Which I'd point out in a theme game, this could be fairly close to roleclaiming.
I think Celina is the better option, but if my "paranoia" is correct. Well... Synkarin just asked everyone in the game to provide a partial roleclaim that may interact with powers unique to the game.
Right now, I am somewhat suspicious of Celina, having followed the back and forth between her and Ssaliss. While she does have some good defensive points, she also says some things that ring false, mostly assertions about how certain things will prove her innocence when I don't think that's actually true: it just proves that some of her other assertions weren't lies. I'm not convinced she's scum though.
Which brings me to Ssaliss, who HAS been being very aggressive.
Shaddus has been discounting the only daytime tool we have for discovering scum: tracking the formation of bandwagons and how people decide to join, switch, and leave bandwagons. While I brought up the (correct) point that just being on a bandwagon doesn't mean you're scum, the way you participate in them can reveal scumminess after the fact, as scum are (probably) the only ones acting on any real information. In other words, outside of powers revealing identities, at first everyone else should be voting more or less at random - they're shooting in the dark or following baseless hunches. The only people who can act to a pattern are scum, because they have information.
I don't have any reason to believe Luce isn't scum, even if Celina turns out to be a townie. Again, the only folks acting on full information at this point are investigator-type roles and scum. If Celina isn't inventing this 'visions' power, it seems like that person has been passing her (and her only) information each night. That probably rules out Luce also having an investigative power on top of his Phoenix Wright ability. In other words, him happening to protect someone who turns out to be town is either sheer luck and he's a townie (as he would not be aware) or scum acting on his knowledge that she is or isn't scum. If she turns out to be townie, it could well be a scum ploy to appear innocent.
If she turns out to be scum, on the other hand, it doesn't necessarily implicate Luce as scum either, of course. Again, he could either then have been scum tipping his hand or a townie making a bad guess. In the case that Celina IS scum though, it seems actually really unlikely that another scum would so obviously defend her.
In thinking through this, I think that the best move right now is to
Vote: Celina
as it gives us the largest chunk of information. She's interacted with the largest number of other people, and forced a bunch of other people to make counter claims. On top of the weird false conclusions I see, resolving those claims gives us a very high chance of ferreting out at least one scum - potentially more if she herself IS scum.
NO.
unvote
vote: Enyalida
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Celina's claim about me is the exact same as Saran's claim about me, you both watched me at night and I did nothing.
So if Celina's claim turns false, then maybe, just maybe I didn't do nothing, but something (which even if it is false, it doesn't mean I actually did something, but it means there's a chance!)? Which helps you how and says what about me exactly?
You would still have no idea if I actually did anything, and if I did, what that was?
Celina's other claim is that she tried to watch Ssaliss and was unable to. So we lynch her, she flips townies, we know she's been telling the truth, but now she's dead and can't help us anymore. She flips scum, and we know she's been lying about everything, so maybe there is no visionary/medium type or bad guy scum blocker?
I don't really think it's a good idea to lynch the one potential good guy that we have quite a bit of information on. I think we have more to lose by lynching her than we have to gain by verifying the statements she's made.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm not seeing the benefits.
And I'm not seeing how we ideally wouldn't already know who is what anyway. We're walking around a lab and I can't see that people are chimaera, human, kitsune etc? That doesn't make much sense, even if powers are related to race.
Celina's claim about me is the exact same as Saran's claim about me, you both watched me at night and I did nothing.
So if Celina's claim turns false, then maybe, just maybe I didn't do nothing, but something (which even if it is false, it doesn't mean I actually did something, but it means there's a chance!)? Which helps you how and says what about me exactly?
You would still have no idea if I actually did anything, and if I did, what that was?
Celina's other claim is that she tried to watch Ssaliss and was unable to. So we lynch her, she flips townies, we know she's been telling the truth, but now she's dead and can't help us anymore. She flips scum, and we know she's been lying about everything, so maybe there is no visionary/medium type or bad guy scum blocker?
I don't really think it's a good idea to lynch the one potential good guy that we have quite a bit of information on. I think we have more to lose by lynching her than we have to gain by verifying the statements she's made.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm not seeing the benefits.
And I'm not seeing how we ideally wouldn't already know who is what anyway. We're walking around a lab and I can't see that people are chimaera, human, kitsune etc? That doesn't make much sense, even if powers are related to race.
That is one of the weird things about mafia, especially flavoured mafia. I originally wanted to have the mafia game be an open game, where everyone would know each other's name, role, species and power to resolve that particular issue, but making a game open generally leads to an entirely different way of playing the game, and I wanted the first game to be as familiar with other mafia games that people may have tried in the past, hence it was redesigned to fit a closed game.
Just a small aside there. We now return to your regularly scheduled backstabbing and paranoia.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
@Synkarin, the name list was public as far as I was aware, anything else is something that can potentially impact the game. As Celina was enjoying reminding people, Lusternia mafia games can be weird and unique in their implementation of the rules. The reason we shouldn't know races however is because there is an assumption that the mafia are all Chimera, knowing who is a Chimera would mean just lining them all up against the wall and lynching them til the game ends.
For everyone else... can we just lynch one of these two? This just keeps going around in circles now. We shouldn't lynch Celina because she might be town? And the possibility of her being town outweighs the possibility that she's scum? Plus, while I agree that not necessarily all Chimaera are in the mafia, having both of them claim Chimaera doesn't help matters.
I think you're being pretty obtuse. I explained why I felt lynching her to verify didn't really help us. You haven't really refuted with any reasoning countering that
What exactly do we learn by lynching Celina that I haven't already pointed out, or what about my assessment is incorrect?
Your assessment relies on everyone believing what she has said is the truth, in reality she hasn't actually given us anything that she couldn't have faked.
You know your role but no one else does, the only thing I know for certain is that you did not act on night two. I have no way of knowing that she is a tracker, I have no way of knowing she even tracked you night one. Two people attempting to confirm each other is not unheard of for the scum. ("Oh, it's fine we're confirmed go look elsewhere now")
She claims she knows who this vision investigator is but of course she could never tell anyone, she revealed Riluna's role after Riluna practically claimed (she could have also chosen to take Riluna's hint and tried to bury that coming up, which is what the town should normally do). As has been pointed out she could have been just claiming knowledge of these facts and then when Riluna said too much Celina could have leapt on this to reinforce her claim.
Given that the town are an uninformed majority, none of us actually have any way to know if there is either a tracker or this version of an investigator in the town, no one can say "no that doesn't exist", though I've already mentioned that Celina's power and mine are variations of each other (And she claimed after). There's also no confirmation that the vision investigator's results going to Celina actually means anything, we don't know if only Celina receives the result or if the investigator themselves chooses. Given the more common implementation would be that the investigator chooses, it also means the investigator can choose incorrectly. They can unknowingly feed information to the mafia (a reason why these roles typically change who they're investigating and feeding that information to every night.)
If we choose to trust Celina, I feel we are also encouraging the investigator (if they exist) to continue funneling information to her. If she is the mafia then she can ignore scum results, I feel the only way you would move to lynch her is if someone claimed investigator, called her scum, and got killed to confirm it. Such is a dangerous place for any town to put anyone into.
What happens if it gets to lynch or lose? Because of the pedestal you seem to place her upon she could literally just say anyone is scum and the town would jump on them. Of course, having someone in that position is desirable for the scum.
If Celina dies and is revealed as town then the information she has given us is considered true. Most importantly, the vision investigator. We would more likely trust people saying they received an investigation vision and well tracking isn't exactly the most useful power as Celina would have to happen to track someone that made a nightkill and try to not get that confused with anyone else that has a power that wouldn't prevent said nightkill. (For example, if I hadn't already claimed and I was tracked visiting someone who died that night Celina might claim me scum even if the entirety of the remaining town also visited that person on the same night)
I also feel that part of your defense of Celina is because... well you've been kinda defending her, if she's lynched and is scum then you're probably next.
You rely too much on night powers and value them far too highly, night powers are an extra, the core of the game is in the interaction throughout the day phase. Anyone's night power can be secondary to how people have interacted with her throughout the game. As a simple example, aside from yourself, we would also start to question Luce and his motivations should she flip scum. Giving direction to the town which is sorely needed because honestly this game has become rather dull and the consistent pushing for the town to do nothing is just going to make this thread drag on for weeks until the town lose because they have not done anything out of fear.
Perhaps also for @Kiradawea, I also feel like half the game isn't really playing, or only barely so.
Which makes much of this feel a bit pointless.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I feel, at this point, it is in the town's best interest to disregard Saran. I think his stance is more a continuation of his original position and defense of Riluna more than a reasonable assessment of the current issues before us. Again and again his posts are misrepresentations of Synkarin and myself (I personally killed Riluna, Synkarin has me on a pedastal, the town is not doing anything out of fear, etc) to fit his own narrative.
It should be made clear that the only reason I revealed anything is because Saran forced me to with his roleclaim. I did not reveal Riluna originally because it would have been really stupid to do so. Riluna, in her wild over reaction to everything at that point in the game decided to reveal to get me lynched. She did not drop any "hints," she explicitly stated she was role claiming. It's literally in her post that she was role claiming. The two of you want to react unpredictably and irrationally to situations and then blame us for reacting as best we can and declare us scummy for doing so. That is simply poor judgement. If you are going to force information out of me, it does anyone little good if you have predetermined that whatever the information is, I should be lynched.
What we have at this moment is a tracker who is also receiving reliable visions from an unknown source. I think I have divulged more information than anyone at this point, some of it confusing, but as transparent as possible. There is little reason to keep what I know secret at this point after Saran outed me the first day. Yet again and again Saran is going to accuse me of "typical scum tactics," while ignoring the fact that this much attention drawn to myself is about the last thing a scum would do.
We're spinning our wheels with this argument. You gain nothing from lynching me at this point other than proving that I was not lying, but no new information about possible scum.
@Saran - Yeah, you really just verbosely re-iterated what I already said. That being that lynching her only accomplishes one thing. We would know one way or another without a doubt that she was being honest or lying. Our position doesn't really improve, there's still lots of open-ended questions. For instance, if she flips scum, Luce is still likely town and he just likely believed Celina the first round, for the reasons already presented in the thread. If she flips town, we just wasted a townie. We have other routes to take at this point, I feel we'd learn more by lynching someone like Allyrianne or Azureus at this point than lynching Celina.
As for the visionary investigator type. They can possibly let someone else know about their visions, and they can choose who to inform. (as long as they are able to choose)
Anyway - the town isn't being pushed to do nothing, which is the common theme in all your posts. At the moment, I'm voting to lynch Shaddus. I don't think it's beneficial to lynch Celina to verify her claims. Sure, she may be scum, but so may you, so for the same reason I don't think it's beneficial to lynch you, it's not beneficial to lynch her. There are other ways to verify information than lynching.
"'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in." -Synkarin's Lament.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
I'd really just like the Town to do something. I'm more suspicious of the people who aren't doing anything than the people who are being accused of doing too much, frankly.
Lynching Celina basically shows whether all the people who have been bandwagon-ing her since day 1 are right to do so. Whoever chose to rely on her for visions would have to turn elsewhere. We could lose a tracker. Celina has been forced into roleclaiming early on, has actively discounted lynching people she knew or believed to be town, and has (at least in my reading) been fairly consistent. Think on it this way: we know a lot, lot, lot about Celina, and compare that to how much we know about, say, Shaddus. Or Azureus. Or Ayisdra. Hell, even Ssaliss. In my book, we already have a lot to work with when Celina is involved. She could be caught in a lie, as there is concern that she's lying, and it's difficult to successfully perpetuate a lie from Day One onward. But what is there to comment on for those who have offered less? Not so much. If we lynch Celina and she is town, everyone who has fought so hard for her to die suddenly becomes a target. Quiet people would remain under the radar, and it would be easy for them to do so. That's not ideal, imo.
I'm also a bit curious regarding kitsunes, but that might just be because I had no idea they were in this game, and I'm wondering how they fit into the concept of the chimaera labs. Humans = lab assistants, chimaeras = experiments, kitsunes = experiments gone wrong? Who knows. There's also only two of them, compared to the oodles of humans and chimaeras skipping about. Makes them an unexpected minority, which might mean something and... honestly, it might not. Lynching foxy!Shaddus might answer that question, but it's possible I'm the only one who feels that question needs answering. After all, it's safe I think to assume that humans and chimaeras are a mixed bag; why not the two kitsunes? But also, why only two? Hmmm.
(Unrelated: what does the kitsune say?! Ding ding ding da ding ding ding~)
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Vis-a-vis: your point about people not playing or only slightly so.
This is the most intense mafia game I've ever played, and there's so much overanalysing that I'm afraid to post something without seeming scummy or whatever. I read every post, I'm just not sure how to respond without suddenly declaring that I'm scummy or that I'm suspicious for <X> reason.
(Unrelated: what does the kitsune say?! Ding ding ding da ding ding ding~)
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Perhaps also for @Kiradawea, I also feel like half the game isn't really playing, or only barely so.
Which makes much of this feel a bit pointless.
Hrm? Sorry, but I don't get exactly what you're asking of me here. If you feel there are players who aren't playing, then lynch them. People who don't post at all are defined as those who actually don't post at all. Those are at the risk of being eliminated from the game. But just being somewhat silent is a very valid strategy. It's the players own responsibility to force others into voting and speaking, and in using what is said and what is not said in order to determine who are the known minority. Keep in mind that people with different levels of skill and experience. Some are skilled at talking and making others talk. Others prefer to quietly spend their time hyper-analyzing everything. As game-master, I should be able to enable both playstyles.
'course ultimately you guys should be able to figure it out already. I mean, I've already managed to figure out who all the scum are! ... wait.
Seriously though, what exactly are you asking of me?
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
I'd really just like the Town to do something. I'm more suspicious of the people who aren't doing anything than the people who are being accused of doing too much, frankly.
Lynching Celina basically shows whether all the people who have been bandwagon-ing her since day 1 are right to do so. Whoever chose to rely on her for visions would have to turn elsewhere. We could lose a tracker. Celina has been forced into roleclaiming early on, has actively discounted lynching people she knew or believed to be town, and has (at least in my reading) been fairly consistent. Think on it this way: we know a lot, lot, lot about Celina, and compare that to how much we know about, say, Shaddus. Or Azureus. Or Ayisdra. Hell, even Ssaliss. In my book, we already have a lot to work with when Celina is involved. She could be caught in a lie, as there is concern that she's lying, and it's difficult to successfully perpetuate a lie from Day One onward. But what is there to comment on for those who have offered less? Not so much. If we lynch Celina and she is town, everyone who has fought so hard for her to die suddenly becomes a target. Quiet people would remain under the radar, and it would be easy for them to do so. That's not ideal, imo.
I'm also a bit curious regarding kitsunes, but that might just be because I had no idea they were in this game, and I'm wondering how they fit into the concept of the chimaera labs. Humans = lab assistants, chimaeras = experiments, kitsunes = experiments gone wrong? Who knows. There's also only two of them, compared to the oodles of humans and chimaeras skipping about. Makes them an unexpected minority, which might mean something and... honestly, it might not. Lynching foxy!Shaddus might answer that question, but it's possible I'm the only one who feels that question needs answering. After all, it's safe I think to assume that humans and chimaeras are a mixed bag; why not the two kitsunes? But also, why only two? Hmmm.
(Unrelated: what does the kitsune say?! Ding ding ding da ding ding ding~)
I guess if you want more, I am willing to share a bit if you really want to know...
Firstly, I am not an experiment gone wrong, thank you very much. I am a beautiful kitsune. Secondly, it was just bad luck that I happen to get stuck down here during this mess. There is no real plot from me besides it is in my best interest that the mafia are finished so that I can go home.
Vis-a-vis: your point about people not playing or only slightly so.
This is the most intense mafia game I've ever played, and there's so much overanalysing that I'm afraid to post something without seeming scummy or whatever. I read every post, I'm just not sure how to respond without suddenly declaring that I'm scummy or that I'm suspicious for <X> reason.
Don't worry about that. Everyone is scummy in one way or another. Heck, even staying silent is scummy. The correct approach to take is "suspect everyone, even the people who everyone thinks is innocent". No one is ever truly confirmed until they're dead; everything else is potentially a lie.
Also, re: kitsunes: It's either not generally suspicious just because they're kitsunes, or it's the most brazen reverse psychology ever attempted. They had all the opportunity in the world to just keep silent about it (like half the people so far have), after all, and no one would be the wiser.
I guess you're right about the information we'd get from lynching Celina. The problem there is that while Celina has professed a lot of knowledge that confirms the innocence of various other people, she hasn't named any names (even without attaching roles to those names). If she had, my post would be true - killing her would either vet a chunk of people or call into question a chunk of people.
Also, the only name she has that isn't public knowledge is the name of the one sending her these visions. Personally, I'd prefer if that name is kept secret for now.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Cool beans, thanks for the info @Ayisdra. It's just helpful in a flavor game to have an idea of what the flavor is. The more you knowwww~!
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I'll be honest, I'm playing odd of gut hunches more than anything else. Gut tells me Ssaliss is dirty, but I can't prove it. Shaddus didn't come across as such to me. Synk and Celina have an awesome bromance that's worth watching depending on the results of things.
For the sake of making something happen though, because I really don't think that a no lynch benefits us all today.
Vis-a-vis: your point about people not playing or only slightly so.
This is the most intense mafia game I've ever played, and there's so much overanalysing that I'm afraid to post something without seeming scummy or whatever. I read every post, I'm just not sure how to respond without suddenly declaring that I'm scummy or that I'm suspicious for <X> reason.
In a way this is part of my issue with the framing around lynching. The constant repetition that we shouldn't lynch without proof, to me, leads to this mindset that anyone lynching is probably scum. When in reality, the more common tactic for the town is to just randomly run around building up votes on people and pressuring them, watching who gets involved in which votes, watching who doesn't, etc. Sure, you might have people saying you're suss for voting for someone but there's also the state of "everyone's doing it".
Of course, overanalysing is just part of the game too, for a townie its how you win, but like... there have seriously been games where I've just rolled a die used that to pick someone to vote for because there really isn't any need for a reason right now. This is part of the reason I haven't really focused that much on who is voting for who and the like, unless it really sticks out, because voting is normal and something we should all be doing.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
At this point, is there really any reason we shouldn't be voting for Shaddus? He's currently at 5 votes (including Tarkenton's) so 3 more and this day ends.
Honestly, this is partly why I was trying to get things moving (which, I suppose, might've come across as somewhat aggressive in the process). It seems very few people are keen on starting arguments and keeping them going, and when no one does that, nothing at all happens.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
At this point, is there really any reason we shouldn't be voting for Shaddus? He's currently at 5 votes (including Tarkenton's) so 3 more and this day ends.
I counter your question with my own - why are we voting for Shaddus and not someone else? Or perhaps you missed where I said killing Shaddus goes against our goal of killing scum. Or maybe you saw are ignoring it on purpose.
At this point, is there really any reason we shouldn't be voting for Shaddus? He's currently at 5 votes (including Tarkenton's) so 3 more and this day ends.
I counter your question with my own - why are we voting for Shaddus and not someone else? Or perhaps you missed where I said killing Shaddus goes against our goal of killing scum. Or maybe you saw are ignoring it on purpose.
That's decidedly possible.
Given that I've already explained that I'm town and I have no powers to help people, and even voted for myself to help with the bandwagon, certain people have jumped on said bandwagon to lynch a townie. Lynching me solves absolutely nothing, but some people seem to want to lynch me anyway to "speed things up". I'd keep an eye on them, especially if I do get lynched or nightkilled.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
I think Celina is the better option, but if my "paranoia" is correct. Well... Synkarin just asked everyone in the game to provide a partial roleclaim that may interact with powers unique to the game.
That is one of the weird things about mafia, especially flavoured mafia. I originally wanted to have the mafia game be an open game, where everyone would know each other's name, role, species and power to resolve that particular issue, but making a game open generally leads to an entirely different way of playing the game, and I wanted the first game to be as familiar with other mafia games that people may have tried in the past, hence it was redesigned to fit a closed game.
Just a small aside there. We now return to your regularly scheduled backstabbing and paranoia.
What exactly do we learn by lynching Celina that I haven't already pointed out, or what about my assessment is incorrect?
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
'course ultimately you guys should be able to figure it out already. I mean, I've already managed to figure out who all the scum are! ... wait.
Seriously though, what exactly are you asking of me?
Firstly, I am not an experiment gone wrong, thank you very much. I am a beautiful kitsune. Secondly, it was just bad luck that I happen to get stuck down here during this mess. There is no real plot from me besides it is in my best interest that the mafia are finished so that I can go home.
Don't worry about that. Everyone is scummy in one way or another. Heck, even staying silent is scummy. The correct approach to take is "suspect everyone, even the people who everyone thinks is innocent". No one is ever truly confirmed until they're dead; everything else is potentially a lie.
Ssaliss: Celina, Tarkenton (2)
Celina: Saran, (1)
Shaddus: Ssaliss, Sylandra, Shaddus, Synkarin (4)
Synkarin: Ayisdra (1)
Enyalida: Siam (1)
14 around makes 8 for a lynch.
I'll be honest, I'm playing odd of gut hunches more than anything else. Gut tells me Ssaliss is dirty, but I can't prove it. Shaddus didn't come across as such to me. Synk and Celina have an awesome bromance that's worth watching depending on the results of things.
For the sake of making something happen though, because I really don't think that a no lynch benefits us all today.
That's decidedly possible.
Given that I've already explained that I'm town and I have no powers to help people, and even voted for myself to help with the bandwagon, certain people have jumped on said bandwagon to lynch a townie. Lynching me solves absolutely nothing, but some people seem to want to lynch me anyway to "speed things up". I'd keep an eye on them, especially if I do get lynched or nightkilled.