I don't really like the idea of limiting how much gold a player can produce per day. Instead I'd look at adjusting the gold buildup on mobs, and especially the gold produced by things such as maps.
Just as an example, cloud manta. I know I've gotten up to like 2,400 gold per drop on those when I've been really lucky. If you come back right after and farm them again, it is <100 gold per. It might be more ideal to have the base something like 300ish and have the ceiling never go above 1800 or so. Higher floor, lower ceiling is better for newbs imo.
I've gotta say I'm pretty unhappy about this, because it feels like a big nerf to "players like me." I have a bunch of thoughts, some of which may be wrong:
1. My desert Ur'traps are now only worth the coins they occasionally spit out.
2. I suspect that artifacts that make bashing faster are now way over priced. My next purchase was going to be a crit rune. Why would I get it now?
3. This isn't a nerf on high level players vis-a-vis low level players, it's a nerf on high level players who heavily farm gold vis-a-vis the rest of the game.
4. Similarly, it's primarily a nerf on those who did the majority of their bashing on certain days (i.e. weekends). I feel like I'll come to view bashing as another "daily" like scholars and bards.
5. This should raise the relative status of influencing over bashing. The esteem to credit ratio should only go through second order changes, while the gold to credit ratio could change dramatically.
Honestly, what are the gold sinks that now exist in the game? I actually don't know. Do people even buy large amounts of commodities from the comm shops? I just PORTAL ENTER ARI. People have on multiple occasions and in many different threads suggested gold sinks, but they've never been implemented. Why not?
The statement that "it was really only a handful of players who were outliers that were inflating daily gold generation" is interesting. I wonder who those people are. I suspect I'm one of them. I also suspect that many of the top-tier players are not - why would someone who is almost fully artied out need a bunch of gold in their pocket? Because of this, it seems like you're nerfing those who are trying to establish themselves, rather than those who are already established.
It would also be nice if we could offer larger amounts of gold to divine. You might find people willing to drop a lot of gold into that.
Buy esteem!
This is not a gold sink, bro. A gold sink removes gold from the economy (so basically it's any system requiring you to pay a denizen/shop for something). Buying esteem moves gold within the economy.
Mrak: There are two camps of established gold-folk. On the one hand, you have players like me who are hoarders and spend almost nothing, so even a very small bit of gold accumulation over time builds up to large amounts. On the other hand, there are also those who just like to spam-do things repeatedly that also generate gold in addition to whatever else they are achieving (such as genie maps and coins spun at the Wheel). Large amounts generated constantly, meaning that they may not even see any need to hoard; it will come back soon, so just splurge it. Easy come, easy go.
I will say that I have a ton of artifacts in my pocket and over 30 million gold at this point. Why do I need it? I don't, really. I just also like to hoard things and hold onto them forever and ever. But then again I am not-- and never have been-- one of those people that this is aimed at. I am much more of a long-haul player.
Reducing excessive daily generation is not a bad thing (is this specific iteration of it a good way to go? That can be debated, but the general gist is a good thing to see imo). Large stockpiles of gold like mine are essentially removed from the game because it is never spent. The issue is not with that so much as that certain players have so much gold coming in that they just spend it as if it was valueless (which ends up making it essentially valueless).
Ps: Look at the people spamming 10+ treasure maps every day to get a good idea of who "those people are". They are not exactly paupers, those things are artifacts that they invested heavily in.
It might be useful to consider why we want to stop inflation. I think most of us (myself included) think that doing so would be a good thing, but why is that?
I don't think that newbies not being able to purchase their necessities is it. Maybe I'm wrong. But like Falmiis, in the few cases where there was a newbie who needed something but didn't have the gold, I just gave it to them. I think something like 30 to 50k is really not that much to someone like me, but gets them basically all that they need. I have a couple of alts who have way more gold than they need for their various requirements (granted, I know the places low levels can bash to get a pretty good amount of gold, so they're not really comparable to true newbies).
In reality, I think we want inflation to slow down so that people can save up the gold to get some cool artifacts without having to shell out real life money. Perhaps I'm just projecting though - do others have differing opinions? And if that is our goal, is this the right way to do it?
1. Remove gold from treasure maps/presents/wheel spins.
2. Wheel spins for gold.
3. ?
4. Profit
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I disagree with 'save the newbies'. That's selling them short, and denying them the opportunity to enjoy the growth of their characters. They aren't any worse at playing the game than the first wave players, and already have advantages from there being established characters around. Personally, I miss the days when earning your first full plate was a Major Accomplishment, and the day my Celestian snuck into Magnagoran Angkrag to steal ingots to forge into his masterplate is a memory I'll take with me.
These days, it's more of a challenge finding tradesmen willing to put out the effort to stock their shops than it is to acquire the gold to buy things. That's a big part of why I opened an aethershop and stock it the way I do - I'm tired of there not being a supply of Foo. Our glut of materials renders items relatively valueless, and therefore tradeskills valueless save for skill perks.
It might be useful to consider why we want to stop inflation. I think most of us (myself included) think that doing so would be a good thing, but why is that?
I don't think that newbies not being able to purchase their necessities is it. Maybe I'm wrong. But like Falmiis, in the few cases where there was a newbie who needed something but didn't have the gold, I just gave it to them. I think something like 30 to 50k is really not that much to someone like me, but gets them basically all that they need. I have a couple of alts who have way more gold than they need for their various requirements (granted, I know the places low levels can bash to get a pretty good amount of gold, so they're not really comparable to true newbies).
In reality, I think we want inflation to slow down so that people can save up the gold to get some cool artifacts without having to shell out real life money. Perhaps I'm just projecting though - do others have differing opinions? And if that is our goal, is this the right way to do it?
I'd like to see the economy improved for that reason, and also just to make it more interesting in general. I barely interact with the economy. I buy curatives and that's about it. Also to expand mercantile RP. That's a big part of Hallifax rp that is missing. Not that I expect we'll ever get to EVE Online levels, but it'd be nice to have something more in-depth.
EDIT: Though also, once again suggesting that we should have an easy way to purchase copies of published books. Maybe we could request them from the library, a percentage goes to the author, another percentage goes to org, and then the remainder goes off into the ether?
It wouldn't grab much, but I can't be the only one who would kind enjoy building their own library in their manse. (okay, maybe I am whatever :P)
There's a skill in bookbinding for this. Hit up your local bookbinder, get your own private library.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
After browsing Aetolia something that struck me is how easy it is for new players to get into the game. I am an established IRE player, obviously, so I'm not totally clueless, but the price of goods there are so accessible that a new player can get equipped with equipment and curatives just by ratting (or seagulling) for a bit. I'm talking 2000 sparkleberry equivalent, the armor you need to survive, and the basic curatives to start your grinding, resistance rings, the whole nine yards. A new player has total access to the necessities without feeling totally put out. I haven't been a new player in a long time, but my distinct impression is that it's fundamentally more expensive and restrictive here.
So while commodities as a gold sink might remove gold from the market, it will absolutely impact the QoL for new players.
Increasing the costs of commodities and/or increasing comm costs within designs won't accomplish anything as long as people are getting comms for free on a regular basis.
If you want to improve the comm market - remove dingbat mines and free comms from things like genies/stocking/etc.
I also agree with @Vivet - raise the floor and drop the ceiling on how much gold mobs accumulate.
As an aside - limiting gold gains per day by providing diminishing returns doesn't actually make things like gold cookies/artifacts etc overpriced/not worth it etc. You're still benefiting from those items in the same exact way (%higher gold gains, faster bashing, etc).
"'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in." -Synkarin's Lament.
1
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
"If you want to improve the comm market - remove dingbat mines and free comms from things like genies/stocking/etc."
Won't happen, unfortunately.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I would love to see item generation artifacts disappear (or more likely, be altered). I've ranted about them before. Though it starts to get blurry. Magic ink is expensive, and a quill artifact effectively 'creates' free magic ink. The same could be said for most trade artifacts.
Lower the ceiling on gold drops, sure, but raising the floor is a bad idea. It's easier to get supplied in Aetolia because the tradeskills there are more competitive. Competition yields lower prices on items. But when there are FAR more effective ways to gain gold, people are much less likely to spend time on trades. That's where we are right now. If we triple the floor on gold drops, we reinforce the notion that trades are a hobby - because hunting will always be more profitable for the time spent. And because trades are a gold-loss hobby, only the really obstinate or OCD feels a need to ensure their shops are broadly and densely supplied. It's a big part of why I opened an aethershop and stock it the way I do - I got tired of there not being a supply of Foo.
This change irritates me, mostly because I tend to binge on bashing. I don't know if that's common or not, but a daily limit cuts a lot of the benefit out of bashing on my normal schedule. Probably also unpleasant for people who can only get the time to bash on weekends. I don't know if that's a big group or not either. Could fix that for both groups by making it a weekly limit instead.
Either way, it discourages doing things after a certain point. Consider adding a feature where you can voluntarily reduce your gold generation at any point to increase other resources. Just set up some toggles to reduce your gold drops by X% to increase XP gains or honor gains by Y%, or to generate some essence for your patron with every kill/influence. No need to make the percentages equal. I'm guessing that'll feel a lot better than just losing out on a lot of the benefit of bashing, and it leaves people with more of a reason to bash after their daily 50k. I dunno if people would reduce their income enough voluntarily to make the cap redundant or not.
Consider selling golden tonics and the other buff drinks for gold again. Not necessarily permanently, but refill the world supply a little.
I have vague memories of a raffle with the original drinks? It was neat. I like raffles. Maybe follow the Kingdom of Loathing model and do regular raffles with prizes from a pool of rare items. Make them temporary or consumable to keep people from accumulating enough to kill raffle interest. Could raffle off things that take admin work like a custom ikon every so often, too.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
As an aside - limiting gold gains per day by providing diminishing returns doesn't actually make things like gold cookies/artifacts etc overpriced/not worth it etc. You're still benefiting from those items in the same exact way (%higher gold gains, faster bashing, etc).
I easily hit 50k on a weekend day that I'm playing without cookies. If I were actually making an effort to get gold on weekdays, I would also hit the cap without cookies. If the numbers are of the order of magnitude that Falmiis' (Falmiis's?) post suggests, (~10-20% of the original levels) then it's basically not worth it for me to farm after I hit the cap. Since I was going to hit the cap without the cookies, cookies don't really help me.
I guess one could argue that instead of having to farm for an hour on a weekend day, the cookies make it so I only have to farm half an hour, and that half an hour is now the worth of cookies. That's true. I would not have spent the ~450 dingbats I've spent on the ur'traps to get it. I'm not sure I would spend 50 dingbats for it.
I'm happy to see anything tested to try and get the economy under control, since it's currently a dumpster fire. This seems like it'll cause some grief but if it works, it works. Agreed that it's probably necessary to curtail or even eliminate item/gold generation artifacts; I know they're beloved by those who have them, and it'd be tough to get rid of them, but they're causing an uncontrollable faucet that there really isn't a sink to counteract. And the creation of new gold sinks has the potential to really harm new players and those who don't gold bash habitually above all else.
Jadice, the Frost Queen says to you, "Constant vigilance."
To build on what others are saying, what we're talking about as an ideal is that a new player who has no idea where things are or how to make Da Big Bux can still afford the resources needed to get their bearings, without having to rely on established players' charity. We aren't just in a gold glut, we're in an everything glut, so you either can't compete with shops that already have everything priced based on free comms or you operate at a severe loss.
There's no real need to hunt around for silk, just buy it from the aethershop. Ministries of Trade are a joke for the same reason. No one needs to really do the spider/dwarf/farmer/cow/sheep resource competition quests, because what's the point when your home org has over 50,000 of everything, and over 100,000 of things like eggs, meat, cloth, etc.?
I also need to ask what's included in that 50k cap. Gold drops and drop likes, sure, but if I open a present at the wrong time of day, do I risk getting an EXCEPTIONAL 50 gold sovereigns? Can my Iron Coin leave me with 3 gold? Rubbing curios into pennies each? The numbers Falmiis sprovided seem to suggest that getting past 75k/day will be challenging or impossible, which might conceivably improve the relative value of gold itself, but will do so only very, very slowly without something that also cripples other sources of undercutting or bypassing the economy.
EDIT: On the subject of other comms, would it be possible/acceptable for Manse rooms to be able to have their base type changed, or even allow them to be created by using a lot of commodities to do it? ie: I want an Outdoor Urban room, so I put 500 marble, 100 iron, 50 steel, and 10 gems; I want a forest room, so I put in 500 wood, 150 galingale, and 10 sprigs of mistletoe/holly (do druids still make/use those?).
Yes. I'm serious. Researchers and 'mancers already have some measure of this, and I can say that personally I don't find it to be a huge strain on my personal ability to use those skills. It needn't be very big, but it should be present. Something that provides a low but constant drain on resources. As is, there's pretty much no real strain on the commodity market, with certain commodities existing in tens to even hundreds of thousands. A strain needs to be put back on the commodity market to ensure that commodities have value once more. This'll help with goldflation, and may even at a certain point reintroduce commercial government as a decent choice of government.
I'd ideally see this introduced along with other solutions of course, skill use should not put too much of a strain on the commodity market by itself. But with no scarcity of resources, resources have no value.
And before happens.
There are plenty of ways to introduce a commodity strain that targets established players over novices. And the fact that you have to use gems for researcher abilities has not made the Institute a guild barren of novices. The argument is invalid.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
A thing I noticed in aetolia is every org also has a novice chest, that only novices can take things from. It is filled with armour, weapons, vials, pipes. All the basics a novice needs. Now a novice could abuse it and empty the chest, but it seems the honour system works well enough there.
Maybe we could instate something like that in our Collegiums that trades people can put items in that novices will need to get underway and then gold has less impact on them right at the start.
I think we've tried something similar in the past, but it wasn't terribly efficient or effective? I think Gaudi had a chest going at the Flame for a long time, don't know if it's still there because they don't let me play around their campfire anymore.
I can't see adding commodity requirements for basic skills as anything but really obnoxious. It's already obnoxious for Chemantics, and the current set up either forces you to 1) grind for essence but without generating power 2) Spend a bunch of gold on a not so cheap commodity or 3) buy an artifact. If the issue inflation, the solution is not make the basic existence of everyone more expensive and meaninglessly tedious.
The argument is not invalid. Gold cost isn't the only issue regarding newbie access. Resource requirements and complexity is also an issue. Not just for newbies, but for everyone.
Another thing, I don't know to what extent this gold generation was researched, but I have a hard time believing that bashing/influencing were the culprits for people having too much gold.
Maps, curio rubbing, wheel spins, presents, selling credits bought with RL money generate far more gold than bashing/influencing. Hell, I earned over 200k gambling last night in less time than I would bashing it up. (to be fair I also lost it this morning)
Another thing, I don't know to what extent this gold generation was researched, but I have a hard time believing that bashing/influencing were the culprits for people having too much gold.
Maps, curio rubbing, wheel spins, presents, selling credits bought with RL money generate far more gold than bashing/influencing. Hell, I earned over 200k gambling last night in less time than I would bashing it up. (to be fair I also lost it this morning)
Seconded on wanting these numbers, or at least wanting to know if these numbers exist and were looked at. My impression is actually the opposite, but then again I don't have any maps and my present count is rather low, so I'm rather ignorant on the subject.
0
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Maps, curio rubbing, wheel spins, presents, selling credits bought with RL money generate far more gold than bashing/influencing.
I'm inclined to agree here. It's surprising to me we are looking to use the commodity market to fix goldflation when these items tend to be the true culprit. (But, if you're actually concerned about the low cost of designs and player made items, the real issue is the glut of commodities cheaply generated by manse items like the mines and whatnot.) I can't speak for bashing or influencing as I have a deep aversion to both.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Just thinking again about offering gold (an idea I originally Liked): doing this would put a external cap on the price of esteem, which needs to be considered.
Comments
1. My desert Ur'traps are now only worth the coins they occasionally spit out.
2. I suspect that artifacts that make bashing faster are now way over priced. My next purchase was going to be a crit rune. Why would I get it now?
3. This isn't a nerf on high level players vis-a-vis low level players, it's a nerf on high level players who heavily farm gold vis-a-vis the rest of the game.
4. Similarly, it's primarily a nerf on those who did the majority of their bashing on certain days (i.e. weekends). I feel like I'll come to view bashing as another "daily" like scholars and bards.
5. This should raise the relative status of influencing over bashing. The esteem to credit ratio should only go through second order changes, while the gold to credit ratio could change dramatically.
Honestly, what are the gold sinks that now exist in the game? I actually don't know. Do people even buy large amounts of commodities from the comm shops? I just PORTAL ENTER ARI. People have on multiple occasions and in many different threads suggested gold sinks, but they've never been implemented. Why not?
The statement that "it was really only a handful of players who were outliers that were inflating daily gold generation" is interesting. I wonder who those people are. I suspect I'm one of them. I also suspect that many of the top-tier players are not - why would someone who is almost fully artied out need a bunch of gold in their pocket? Because of this, it seems like you're nerfing those who are trying to establish themselves, rather than those who are already established.
I will say that I have a ton of artifacts in my pocket and over 30 million gold at this point. Why do I need it? I don't, really. I just also like to hoard things and hold onto them forever and ever. But then again I am not-- and never have been-- one of those people that this is aimed at. I am much more of a long-haul player.
Reducing excessive daily generation is not a bad thing (is this specific iteration of it a good way to go? That can be debated, but the general gist is a good thing to see imo). Large stockpiles of gold like mine are essentially removed from the game because it is never spent. The issue is not with that so much as that certain players have so much gold coming in that they just spend it as if it was valueless (which ends up making it essentially valueless).
Ps: Look at the people spamming 10+ treasure maps every day to get a good idea of who "those people are". They are not exactly paupers, those things are artifacts that they invested heavily in.
I don't think that newbies not being able to purchase their necessities is it. Maybe I'm wrong. But like Falmiis, in the few cases where there was a newbie who needed something but didn't have the gold, I just gave it to them. I think something like 30 to 50k is really not that much to someone like me, but gets them basically all that they need. I have a couple of alts who have way more gold than they need for their various requirements (granted, I know the places low levels can bash to get a pretty good amount of gold, so they're not really comparable to true newbies).
In reality, I think we want inflation to slow down so that people can save up the gold to get some cool artifacts without having to shell out real life money. Perhaps I'm just projecting though - do others have differing opinions? And if that is our goal, is this the right way to do it?
2. Wheel spins for gold.
3. ?
4. Profit
These days, it's more of a challenge finding tradesmen willing to put out the effort to stock their shops than it is to acquire the gold to buy things. That's a big part of why I opened an aethershop and stock it the way I do - I'm tired of there not being a supply of Foo. Our glut of materials renders items relatively valueless, and therefore tradeskills valueless save for skill perks.
There's a skill in bookbinding for this. Hit up your local bookbinder, get your own private library.
So while commodities as a gold sink might remove gold from the market, it will absolutely impact the QoL for new players.
If you want to improve the comm market - remove dingbat mines and free comms from things like genies/stocking/etc.
I also agree with @Vivet - raise the floor and drop the ceiling on how much gold mobs accumulate.
As an aside - limiting gold gains per day by providing diminishing returns doesn't actually make things like gold cookies/artifacts etc overpriced/not worth it etc. You're still benefiting from those items in the same exact way (%higher gold gains, faster bashing, etc).
Won't happen, unfortunately.
But if you're serious about the economy - you need to eliminate these things.
Lower the ceiling on gold drops, sure, but raising the floor is a bad idea. It's easier to get supplied in Aetolia because the tradeskills there are more competitive. Competition yields lower prices on items. But when there are FAR more effective ways to gain gold, people are much less likely to spend time on trades. That's where we are right now. If we triple the floor on gold drops, we reinforce the notion that trades are a hobby - because hunting will always be more profitable for the time spent. And because trades are a gold-loss hobby, only the really obstinate or OCD feels a need to ensure their shops are broadly and densely supplied. It's a big part of why I opened an aethershop and stock it the way I do - I got tired of there not being a supply of Foo.
Either way, it discourages doing things after a certain point. Consider adding a feature where you can voluntarily reduce your gold generation at any point to increase other resources. Just set up some toggles to reduce your gold drops by X% to increase XP gains or honor gains by Y%, or to generate some essence for your patron with every kill/influence. No need to make the percentages equal. I'm guessing that'll feel a lot better than just losing out on a lot of the benefit of bashing, and it leaves people with more of a reason to bash after their daily 50k. I dunno if people would reduce their income enough voluntarily to make the cap redundant or not.
Consider selling golden tonics and the other buff drinks for gold again. Not necessarily permanently, but refill the world supply a little.
I have vague memories of a raffle with the original drinks? It was neat. I like raffles. Maybe follow the Kingdom of Loathing model and do regular raffles with prizes from a pool of rare items. Make them temporary or consumable to keep people from accumulating enough to kill raffle interest. Could raffle off things that take admin work like a custom ikon every so often, too.
I guess one could argue that instead of having to farm for an hour on a weekend day, the cookies make it so I only have to farm half an hour, and that half an hour is now the worth of cookies. That's true. I would not have spent the ~450 dingbats I've spent on the ur'traps to get it. I'm not sure I would spend 50 dingbats for it.
There's no real need to hunt around for silk, just buy it from the aethershop. Ministries of Trade are a joke for the same reason. No one needs to really do the spider/dwarf/farmer/cow/sheep resource competition quests, because what's the point when your home org has over 50,000 of everything, and over 100,000 of things like eggs, meat, cloth, etc.?
I also need to ask what's included in that 50k cap. Gold drops and drop likes, sure, but if I open a present at the wrong time of day, do I risk getting an EXCEPTIONAL 50 gold sovereigns? Can my Iron Coin leave me with 3 gold? Rubbing curios into pennies each? The numbers Falmiis sprovided seem to suggest that getting past 75k/day will be challenging or impossible, which might conceivably improve the relative value of gold itself, but will do so only very, very slowly without something that also cripples other sources of undercutting or bypassing the economy.
EDIT: On the subject of other comms, would it be possible/acceptable for Manse rooms to be able to have their base type changed, or even allow them to be created by using a lot of commodities to do it? ie: I want an Outdoor Urban room, so I put 500 marble, 100 iron, 50 steel, and 10 gems; I want a forest room, so I put in 500 wood, 150 galingale, and 10 sprigs of mistletoe/holly (do druids still make/use those?).
That way they are still good, still worth doing, but won't be adding in undue gold.
Yes. I'm serious. Researchers and 'mancers already have some measure of this, and I can say that personally I don't find it to be a huge strain on my personal ability to use those skills. It needn't be very big, but it should be present. Something that provides a low but constant drain on resources. As is, there's pretty much no real strain on the commodity market, with certain commodities existing in tens to even hundreds of thousands. A strain needs to be put back on the commodity market to ensure that commodities have value once more. This'll help with goldflation, and may even at a certain point reintroduce commercial government as a decent choice of government.
I'd ideally see this introduced along with other solutions of course, skill use should not put too much of a strain on the commodity market by itself. But with no scarcity of resources, resources have no value.
And before
happens.
There are plenty of ways to introduce a commodity strain that targets established players over novices. And the fact that you have to use gems for researcher abilities has not made the Institute a guild barren of novices. The argument is invalid.
Maybe we could instate something like that in our Collegiums that trades people can put items in that novices will need to get underway and then gold has less impact on them right at the start.
The argument is not invalid. Gold cost isn't the only issue regarding newbie access. Resource requirements and complexity is also an issue. Not just for newbies, but for everyone.
Maps, curio rubbing, wheel spins, presents, selling credits bought with RL money generate far more gold than bashing/influencing.
Hell, I earned over 200k gambling last night in less time than I would bashing it up. (to be fair I also lost it this morning)
Also open to general ideas for gold sinks!
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."