It's also not about not being capitalistic or whatever, the simple reality is that prices should be set at a point where they generate money.
As i said, setting them high and getting a few people to purchase them is one way. Setting them lower is another getting more people to purchase them, this is how microtransactions work. People spend heaps of money on phone games, not because they ask for twenty dollars up front but because they ask you for small amounts over a longer period of time.
Yes, the audiences are different numbers, but it would be interesting at least to see how many people would buy artifacts if they were cheaper. I think it was the figurine rune that I grabbed when it dropped in price.
Capitalism has downsides; basically, since things are priced roughly the average of what the total population can spend, it means that there will always be those who fall below that price, and those that fall above it. Water is wet, too, by the way.
I agree with what @Malarious said: the demi+ perk is hilariously overpowered. A lot of the 'big moves' in Lusternia is balanced around power as a resource. Sure, things like Discipline sped it up, but that only meant that potentially anyone can reach the cap (everyone has Discipline). Now, though, it's either Lucidian or bust (for a power-heavy class). We replaced King Faeling with Lord Lucidian.
I am still hoping for changes to cameo. You won't be able to swap for stats, so it lost a lot of value to me really, I can't optimize for the goal.
Lucidian demi+ perk is crazy powerful for any power intensive guild, let's go Guardians/Wiccans/Bards!
Good thing it's gated off behind a 1000 credit artifact, such that only flush players will have such incredibly powerful abilities. Wait, that's not a good thing.
This. For 1k credits, you might as well buy powerplex gems.
He's not talking about extra reserves or reserve regeneration, he's talking about the demi+ perk that makes you shift 1 power from reserves to prompt every 6s instead of 8s, thereby changing the dynamic of power-sensitive things (such as inqui or sacrifice) or power-intensive things (such as the bard pfifth-octave-dchord stuff).
I feel like I'm gimping myself by being a fink now. I'm a fink for rp reasons, and I'm missing out on the better powers for hunting stuff like viscanti get. I get boosts to dramatics, but, I don't have lessons for even learning influence, let alone dramatics, and it's going to be a long time before I can afford the +2000 lessons to invest in the skills. That was why I wanted a different level 50 power. Even the perfume scent idea would be decent, cause it wouldn't require learning dramatics. I picked fink knowing I'd never use influence so I invested heavily in other skills.
The race overhaul was supposed to do the opposite of making me feel like my race is a bad choice. I now want to reincarnate into viscanti.
EDIT: I see stacks of people excited that they can sell their hats and be the race they rp as...and I am about to ask for a fink race hat...sigh.
edit: Saran Absolutely no one said any of that, or anything close to it and it's pretty uncool that you just took it there. Not cool at all.
For the record, just to dispel the magical illusion of Achaea's pricing:
Sash of Caymus: 2500 credits (+3 intelligence)
Logosian Ring: 2000 credits (increases health sip by 30%)
Lupine Bow 22% faster 1000 credits
Shooting Addon +500 credits
Soulpiercer 63 180 246 1600 credits (you need two of these)
Now hold on there horsey. Achaea has a very different system in terms of PK, and we really cant compare the two. For example, you mentioned stats, the reason this is so expensive is because, unlike lusternia, stats cannot be gained so easily and by so many skills. I think I can only recall maybe 2 or 3 skills in Achaea that actually enhance stats. Additionally, another example is the illusion artifact (to cast one), as well as anti-illusion, which are so expensive because of how much a big deal illusions are in Achaean combat, which is because, unlike Lusternia, anti-illusion is not found so easily, thus able to be expanded upon. Additionally, Achaea thrives on ranged combat tactics, such as Bows for LoS and meteors/lava spouts/etc. for in-Area targeting, of which Lusternia has near none of except Zap (which we can all agree is pretty lol).
I have been a member of Achaea for near 8 years, and yes I can agree that buying the big arties does really boost you, but Achaea's main focus has always been: Combat. It has never been an environment that cared much for RP or Questlines, so it only makes sense that the admin would put all focus and resource gain on combat enhancement, which should really not be such a focus in lusternia.
As for Gnome and Fink, it isnt just the stats (even though Gnome has the highest Int in the game, and roughly acceptable Con and Cha), but it is also that they are a purchase race that seems to have gotten gimped. Additionally, the players that had purchased these races for what they thought they were getting are basically having their entire purchase pulled inside-out. If it was just a stat point change here and there, then I cant complain, since it is based on the same system, but the race system is being completely overhauled, thus why I am bringing to question the cost and return pricing of Gnome and Fink.
Again, I will say, I think Gnome and Fink at this point should be made free races, unless they actually get some interesting perks as per 500 creds.
We're currently in the process of looking at all skills and blessings that previously gave stats, and converting them to the new system. There's some polishing to do on a couple of sources, but overall it's balanced out.
We're still doing away with the +1 to all stats at Titan, and looking at a new line of H/M/E related endowments to replace the current ones. No further word on how we're implementing that yet. Argleblasters are already converted to the new system and the stat bonuses that was given to Illithoid and Kephera for their respective empowered avatars has been converted to the new perk system.
So here's how it works:
Stats that gave + to Con and Cha will give bonuses to health and ego respectively, dexterity will increase balance speed and intellect equilibrium and strength buffs now give universal damage boosts. These work on the same /10 system as everything else.
Adjusting balance and eq are delicate subjects, these are being looked over and making sure any gains aren't a repeat of the A/MMR scenarios. If you take aside the aforementioned sources that are still being looked over, players will cap at 5/8 (including use of domoth blessings) to balance and 5/5 to equilibrium, which cannot be maintained on a permanent basis. We'll still be looking at this to see how it affects game play and combat balance.
The same level of caution goes with giving anyone a universal damage modifier, same sources aside, all bar one of the gains are 1/2, with one 2/3 in there. The other is a 2/5 but that's specifically blunt damage.
As mentioned previously there's a couple of sources we're looking at this is due to their ability to affect multiple stats, both positively and negatively. Otherwise it's very much converted.
I was vocal about removing +bal/+eq from the races because it made classes hard to balance. Shifting these bonuses to a tiered and capped system will no longer make certain races the be-all and end-all choices for combat... but still creates situations where an envoy discussion cannot settle on whether an ability (or a combination of abilities) will be balanced or not because of the potential for speeding its balance/equilibrium speeds.
Balance and equilibrium in all IRE combat has always been a very sensitive limit to balance out the potency of an ability, and cases where variations are available can blur the lines and make things exceedingly difficult to see objectively. Any discussion on an ability HAS to take into account how fast it can be performed, and while +bal/+eq has been in every IRE game, always, they have also always been a source of frustration when tweaking abilities. Today, with the overhaul, we are given the chance to be the first, and possibly the only IRE game to remove +bal/+eq variances from the entire combat scene, and therefore be in the unique position where admin and players and envoys alike can all view and weigh abilities based on their stated bal/eq time, and remove all those speculative, "if you get this five minute buff and that three hour buff, you can become overpowered" discussions from the table.
I would like to express my serious reservations about re-introducing these +bal/+eq variances into the game, tiered and capped, or otherwise. Please reconsider.
Additionally, another example is the illusion artifact (to cast one), as well as anti-illusion, which are so expensive because of how much a big deal illusions are in Achaean combat, which is because, unlike Lusternia, anti-illusion is not found so easily, thus able to be expanded upon. Additionally, Achaea thrives on ranged combat tactics, such as Bows for LoS and meteors/lava spouts/etc. for in-Area targeting, of which Lusternia has near none of except Zap (which we can all agree is pretty lol).
...
By the way, every mage and druid class in Lusternia has a LoS attack, and some non-mage/druid classes also have versions of it. Tarot (and meteor) is also far more available in Lusternia (every single city bard and guardian class) than in Achaea. Lusternia's zap is something that is literally (potentially) available to every demigod and above, and which achaea doesn't have an equivalent of (unless all dragons have an area attack).
Edit: I forgot that Lusternian Tarot doesn't have a meteor attack, and the one that's available in Lusternia is Astro meteor, which is not really an area attack. But well, I'm pretty sure we have Achaea beat on the LoS front, at least.
I don't PK in Achaea, so I don't have an argument to make here, but if your best examples for your argument that Achaea thrives on more ranged combat than Lusternia is limited to the above... then let's just say there's very little to convince anyone of anything.
If anything - it's proving Celina's point, that in Achaea, despite the huge lack of ranged abilities, it is such an important part of their combat, so presumably to get into combat you have to buy an artifact that affords you ranged combat ability, whereas in Lusternia, there is no such artifact... and no such need.
That said, I have no horse in this whole artifact cost argument, so I won't stop you from sabotaging your own agenda. Major logical fallacies just make me want to comment, is all.
I was vocal about removing +bal/+eq from the races because it made classes hard to balance. Shifting these bonuses to a tiered and capped system will no longer make certain races the be-all and end-all choices for combat... but still creates situations where an envoy discussion cannot settle on whether an ability (or a combination of abilities) will be balanced or not because of the potential for speeding its balance/equilibrium speeds.
Balance and equilibrium in all IRE combat has always been a very sensitive limit to balance out the potency of an ability, and cases where variations are available can blur the lines and make things exceedingly difficult to see objectively. Any discussion on an ability HAS to take into account how fast it can be performed, and while +bal/+eq has been in every IRE game, always, they have also always been a source of frustration when tweaking abilities. Today, with the overhaul, we are given the chance to be the first, and possibly the only IRE game to remove +bal/+eq variances from the entire combat scene, and therefore be in the unique position where admin and players and envoys alike can all view and weigh abilities based on their stated bal/eq time, and remove all those speculative, "if you get this five minute buff and that three hour buff, you can become overpowered" discussions from the table.
I would like to express my serious reservations about re-introducing these +bal/+eq variances into the game, tiered and capped, or otherwise. Please reconsider.
Couldn't agree more.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I'm not really sorry, for me that's often what it is about.
It's really frustrating to hear people argue that things are fine because some people can afford them, that's just really crappy reasoning. I've dropped a lot of money into this game and did buy the cameo because it was nice and worth it when I bought it. It's now not quite as nice, It's unlikely that I'd ever really use it again unless I switch into human for an xp bonus to get to demigod and then switch back, as opposed to previously where I would switch regularly based on what I felt like doing on the day.
But the price is fine because someone will still pay for it?
For another comparison...
Multiclassing in Midkemia costs 75 lessons and takes an hour. The artifacts speed this up and remove the lesson cost, orbs cost 250/500/1000. This should also save your stats for each class from memory.
In imperian it appears to be free, just takes time learning from a tutor. no apparent artifacts to influence it.
Aetolia has long cooldowns to limit it, 10 minutes need to pass since your last aggressive action, and you can only do it once every 12 hours but you can spend thirty lessons to reset it (plus ten for each additional reset in a weave). The artifacts that seem to interact with this are a 1000 credit version of the cameo that lets you change race once a month as well as whenever you change class, and a lesser version that just lets you change your statpack when you change class.
Compare that to the diadem or even the basic classflexing functionality?
Well you should be, that you would try to use your disposal income to score points and imply other players are attempting to disrespect and demean you for your income is really unacceptable. I edited myself the first time because I do not only empathize, but identify with that situation, and remember how it feels to be unable to "keep up" for many, many years. You cross a line when you start using it as a weapon to criticize other players, players who have never implied anything about how you "should" be able to do anything, however. This is a luxury item, and everyone is keenly aware of that, but so is every other artifact in the game. It's a game, by definition everything is a luxury item. If you can, you can and if you can't, you can't, but that's as far as any implied disrespect goes. Period.
People are cognizant of the fact that IRE has to make money, and also are aware that IRE probably has the most information available to set their own price points correctly to balance game mechanics with availability. Ever heard the phrase, it's not personal, it's business? Don't make it personal.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edit: Saran Absolutely no one said any of that, or anything close to it and it's pretty uncool that you just took it there. Not cool at all.
For the record, just to dispel the magical illusion of Achaea's pricing:
Sash of Caymus: 2500 credits (+3 intelligence)
Logosian Ring: 2000 credits (increases health sip by 30%)
Lupine Bow 22% faster 1000 credits
Shooting Addon +500 credits
Soulpiercer 63 180 246 1600 credits (you need two of these)
Now hold on there horsey. Achaea has a very different system in terms of PK, and we really cant compare the two. For example, you mentioned stats, the reason this is so expensive is because, unlike lusternia, stats cannot be gained so easily and by so many skills. I think I can only recall maybe 2 or 3 skills in Achaea that actually enhance stats. Additionally, another example is the illusion artifact (to cast one), as well as anti-illusion, which are so expensive because of how much a big deal illusions are in Achaean combat, which is because, unlike Lusternia, anti-illusion is not found so easily, thus able to be expanded upon. Additionally, Achaea thrives on ranged combat tactics, such as Bows for LoS and meteors/lava spouts/etc. for in-Area targeting, of which Lusternia has near none of except Zap (which we can all agree is pretty lol).
I have been a member of Achaea for near 8 years, and yes I can agree that buying the big arties does really boost you, but Achaea's main focus has always been: Combat. It has never been an environment that cared much for RP or Questlines, so it only makes sense that the admin would put all focus and resource gain on combat enhancement, which should really not be such a focus in lusternia.
Errr, illusions are all but defunct in Achaea due to serverside curing. Aside from that, yeah that's kind of my point. It's really effing expensive, regardless of the artifact implications. The point is this illusion of "other IREs," is just distracting nonsense.
The only good thing about it being related to skills and buffs is that those classes in general will always have them, but in general, I'm against the +eq/+bal stuff too.
@Saran - I can't afford to buy credits either, not even in a 'if I save up for a few weeks' situation either. I'm not bad off, but I have wife, kid and another on the way, in addition to a house etc. My money needs to go elsewhere, and you can bet I'm not spending a dime on any of these new artifacts. I also don't have nearly the same amount of time that I had when I first started playing, a couple hours a night (compared to the days when I was able to play at work, and was single etc).
80% of what I have came from what I earned in game, and the only lvl 3 runes I ever had were lvl 3 wounders when I was EG. I don't have a wonderwand, the genies I'm using I'm borrowing from @Ardmore until he decides he wants them back. Most auction things I've purchased required me to trade in other artifacts I've bought to buy.
Yeah, the artifacts would be great if they were cheaper, but I think it's worth 1k for the racial perk. I plan on getting it as soon as I can, but the key point is that you don't need to spend a dime to get these if you don't want to.
I do think those people that spend more time (or more money) should be doing better, but as @Celina pointed out, you don't need to be a pile of artifacts to be successful. She's not the only person to have a modicum of success doing it. There's several other people that have spent very little and are successful and there are several people who have spent a lot and are not successful. I think the issue is that people think if they learn the skills and get the arties, they're going to be successful, which is just not true
Very much agree with Lerad. Putting +eq/bal into the game is just stupid after taking pains to eliminate it. Not trying to be directly insulting, but why undo all the work of trying to remove that as a balance concern, then reintroduce it? Unless, of course, a new +bal/+eq arti is in the offing. That would be a terrible idea. Make strength universal buff, dex universal resist, int universal buff or mix it to be half effect buff and resist.
I don't think finks and gnomes should be made free. They're definitely not races I'd want novices to pick, as they have really niche demipowers, and require you to learn a skillset you normally don't have to know anything about.
Additionally, another example is the illusion artifact (to cast one), as well as anti-illusion, which are so expensive because of how much a big deal illusions are in Achaean combat, which is because, unlike Lusternia, anti-illusion is not found so easily, thus able to be expanded upon. Additionally, Achaea thrives on ranged combat tactics, such as Bows for LoS and meteors/lava spouts/etc. for in-Area targeting, of which Lusternia has near none of except Zap (which we can all agree is pretty lol).
...
By the way, every mage and druid class in Lusternia has a LoS attack, and some non-mage/druid classes also have versions of it. Tarot (and meteor) is also far more available in Lusternia (every single city bard and guardian class) than in Achaea. Lusternia's zap is something that is literally (potentially) available to every demigod and above, and which achaea doesn't have an equivalent of (unless all dragons have an area attack).
Edit: I forgot that Lusternian Tarot doesn't have a meteor attack, and the one that's available in Lusternia is Astro meteor, which is not really an area attack. But well, I'm pretty sure we have Achaea beat on the LoS front, at least.
I don't PK in Achaea, so I don't have an argument to make here, but if your best examples for your argument that Achaea thrives on more ranged combat than Lusternia is limited to the above... then let's just say there's very little to convince anyone of anything.
If anything - it's proving Celina's point, that in Achaea, despite the huge lack of ranged abilities, it is such an important part of their combat, so presumably to get into combat you have to buy an artifact that affords you ranged combat ability, whereas in Lusternia, there is no such artifact... and no such need.
That said, I have no horse in this whole artifact cost argument, so I won't stop you from sabotaging your own agenda. Major logical fallacies just make me want to comment, is all.
Every and any Individual in Achaea can purchase an Artifact bow which they can use to Fire in-area meteor attacks at a target, so in reply to your point that Achaea has a us beat on this is incorrect, and in fact Achaea is everything -but- lacking in Ranged capabilities.
Additionally, as for Mages and Druids, their ranged attacks can be stopped by a shield, with no way to remove said shield (unless the poor sap is standing in your meld and you have phantomspheres around him ready to break the shield).
As for Lusternia's ranged capability, it has always been a point in Lusternia design to try and move combat away from the idea of "ranged vs ranged", and to try and make it more direct. I recall when I first came to Lusternia and was inquiring over ranged capabilities, that I was informed by several people including a higher up that Lusternia doesnt really have ranged combat, unless you count Meld (which as you can see through time has become limited in size as well as effect based on mage's location).
So yes, this all returns back to my original point that combat in Achaea as well as its necessities cannot be placed on the scale with Lusternia. It is two -very- different systems of war.
(Also good you fixed that meteor mistake, or else that fallacy comment would have come and bit you in the ass).
Edit: Also as a remark, Zap and other ranged capabilities have through the ages had their damage reduced. Ranged combat just isnt a thing wanted here, and I personally do not mind.
@Baelor Does the amount of ego you have have any effect on how well you influence? Cause if you turn all the +Charisma bonuses into ego boosts, it seems like it will slow down influencing a lot.
Concerning the eq/bal thing: working as stated, astrology now has the potential to increase timers for enemies by at most nine percent(assuming 3% per buff level?). Which is, y'know, kind of a lot. Not that astrology doesn't need work, but that kiiinda seems overkill and a tremendous pain to balance around.
I was vocal about removing +bal/+eq from the races because it made classes hard to balance. Shifting these bonuses to a tiered and capped system will no longer make certain races the be-all and end-all choices for combat... but still creates situations where an envoy discussion cannot settle on whether an ability (or a combination of abilities) will be balanced or not because of the potential for speeding its balance/equilibrium speeds.
Balance and equilibrium in all IRE combat has always been a very sensitive limit to balance out the potency of an ability, and cases where variations are available can blur the lines and make things exceedingly difficult to see objectively. Any discussion on an ability HAS to take into account how fast it can be performed, and while +bal/+eq has been in every IRE game, always, they have also always been a source of frustration when tweaking abilities. Today, with the overhaul, we are given the chance to be the first, and possibly the only IRE game to remove +bal/+eq variances from the entire combat scene, and therefore be in the unique position where admin and players and envoys alike can all view and weigh abilities based on their stated bal/eq time, and remove all those speculative, "if you get this five minute buff and that three hour buff, you can become overpowered" discussions from the table.
I would like to express my serious reservations about re-introducing these +bal/+eq variances into the game, tiered and capped, or otherwise. Please reconsider.
I have to agree with @Lerad here in that reintroducing bal/eq bonuses and maluses feels like a step back from the standardization this Overhaul is setting the game to. Skill balance becomes all the more tricky, actually, when speed bonuses/maluses before were only limited to certain races, and now become more available with access to certain skills. Races (pre-OH) who had speed bonuses always had a defensive malus associated with it - now this quasi-balancing effect won't exist as racial maluses are now gone, and it's very much possible to get a +INT buff or so without any attached negative effect.
+1 to the reconsideration request, @Baelor. I'd be more in favour of keeping +CON to be +health, +CHA to be +ego, and +STR to be +damage and just switch up +INT to be +mana, and altogether delete +DEX (or change to tie to +parry/stance effectiveness, or +celerity, or something) if these buffs have to continue to exist.
The only good thing about it being related to skills and buffs is that those classes in general will always have them, but in general, I'm against the +eq/+bal stuff too.
@Saran - I can't afford to buy credits either, not even in a 'if I save up for a few weeks' situation either. I'm not bad off, but I have wife, kid and another on the way, in addition to a house etc. My money needs to go elsewhere, and you can bet I'm not spending a dime on any of these new artifacts. I also don't have nearly the same amount of time that I had when I first started playing, a couple hours a night (compared to the days when I was able to play at work, and was single etc).
80% of what I have came from what I earned in game, and the only lvl 3 runes I ever had were lvl 3 wounders when I was EG. I don't have a wonderwand, the genies I'm using I'm borrowing from @Ardmore until he decides he wants them back. Most auction things I've purchased required me to trade in other artifacts I've bought to buy.
Yeah, the artifacts would be great if they were cheaper, but I think it's worth 1k for the racial perk. I plan on getting it as soon as I can, but the key point is that you don't need to spend a dime to get these if you don't want to.
I do think those people that spend more time (or more money) should be doing better, but as @Celina pointed out, you don't need to be a pile of artifacts to be successful. She's not the only person to have a modicum of success doing it. There's several other people that have spent very little and are successful and there are several people who have spent a lot and are not successful. I think the issue is that people think if they learn the skills and get the arties, they're going to be successful, which is just not true
My primary issue with all of this is that players feel that they have some right to counter other players complaints about pricing of artifacts with nothing more than "some people will pay that much for it", if that is the only argument then the counter is "some people cannot pay that much for it".
I really don't have the mental energy to do more than scan the posts right now, however there doesn't seem to really be any actual counter stances to "cameos/pendants/shrooms are too much for what they will now offer" other than the aforementioned "some people will pay that much for it."
There appear to be feelings from others as well that suddenly these purchases (excluding the pendant of course) don't have the value that they previously held. Personally, I wouldn't have a cameo if this new system was the way things had always functioned. The pendant meanwhile has complaints that it's effectively a paygate, locking away the powerful perks and likely being well overpriced for the underwhelming ones.
Talk about how necessary the pendant paygate is for the abilities it offers, discuss how the cameo will maintain its usefulness with the changes, talk about why gnomes and finks are worth the cost.
"Some people will pay that much for it" is not doing that.
Gnomes and finks have their specialized niches. They are the, racially, masters of space. I can'twait for the fink changes, especially, because it's going to severely up the speed that the hunts Glom has been running generate xp. Gnomes I can't speak for don't own it, but I accept that finks will rock in space. Srsly, Nikka, come2glom xD
As for cameo, I think it maintains its use fine. Instead of going for a more tanky race, or harder hitting, that's tied to class. I suck at chasing, so I can see using aslaran quite a bit. Igasho will be awesome for splitting groups. Lobo when I want to influence and hunt. Furrikin when I don't want to be acrobatics. Taedae for what I think is going to be some startling awesome synergy with monks and possibly some warriors.
I'll be swapping around a ton, post overhaul, just like I did pre overhaul. The only difference will be what I swap to and from.
My primary issue with all of this is that players feel that they have some right to counter other players complaints about pricing of artifacts with nothing more than "some people will pay that much for it", if that is the only argument then the counter is "some people cannot pay that much for it".
I really don't have the mental energy to do more than scan the posts right now, however there doesn't seem to really be any actual counter stances to "cameos/pendants/shrooms are too much for what they will now offer" other than the aforementioned "some people will pay that much for it."
There appear to be feelings from others as well that suddenly these purchases (excluding the pendant of course) don't have the value that they previously held. Personally, I wouldn't have a cameo if this new system was the way things had always functioned. The pendant meanwhile has complaints that it's effectively a paygate, locking away the powerful perks and likely being well overpriced for the underwhelming ones.
Talk about how necessary the pendant paygate is for the abilities it offers, discuss how the cameo will maintain its usefulness with the changes, talk about why gnomes and finks are worth the cost.
"Some people will pay that much for it" is not doing that.
The cameo didn't lose any effectiveness from what it had. The only difference now is that instead of stats, you're just switching out perks. The only argument against the continued cost would be that races aren't really as big a factor in things as they previously were and you'd be right, but that's also the intention of racial overhaul. Now more people can play the races they want vs the ones they need to play to be competitive. You can still switch between races to get certain bonuses, or access to certain skills. Some will be better for hunting, others for influencing, thus the cameo keeps it's value.
The pendant on the other hand gives you access to more powerful version of the perks you can get without it. The majority of the active skills are incredibly situational and the passive ones aren't as strong (with the exception of lucidian maybe). I think the abilities justify the price tag, and I'm willing to pay 1k credits for it.
It boils down to this. If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it. If they don't get enough people buying them, they'll probably drop the price. I don't see that happening though.
The only good thing about it being related to skills and buffs is that those classes in general will always have them, but in general, I'm against the +eq/+bal stuff too.
@Saran - I can't afford to buy credits either, not even in a 'if I save up for a few weeks' situation either. I'm not bad off, but I have wife, kid and another on the way, in addition to a house etc. My money needs to go elsewhere, and you can bet I'm not spending a dime on any of these new artifacts. I also don't have nearly the same amount of time that I had when I first started playing, a couple hours a night (compared to the days when I was able to play at work, and was single etc).
80% of what I have came from what I earned in game, and the only lvl 3 runes I ever had were lvl 3 wounders when I was EG. I don't have a wonderwand, the genies I'm using I'm borrowing from @Ardmore until he decides he wants them back. Most auction things I've purchased required me to trade in other artifacts I've bought to buy.
Yeah, the artifacts would be great if they were cheaper, but I think it's worth 1k for the racial perk. I plan on getting it as soon as I can, but the key point is that you don't need to spend a dime to get these if you don't want to.
I do think those people that spend more time (or more money) should be doing better, but as @Celina pointed out, you don't need to be a pile of artifacts to be successful. She's not the only person to have a modicum of success doing it. There's several other people that have spent very little and are successful and there are several people who have spent a lot and are not successful. I think the issue is that people think if they learn the skills and get the arties, they're going to be successful, which is just not true
My primary issue with all of this is that players feel that they have some right to counter other players complaints about pricing of artifacts with nothing more than "some people will pay that much for it", if that is the only argument then the counter is "some people cannot pay that much for it".
I really don't have the mental energy to do more than scan the posts right now, however there doesn't seem to really be any actual counter stances to "cameos/pendants/shrooms are too much for what they will now offer" other than the aforementioned "some people will pay that much for it."
There appear to be feelings from others as well that suddenly these purchases (excluding the pendant of course) don't have the value that they previously held. Personally, I wouldn't have a cameo if this new system was the way things had always functioned. The pendant meanwhile has complaints that it's effectively a paygate, locking away the powerful perks and likely being well overpriced for the underwhelming ones.
Talk about how necessary the pendant paygate is for the abilities it offers, discuss how the cameo will maintain its usefulness with the changes, talk about why gnomes and finks are worth the cost.
"Some people will pay that much for it" is not doing that.
It's not necessary for players to justify the cost the admin place on an artifact ever. It's not even the admin's responisbility to justify the price. In what other business do you walk in to, state you can't afford an item, and demand the management explain the pricing to you? No, you either buy it or you don't. "People will pay for it," is all the justification any business will ever need to set a price on an item. Hell, it's Apple's entire freaking pricing model. In fact, as a counter point to all of the "if it's cheaper they'll make more money," conjecture, Apple is an example of a model that makes more through pricing for exclusivity.
Ultimatley it is as Sidd said, it's on the consumer to justify whether the price is worth it or not for themselves.
The only thing they are really responsible for is justifying why they won't return the cost of an item should that item change, but even then that is covered by the up front disclosure that these things are all subject to change without notice. The admin tend to be very good at refunding defunct artifacts for full value, as they have done very recently, when necessary.
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EDIT: It's even worse that you just literally shamed Saran for saying it.
As i said, setting them high and getting a few people to purchase them is one way. Setting them lower is another getting more people to purchase them, this is how microtransactions work. People spend heaps of money on phone games, not because they ask for twenty dollars up front but because they ask you for small amounts over a longer period of time.
Yes, the audiences are different numbers, but it would be interesting at least to see how many people would buy artifacts if they were cheaper. I think it was the figurine rune that I grabbed when it dropped in price.
The race overhaul was supposed to do the opposite of making me feel like my race is a bad choice. I now want to reincarnate into viscanti.
EDIT: I see stacks of people excited that they can sell their hats and be the race they rp as...and I am about to ask for a fink race hat...sigh.
Now hold on there horsey. Achaea has a very different system in terms of PK, and we really cant compare the two. For example, you mentioned stats, the reason this is so expensive is because, unlike lusternia, stats cannot be gained so easily and by so many skills. I think I can only recall maybe 2 or 3 skills in Achaea that actually enhance stats. Additionally, another example is the illusion artifact (to cast one), as well as anti-illusion, which are so expensive because of how much a big deal illusions are in Achaean combat, which is because, unlike Lusternia, anti-illusion is not found so easily, thus able to be expanded upon. Additionally, Achaea thrives on ranged combat tactics, such as Bows for LoS and meteors/lava spouts/etc. for in-Area targeting, of which Lusternia has near none of except Zap (which we can all agree is pretty lol).
I have been a member of Achaea for near 8 years, and yes I can agree that buying the big arties does really boost you, but Achaea's main focus has always been: Combat. It has never been an environment that cared much for RP or Questlines, so it only makes sense that the admin would put all focus and resource gain on combat enhancement, which should really not be such a focus in lusternia.
Again, I will say, I think Gnome and Fink at this point should be made free races, unless they actually get some interesting perks as per 500 creds.
We're currently in the process of looking at all skills and blessings that previously gave stats, and converting them to the new system. There's some polishing to do on a couple of sources, but overall it's balanced out.
We're still doing away with the +1 to all stats at Titan, and looking at a new line of H/M/E related endowments to replace the current ones. No further word on how we're implementing that yet. Argleblasters are already converted to the new system and the stat bonuses that was given to Illithoid and Kephera for their respective empowered avatars has been converted to the new perk system.
So here's how it works:
Stats that gave + to Con and Cha will give bonuses to health and ego respectively, dexterity will increase balance speed and intellect equilibrium and strength buffs now give universal damage boosts. These work on the same /10 system as everything else.
Adjusting balance and eq are delicate subjects, these are being looked over and making sure any gains aren't a repeat of the A/MMR scenarios. If you take aside the aforementioned sources that are still being looked over, players will cap at 5/8 (including use of domoth blessings) to balance and 5/5 to equilibrium, which cannot be maintained on a permanent basis. We'll still be looking at this to see how it affects game play and combat balance.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
But at least drop their price to 250 credits.
Every and any Individual in Achaea can purchase an Artifact bow which they can use to Fire in-area meteor attacks at a target, so in reply to your point that Achaea has a us beat on this is incorrect, and in fact Achaea is everything -but- lacking in Ranged capabilities.
Additionally, as for Mages and Druids, their ranged attacks can be stopped by a shield, with no way to remove said shield (unless the poor sap is standing in your meld and you have phantomspheres around him ready to break the shield).
As for Lusternia's ranged capability, it has always been a point in Lusternia design to try and move combat away from the idea of "ranged vs ranged", and to try and make it more direct. I recall when I first came to Lusternia and was inquiring over ranged capabilities, that I was informed by several people including a higher up that Lusternia doesnt really have ranged combat, unless you count Meld (which as you can see through time has become limited in size as well as effect based on mage's location).
So yes, this all returns back to my original point that combat in Achaea as well as its necessities cannot be placed on the scale with Lusternia. It is two -very- different systems of war.
(Also good you fixed that meteor mistake, or else that fallacy comment would have come and bit you in the ass).
Edit: Also as a remark, Zap and other ranged capabilities have through the ages had their damage reduced. Ranged combat just isnt a thing wanted here, and I personally do not mind.
My primary issue with all of this is that players feel that they have some right to counter other players complaints about pricing of artifacts with nothing more than "some people will pay that much for it", if that is the only argument then the counter is "some people cannot pay that much for it".
I really don't have the mental energy to do more than scan the posts right now, however there doesn't seem to really be any actual counter stances to "cameos/pendants/shrooms are too much for what they will now offer" other than the aforementioned "some people will pay that much for it."
There appear to be feelings from others as well that suddenly these purchases (excluding the pendant of course) don't have the value that they previously held. Personally, I wouldn't have a cameo if this new system was the way things had always functioned. The pendant meanwhile has complaints that it's effectively a paygate, locking away the powerful perks and likely being well overpriced for the underwhelming ones.
Talk about how necessary the pendant paygate is for the abilities it offers, discuss how the cameo will maintain its usefulness with the changes, talk about why gnomes and finks are worth the cost.
"Some people will pay that much for it" is not doing that.
As for cameo, I think it maintains its use fine. Instead of going for a more tanky race, or harder hitting, that's tied to class. I suck at chasing, so I can see using aslaran quite a bit. Igasho will be awesome for splitting groups. Lobo when I want to influence and hunt. Furrikin when I don't want to be acrobatics. Taedae for what I think is going to be some startling awesome synergy with monks and possibly some warriors.
I'll be swapping around a ton, post overhaul, just like I did pre overhaul. The only difference will be what I swap to and from.
The only thing they are really responsible for is justifying why they won't return the cost of an item should that item change, but even then that is covered by the up front disclosure that these things are all subject to change without notice. The admin tend to be very good at refunding defunct artifacts for full value, as they have done very recently, when necessary.