On the one hand, sugar (alchemy), quicksilver (cooking/forging), spice (herbs), and salt (jewellery) only being found in failed attempts does rather sort of make them harder to find than other comms, but I think the idea is to keep comms relatively rarer in general. So while it'd be nice for them to be more common, especially for cooks, I don't know if it's a step in the direction we want to go... =/
Honestly, I'm more concerned with flax being used in two recipes than sugar being used in 10, for several reasons:
First, there aren't a lot of farmland to go around (10 rooms in the Grey Moors, the rest of them in villages (totaling aside from a minor scattering).
Second, you get between one and 10 sugar per failed vial (so a full failed cauldron will get you roughly 55 sugar), whereas flax will only grow by one per day (unless maintained).
Third, you only get one dose of tonic per 20 flax while you get 12 doses per 20 sugar.
All in all, I think there'll be a higher quantity of fruitpizzazz and kiwipunch made than the candies, both because of the higher doses per created item, and because of the higher goop cost of candies.
I think it'd be better if one (or even better, both!) of the two tonics were changed to use something other than flax. Preferrably forest-based, since there's no shortage of those herbs, but any other should work better than flax, at least.
As for sugar being used in candies, well... honestly, I kindof agree that 20 sugar per 12 doses for every candy is a high amount. On the other hand, though, it's candy. Sugar is rather a required component in it. Perhaps they could be split between 10 sugar and 10 other ingredients though? For instance, Fireball might require 10 sugar and 10 spices, and Creamchew might need 10 milk etc. It would lessen the pressure on the sugar while giving a use for some other perhaps underused comms (*cough*spices*cough*).
For presents, is the intention to nerf them significantly? For example, the ultimate present currently gives out items valued at around 300-500 credits. You proposed a 25% chance of getting 600-1000 goop, which would be 6-10 goop under current standards, or 30-50 credits in value. It looks like all of the other presents are also getting nerfed similarly.
If the intention is not to nerf them as such but just to get rid of the commodities, candy and gold, then maybe bundle the chance of these things into the chance that already exists for goop at each tier, but make it give less (converted) goop. So for exceptional presents there is currently a 28% chance of getting of these things and a <1% chance at 30-40 goop, which is 150-200 credits in value. Maybe make it can be 28% (plus whatever it is currently for goop) chance of getting 30-40 of the new goop, or 1.5-2 credits in value.
Fyi what I said before anyone else even mentioned presents so I don't know where anyone got the idea that I'm for the current numbers proposed by Estarra.
I think people are looking way too much into the commodity cost of these candies. Estarra is proposing 250 goop. That's 12.5 credits for a 12 use candy. Commodity prices will be a very small part of the overall cost of making them.
Again, I'm hoping for someone to take the list and give me thoughtful suggested alternate costs. I'm not really looking for reasons why this cost or that cost of goop or commodities isn't a good idea. Just give me some alternate costs and I'll consider those I think are reasonable! You don't really even need to justify or explain your suggestions. Otherwise, if no one gives me suggestions, I'll use my best judgment.
Fish or meat for waxlips. Animal fat based wax is second only to beeswax among edible waxes, I think? In either case whatever IS used for wax needs to not be honeycombs. For serious.
That's a great list, but do you really see people buying fireball candies for what amounts to 10k gold and half a credit worth of goop, so roughly 25k gold or so?
I understand we're trying to reduce gold bloat, but let's make sure the things we can buy are worth buying so people do buy them.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'd also like to note that for the cost of one set of wax lips on your list, Ssaliss, I can make ten goldentonics.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'd also like to note that for the cost of one set of wax lips on your list, Ssaliss, I can make ten goldentonics.
Well, I didn't touch Estarras proposed costs for gold or goop at all; I only touched the comm requirements. If you feel like the tonics need to be cheaper or the candies need to be more expensive, feel free to suggest your own changes.
If we charge to transfer, instead allow us to make these candies for someone in the room for no transfer cost.
Remove Death in Cooking. Add the ability to randomly get sugar from cooking in a lower skill level, higher skill = more sugar at once.
I realise this isn't going to happen, but ponder the idea of allowing cooks to design their own candies and instead infuse their candies with the above powers. Grandfather already existing candies until we run out
Bit-O-Hunny- eaters conglute, even while on prime. Even demigods.(1 death) - 12 Doses - current costs: 250 goop, 10000 gold, 1 honeycomb
Sour Soulless Candies - Eating gives the numbness defense for one minute. Only works against mobs (hunting). - 12 doses, 250 goop, 10000 gold, 10 steel.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Why is there no fruit in the fruitpizzazz? (A bit more seriously, Estarra is there any reason why the drinks use herb commodities rather than cooking commodities? Because if there's no mechanical reason, I will suggest that all four drinks use fruit comms, since the way drinking them is described makes em sound like essentially fizzy fruit drinks. And two of them have fruit in their names.)
Also. Serious question. If Goldentonic costs the same amount of goop as the other three tonics, do you feel they would ever be made? Because the way I see it, the tonic is the one obviously superior to the other drinks.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
ii candy more more more more more Number of matching objects: 869 (out of 1030 total)
These things irritate me yet have just enough value that I don't want to destroy them. I give them away, but I don't feel comfortable dumping large piles on newbies (I'm not convinced spoonfeeding new players has net positive outcomes) and in the end I wind up gaining them faster than I get rid of them.
Eh.
Getting back to the topic, I haven't been party to any spring candy sales between players, so I don't have a strong sense of what people are valuing them at. But if we're going to create this other economic system-with-the-system, I'd recommend fluid recipe costs. Set a ratio of goop:gold:comms for each recipe and apply a single Demand factor against them. The more a recipe is used, the higher that factor. Let the player see the costs before confirming the action. Let the sum of all these Demand factors be a fixed value, so that as certain recipes go up in recipe costs, the others decrease. Tracking and Demand factor changes would have to be modestly long term, to avoid gaming the mechanics. The logic is pretty basic, but it would help to ensure that an equilibrium is attained, otherwise I suspect we'll see a whole lot of two or three items made and the rest become novelties.
Then the only dial that may need tweaked is the availability of goop, which is more of an ongoing assessment/evaluation.
Why is there no fruit in the fruitpizzazz? (A bit more seriously, Estarra is there any reason why the drinks use herb commodities rather than cooking commodities? Because if there's no mechanical reason, I will suggest that all four drinks use fruit comms, since the way drinking them is described makes em sound like essentially fizzy fruit drinks. And two of them have fruit in their names.)
Also. Serious question. If Goldentonic costs the same amount of goop as the other three tonics, do you feel they would ever be made? Because the way I see it, the tonic is the one obviously superior to the other drinks.
I don't know if grocers' commodities can go in an alembic.
You put a box of fruit in a glass alembic in preparation for amalgamation.
Guess they can
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
I'm probably not going to have alchemists need alembics or cooks need ovens. Aethergoop will just be magical and easier to craft!
We're not going to add more candy--there's already a lot! We may think about more goop created consumables for other trade skills but that's down the road (though feel free to brainstorm).
@Shaddus why do you suggest one dose items cost 75 goop and 12 doses cost 125 goop? (I know you have exceptions but just trying to figure out the overall logic.)
@Shaddus why do you suggest one dose items cost 75 goop and 12 doses cost 125 goop? (I know you have exceptions but just trying to figure out the overall logic.)
(Shaddus) Darn forums.
@estarra: No real reason. I don't feel that we should base prices on "amount of doses", because the powers aren't really equal or comparable except for a few cases.
For instance, wax lips are 25%, 12 times. Tonics are 100% one time, but riftable, plus (unless you're planning on changing this), sellable in shops as opposed to candies. They're more convienent overall, easier to hand out, and thus, they're more pricey than a single dose of a 12 dose item at 125. I feel that they're more likely to be used, and having them priced proportionately higher than 12 dose, generally weaker (but not always) candies makes sense if we are primarily doing this to lower gold and goop/whatever in the economy.
Or, if none of that really made sense, because I took Ssaliss' list and priced what I felt I'd pay for one, regardless of what other things on the list were priced.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Because it's not actually fruit, it's Fruit-Flavoured (TM)
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
First, there aren't a lot of farmland to go around (10 rooms in the Grey Moors, the rest of them in villages (totaling aside from a minor scattering).
Second, you get between one and 10 sugar per failed vial (so a full failed cauldron will get you roughly 55 sugar), whereas flax will only grow by one per day (unless maintained).
Third, you only get one dose of tonic per 20 flax while you get 12 doses per 20 sugar.
All in all, I think there'll be a higher quantity of fruitpizzazz and kiwipunch made than the candies, both because of the higher doses per created item, and because of the higher goop cost of candies.
I think it'd be better if one (or even better, both!) of the two tonics were changed to use something other than flax. Preferrably forest-based, since there's no shortage of those herbs, but any other should work better than flax, at least.
As for sugar being used in candies, well... honestly, I kindof agree that 20 sugar per 12 doses for every candy is a high amount. On the other hand, though, it's candy. Sugar is rather a required component in it. Perhaps they could be split between 10 sugar and 10 other ingredients though? For instance, Fireball might require 10 sugar and 10 spices, and Creamchew might need 10 milk etc. It would lessen the pressure on the sugar while giving a use for some other perhaps underused comms (*cough*spices*cough*).
Fyi what I said before anyone else even mentioned presents so I don't know where anyone got the idea that I'm for the current numbers proposed by Estarra.
I think people are looking way too much into the commodity cost of these candies. Estarra is proposing 250 goop. That's 12.5 credits for a 12 use candy. Commodity prices will be a very small part of the overall cost of making them.
I understand we're trying to reduce gold bloat, but let's make sure the things we can buy are worth buying so people do buy them.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Also. Serious question. If Goldentonic costs the same amount of goop as the other three tonics, do you feel they would ever be made? Because the way I see it, the tonic is the one obviously superior to the other drinks.
more
more
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more
Number of matching objects: 869 (out of 1030 total)
These things irritate me yet have just enough value that I don't want to destroy them. I give them away, but I don't feel comfortable dumping large piles on newbies (I'm not convinced spoonfeeding new players has net positive outcomes) and in the end I wind up gaining them faster than I get rid of them.
Eh.
Getting back to the topic, I haven't been party to any spring candy sales between players, so I don't have a strong sense of what people are valuing them at. But if we're going to create this other economic system-with-the-system, I'd recommend fluid recipe costs. Set a ratio of goop:gold:comms for each recipe and apply a single Demand factor against them. The more a recipe is used, the higher that factor. Let the player see the costs before confirming the action. Let the sum of all these Demand factors be a fixed value, so that as certain recipes go up in recipe costs, the others decrease. Tracking and Demand factor changes would have to be modestly long term, to avoid gaming the mechanics. The logic is pretty basic, but it would help to ensure that an equilibrium is attained, otherwise I suspect we'll see a whole lot of two or three items made and the rest become novelties.
Then the only dial that may need tweaked is the availability of goop, which is more of an ongoing assessment/evaluation.
I don't know if grocers' commodities can go in an alembic.
You put a box of fruit in a glass alembic in preparation for amalgamation.
Guess they can
We're not going to add more candy--there's already a lot! We may think about more goop created consumables for other trade skills but that's down the road (though feel free to brainstorm).