@Baelor I don't think I ever got an answer about whether racial cold or fire resistance will continue to reduce the effect of cold or hot weather on movement speed. It was a small but nifty thing that I really enjoy.
Hi, I realize I'm a little late to the party but I have a small concern I thought I'd bring up since I may or may not be the only living Igasho in all of Lusternia.
I'm a lvl 85 Igasho Warrior (baldemaster spec) who started Lusternia over 5 years ago but took a long break and recently returned. Sometimes I feel like the only non-demigod in Lusternia (alts excepted). Haha! ;;)
When I chose to be Igasho I did so because of their massive strength (17), size (18), and constitution (18) stats, as well as their many resilient advantages along with their mastery over blades. Their kit seemed truly ideal for warriors and I invested fully in the race, blademaster spec, several artifacts for the spec, and even the herb trade.
When this system is implemented (this seems to have a lot of support) Igasho will lose their strength, size, and constitution advantage as all will be equal. Ok fair enough, everyone will be equal. I won't have the ability to take advantage of my large health pool and strength to fight strong monsters by myself anymore (which as a non-demigod actually might drastically impact my ability to hunt and gain circles, but again I understand the concept behind leveling the playing field and this is something I accept is likely for the best in terms of game balance).
However something that concerns me a bit more is the change to racial advantages. Once these changes take place Igasho will:
Lose lvl 2 resistance to cutting damage
Lose lvl 2 resistance to blunt damage
Lose lvl 2 resistance to magic damage
Lose lvl 1 resistance to poison damgae
Lose lvl 1 regenerate health
Lose lvl 1 faster herb balance
No change: cold resistance/warmth stat?, scale ability, blademaster spec
Gain lvl 2 resistance to cold damage
Gain a demigod ability "Carry"
No longer susceptible to fire (lvl 1)
No longer have slower balance/equilibrium
:-S :-S :-S
I realize apparently no one likes Igasho because I don't recall ever meeting another Igasho in my time in Lusternia. Maybe the balance/equilibrium penalty is a deal-breaker? So maybe there won't be much sympathy for my plight but I find myself completely invested in this kit and spec. If I lose all my health and strength advantage relative to other races, and lose all my resistances to such variety of physical, magical, and poison damage, I may literally need to switch races or be completely incapable of efficient hunting. I don't even remember the last time I suffered cold damage (I hunt Undervault: adoraths (2 at a time with ease), bone sharks (2 at a time with ease), mantas, or group hunt, or aetherhunt and occasionally astral, but seriously cutting/blunt/magic/poison seem a whole lot more common than cold damage...whether bashing or pvp...) However if I did so I'd lose my blademastery advantage, and since Cavalier and other warrior specs seem so much stronger and more popular, without an edge in blademastery I'd likely need to switch specs as well to avoid being literally the worst race/spec imaginable. However, I'm locked into my weapons with multiple artifacts, and switching specs requires a serious loss of lessons anyway, correct? In other words, just to save myself from being the most disadvantaged warrior out there, I'd have to invest serious time and a real pile of credits just to avoid serious disadvantages for my race and spec. This really worries me. (
A lot of people say you can become good at any race/spec if you do your best but this argument is a bit patronizing. I'm sure I could still be competitive with enough time and effort but if I wasn't disadvantaged to start, the same time/effort would have taken me even farther. It's like saying you can still win a golf game even if you start off down three strokes, but you're much more likely to succeed/win the game if you don't start off down three strokes to begin with. In this way it's always best to identify races/specs that are the most synergistic and efficient and then devote your time/effort with the best starting advantage you can find. That's what I thought I was doing 5 years ago when I started my warrior route with Igasho and chose the blademastery spec. This is actually an excellent argument right now FOR going to the no-stat race system, because then you really are equal regardless of the race you pick. However the racial advantages will be unique to each race, and in this particular example I see absolutely no utility in Igasho, which predestined my blademaster spec in the first place. Maybe the Carry ability at demigod will be really strong? But in my non-demigod state it won't even apply to me for months or even years (I've tried really really hard to gain experience in all my spare time and have barely raised one circle in the last month--it only gets slower the higher you go right?). And other races seem to have similar or even more powerful demigod abilities for a warrior. Again, I feel like other races will have more synergistic and efficient racial advantages independent of base stats in terms of warriors. And this is seriously challenging the viability of my current race/spec choice. :-?
A lot of people I've spoken with have recommended I just influence for experience and levels, and I have done so (thanks to the amazing no-brainer lesson packages, thanks be to the Gods!), because it's a lot less risky than hunting powerful monsters and supposedly faster/better for gaining experience. However--the whole point of being Igasho and a warrior with all my credits/time investment there was to hunt by fighting with weapons and not sitting still in a room influencing guards by the dozen until I fall asleep from boredom. Yes I influence but it isn't very fun to me. It's more of a chore. And it's hard to consider being forced that direction permanently in the near future...
I know there are alternatives to doing things the warrior way but let's not get too sidetracked from the issue at hand: Igasho as a race. With all the changes coming to stats and racial advantages I can't make a single argument for remaining Igasho. Shouldn't there be a good reason? If you want to be a warrior other races seem to have stronger advantages. If you want to influence or wield magic or anything else other races seem to have distinct advantages. Igasho come across as not only "meh" but disadvantaged compared to other racial abilities in terms of whole-package utility as a warrior.
So here we are and I'm asking all of you more experienced and wise Lusternians to consider the changes to the poor Igasho and perhaps suggest a change that will actually encourage me or others to choose the Igasho race. Am I completely off base and out of touch here? Am I really worried about changes that will ultimately not make much of a difference? I fully admit my ignorance and inexperience. Maybe this is much ado about nothing. But in my estimation these changes are severe and will have a direct, negative impact both on efficiency and potentially even my ability to hunt. All in all I'm just hoping to spark some thought, investigation, and conversation about the Igasho race that might help to balance them on par with other warrior races that are more played and more popular in Lusternia.
I'd have assumed an igasho would actually be quite excited to see a no-stat change to the race. I've personally known 1 igasho in all my time playing. Granted, you will lose on some strength and some health but in the long run chances are you'll see more igasho running around when they're not pigeonholed to only one class (i.e. warrior) and are not very good at that to begin with. The level 1 balance/equilibrium malus is a dealbreaker, especially considering that everyone believes a warrior is either an aslaran or nothing at all (Due to the level 2 balance bonus)
The fact that the playing field will be leveled also doesn't mean that you will become weaker or less of a walking tank. The boosts will come from your class rather than your race, though, specifically as a warrior you should see an increase to your health pool over every other class. You might lose on some damage, but things will hopefully be scaled to where not much will change in regards to rate of killing things and so on. In general, I expect you'll probably be killing faster rather than slower due to the fact you'll have better speed once you lose the balance malus, and warrior bashing... at least as much as I've tested of it... has always been more about hitting more often to get more crits rather than slow, strong attacks. As an example, even though I never learned bonecrusher or blademaster on my warrior, I've noticed that using hammers/rapiers (depending on what the target is weak to) tends to speed up my bashing as a warrior rather than slowing it down despite the increased chance to miss simply because critical strikes show up more often the more you attack.
In the end, igasho will also be more viable for PvP due to the fact that they'll also lose the malus of having 9 intellect which is a pretty big killer considering the amount of mana-based kills out there and kills that rely on forcing you to sip something other than health. All in all, I feel that the loss of some low-level resistances is heavily offset by the fact that you'll also be gaining some attack speed and as a warrior will also still be at the top of the food chain when it comes to your health pool.
EDIT: TL;DR - I'd stick it out as an igasho BM and see what your bashing looks like after the overhaul. If you feel that it's bad THEN, I'm pretty sure the sweeping racial changes will definitely get each of us a free reincarnation.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Igasho will lose a bunch of advantages they had, though I think you may not be counting the strenghts that other races lost. For example, as a Warrior, higher Int races could make up for the lost Con with Surge, and are less likely to hit the diminishing returns of super high Str. Balance/Eq bonuses and maluses are also a huge deal (the main reason Igasho wasn't played).
In the new system, before Demigod, the main advantage of Igasho will be in the Blademaster bonus. If you want to remain as a BM, then Igasho will probably be a good choice. At demi, Carry could have potential as a combat ability, though not for hunting. If you're thinking of changing Warrior specs, keep in mind that Warriors will be getting large changes, so you may want to wait.
I'd have assumed an igasho would actually be quite excited to see a no-stat change to the race. I've personally known 1 igasho in all my time playing. Granted, you will lose on some strength and some health but in the long run chances are you'll see more igasho running around when they're not pigeonholed to only one class (i.e. warrior) and are not very good at that to begin with. The level 1 balance/equilibrium malus is a dealbreaker, especially considering that everyone believes a warrior is either an aslaran or nothing at all (Due to the level 2 balance bonus)
The fact that the playing field will be leveled also doesn't mean that you will become weaker or less of a walking tank. The boosts will come from your class rather than your race, though, specifically as a warrior you should see an increase to your health pool over every other class. You might lose on some damage, but things will hopefully be scaled to where not much will change in regards to rate of killing things and so on. In general, I expect you'll probably be killing faster rather than slower due to the fact you'll have better speed once you lose the balance malus, and warrior bashing... at least as much as I've tested of it... has always been more about hitting more often to get more crits rather than slow, strong attacks. As an example, even though I never learned bonecrusher or blademaster on my warrior, I've noticed that using hammers/rapiers (depending on what the target is weak to) tends to speed up my bashing as a warrior rather than slowing it down despite the increased chance to miss simply because critical strikes show up more often the more you attack.
In the end, igasho will also be more viable for PvP due to the fact that they'll also lose the malus of having 9 intellect which is a pretty big killer considering the amount of mana-based kills out there and kills that rely on forcing you to sip something other than health. All in all, I feel that the loss of some low-level resistances is heavily offset by the fact that you'll also be gaining some attack speed and as a warrior will also still be at the top of the food chain when it comes to your health pool.
This does reassure me, so basically you're saying balance is better than all those resistances/str/constitution? Fair enough. Then I guess I just chose poorly all those years ago and will be better off after these changes go down.
However, you pointed out a lot of reasons why maybe Igasho would be better than they were because they'll no longer have a mana stat penalty, or a balance penalty. Ok, so all things being equal for health/mana/balance in terms of a warriors when these changes take effect, what would make you choose to be Igasho over other warrior races?
For instance, Igasho will have 2/4 cold resistance, can scale, and will be blademasters, with a demigod Carry ability (is that supposed to be a great demi ability?). But Loboshigaru will have 2/4 cold dmg resist, 2/4 fire dmg resist, enhanced empower and paranoia ego attacks (which are the 2 most common/helpful that I've seen: guards, and illithoid prison), AND 8/10 health regen and 2/10 mana and ego regen. That seems much, much more useful for a warrior while still allowing you to be a much more powerful influencer when you want to take a break from bashing. Krokani have similar resistance advantages over Igasho (2/4 blunt, 2/4 magic), bonecrusher spec bonus, with Free Glance/Observe utility and reduced blackout with double immunity!
I could go on and on but it seems like just about any other race is either more resistant, has more utility, or has much more powerful racial abilities than Igasho. With stats being equal, Igasho maybe aren't in the hole anymore, according to what you said. But why be Igasho? Is there a compelling reason/advantage? I just don't see one.
I feel like every race should have a compelling advantage in some meaningful way.
Indeed, the current redesign of the races will enable certain ones like Igasho to be great in specific situations and not others. As a Blademaster, the Igasho weapon spec will always be of use to you, but the demi-level perk is very much a benefit more tailored to combat situations only. In terms of group separators, Igasho Carry is already being estimated as one of the new gamechangers of the system.
If, however, you're more of a hunter than a combatant, then indeed other races may be more desirable for their demi-level perk. It all depends entirely on the situation you find yourself in, and what sort of trait you'd like to tailor yourself to excelling towards.
Edit: Mind, by no means does this mean that the races haven't been balanced with an eye to make them viable - this is actually the opposite case. All races have been pleasantly equalized to remove all maluses (balance/eq maluses and weakness maluses being big things that deterred other players from choosing specific races before), so it's anticipated that we'd see more of a variance in race selection now that none of them are cripplingly weak.
Most people don't play igasho specifically because of the slow/balance equilibrium. Those, and the low int offset their high strength, health and decent resistances. I think you are not realising how nasty the igasho weaknesses actually are.
So yes, you are losing a lot of good stuff, but, you're also losing some nasty weaknesses. In the new system, there are no weaknesses, so races like igasho can't have as many....really, really good advantages.
Let me compare a bit with fink. We also have high health (not as high as igasho) and a really high stat (dex), along with really low int. And...honestly, the low in is horrible horrible horrible in combat. Horrible. So getting reasonable mana is a good thing.
However, I understand your concerns about losing a significant amount of damage, and probably health. I'm going to have to do that too, and I hate it, and I complained about it. And...well, you may have seen the tae'dae complaints, which are in a similar vein to yours. You do get a boost to sword damage however, so, (if I'm getting this right) you'll still do more damage with a sword than any other race (in a vaccum).
The problem is, you only get four special powers now. With one of them Blademaster, one scaling, and the new carry, that means...only one resistance. They could have given 1/4 cold and 1/4 something else instead, maybe would have been better?
You're yeti. That's the race idea. You get cold resist, mountain climbing, blademaster, warmth, and the ability to carry. So, it fits the race idea. You can go to Icewynd and probably cope pretty well with the cold, can scale to places and go hunting there better than any one else. I don't really know what to tell you, unless you want to make an argument for replacing carry with a bunch of resistances, or a health boost or something.
Illithoid prison should be weakening influencing, not paranoia
Regen's at the moment are pretty easily achievable meaning the demi+ bonus from regen isn't that great.
Remember that pre-overhaul races, each level of resistance was 7%, post overhaul, each point is 3%, meaning out of 1000 damage, you'll take 970, so you're putting a much greater weight on resistances than there is.
The biggest reason to be an Igasho? Because that's the race you want to play and RP. Which is the point of the overhaul, to make every race playable. Yes, Lobo's and other races will give you a bit more resistances (remember, only 30 out of 1000 damage resisted, per point of resistance) but in general, you'll do fine as any race you want. I think that's the key part most people are missing, is that races in general, are going to play a much much smaller mechanical role in the game.
Low to mid level resistances were overvalued in the previous system. Sip bonus levels and being able to kill what's hurting you faster outpowered them in the majority of cases. You shouldn't be significantly less tanky without them, once everything is properly sorted and migrated to the new system.
The compelling reason to be Igasho pre-demigod is that you like playing Igasho thematically. Most of the races don't get anything significant before the demigod tier.
Yes, Igasho's demigod power is really good, really very good. It'll be the only forced movement skill that ignores summon resist, ignores walls (only stopped by barrier?), and moves the user out of danger (back into their own group). It's like tackle plus, especially with the artifact tier unlock that causes it to stun. On the other hand, the Lobo demigod power (as it is now) is a very minor benefit, all told. An 8/10 bonus sounds hefty, until you realize that you're only going to benefit from at most half of that bonus, and easily only a quarter of it, with any regen granting skills. The Krokani demigod level skill is a similar deal: Free glance and observe isn't useful to anyone who can squint. The blackout business is strong (assuming they work it right), but is more situational and 1v1 oriented than the Igasho ability.
Just wanted to thank everyone for their comments, insights, and informed corrections to my ignorance
I was just hoping to stimulate some discussion about Igasho to make sure they were given a moment's notice, so mission accomplished!
Basically I was just concerned because of how unpopular Igasho are, and was worried that very few people would have a good grasp on the strenghts/weakenesses/playstyle of Igasho currently and compare that with how they will change in the future in order to ensure the changes are fair. Despite playing Igasho, I consider myself still inexperienced and NOT capable of determining whether the changes are fair or not. I just wanted to make enough noise so that you all would come to a conclusion about it
It sounds like you all do have a good grasp on the changes and are giving it a solid thumbs up. I'm a trusting person so I'll respond with a sincere "ok!"
A few people explained the drawbacks of the current Igasho, low intellect and maluses to your EQ/Balance makes them highly unpopular, and their current high strength isn't as advantageous as you'd think, considering the way diminishing returns works. If anything I consider the weapon races (bar Dwarf) among some of the biggest to benefit from this rewrite, alongside Viscanti, as the five most currently undesirable races.
Just a few things that weren't mentioned, you cited weapon runes as being a major reason to not switch from blademaster. All stat and wounding runes are being retired in this overhaul, they'll be able to be traded in at full price (as in what you paid for them) The only returners are the elemental damage and bleeding runes, so if you wanted to change spec, you may find it more viable to do so.
Health will be equal regardless of the race you choose, but being a Knight will give you access to buffs that means you'll have less trouble reaching 10/10 (though if you use surge to easily attain this, it will come at a cost to your mana.)
However I will point out the ignoring of resistances that people are mentioning regarding CARRY is locked behind an artifact, it does not stun (that would be the Aslaran bonus to pursuit) Yes it's a PvP orientated skill, some of the Tier 4 and 5 are, there are races you may find are more suited to hunting if you wish to choose those instead. Yes you'll lose your racial bonus to Blademastery, but you'll still be a capable Blademaster without it. Tier 1-3 perks using the new buff system simply make it easier for people to reach 10/10 in certain scenarios, it doesn't mean that you can't theoretically manage it without, but those ways may be more costly to you, the player.
All stat and wounding runes are being retired in this overhaul, they'll be able to be traded in at full price (as in what you paid for them) The only returners are the elemental damage and bleeding runes, so if you wanted to change spec, you may find it more viable to do so.
Thanks for the added input, @Baelor! Might I ask if there's been further developments on the suggestion about health/mana/ego endowments as demigod purchasable powers? Has a decision been made on those? Thanks!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
It's floated about with the idea that it's something we want to do, but no final "yes/no" as far as coding it, setting a price/weight etc.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
For the record, you have to assume artifact involvement for the sake of balance. So while it may be "locked," in all envoy and balance discussions, we must assume that it is available.
Super glad about the warrior artifact changes! Bummed I didn't know that earlier before I went Harbinger. *shakefist*
For the record, you have to assume artifact involvement for the sake of balance. So while it may be "locked," in all envoy and balance discussions, we must assume that it is available.
It was worth mentioning when carry was being compared to tier 4 Loboshigaru.
Skills that had modifiers or multipliers based on those three stats will now operate as if at 16. I recommend envoying song length to be a standard duration across the board.
But you're basically nerfing every bard's song length by at least 2 minutes. Why does it have to go in broken and then require an envoy report to fix? Why can't song length just be readjusted ahead of time to be comparable to the current average (say 22 or 23 cha)?
Throughout this overhaul, the Envoys have been reporting abilities affected by the overhaul and balancing them to the new system, it's the reason the reports were reopened.
Furthermore after the recent incident, it's unlikely we'll adjust abilities without it going through the envoy system.
There's an ongoing discussion with the envoys on both how to properly implement it, and what it should be set to. Currently giving time for envoys not online to leave their feedback before any adjustments are made.
The difference between the Shackles debacle and Bard song length is that a vast majority of bards usually have charisma of 20+ (sorry, Irontongue Viscanti), meaning the usual Bard song length is around 10 (?) minutes. Celestines never had Shackles, they received it through a separate report concerning pledges.
It's also highly unfair for Celestines to have received something as immensely powerful as passive shackles outside the envoy system, but everyone else has to go through the proper process to retain some semblance of combat viability for their guild kits. Two mistakes don't make something right, but one mistake is still a mistake. Undo the shackles report and have it go under the normal process like literally everything else (the very first Pyromeld incarnation, Night after Choke removal, etc.)
Yeah, it's not 10 minutes. I think the max max max is 520ish seconds, for the 24/25 cha + artifact. For most people it's 4-5 minutes, which is why rolling it back to being based on only 16 cha is a big deal.
Yeah, it's not 10 minutes. I think the max max max is 520ish seconds, for the 24/25 cha + artifact. For most people it's 4-5 minutes, which is why rolling it back to being based on only 16 cha is a big deal.
I believe the consensus is 250s duration without tempo right now. 300s with, artifact to add more. Should be pretty reasonable.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Comments
I'll double check with Roark next time I see him, but it's nothing I've seen brought up at any point.
The fact that the playing field will be leveled also doesn't mean that you will become weaker or less of a walking tank. The boosts will come from your class rather than your race, though, specifically as a warrior you should see an increase to your health pool over every other class. You might lose on some damage, but things will hopefully be scaled to where not much will change in regards to rate of killing things and so on. In general, I expect you'll probably be killing faster rather than slower due to the fact you'll have better speed once you lose the balance malus, and warrior bashing... at least as much as I've tested of it... has always been more about hitting more often to get more crits rather than slow, strong attacks. As an example, even though I never learned bonecrusher or blademaster on my warrior, I've noticed that using hammers/rapiers (depending on what the target is weak to) tends to speed up my bashing as a warrior rather than slowing it down despite the increased chance to miss simply because critical strikes show up more often the more you attack.
In the end, igasho will also be more viable for PvP due to the fact that they'll also lose the malus of having 9 intellect which is a pretty big killer considering the amount of mana-based kills out there and kills that rely on forcing you to sip something other than health. All in all, I feel that the loss of some low-level resistances is heavily offset by the fact that you'll also be gaining some attack speed and as a warrior will also still be at the top of the food chain when it comes to your health pool.
EDIT: TL;DR - I'd stick it out as an igasho BM and see what your bashing looks like after the overhaul. If you feel that it's bad THEN, I'm pretty sure the sweeping racial changes will definitely get each of us a free reincarnation.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
In the new system, before Demigod, the main advantage of Igasho will be in the Blademaster bonus. If you want to remain as a BM, then Igasho will probably be a good choice. At demi, Carry could have potential as a combat ability, though not for hunting. If you're thinking of changing Warrior specs, keep in mind that Warriors will be getting large changes, so you may want to wait.
However, you pointed out a lot of reasons why maybe Igasho would be better than they were because they'll no longer have a mana stat penalty, or a balance penalty. Ok, so all things being equal for health/mana/balance in terms of a warriors when these changes take effect, what would make you choose to be Igasho over other warrior races?
So yes, you are losing a lot of good stuff, but, you're also losing some nasty weaknesses. In the new system, there are no weaknesses, so races like igasho can't have as many....really, really good advantages.
Let me compare a bit with fink. We also have high health (not as high as igasho) and a really high stat (dex), along with really low int. And...honestly, the low in is horrible horrible horrible in combat. Horrible. So getting reasonable mana is a good thing.
However, I understand your concerns about losing a significant amount of damage, and probably health. I'm going to have to do that too, and I hate it, and I complained about it. And...well, you may have seen the tae'dae complaints, which are in a similar vein to yours. You do get a boost to sword damage however, so, (if I'm getting this right) you'll still do more damage with a sword than any other race (in a vaccum).
The problem is, you only get four special powers now. With one of them Blademaster, one scaling, and the new carry, that means...only one resistance. They could have given 1/4 cold and 1/4 something else instead, maybe would have been better?
You're yeti. That's the race idea. You get cold resist, mountain climbing, blademaster, warmth, and the ability to carry. So, it fits the race idea. You can go to Icewynd and probably cope pretty well with the cold, can scale to places and go hunting there better than any one else. I don't really know what to tell you, unless you want to make an argument for replacing carry with a bunch of resistances, or a health boost or something.
The compelling reason to be Igasho pre-demigod is that you like playing Igasho thematically. Most of the races don't get anything significant before the demigod tier.
Just a few things that weren't mentioned, you cited weapon runes as being a major reason to not switch from blademaster. All stat and wounding runes are being retired in this overhaul, they'll be able to be traded in at full price (as in what you paid for them) The only returners are the elemental damage and bleeding runes, so if you wanted to change spec, you may find it more viable to do so.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Vive l'apostrophe!
Skills that had modifiers or multipliers based on those three stats will now operate as if at 16. I recommend envoying song length to be a standard duration across the board.
Vive l'apostrophe!
Vive l'apostrophe!
woah 10 minutes??? Seriously?? Even as a brewmeister dwarf with 22 charisma, my song is only around 4-5 minutes.
Really wish we could delete double posts, grrr.
Vive l'apostrophe!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.