in a 1v1, in groups the new spec will obviously be pushed lower on the priority list, and whether that's a fair exchange is up for debate). Generally speaking, it's adds some help to the spec's offensive afflicting capability, which seem to be the goal here. Thankfully, because it reduces its own probability to proc (by hindering the target's ability to attack) and is uncontrollable by the user, it's unlikely to be abused, and impossible to be stacked, as long as the time of the cure balance being thrown off is reasonable. Not sure if this alone will make the other aspects of the class viable, but if the users think this will be a fun addition to their combat, I'd say go for it.
It still doesn't address the lack of the spec's defensive abilities, a problem which may be a little more urgent for this spec in particular due to their racial weaknesses. Nor does it address my concern about it breaking combos, but we'll put that aside for now as well. These issues can theoretically be tackled elsewhere.
Other than that, the rest of Enyalida's proposed changes doesn't look too bad, on paper at least. I personally haven't sparred enough to say either way.
I just have one suggestion for the perspective thing. If the eq cost is to be kept, which is reasonable, you might want to consider removing the third-party message for changing perspective (if there is one). This allows a wildewood to change perspective without alerting their target, allowing them to hit once before the target spams "climb down". Of course, this also is a buff to the wildewood's ability to dodge out of the room without alerting his opponent. Furthermore, in a team fight, it will buy precious time for his team. Obviously, this will also further lower the priority of a wildewood to be targetted in a group, but if the spec's main design goal is for 1v1, this probably isn't a big deal.
For someone who prefers logical, measured arguments, that reads as rather snarky, considering that no one in this thread has even implied that you were "terrible" about anything.
In thinking about it again, I like the idea of treehug pulling the target onto the hugger's elevation. That better justifies the faeblossom cost, too!
My impression (purely from reading the design alongside the others) was that Treehug was intended to be the damage equivalent of a gilded chalice spray (in terms of damage formula), 100% of a given type, and a limb break to compensate for the weaker damage type, with the standard 1 sap per attack.
Whether it functions that way, or if that was Estarra's actual intention, is unbeknownst to me. That's how it read alongside Aquachem to me, anyways, and why I thought it was a pretty fine attack.
I really think 100% asphyx isn't so grand with hold breath. I don't think blunt is too terrible for bashing, most things aren't resistant to both cutting and blunt.
Maybe we should consider changing Garland's attack to cutting/magic instead of blunt/magic, though, for the variation.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
In thinking about it again, I like the idea of treehug pulling the target onto the hugger's elevation. That better justifies the faeblossom cost, too!
My impression (purely from reading the design alongside the others) was that Treehug was intended to be the damage equivalent of a gilded chalice spray (in terms of damage formula), 100% of a given type, and a limb break to compensate for the weaker damage type, with the standard 1 sap per attack.
Whether it functions that way, or if that was Estarra's actual intention, is unbeknownst to me. That's how it read alongside Aquachem to me, anyways, and why I thought it was a pretty fine attack.
Well... right now it's a 50/50 asphyx/blunt.
Though iron bark is more generally useful than the surging globe I suppose.
Looking at Xiels site, it looks like there are more listed denizens resistant to blunt than there are those with weakness to it or neither. At a glance it looks like it is possibly the second most resisted damage type after excorable.
That it breaks bones is cool for pvp, but from a pve view point we're looking at a heavily resisted damage type making up half of an attack that costs us reagents every time we use it.
Though this might be more an issue with Aquamancers getting well divinus for all the good things about it. It's probably going to make all the equivalent abilities in the other skills look really pathetic in comparison even if they are pure damage types.
Well if the worry is that treehug blows, I see no problem giving it a chance to reduce the duration of hold breath, but I think that idea could be envoyed post special report.
Frankly, I have a lot of thoughts on this skillset myself, after having thoroughly tested many elements of it. The race stuff I pretty much have in agreement with what's been said above. I do think that the eq cost for changing perspective is a bit obscene, particularly when you consider that climb up/climb down have no associated cost. Otherwise, I'll echo what is above.
Large issues:
Mana drain mechanic Spores
Let me first look at the aspect of mana drain. There are five things in this skillset that support mana drain.
Bluebell Flower (~900? mana drain per tick. Scales with mana max? Haven't yet tested) Faeblossom Flower (Chance of faerie fire - focus spirit cure. Desirable cure due to it boosting Glinshari spore) Mossy Branches (10% chance of paralysis on damaging attack) Bluehorn Spore (Causes Succumb - delayed reishi cure) Hartpine Spore (Causes Mana Barbs)
All in all, the simple issue here is that there is no good way to stick the afflictions of succumb and mana barbs. If it were possible to hold these two on the target in any way, I would see them as viable tactics in battle. But, the best anybody has come up with so far is a slight stacking of reishi cures. With Succumb costing us two of our passive flowers and 5p, it's not worth the attempt to try and stick it.
Mana Barbs can be of some minor use, primarily for a runist willing to prepare and time with a double-haegl. Even then, the efficacy is limited to bursting out those with somewhat lower health status.
The forcing of focus cures is limited, and even then, useful only if you manage to stick mana barbs. Otherwise it's a mana drain that supports no other kill method aside from Dreamweaving's Eternal Sleep, which has long been shown to be difficult if not impossible without the benefits that sap provides. It is simply too easy to heal mana back up without heavy health pressure, or something else to slow curing such as an affliction lock.
In attempts to force these two to stick, I've examined affliction locks in the game. We cannot perform any of them. Sap locks are viable with various terts as a user of Druidry. Soft locks of anorexia/slickness/asthma are not possible due to the inability to cause anorexia, and a lack of way to apply slickness aside from beast spit.
As it stands now, the mana mechanic is almost useless for Wildewood, except under very specific circumstances. I'll make my adjustment proposals in a moment.
Second issue of note: Spores.
The spores are either very powerful or very weak, with little middle ground. I'll address them one at a time. As precursor, all the damage was tested on me, with 69/68 armour and the following bodyscan:
Bluehorn: Uses Bluebell and Horned Lily flowers. 5p. Damage is 50% blunt, 50% magic. Averaged 2216 damage. Causes Succumb. Unlike Moondance Succumb, the mana drain does not tick immediately, but starts on a timer. Instant use of reishi will provide a cure before a tick of this affliction.
Hartpine: Uses Bluebell and Moontear flowers. 5p. Damage is 50% cutting, 50% poison. Averaged 2911 damage. Causes Mana Spikes.
Flowerpower: Uses Bluebell, Horned Lily, and Moontear flowers. 5p. Damage is 50% blunt, 50% magic. Averaged 990 damage. Causes paralysis and (1? Need to clarify) broken limb.
Glinshari: Uses Bluebell, Horned Lily, Moontear, and Faeblossom flowers. 10p Damage is 50% blunt, 50% magic. Averaged 4984 damage, 0 afflictions. Damage is boosted by each of the following: Broken Leg (first counts, second does not), Broken Arm (first counts, second does not), vertigo, faerie fire, and clumsiness. Causes 1.5s of stun per applicable affliction.
Glinshari is obviously used to kill. As it stands now, the damage is very high, and will drop most people. The Flowerpower spore is of minimal utility, due to the damage being extremely low (particularly for a 5p ability) and the affliction capability also being slight. Hartpine's damage is quite nice, and the effect of mana barbs is useful, but not in conjunction with a Wildewood's offense, unless they happen to be a runist. Bluehorn's damage is decent, but the affliction of succumb is not worthwhile. The fact that all four spores also use bluebell makes it difficult to use spores in any speed. Testing shows that you can start a bluehorn, then regrow the bluebell and start a hartpine immediately thereafter. However, since succumb starts to tick 3 seconds after Bluehorn fires, and at best you can fire a Hartpine 8 seconds later than starting the Bluehorn, it is difficult to take advantage of this.
If things are to stay as they are, I can see one possible way to take advantage of Bluehorn/Hartpine together. First, change succumb so that it starts to tick 4 seconds after Bluehorn fires, instead of 3 seconds. Also I propose the following changes to Hartpine: Adjust the flower cost from bluehorn/moontear to moontear/faeblossom. Also reverse the order of learning in Wildewood so that faeblossom and hartpine are reversed.
This would allow a Wildewood to use Bluehorn at 0s, use Hartpine at 4s, have Bluehorn fire at 10s, Hartpine at 14s, and succumb tick at 14s, stacking the damage from the two spores and also causing a little damage from mana barbs. In turn, it would also provide a little boost to Dreamweavers seeking to pressure mana by increasing health damage, and supplement runists looking to capitalize on double-haegl slings. By no means would it be a guaranteed kill, but it would offer (to those capable of timing it properly) another alternative.
Flowerpower...I'm really not sure what to do with. It's the second costliest spore, and entirely disappointing. The damage is low and the afflictions negligible. I almost want to rework it in entirety. I understand it is meant as a hindrance, but even in a group I'd be hesitant to use it. I think I'd like to see that aspect of it enhanced, and as such would propose that it break multiple (perhaps all four?) limbs as well as give a brief blackout. This shouldn't allow it to kill, but it would be a nice hindering ability.
Glinshari. Now here's the one that I think is presently too powerful. As a stand alone spore it does excellent damage. If you tack on afflictions, the damage quickly grows to a ludicrous amount. Therefore, I have the following suggestions for it: Adjust the damage scale for Glinshari. 50% at 0 afflictions, 60% at 1, 70% at 2, 80% at 3, 90% at 4, 100% (instant kill) at 5 afflictions. Disallow an increase of damage within a linked demesne. The stun currently scales from 0, 1.5, 3.0, 4.5, 6.0, 7.5 seconds. With damage adjusted as above, it'd be possible to kill using a 3+ affliction Glinshari, while 0-2 would be more difficult. Considering that it's 10p and kills all four of our flowers, I feel it should be a reasonable kill if we can stick these afflictions.
Branches I'm fine with things as they are proposed above.
Barks are ok, but I would change two of them: Evergreen currently gives 20 poison DMP. As mentioned, poison DMP is already easy for us to gain high levels of due to snake totem. I would propose the following three solutions: 1: Increased chance to resist poisons. 2: Natural clotting (akin to Kingdom? Evergreen, always retaining colour. Blood doesn't flow easily from a tree anyway.) 3: Change of DMP, perhaps with an option of 3 choices (including poison) based on the Oak, Hornbeam, and Birch that Hartstone Druids can summon as saplings. Open to suggestions here.
Moonhart Bark. Frankly, this is another one of the skills which I just scratch my head at. Conceptually I can understand it. Mechanically it is nearly useless. Some have proposed a bit of tree-tending instead of things as they are now. I can't quite reconcile that with the concept of Wildewood, but I'll grant it as an option. My own proposed solutions are as follows: 1: Affix a rune to your bark, as Hartstone once attached to the Living Totems carved out of Moonhart Trees. However, instead of granting injury, the rune's power will occasionally protect you from that very affliction! 2: In addition to above, allow Wildewood to 'set down roots', disallowing any movement (and increasing resistance to forced movement) but allowing the affixed rune to flare with power and attack your focused enemy every 11 seconds. 3s EQ cost to set/remove roots. 3: ... 4: Profit! 5: Ignoring 3/4, tree-tending suggestions as above.
Ok, on to my last topic for the moment, the attacks.
Treelimb Spray <target> 50% Blunt/50% Magic. Squirrelly wrath! I kinda love this attack, the text makes me giggle each time I read it. I do think it's a bit weaker than my cudgel, but I think that's due as much to damage type as anything. Here's the bit I don't understand. How is this a magic attack? That said, I think it's slightly stronger as blunt/magic than it'd be as pure blunt. I can't logically think of any reason to use anything aside from blunt, either. All in all, I don't have too much issue with this. With Iron bark's buff to blunt, I'd rather keep this blunt than change it to cutting anyway. I'd be curious to see what people suggest for a damage type spread, however.
Treehug <target> 50% Blunt/50% Asphyxiation. 1 broken limb at random on PCs. 1 Faeblossom sap. Well, text is a tad bit blander, but still amusing in concept. Damage types are ok for hunting, particularly with blunt boost from Iron bark. But with the sap cost, I'd never use it for hunting. The expense is just too great in the long run. Asphyxiation is a weak damage type in many ways for PvP, due to the prevalence of Hold Breath. That's one mechanic I think most people would like to see go the way of Allhex. With that said, in the absence of other available boosts to Glinshari (Depends on tert!), having treehug to hit with just prior to the attack can be nice, since it'll guarantee the bump up in quality of the attack due to the broken limb. Once again, not sure what damage types would be reasonable to swap here, if necessary at all. No significant issue with this attack.
Well, that's what I have to say on the skillset at the moment. I may have more in mind when I wake up tomorrow. Don't hate!
Actually, two more quick things. Wildecall change as above sounds good. For Treehug, good for PvP. Not for PvE. Maybe have Treelimb Spray throw a mix of acorns and the old-favorite lightning bugs, blunt/electrical damage?
Treelimb Spray <target> 50% Blunt/50% Magic. Squirrelly wrath! I kinda love this attack, the text makes me giggle each time I read it. I do think it's a bit weaker than my cudgel, but I think that's due as much to damage type as anything. Here's the bit I don't understand. How is this a magic attack? That said, I think it's slightly stronger as blunt/magic than it'd be as pure blunt. I can't logically think of any reason to use anything aside from blunt, either. All in all, I don't have too much issue with this. With Iron bark's buff to blunt, I'd rather keep this blunt than change it to cutting anyway. I'd be curious to see what people suggest for a damage type spread, however.
Treehug <target> 50% Blunt/50% Asphyxiation. 1 broken limb at random on PCs. 1 Faeblossom sap. Well, text is a tad bit blander, but still amusing in concept. Damage types are ok for hunting, particularly with blunt boost from Iron bark. But with the sap cost, I'd never use it for hunting. The expense is just too great in the long run. Asphyxiation is a weak damage type in many ways for PvP, due to the prevalence of Hold Breath. That's one mechanic I think most people would like to see go the way of Allhex. With that said, in the absence of other available boosts to Glinshari (Depends on tert!), having treehug to hit with just prior to the attack can be nice, since it'll guarantee the bump up in quality of the attack due to the broken limb. Once again, not sure what damage types would be reasonable to swap here, if necessary at all. No significant issue with this attack.
Well, that's what I have to say on the skillset at the moment. I may have more in mind when I wake up tomorrow. Don't hate!
For spray, if you check out the 2nd person message the nuts make contact then break apart to additionally hit with energy.
Just after a quick scan of the bashing abilities of all the guilds, except warriors and monks, it looks like the only skill that has any real cross over in damage types on attacks is the celestines because both share divinus, everyone else seems to get new damage types with their second attack.
Likely to increase the number of possible hunting grounds. Looks like of the 34 things that aren't reistant to both attacks eight would require treehugging. (Virgins and Eagles being the only two that have weakness to both damage types)
As for tree tending stuff, sorry but there really needs to be something there. Whether it be the Moonhart bark or something that is added in, I really don't think that it's fair to saddle, maybe, half a guild with the responsibility of maintaining the trees for the whole forest.
Passive slickness, broken limb, fractured skull, with blindness is just a little too powerful in my opinion.
These afflictions stack in a really powerful way. The fractured skull will take three actions to cure an affliction that, on average, blocks 1/3 actions (outr calamus, eat calamus, apply mending to head being preferable to arnica due to herb balance being taken already and the arnica cure requiring a fourth action). Broken leg and blindness will both be stuck until the next balance comes along. I used to use slickness+fracture skull some when I was BC tracking and it works awesome, but that was as an active attack with only a chance to proc one aff, even smaller for both. As a timed passive that is a guaranteed hit this would absolutely wreck people.
It is every 10 seconds! The idea was to have it be a pretty strong stack, as we have little we can do actively and have to rely primarily on the passives to stack affs for our kill method. Even looking at this stack, you'll have all of it cured in 1 second! Redo actions that get frac'd away, they don't take your cure balance. Out rift calamus, eat calamus, apply mending to head, apply health. Now only the broken limb is still in effect, and it's less than a second out of the 10 it takes for the passives to tick! After 1 second, your mend balance comes back and you cure the limb. With your warrior combo, it's not guaranteed, but it's also every 3 seconds. 1-2 seconds (including broken limb) out of 3 is a large proportion, 1-2 seconds out of 10 is a much smaller one.
Anyways, what stack would you propose?
EDIT: Keep in mind that our damage is low-ish, and our only active skillset attack (that doesn't disrupt these passives) breaks a single limb on a 4 second balance. Only one tert really has any way to disrupt the curing of this stack too, shamanism with bone trance, and possibly eco with poisons?
Yeah, it's also passive, meaning you can time all sorts of other attacks/afflictions to pile onto that. Including but not limited to stuns, impatience+stupidity, extra limb breaks, damage, etc.
An ecologist could easily drop an herbbane, a well timed smudge, some fetish poisons, and beast spitting to really ramp up the sticking power what you are putting on people in an extremely short amount of time, and still manage to treehug in all of it too.
I'm not sure the passive afflictions need to change all that much. They aren't meant to be locking down an opponent or really hinder them all that much in any way. They are just buildup fodder for one of the two kill methods in the skillset. A single broken limb and faeriefire together when a glinshari finishes will nearly kill anyone, along with the stun you can just hug them to death. Or a runist could sling some sensitivity right as it goes off, which ought to do the trick. You can also beast spit some clumsiness just for that extra kicker. Glinshari damage is massive and is basically instant death if you have 3 of the right affs on them, and that's without the sensitivity. (multiple broken limbs don't seem to ramp it up all that much after the first, but the first is still a good addition)
I think we're assuming here that Glinshari (and all the spores) are changed to work on a variable timer set by the caster, scaled to power cost, and that the damage on Glinshari is tuned to not do something like 90% damage with one/two affs (which everyone agrees is over the top) and is instead changed to be a finisher you have to work to stick affs with instead of a 'walk into the room, activate, drop one aff, profit' skill.
Right now (without changing any of the passives or introducing more active attacks) the skillset has no hindering, no curing pressure, and weak to harmless afflictions. In other words, there is no buildup! There's just trying to spam affs right before our one overpowered skill fires (and hoping that your opponent doesn't know how to count/shield/love potion/move away). Assuming that the runaway damage is fixed (it should be), not buffing the passives is going to leave wildewoods in even more of a big hole as far as viability goes.
I guess I'm just confused at your comment that the passives do no hindering and that's alright, but they somehow build towards a kill! Neither of those statements is really true?
EDIT: What I'm trying to say here is that even if dropping a glinshari, waiting, and then using a tert skill to give affs so close to the tick you have no time to cure them may be a semi-viable strategy, it's a stupid one that the skillset should be moved away from.
Introducing a mix of good passives (still only 4 affs every 10 seconds, on a single target in your room) and changing the effects of some of the spores so that they can be used in a way other than a 'finisher' so that we have some measure of hinderin, and a measure of cure pressure. That would change the focus of the class away from "Hope to dear god that Glinshari hits and you can spam bone trance right before it does so, to kill them straight away" to "Use my cure pressuring and hindering to build up to a place where I can use my finisher and there's a decent chance of getting the affs actually sticking without having to abuse wonky damage scaling."
Like I said, the combo I devised is intended to be a good burst of hindering! Look at the mage melder classes and their 1 second stun to every enemy in the room every 10 seconds! That's really a better hinder than this combo, tbh. However, it is a strong combination. Swapping out the blindness for another aff with less hindering combination would be the easiest fix.
On the other hand, leaving the afflictions as they are doesn't seem like a really acceptable solution. Faeriefire/asthma, vertigo, weakness, minor mana drain doesn't accomplish anything! It doesn't pressure any cures, nor does it even force sipping for several ticks! Two of the affs (of 3 each 10 seconds) are extreme low priority affs, one only effecting warriors/monks period, the other only stopping people from climbing to run away (which they can easily do by moving rooms, we have no hindering affs!). This combo can be cured all on different balances too, so there is no stacking involved!
-Runists can in theory captilize on the asthma with an impatience, paralysis stack, but to what end? The afflicted can still apply melancholic, smoke coltsfoot, focus body all in one stacked command!
-Dreamweavers can't use any of those afflictions at all, all their affs are herb cures that take a while to tick, giving lots of time to eat herbs and focus them off (eliminating the meager 2 aff ''herbstack'"), and the manadrain from doing so and the passive drain tick is too low to proc eternalsleep, even with metawake and channel being used aggressively.
-Shaman 'kill' is not particularly viable. The 50% health kill has so many qualifiers on it that it's never been used, though it's been attempted a few times. It would run into the same problem as the above, and would have to rely on trying to slap a bone trance down right before glinshari, which by all rights shouldn't work.
-Ecologists have access to poisons to try and get more stacking out of the current situation, and really it gets it done the best. Even then, all you've got is poison attacks with a 15% chance to fail attached, and a 50%(?) chance for a herb cure to fail (not taking herb balance, iirc, but doing ~200 damage? Haven't been an ecologist in years), to try and slap on as many of the Glinshari affs right before your glinshari fires, the same situation as Shamans. Even still, you don't really have any affs that synergize well, and to hinder the opponent from simply walking away, you'd have to be spamming mantakaya every balance (And still would fail). Yes, walking away is a problem with every class, but all other classes with a timer kill either have some method of first locking you down, or various methods of ensuring you can't leave the room, like rubble/various carcer-like effects/perfect fifth/demesne effects that hinder.
Sorry to get all ranty, but the simplest way to fix this class while avoiding any new mechanics or the introduction of several completely new active abilities is to make the passives more.. meaningful. I think the combo I picked (sans blindness, let's say) is comparable to other salve pressure passive classes (Pyros and Geos). While the effects are harder to stop, they only hit a single person, go off timing when spores are used, and hinder you overall for less time (Than the geo-mense with prone/stun/broken limb/damage/sickening). I just don't think that the random smattering of affs is very viable! So, alternate suggestions? I left a nice blank spot for that very thing!
RE: Totemcarving. Really, it's a problem that totemcarving doesn't exist in this skillset, and there isn't any convincing reason there shouldn't be some method for wildewoods to turn elders into totems. I think it would be a great addition to have a unique way to do this, instead of just having totemcarving as it is in normal druidry, though that would be easier on resources to implement!
The basic idea I had for that is as follows:
Make the new skill ("totemshaping", perhaps?) cost less power, but have a time investment of some sort. You start 'totemshaping' as a channeled action taking 10 seconds, as you hoom the elder into shaping itself into a totem! The totem could even have a different looking desc, reflecting its different source! The goal (making it so that one portion of the guild isn't saddled with all of the traditional 'druid' tasks, while the rest are deprived of what, for some, is a major identifying part of what it means to be a druid) is achieved, but in a unique way!
I understand what you are saying with the hindering, but a fractured skull isn't going to prevent a person from leaving either. It also represents a serious divergence from the "What it's like to fight a tree" theme. These are spores, how do they break our skulls?
It'd be interesting to see something like an a + b = c affliction chance added to some abilities, things that are hindering. Could provide a buildup method for hindering a target for the glinshari while mostly preserving the current ability mechanics and the RP concept that's been presented as "What it's like to fight a tree".
Examples:
Prone branch hitting while already clumsy would cause someone to fall wrong and give severed spine.
If treehug would break a limb that was already broken it gets mangled instead (too OP for group hugs??)
Vertigo spore tic hitting a target while on tree elevation causes something special/additional.
Comments
Testing with Izekeal briefly earlier I was still able to build wounds and everything fine enough, I just found myself wondering how intuitive is it to make an offense out of something so self defeating? When you count on something proccing from you being hit to be part of your offense you want to be sure that those hits are actually happening.
All the person has to do is stand to defeat the prone when they balance. That's exactly the problem with some of these. Prone, paralysis, neither one contribute meaningfully to the offense as it is currently designed. Both are easy to cure before the next balance comes along, so they aren't exactly hindering (if we chose to look at branches in a more defensive light). Focus body really is just kind of weak on mana drain, particularly at this low proc rate. The only thing paralysis might help with is preventing focus mind to get rid of vertigo, but it doesn't happen frequently enough to expect that to be the case. Your target would have to have clumsiness, vertigo, paralysis all three to stick one of those past a single cure balance, and with the current unreliability whichever of the clumsiness or vertigo made it through is probably gone the exact moment herb balance comes back (pretty quickly). I suppose you could always start glinshari, hope they proc the paralysis pretty close to it going off, and then slip in a trample.
The concept is really cool. I can even understand the decision to go with the affs the designers chose. Stuff that can synergize some, but not so much that treepeople are going to walk in and insta overtop of a bunch of affs others are throwing down anyways. Solo, though, there isn't enough stacking to get these methods to stick. The manaspike double haegl thing is interesting, but still very limited and as mentioned there are lots of people that it will never be effective against.
Report so far: (question marks indicate requests for input)
=Add a highjump-type skill. Knocks a target out of the trees, bypassing cling.
It still doesn't address the lack of the spec's defensive abilities, a problem which may be a little more urgent for this spec in particular due to their racial weaknesses. Nor does it address my concern about it breaking combos, but we'll put that aside for now as well. These issues can theoretically be tackled elsewhere.
Other than that, the rest of Enyalida's proposed changes doesn't look too bad, on paper at least. I personally haven't sparred enough to say either way.
I just have one suggestion for the perspective thing. If the eq cost is to be kept, which is reasonable, you might want to consider removing the third-party message for changing perspective (if there is one). This allows a wildewood to change perspective without alerting their target, allowing them to hit once before the target spams "climb down". Of course, this also is a buff to the wildewood's ability to dodge out of the room without alerting his opponent. Furthermore, in a team fight, it will buy precious time for his team. Obviously, this will also further lower the priority of a wildewood to be targetted in a group, but if the spec's main design goal is for 1v1, this probably isn't a big deal.
P.S.
For someone who prefers logical, measured arguments, that reads as rather snarky, considering that no one in this thread has even implied that you were "terrible" about anything.
Maybe we should consider changing Garland's attack to cutting/magic instead of blunt/magic, though, for the variation.
Large issues:
Mana drain mechanic
Spores
Let me first look at the aspect of mana drain. There are five things in this skillset that support mana drain.
Bluebell Flower (~900? mana drain per tick. Scales with mana max? Haven't yet tested)
Faeblossom Flower (Chance of faerie fire - focus spirit cure. Desirable cure due to it boosting Glinshari spore)
Mossy Branches (10% chance of paralysis on damaging attack)
Bluehorn Spore (Causes Succumb - delayed reishi cure)
Hartpine Spore (Causes Mana Barbs)
All in all, the simple issue here is that there is no good way to stick the afflictions of succumb and mana barbs. If it were possible to hold these two on the target in any way, I would see them as viable tactics in battle. But, the best anybody has come up with so far is a slight stacking of reishi cures. With Succumb costing us two of our passive flowers and 5p, it's not worth the attempt to try and stick it.
Mana Barbs can be of some minor use, primarily for a runist willing to prepare and time with a double-haegl. Even then, the efficacy is limited to bursting out those with somewhat lower health status.
The forcing of focus cures is limited, and even then, useful only if you manage to stick mana barbs. Otherwise it's a mana drain that supports no other kill method aside from Dreamweaving's Eternal Sleep, which has long been shown to be difficult if not impossible without the benefits that sap provides. It is simply too easy to heal mana back up without heavy health pressure, or something else to slow curing such as an affliction lock.
In attempts to force these two to stick, I've examined affliction locks in the game. We cannot perform any of them. Sap locks are viable with various terts as a user of Druidry. Soft locks of anorexia/slickness/asthma are not possible due to the inability to cause anorexia, and a lack of way to apply slickness aside from beast spit.
As it stands now, the mana mechanic is almost useless for Wildewood, except under very specific circumstances. I'll make my adjustment proposals in a moment.
Second issue of note: Spores.
The spores are either very powerful or very weak, with little middle ground. I'll address them one at a time. As precursor, all the damage was tested on me, with 69/68 armour and the following bodyscan:
***********************[ BodyScan - Resistances Brief ]************************
Type Base DMP Total DMP Resistance
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All 0 - -
Elemental 0 - -
Cosmic 10 - -
Cutting 40 40 30%
Blunt 40 40 30%
Asphyxiation 15 15 15%
Poison 56 56 35%
Psychic 30 30 25%
Magical 42 42 30%
Cold 60 60 36%
Electricity 35 35 27%
Fire 40 40 30%
Divinus 0 10 10%
Excorable 0 10 10%
*******************************************************************************
Bluehorn:
Uses Bluebell and Horned Lily flowers. 5p.
Damage is 50% blunt, 50% magic. Averaged 2216 damage.
Causes Succumb. Unlike Moondance Succumb, the mana drain does not tick immediately, but starts on a timer. Instant use of reishi will provide a cure before a tick of this affliction.
Hartpine:
Uses Bluebell and Moontear flowers. 5p.
Damage is 50% cutting, 50% poison. Averaged 2911 damage.
Causes Mana Spikes.
Flowerpower:
Uses Bluebell, Horned Lily, and Moontear flowers. 5p.
Damage is 50% blunt, 50% magic. Averaged 990 damage.
Causes paralysis and (1? Need to clarify) broken limb.
Glinshari:
Uses Bluebell, Horned Lily, Moontear, and Faeblossom flowers. 10p
Damage is 50% blunt, 50% magic. Averaged 4984 damage, 0 afflictions.
Damage is boosted by each of the following: Broken Leg (first counts, second does not), Broken Arm (first counts, second does not), vertigo, faerie fire, and clumsiness.
Causes 1.5s of stun per applicable affliction.
Glinshari is obviously used to kill. As it stands now, the damage is very high, and will drop most people. The Flowerpower spore is of minimal utility, due to the damage being extremely low (particularly for a 5p ability) and the affliction capability also being slight. Hartpine's damage is quite nice, and the effect of mana barbs is useful, but not in conjunction with a Wildewood's offense, unless they happen to be a runist. Bluehorn's damage is decent, but the affliction of succumb is not worthwhile. The fact that all four spores also use bluebell makes it difficult to use spores in any speed. Testing shows that you can start a bluehorn, then regrow the bluebell and start a hartpine immediately thereafter. However, since succumb starts to tick 3 seconds after Bluehorn fires, and at best you can fire a Hartpine 8 seconds later than starting the Bluehorn, it is difficult to take advantage of this.
If things are to stay as they are, I can see one possible way to take advantage of Bluehorn/Hartpine together. First, change succumb so that it starts to tick 4 seconds after Bluehorn fires, instead of 3 seconds. Also I propose the following changes to Hartpine: Adjust the flower cost from bluehorn/moontear to moontear/faeblossom. Also reverse the order of learning in Wildewood so that faeblossom and hartpine are reversed.
This would allow a Wildewood to use Bluehorn at 0s, use Hartpine at 4s, have Bluehorn fire at 10s, Hartpine at 14s, and succumb tick at 14s, stacking the damage from the two spores and also causing a little damage from mana barbs. In turn, it would also provide a little boost to Dreamweavers seeking to pressure mana by increasing health damage, and supplement runists looking to capitalize on double-haegl slings. By no means would it be a guaranteed kill, but it would offer (to those capable of timing it properly) another alternative.
Flowerpower...I'm really not sure what to do with. It's the second costliest spore, and entirely disappointing. The damage is low and the afflictions negligible. I almost want to rework it in entirety. I understand it is meant as a hindrance, but even in a group I'd be hesitant to use it. I think I'd like to see that aspect of it enhanced, and as such would propose that it break multiple (perhaps all four?) limbs as well as give a brief blackout. This shouldn't allow it to kill, but it would be a nice hindering ability.
Glinshari. Now here's the one that I think is presently too powerful. As a stand alone spore it does excellent damage. If you tack on afflictions, the damage quickly grows to a ludicrous amount. Therefore, I have the following suggestions for it: Adjust the damage scale for Glinshari. 50% at 0 afflictions, 60% at 1, 70% at 2, 80% at 3, 90% at 4, 100% (instant kill) at 5 afflictions. Disallow an increase of damage within a linked demesne. The stun currently scales from 0, 1.5, 3.0, 4.5, 6.0, 7.5 seconds. With damage adjusted as above, it'd be possible to kill using a 3+ affliction Glinshari, while 0-2 would be more difficult. Considering that it's 10p and kills all four of our flowers, I feel it should be a reasonable kill if we can stick these afflictions.
Branches I'm fine with things as they are proposed above.
Barks are ok, but I would change two of them:
Evergreen currently gives 20 poison DMP. As mentioned, poison DMP is already easy for us to gain high levels of due to snake totem. I would propose the following three solutions:
1: Increased chance to resist poisons.
2: Natural clotting (akin to Kingdom? Evergreen, always retaining colour. Blood doesn't flow easily from a tree anyway.)
3: Change of DMP, perhaps with an option of 3 choices (including poison) based on the Oak, Hornbeam, and Birch that Hartstone Druids can summon as saplings. Open to suggestions here.
Moonhart Bark. Frankly, this is another one of the skills which I just scratch my head at. Conceptually I can understand it. Mechanically it is nearly useless. Some have proposed a bit of tree-tending instead of things as they are now. I can't quite reconcile that with the concept of Wildewood, but I'll grant it as an option. My own proposed solutions are as follows:
1: Affix a rune to your bark, as Hartstone once attached to the Living Totems carved out of Moonhart Trees. However, instead of granting injury, the rune's power will occasionally protect you from that very affliction!
2: In addition to above, allow Wildewood to 'set down roots', disallowing any movement (and increasing resistance to forced movement) but allowing the affixed rune to flare with power and attack your focused enemy every 11 seconds. 3s EQ cost to set/remove roots.
3: ...
4: Profit!
5: Ignoring 3/4, tree-tending suggestions as above.
Ok, on to my last topic for the moment, the attacks.
Treelimb Spray <target>
50% Blunt/50% Magic. Squirrelly wrath! I kinda love this attack, the text makes me giggle each time I read it. I do think it's a bit weaker than my cudgel, but I think that's due as much to damage type as anything. Here's the bit I don't understand. How is this a magic attack? That said, I think it's slightly stronger as blunt/magic than it'd be as pure blunt. I can't logically think of any reason to use anything aside from blunt, either. All in all, I don't have too much issue with this. With Iron bark's buff to blunt, I'd rather keep this blunt than change it to cutting anyway. I'd be curious to see what people suggest for a damage type spread, however.
Treehug <target>
50% Blunt/50% Asphyxiation. 1 broken limb at random on PCs. 1 Faeblossom sap. Well, text is a tad bit blander, but still amusing in concept. Damage types are ok for hunting, particularly with blunt boost from Iron bark. But with the sap cost, I'd never use it for hunting. The expense is just too great in the long run. Asphyxiation is a weak damage type in many ways for PvP, due to the prevalence of Hold Breath. That's one mechanic I think most people would like to see go the way of Allhex. With that said, in the absence of other available boosts to Glinshari (Depends on tert!), having treehug to hit with just prior to the attack can be nice, since it'll guarantee the bump up in quality of the attack due to the broken limb. Once again, not sure what damage types would be reasonable to swap here, if necessary at all. No significant issue with this attack.
Well, that's what I have to say on the skillset at the moment. I may have more in mind when I wake up tomorrow. Don't hate!
These afflictions stack in a really powerful way. The fractured skull will take three actions to cure an affliction that, on average, blocks 1/3 actions (outr calamus, eat calamus, apply mending to head being preferable to arnica due to herb balance being taken already and the arnica cure requiring a fourth action). Broken leg and blindness will both be stuck until the next balance comes along. I used to use slickness+fracture skull some when I was BC tracking and it works awesome, but that was as an active attack with only a chance to proc one aff, even smaller for both. As a timed passive that is a guaranteed hit this would absolutely wreck people.
An ecologist could easily drop an herbbane, a well timed smudge, some fetish poisons, and beast spitting to really ramp up the sticking power what you are putting on people in an extremely short amount of time, and still manage to treehug in all of it too.
I'm not sure the passive afflictions need to change all that much. They aren't meant to be locking down an opponent or really hinder them all that much in any way. They are just buildup fodder for one of the two kill methods in the skillset. A single broken limb and faeriefire together when a glinshari finishes will nearly kill anyone, along with the stun you can just hug them to death. Or a runist could sling some sensitivity right as it goes off, which ought to do the trick. You can also beast spit some clumsiness just for that extra kicker. Glinshari damage is massive and is basically instant death if you have 3 of the right affs on them, and that's without the sensitivity. (multiple broken limbs don't seem to ramp it up all that much after the first, but the first is still a good addition)