Mechanics that have been nerfed as a direct result of group concerns:
Inquisition -- incurable/unstoppable, leads directly to a kill condition
Sacrifice -- depending on how many people, incurable/unstoppable, leads directly to a kill condition
Choke -- incurable, facilitates kill
Nightshadeblues -- multiplyer of stacking mana drains, facilitates kill condition (but was insane with toad/swoop), + passive
Double haegl -- cumulative stacking mana drain, leads directly to kill condition
Wolf totem -- no idea what this nerf was
Warrior stacking -- cumulative, leads directly to kill condition
Burns/wounds -- cumulative, leads directly to kill condition (Would also add TP ego drain) -- cumulative, leads directly to kill condition
The nerfs you mentioned are all quite different than nerfing aeon.
What I would like to point out is that for almost all of the aforementioned nerfs, there was no counterplay. Aeon allows opportunity to counter, and relies on more coordination to be effective. If people are perfectly coordinated, and aren't disrupted, yes they can lock you out in groups. However that's more based on stacking asthma and things, which won't even be addressed in your proposed nerf.
People that don't really fight are underestimating what the difference between 3s to escape, and 1s (or less) to escape in group combat is. This nerf will make a big difference in group fights where the most important thing is stopping your primary target from escaping, while killing them. That's all group combat is! Lockdown target, kill as fast as possible.
Hallifax has aeon to do this. If every time you cure aeon you get 3s free to eat earwort (cure p5) and start a tumble, we're never going to lock anyone down.
Gaudi has the best balance eating, transfixing, escape failing (sludgeworm), command failing lockdown class (in my opinion) in the game. Plus they get aeon and empress! (note: tumbling out if you have hekoskeri injected totally makes you empress bait, and you WILL get empressed back to your doom)
If you nerf aeon, you'll see Hallifax struggling to keep any primary target in the room, whereas Gaudi will still be able to do so. That is why this report is partisan.
Edit: I'm not sure what you want me to do Shoel? Explain how aeon works? Why/how it can be cured? That's all in the thread here I think. Hopefully this post will help you see how changing aeon changes the meta of our relative orgs. (A meta which I don't think overly favors Hallifax, despite our classes being really strong.)
Mechanics that have been nerfed as a direct result of group concerns:
Inquisition -- incurable/unstoppable, leads directly to a kill condition
Sacrifice -- depending on how many people, incurable/unstoppable, leads directly to a kill condition
Choke -- incurable, facilitates kill
Nightshadeblues -- multiplyer of stacking mana drains, facilitates kill condition (but was insane with toad/swoop), + passive
Double haegl -- cumulative stacking mana drain, leads directly to kill condition
Wolf totem -- no idea what this nerf was
Warrior stacking -- cumulative, leads directly to kill condition
Burns/wounds -- cumulative, leads directly to kill condition (Would also add TP ego drain) -- cumulative, leads directly to kill condition
People that don't really fight are underestimating what the difference between 3s to escape, and 1s (or less) to escape in group combat is. This nerf will make a big difference in group fights where the most important thing is stopping your primary target from escaping, while killing them. That's all group combat is! Lockdown target, kill as fast as possible.
Hallifax has aeon to do this. If every time you cure aeon you get 3s free to eat earwort (cure p5) and start a tumble, we're never going to lock anyone down.
ABJURE WEB <target>
CRYSTALSPIN CONVOKE <target>
CRYSTALSPIN SHOCKSTONE <target>
CAST ICEWALL <direction>
AEROCAST SQUALLS [<direction>] [DEMESNE]
AEROCAST AIRNET [DEMESNE]
LAY LEGSNARE <direction>
LAY PIT <direction>
WEAVE FASCINATION <target>
WEAVE PHANTOMWALL <direction>
UPSETSTOMACH: Effects: Dust balance loss (stack with mantakaya)
Knockdown: Effects: Prone affliction, balance loss
LegTendon: Effects: Mutilatedrightleg or mutilatedleftleg affliction (Upon being afflicted by both, target is proned.)
ENGAGE <player>
IPALE: Effects: Impaled afflicition
CrushLeg: Effects: Mutilatedrightleg or mutilatedleftleg affliction (Upon being afflicted by both, target is proned.)
STEED PINCHARGE <target> <direction>
WIND: Effects: Balance loss
Smashchest: Effect: Stun affliction
PLAY PERFECTFIFTH <target>
MidnightMinuet: balance loss
FLING HANGEDMAN AT <target>
These are also things that Hallifax has that help prevent people from escaping. Saying "Hallifax has aeon to [hold someone down]" is disingenuous.
If you have to rely entirely on common class skills to achieve something, it generally means it's safe to say that your class specialisation isn't fitted to achieve that thing.
I feel like you just stated 'Researchers can keep people in the room because they have webbing in cosmic', which is a fine enough statement but saying a researcher is just as capable as keeping you in place as any other guardian is drawing a comparison between that and the ability for celestines/nihilists to give passive entangle, wiccans to give passive offbal + passive leave denial, or Illuminati sludgeworm on top of cosmic webbing/nature entangle.
A far better argument would have been to mention temporalbonds, but even that has the illuminati counterpart as well as sludgeworm.
Edit: lol convoke
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
We don't really have a lot of Illuminati running around lately, so those are the big things Gaudi uses to keep people in the room. Works pretty well. You don't require aeon to keep people in the room, plain and simple, no more than Gaudiguch needs an Illuminati to effectively do so.
Incidentally, Hallifax demesne has squalls which causes all forms of room movement to fail including magical such as the medallion. Pyromancers don't have anything similar.
If you have to rely entirely on common class skills to achieve something, it generally means it's safe to say that your class specialisation isn't fitted to achieve that thing.
I feel like you just stated 'Researchers can keep people in the room because they have webbing in cosmic', which is a fine enough statement but saying a researcher is just as capable as keeping you in place as any other guardian is drawing a comparison between that and the ability for celestines/nihilists to give passive entangle, wiccans to give passive offbal + passive leave denial, or Illuminati sludgeworm on top of cosmic webbing/nature entangle.
A far better argument would have been to mention temporalbonds, but even that has the illuminati counterpart as well as sludgeworm.
Edit: lol convoke
The argument was that aeon is Hallifax's way of keeping someone in the room. That was what he said. I simply supplied other skills that Hallifax has that can achieve the same means. It does not matter if they are common skills, shared skills between guilds, or guild specific skills. If it can be used to achieve the same ends, then saying "Aeon is what Hallifax has to keep someone pinned down" shows one of two things:
1. A lack of willingness to use other skills his faction has access to, or
2. That Hallifax has access to other tools which can be used to lock someone down.
It should also be mentioned that some of those skills are far better at locking someone down than Aeon, as you can still tumble when aeon'd.
I think a better statement would have been that Researchers dsn't specialise in keeping people in the room and aeon supplements that. I honestly don't mind if we move away from aeon entirely but when my skillset revolves around the rapid application of aeon -- and I start losing passives for no reason then I'm uncertain as to what the point of having a skill set revolving around rapidly applying aeon is for. It you wanna make researchers spiritual illuminati, sure. I really hope timewarp function gets changed too 'cause quicksilver window will be pretty meh with a 3s immunity, given that it doesn't even reach a 3s extention until major.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
I think a better statement would have been that Researchers dsn't specialise in keeping people in the room and aeon supplements that. I honestly don't mind if we move away from aeon entirely but when my skillset revolves around the rapid application of aeon -- and I start losing passives for no reason then I'm uncertain as to what the point of having a skill set revolving around rapidly applying aeon is for. It you wanna make researchers spiritual illuminati, sure. I really hope timewarp function gets changed too 'cause quicksilver window will be pretty meh with a 3s immunity, given that it doesn't even reach a 3s extention until major.
I can empathize with you. However, if aeon is taken down a notch or two, it opens Researchers up to recieving something to compensate - something that could potentially be far more fun than being an aeon bot, both on the giving and recieving ends.
Aeon is better than a lot of those things due to the nature of aeon being a catchall affliction. Which is a problem.
Aye, it is better than a lot of them. Are folks able to tumble while impaled, and do mutilated legs prevent tumbling (akin to how severed tendons used to)?
Thank you guys for giving some constructive feedback to sift through, I like seeing discussion being had in these threads over salt.
-Especially for someone trying to learn alot of the skills applications still, its better to see it from this perspective so I am appreciative when the information is displayed in an appropriate manner.
Except that's not how it works. Researchers won't get compensated because, as everyone here as argued, it won't influence them at all.
It is how it works. If Researchers' 1v1 strategies will not change due to a 3s immunity, then they are not affected. If the change truly does affect Researchers' 1v1 capabilities, you can easily push for something to compensate.
The burden of proof, however, will be on your envoy.
CRYSTALSPIN SHOCKSTONE <target> -- 3p, knocks off EQ based on timewarp (which will always be none or low in groups) too short
CAST ICEWALL <direction> -- huh? Doesn't stop tumble or leap
AEROCAST SQUALLS [<direction>] [DEMESNE] -- tiny chance to work
AEROCAST AIRNET [DEMESNE] -- wtf is this supposed to stop? (hint, it stops flying)
LAY LEGSNARE <direction> -- does anyone ever use legsnare? Pits are better
LAY PIT <direction> -- useful. Every org has these. I'm talking about relative difference here. Plenty of fighting occurs without trackers around anyway. Assuming both sides have trackers, it's a tossup who will have the pits in the room anyway.
WEAVE FASCINATION <target> -- not even sure what this does, because nobody uses it
UPSETSTOMACH: Effects: Dust balance loss (stack with mantakaya) -- again, paralysis doesn't stop tumble
Knockdown: Effects: Prone affliction, balance loss --ok... if you can on-demand knockdown when they cure aeon
LegTendon: Effects: Mutilatedrightleg or mutilatedleftleg affliction (Upon being afflicted by both, target is proned.) -- prone doesn't stop tumble
ENGAGE <player> -- doesn't stop anything
IPALE: Effects: Impaled afflicition -- useful I guess if the warrior has time to build up the wounds
CrushLeg: Effects: Mutilatedrightleg or mutilatedleftleg affliction (Upon being afflicted by both, target is proned.) -- doesn't stop tumble
STEED PINCHARGE <target> <direction> -- useful, though atm don't know of any hallicavs
WIND: Effects: Balance loss -- same as shockstone
Smashchest: Effect: Stun affliction -- stun too short, need time to build wounds
PLAY PERFECTFIFTH <target> -- already talked about eat earwort, tumble out........
MidnightMinuet: balance loss -- tiny balance loss (mayyybe 1s?)
FLING HANGEDMAN AT <target> -- this is the same as web, doesn't stop anyone
These are also things that Hallifax has that help prevent people from escaping. Saying "Hallifax has aeon to [hold someone down]" is disingenuous.
You forgot shieldstun, but that's just a 2s (maybe 2.5 with arti shield?) stun so it doesn't cover the gap either.
Look I don't want to be an asshole, but you're clearly just going through the wiki and throwing stuff out. You should know what these things do before you accuse me of being disingenuous.
Barrier, shieldstun, whisper, and pits are the only things from that actually are reasonable, assuming they're followed up precisely 3s later with another 2x aeon application to cover quicksilver (that could easily be cured in 1s or 2s) needing another hinder, etc. etc. etc. When you're committing 3 or 4 people to stop someone from running away, and the other team is only committing one or two, you're losing.
Also, at what point does theoretical ability get tossed out and reality get tossed in? If the nerf goes through, yes, I'll be shieldstunning when you cure aeon. But it's going to be shitty and ineffective while my group is getting crushed by huge burst damage.
Cyndarin, you're complaining you don't have Illuminati, well we don't have many (any?) TKs around, so the best option on the list is out.
A lot of the best abilities for 'keeping someone in the fight' are actually abilities to pull people in from other rooms. Abilities like empress, or beckon, or chainyank. These skills quickly pull enemies who tumble out right back in.
It's not a guild specific thing, but generally the more tarotists (especially tarot bards) an org/side has, the better they are general. Tarot paired with Bard just brings SO MUCH utility and versatility to a fight, with all kinds of control, and afflicting, and defenses, and mobility, and, and, and...
(If we're making arguments that the only reason Halli can keep people in the room is because of Aeon, then we're really digging deep for justifications)
Aeon is useful for stopping people from running and stopping them from sipping health. It seems relevant to look at how it will be affected before and after.
Also, institute makes sacrifices for not having such strong in room abilities.. I.E. no beckon, no ranged utility (aside from empress, but that requires a lust first) no mana-kill. If you want to complain about aeonfield don't put it into a vacuum please. Institute have minimal group utility aside from aeonfield, balestone, and tarot.
Serious question: Would you be happier with everyone having access to Aeon as-is instead of adjusting/correcting it to fit more comfortably in the post-overhaul meta? Given its strength (which you are acknowledging yourself, while also pointing out its versatility-- essentially agreeing with Lerad in that it can be made to fit any strategy), one of these needs to happen: 1) It should be made less important, or 2) More people should have access to it.
The amount of ridiculous in this thread is staggering. Did Ciaran really compare aeon command denial to death "command denial"? As in, "death also denies my commands, so I should get death immunity!"
Seriously?
I argued and stated why I think aeon's mechanics and the way they shut down offense is a problem. I compared it to every comparable command denial affliction I could remember off the top of my head. I laid out exactly where each of them stands in relation to the other, and why, despite their similarities, some of them are not subject to the same level of outcry as I am raising against aeon at a personal level. I acknowledged the differences between them and how they translate to differing levels of effectiveness and what that means for balance and comparison.
And for all that effort at engagement, I get thrown a facetious "but death" remark. For all that effort at providing both sides of the story and considering as many angles as I can look at, it is dismissed in an instant to "writing novels" from my perspective, and an accusation of creating unbalanced narratives to sway others to some partisan perspective.
Well, you can take your calls of asking for constructive suggestions to replace aeon, and stick it right up where the sun doesn't shine. I have better things to spend my time doing.
Cyndarin, you're complaining you don't have Illuminati, well we don't have many (any?) TKs around, so the best option on the list is out.
Hmph!
I'm not complaining, I'm just saying. Sure, illuminati are great, but it's not like we struggle to keep people locked down without them. Falmiis has TK, he uses barrier. I've been caught in it!
P.S. Fascination is transfix.
P.P.S. Squalls is not a "tiny chance to work." I hit that shit all the time.
P.P.P.S. Researchers have phenomenal group value. Like, some of the best in the game. Like Night user level value.
The amount of ridiculous in this thread is staggering. Did Ciaran really compare aeon command denial to death "command denial"? As in, "death also denies my commands, so I should get death immunity!"
Seriously?
Good lord, do I need to put /s behind that? I thought I was laying it on thick enough that you might notice.
You responded to a genuine effort at explanation and clarification with sarcasm. You belittled my opinion and deadwalled the discussion with a distraction and dismissed valid concerns without the decency to acknowledge them. You trivialise my post, and you expect me to say, "oh, he's just being sarcastic." You imply that my argument is ridiculous by bringing up an extreme and false comparison, and you're trying to jedi-handwave it away with a snide remark that insinuates I can't recognize sarcasm or that implies I can't take a joke. Well, I guess you're right.
Well, since I'm so obviously being too serious in what is obviously a joke thread, I can just go away, and this problem with aeon I've been arguing for will clearly dissipate into thin air, gone like the mist and delusional partisanship it obviously is, right? Oh, I hope my sarcasm isn't too offensive to you! /s
Comments
Edit: I'm not sure what you want me to do Shoel? Explain how aeon works? Why/how it can be cured? That's all in the thread here I think. Hopefully this post will help you see how changing aeon changes the meta of our relative orgs. (A meta which I don't think overly favors Hallifax, despite our classes being really strong.)
ABJURE WEB <target>CRYSTALSPIN CONVOKE <target>
CRYSTALSPIN SHOCKSTONE <target>
CAST ICEWALL <direction>
AEROCAST SQUALLS [<direction>] [DEMESNE]
AEROCAST AIRNET [DEMESNE]
LAY LEGSNARE <direction>
LAY PIT <direction>
WEAVE FASCINATION <target>
WEAVE PHANTOMWALL <direction>
UPSETSTOMACH:Effects: Dust balance loss (stack with mantakaya)== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
I'll go take my partisan hat off.
I honestly don't mind if we move away from aeon entirely but when my skillset revolves around the rapid application of aeon -- and I start losing passives for no reason then I'm uncertain as to what the point of having a skill set revolving around rapidly applying aeon is for. It you wanna make researchers spiritual illuminati, sure. I really hope timewarp function gets changed too 'cause quicksilver window will be pretty meh with a 3s immunity, given that it doesn't even reach a 3s extention until major.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Barrier, shieldstun, whisper, and pits are the only things from that actually are reasonable, assuming they're followed up precisely 3s later with another 2x aeon application to cover quicksilver (that could easily be cured in 1s or 2s) needing another hinder, etc. etc. etc. When you're committing 3 or 4 people to stop someone from running away, and the other team is only committing one or two, you're losing.
"Stopping tumble out of the room" is not a justification for keeping aeon.
1) It should be made less important, or
2) More people should have access to it.
Well, since I'm so obviously being too serious in what is obviously a joke thread, I can just go away, and this problem with aeon I've been arguing for will clearly dissipate into thin air, gone like the mist and delusional partisanship it obviously is, right? Oh, I hope my sarcasm isn't too offensive to you! /s
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it