What can I do against this

Dylara

So there was a raid, which is currently ongoing, but I can't do anything if I can be shut down in seconds like I have been in this log. Which happens quite often whenever I have to deal with raiders from Hallifax. Sorry about the no colours, I just c/p'd it from Mudlet into notepad.

Shaddus

Keep your pipes lit, number one. If you can afford them, artifact pipes are a good investment.

Synkarin

It's likely a priority issue.  Check out your slow-curing prios and move the steam_lighting (or something similiar, maybe steam_lightpipe?) up higher. Artifact pipes will help, but the issue here is likely that the sparkle/sip health is higher than lighting your pipes, so you just get stuck in aeon while is handles those things.

is there a config option to keep pipes lit? I'd check that out too to keep them lit in combat and gagged. 

(Nice tumble out of meteor too!)

Dylara

I am fairly positive that I have them set to be lit in combat and gagged, I'll have to go further through again, I know that I was having an issue a bit ago and did reinstall. Maybe it got nixed, but they are lit without me lighting them so.. I'll figure that out eventually.

Shaddus

I think a major problem people have is that even if they config the pipes to autorelight, the system only relights them if they see them going out. If you haven't lit your pipes since logging on, they'll be unlit no matter how you have it configured. Not only that, but the fact that it requires balance to light pipes slows people down.

CyndarinAscends

The short, be positive, will to live answer is update your prios, call for empress, etc etc.

The honest answer is: not a whole lot. It's why I created the aeon report. Currently, a group with multiple sources of aeon can defeat a group without multiple sources of aeon even with a significant skill gap in favor of those without because of 1) curing/offense lockout and 2) ease of reapplication. Aeon allows for complete offensive and defensive shut out, and the ease at which it can be reapplied as soon as it is cured means that unless the team is just brainless, multiple aeoners are going to keep you locked in aeon regardless of how great your prios are. This means your ability to tank doesn't really matter and your ability to escape or class skills that facilitate slipperyness don't matter, and unlike choke, they are at no disadvantage when using it. Unlike web spam or damage spam or whatever we order newbies to do during mass pk, aeon eliminates your ability to do anything effectively. 

Unfortunately as a melder, I get to witness this a lot. I'm pretty solid at curing out of the first round of aeon, but they always get me the second or third or fourth time. I have noticed they have gotten very good at reapplying aeon as soon as you cure out of it (the fact that aeonfield is completely stupid doesn't hurt either), and hitting your with asthma and the lockout affs repeatedly. Some will say "oh it's just group combat." That's a stupid position to take on this particular affliction type. 

So support the aeon report! 

P.S. Welcome to being the first target. Get ready to eat a lot of aeon.

Ciaran

Or she could learn to smoke steam.

If my auto-sipper didn't work, and I die to staffcast, I don't ask to nerf all sources of damage.

==== From the log ====

?:(a) 6800h, 9300m, 6800e, 10p, 26400en, 26400w elrxkb-
You eat a sprig of chervil.
Your bleeding slows as your blood clots.
?:(a) 6800h, 9300m, 6800e, 10p, 26400en, 26400w elrxkb-(diag)
Twytch eats a wafer of purity dust.
?:(a) 6800h, 9300m, 6800e, 10p, 26400en, 26400w elrxkb-
You move sluggishly into action.
?:(a) 6800h, 9300m, 6800e, 10p, 26400en, 26400w elrxkb-
Twytch takes a drink from a shimmering rainbow vial.
?:(a) 6800h, 9300m, 6800e, 10p, 26400en, 26400w elrxkb-
You may eat another herb that gives the sparkleberry effect.
?:(a) 6800h, 9300m, 6800e, 10p, 26400en, 26400w elrxkb-
A spinning sapphire around Ciaran beams a ray of blue light at you, causing a piercing headache 
between your eyes.
You are afflicted with an unknown affliction.
You are afflicted with an unknown affliction.
A spinning onyx around Twytch casts a sickly shadow over you.
?:(a) 6800h, 9300m, 6800e, 10p, 26400en, 26400w elrxkb-
You are:
surrounded by a sickly red light.
bleeding for 157 health.
afflicted by the Spider sphere.
afflicted by the Dragon sphere.
blind.
an insomniac.
moderately warped in time.
reckless.
afflicted with the curse of the Aeon.
unnaturally stupid.
addicted to potions.
hallucinating.
cursed with the healthleech.
You have 12 afflictions. (9.18s) (7.476s)

=====

That right there are two full aeon commands sent with steam balance and no asthma... There's more throughout the log.

Lerad

I don't want to turn this into an aeon bashing thread, but the comment "learn to smoke steam" is a grossly backhanded dismissal of valid concerns without taking into consideration the context of the arguments for and against the ability and its combat impact.

Aeon curing and proper slowcuring priorities do indeed require a more than passing grasp of combat knowledge to set up properly and execute. It requires investment of time and effort beforehand to learn the combat intricacies, and ensure system bugs are combed out before it will be able to differentiate between those that can cure out of aeon and those that can't cure out of aeon. Not a lot of people have the time to invest in this kind of effort, but it's a valid way to demarcate who is top-tier from who is not.

However, aeon reduces all combat to nothing but combat triggers, and with very little investment on the aeoner's side, it is an equalizer that also negates differentiation in terms of player skill in hinder and combat sense. Even the most skilled combatant is reduced to nothing but his triggers and system priorities from the moment he is aeoned to the moment he is not. There are very rare occasions when a manual input will be more effective than system coded responses in aeon to get out of aeon, and those would be to do things like tumble out of meteors, as mentioned above. While adding the strategical depth in the previous paragraph, in practice, it reduces combat to nothing but a ping battle and triggers.

Even then, the argument for aeon as a balanced ability that just needs to be countered by curing exists.

Until you bring in spammability and group combat.

Aeon abilities in general are powerless, barring a couple of outliers. EQ times are generally triple the cure time of aeon (3s vs 1s), and there is a speed defense against it. All of these taken into consideration, aeon spamming is still a powerful, viable, and prevalent tactic, where people literally do nothing but mash their aeon alias over and over. Simply because of how powerfully it negates the opponent's impact in combat. Even today, you still see aeon monkeys in much the same way as you see web or vines monkeys, bringing to the table at least as much, if not more, hinder than one. This is in the face of rapidly improving systems, streamlining of combat priorities and a better grasp of combat meta as a whole. Or, rather, you could argue that the better grasp of combat meta has precipitated a headlong rush into aeon superiority, as combatants on all sides start to see how devastatingly powerful it is at shutting down opponents.

In aeon, you literally (which means as-is-written) cannot use any of your active class abilities if you want to cure out of aeon. Once aeoned, you are figuratively stunned for 1s, assuming that you managed to send in the command to cure out of aeon without any ping. If you're off cure balance, or actually stunned etc, that's extended. The pure spammability of aeon in the game combined with its stun-like effect on combat has made it the premium hinder ability in groups. Even if you have a grand plan to hinder opponents with your kit, even if you practiced it over and over in the arena to perfection, all of that is rendered irrelevant in the face of aeon. Even when your aeon curing is 100% perfect, you're still effectively stunned for 1s everytime they succeed in hitting you with it. In groups - that's the most minimal effect it has on combat: at the very least, assuming all factors are arrayed in advantage against aeon, that's the bare minimum it will do. For an ability that is so prevalent, it is a problem.

All of the above commentary has been made without considering asthma (or anorexia before overhaul). Or the effect of passive aeon (that strips speed even when the target is aeoned) on the meta.

"Learn to cure", in the face of this, is really peripheral to the problem that aeon brings to the table. Is Dylara's slowcuring priorities optimized? Nope, it isn't. Does it really matter in the debate about how to deal with aeon? Not really.

Silvanus

Smoke steam every balance, eat dust every balance and drink lucidity every balance.

(Serious).

Ciaran

Manual curing from aeon is actually far more manageable than manual curing outside of aeon.  It would be pretty easy with just 3 buttons and some highlights.

If Dylara had simply paused the system and sent smoke steam (Or even just unpaused the system when aeon was cured after timing out) then she would have easily survived.

Seriously though, it's comical seeing how Cyndarin now has an issue with aeon after playing the game for however many years.  What has changed over those years? Oh, now you're playing in the org naturally opposed to the aeon org.

Aeon is strong.  Don't be mad just because you don't have it.  Gaudi has access some pretty crazy skills also (hekoskeri, highest dmg in the game, command denial, AEON, etc), but I guess they don't count because you're so skillful?

Edit:

Looking at the later part of your post (sorry for the hot-take Lerad!) I agree that it's one of the stronger group abilities, but if you start looking at group combat in large numbers, almost any ability becomes extremely strong.  You talk about aeon monkeys, but if everyone is aeoning, you're not effectively killing the target.  All any group needs is 1, max 2 aeon monkeys, and every org/group has access to them.

The problem is that Cyndarin wants to nerf aeon across the board, and in so doing, will nerf not only large groups but everything. In small groups or 1v1, aeon is an interesting and core mechanic.  I'm not going to get behind throwing that out because Cyndarin doesn't like dying.

Xenthos

Uh, a lot has changed.  The entire overhaul happened.  Aeon now requires you to smoke a pipe to cure it (previously a vial sip).  Some of the things that have changed include:
1) Lit pipe
2) Something in the pipe (vials can be linked to the liquidrift, so never had an issue of running out)
3) Reduced other afflictions means that passive abilities are more likely to pop up things that block aeon curing.
4) No more focus mind!!!

There are envoy reports to address some of this, but claiming that nothing has changed when an entire rewrite of the combat system happened is a bit weird.  Also, wrong.

Lerad

Ciaran said:

Manual curing from aeon is actually far more manageable than manual curing outside of aeon.

...

... What? I mentioned nothing about manual curing outside of aeon. What are you on about?

Aeon turns automated curing into something that resembles manual curing (one command at a time, delay between commands). It mimicks its effect, is the closest thing I can think of.

That doesn't make manual curing in aeon some kind of best-practice, or a smart move in any sense of the word. Are you seriously implying that because manual curing is viable in aeon, therefore that has any part in an argument about aeon being balanced? Are you serious? Is this a joke, are you being facetious? 

I can come up with any number of arguments to have aeon kept as it is. Its comparability to manual curing is the last thing I would cite as one reason.

As a note, I know your comment implying partisanship is directed at Celina, but I've been arguing against aeon for years now. One of the earliest posts I made about it was when Eventru was still around. I'm Glomdoring, which used to have the only aeon effect in the game that had to be cured by moving out of the room, and also the only (previously) room-wide aeon. Glomdoring also has access to one of the few aeons in the game that comes paired with stun (and a power cost).

Partisanship has nothing to do with aeon's power or arguments against it. It is an ability that brings a truckload of problems with it that, in my opinion, far outweighs the strategical dimension it adds to combat.

Synkarin

For the record, the aeon report in it's current iteration leaves aeon 1v1 alone. A 3 sec immunity literally doesn't affect 1v1 at all. 

Ciaran

Lerad said:

Aeon curing and proper slowcuring priorities do indeed require a more than passing grasp of combat knowledge to set up properly and execute. It requires investment of time and effort beforehand to learn the combat intricacies, and ensure system bugs are combed out before it will be able to differentiate between those that can cure out of aeon and those that can't cure out of aeon. Not a lot of people have the time to invest in this kind of effort, but it's a valid way to demarcate who is top-tier from who is not.

Oh no! I'm trapped in a quote

This is what I was responding to when talking about manual curing. I.E. aeon curing isn't that complicated.

To Xenthos I don't find curing out of aeon to be any more difficult than it was before.  Do you?

To Synkarin - I was in a spar today where I had to re-apply aeon right after the target cured it. I believe a 3s immunity would affect 1v1, but I admit that it could be mitigated.

I still maintain that this report is a classic attempt to nerf the other side, because we have aeon synergy, and you're attacking that.

Xenthos

Yep, I get aeon"locked" far more regularly now than I ever used to.  It also gets spammed way more now than it ever used to, because people have figured out that it's more powerful (and yes, I've fought against Hallifax before and I've gone through periods of aeon-spam, it's never been this bad).

Ciaran

You have logs?

If you're getting locked like Dylara, then that's another issue.

Xenthos

I don't keep logs, but I'm not sure you're aware how constantly your teammates are spamming/reapplying aeon these days.

Admittedly my post-overhaul curing still needs work (I think everyone's does), but that doesn't change that it's a very different beast than it used to be.

Edit: As an example, pre-overhaul, nobody used that aeonfield passive effect that reapplies aeon, now it's something I see regularly.

Synkarin

If they're curing out where you have to re-apply right after curing it, you didn't lock correctly in the first place. Even if you reapply it instantly after it's cured, then they'll cure it again 1 sec later and you'll still be off balance from applying it again, you're stuck right where you would be with immunity or without immunity.

1v1 not affected by a 3 sec immunity.

Synkarin

With focus now, aeon locking shouldn't be as bad. It was much worse before focus was implemented as it is due to the random curing of asthma. 9 times out of 10, when I got aeonlocked it was because dust cured something other than asthma, boning me. That won't happen with focus.

Lerad

Actually, complexity of figuring out the best way to cure aeon (and code that into a system) is the biggest remaining factor for keeping it. If the complexity is false, or if it doesn't add that layer of combat expertise and experience needed, then it doesn't add anything fun to combat at all. There serves very little reason to keep aeon, if the only remaining advantage (differentiate the really top-tier combatants who know their salt from the midbies, newbies, or less hardcore combatants) it brings to the combat meta is proven to be an illusion.

Aeon synergy, by the way, exists everywhere, because literally everything synergizes with aeon. Pits? Synergizes. Judge? Synergizes. Bleed? Synergizes. Damage? Synergizes. Aeon disrupts simultaneous commands and command stacking, reducing all the classical ways and tools to deal with all these varied offensive strategies to naught. You're forced to prioritize, again and again, what to cure first- and because it compounds on itself, the priority is always on itself. Aeon is always the first priority to cure (or anything that blocks aeon curing) to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. As a result, if it is offensive, it synergizes with aeon, because of the super-magnet-for-curing-priority that aeon serves (while blocking, at the same time, all other commands). Once you're in aeon, 100% of your curing capacity should, in theory, go into curing aeon. If you can land anything at all in conjunction with aeon, aeon will suck up all the curing priority of the opponent like an endless black hole, delaying opponent curing of whatever you packaged with the aeon until aeon is gone. This creates synergy - hamhanded, strategy-less synergy, but synergy it is.

Nerfing aeon isn't targeting specific groups that have aeon synergy, because everyone has synergy. Nerfing aeon has the effect of reducing the effectiveness of groups that rely on aeon prevalence: specific groups with more aeon than other groups. Hallifax, definitely, falls into this description, as it has more aeon than other orgs in general. Which has, incidentally, helped to re-create the theories and arguments in-practice rather than leaving it just in-theory. This prevalence of aeon that was given to Hallifax has showed us (or at least, me) how aeon itself is a problem. Reducing its prevalence itself won't solve the problems that aeon brings (my problem with aeon is not how available it is, but what it actually does) but in the absence of a more comprehensive solution, it is a bandaid that I would compromise for. The same, of course, applies to other abilities cut from the same cloth.

Ciaran

Xenthos said:

Edit: As an example, pre-overhaul, nobody used that aeonfield passive effect that reapplies aeon, now it's something I see regularly.

That's because it used to take us to 50% mana and 50% ego.  Now it has a more minor drawback since the buffs/debuffs overhaul.

Rolsand

AEON IS TOOOO GOOD.

Lerad

Okay, in an attempt to distract and stop myself from continuing to harp on about aeon, just to answer the question posed in the title of the thread... @Dylara: what Sidd says here is probably a good idea (once you've fixed up your slowcuring priorities a little):

Synkarin said:

With focus now, aeon locking shouldn't be as bad. It was much worse before focus was implemented as it is due to the random curing of asthma. 9 times out of 10, when I got aeonlocked it was because dust cured something other than asthma, boning me. That won't happen with focus.

Though when you do this, you'll want to take note, either to disable asthma curing when in sap (as opposed to aeon), as well as to disable focusing on asthma when not aeoned. It'd be a waste of beast balance/power if you do it all the time, or worse, if your opponent figures it out (or takes a blind shot to see if it is exploitable) they can use asthma to "steal" your beastfocus or power or even slow your curing.

Synkarin

(with m&m, there's now a config option to focus in slowcuring mod, I think everyone should have that on)

Shuyin

Ps hekoskeri doesn't even double Balance anymore since it's been added to the buffs system. As someone in this thread has so advised: deal with it, get good.

Twytch

I've been meaning to pull apart Researcher offense to see and maybe disprove its combat effectiveness 1v1. Basically, outside aeon (and supporting affs like timewarp and asthma), Researcher offense is pretty lackluster. More on this later when I have access to a laptop (so I can properly track things like bal/eq/cure times, durations, what affs are given by this or that ability, etc.)

CyndarinAscends

Ciaran said:

Manual curing from aeon is actually far more manageable than manual curing outside of aeon.  It would be pretty easy with just 3 buttons and some highlights.

If Dylara had simply paused the system and sent smoke steam (Or even just unpaused the system when aeon was cured after timing out) then she would have easily survived.

Seriously though, it's comical seeing how Cyndarin now has an issue with aeon after playing the game for however many years.  What has changed over those years? Oh, now you're playing in the org naturally opposed to the aeon org.

Aeon is strong.  Don't be mad just because you don't have it.  Gaudi has access some pretty crazy skills also (hekoskeri, highest dmg in the game, command denial, AEON, etc), but I guess they don't count because you're so skillful?

Edit:

Looking at the later part of your post (sorry for the hot-take Lerad!) I agree that it's one of the stronger group abilities, but if you start looking at group combat in large numbers, almost any ability becomes extremely strong.  You talk about aeon monkeys, but if everyone is aeoning, you're not effectively killing the target.  All any group needs is 1, max 2 aeon monkeys, and every org/group has access to them.

The problem is that Cyndarin wants to nerf aeon across the board, and in so doing, will nerf not only large groups but everything. In small groups or 1v1, aeon is an interesting and core mechanic.  I'm not going to get behind throwing that out because Cyndarin doesn't like dying.

Seriously though, it's comical how you have no grasp on context and dilute a substantially explained perspective to "BAD GUY NO LIKE DEATH." 

I have some unfortunate news for you, my War team, the team that got me the War seal and ultimately TA was composed of two tarot users. Tarot, for clarity's sake has aeon. Gaudi, as much as it is opposed to Hallifax, has significantly more access to aeon than my former organization, Glomdoring. Glomdoring, for clarity's sake, has been fighting with Hallifax since...I don't know...before Morbo days? I was an envoy then. I get it, it's catchy to play the partisanship card, it's all the rage these days from Moondancer reports and beyond. However, it brings nothing substantive to the table, and it's embarrassing that you immediately take it there when the greater context of both the report and the discussion (including endorsements and suggestions by the Researcher envoy) spans for more than Gaudi vs Hallifax. If you want to call me a dirty, partisan, Gaudibitch, fine, but my report still holds water despite your efforts to dismiss me as an envoy.

I'm really, really tired of the dismissive partisanship card that's been repeatedly played by the same group of players anytime an issue of balance is brought up. Aeon was an issue raised by the players when the overhaul was in progress, including wide support to remove it entirely from the game, including Hallifaxian envoys. But instead of addressing the the specifics concerns of aeon, you want to attack me, and that's fine. That's your business, I'm a big boy and I can handle it. However, what you choose not to address in the meantime is how aeon has not been subject to the same critical eye that stun and blackout have been, including stun immunity, removal from excessive sources like knockdown, the removal of some blackout sources during the overhaul, blackout immunity, and the reduction of blackout timers in dreamweaving by the very envoy jacking you off with likes right now. This is called precedence. Taking a solution we know to have been effective and applying it to existing problems for similar results. 

I'm not interested in players trying to defend their org turf when a genuine balance concern is brought to the table. Ultimately the goal is to maintain its viability but limit its accessibility (kind of like how the room ablaze report is going though you don't seem to level the same criticisms at Rivius for trying to eliminate room ablaze, a specifically Gaudiguchian mechanic). If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'll delete reports as I have numerous times in the past. However, support seems pretty universal save form the few hold outs (like yourself) that seem more intent on attacking me than the issue raised. I'm not envoying for the deletion of aeon, as Shedrin would prefer (would you like to attack him too?), but I am envoying aeon to be brought in line with the other crippling level afflictions like stun and blackout, as well as taking suggestions directly from the Northern envoys as to what they believe the best solution is. 

What could have Dylara done? Optimize her curing. Absolutely. Does that address the larger concerns of aeon? Not at all. I can say pretty confidently I have near optimized aeon curing, largely because Sidd created the prios I currently use rather than me! I still get aeon locked consistently. Is it because my curing is terrible? As far as I can tell, no, I consistently cure out of it. The issue is that it is repeatedly applied ad infinitum for low to no cost, and I cannot react as a player beyond watching my system cure and waiting for that window where I can then react. I do not find mechanics that take reaction and counterplays out of the hands of players to be interesting or constructive to the PK community. Watching systems cure is not an interesting mechanic. Infinity stun chains, aeon locks, sleep locks, balance locks, etc. If you'd look outside your box for a minute, you'd see that I consistently oppose these types of mechanics because they are terrible for everyone that is not the person using them. 

You think aeon is an "interesting" mechanic. I fundamentally disagree. I don't think "remove your target's ability to compete," is an interesting mechanic, which is fundamentally what aeon does. Just like sleep lock, or Nihilists balance lock. Your target is not a threat to you, is not pursuing any kill condition of offense against you, because aeon requires a complete investment in curing aeon. No exceptions. That being said, my report doesn't aim to eliminate it from the game entirely. 

So, new perspective maybe! Don't be such a superdouche to me for no reason. A lot has changed, specifically the enormous affliction changeover lovingly called "the overhaul." There's a conversation here, try engaging in that. Of course, you made a whole post to call me partisan only to specifically, and I assume in a non intentionally ironic way, point out that Gaudiguch has AEON too. So maybe this is lost on you. 

(Oh spoiler alert, when several players, including some Hallifaxian envoys, were asking for aeon's outright removal, I opposed its removal. You must be crushed now.)

P.P.S. Gaudiguch has the highest damage in the game? With what? Up until like...this post...it has always been Geomancers and Magnagora. 

Dylara

Shuyin said:

Ps hekoskeri doesn't even double Balance anymore since it's been added to the buffs system. As someone in this thread has so advised: deal with it, get good.

I am trying! (Steam is now an artipipe, so suck it not staying lit pipe)

Falaeron

I can confirm, since getting an artie pipe I've been dying to aeon a lot less than I used to.

Yarith

Man, I wish I knew a better way as a researcher to spend my balance in combat than to use aeon.

Ciaran

Shuyin said:

Ps hekoskeri doesn't even double Balance anymore since it's been added to the buffs system. As someone in this thread has so advised: deal with it, get good.

That's awesome to hear! I thought it was still outside of the overhaul.  Pardon me.

I think that with ablaze providing a damage increase, pyros reach a higher damage potential than geos, but of course geo takes the cake with passive tic damage.

Look, I obviously can't reach into your brain and know the motivation for this report, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not arguing that aeon isn't super strong. It is, it's deadly.  We track who gets aeoned, and who cures aeon to reapply it.  Why don't you track who gets aeoned to salt them or gust them?  I think the burden should be on you to improve how you deal with aeon instead of nerfing it.