Not sure how complicated it is, but it looks like that's reusing the existing racial specs, in turn cutting out trackers and monks because they aren't currently currently included in them.
Would just tracking it by org be possible? This would broaden the availability to include all members of the org while only really removing this bonus from people who have Seren/Glom skills while not being members of said orgs.
Yeah, it'd be more straightforward to track it by org instead of by skillset, imho.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Thank you for all the effort @Baelor and all the others in the background too. I dooon't necessarily agree with everything in those new races, but I do appreciate effort. Especially the effort at communication. So thank you!
I was trying to make these points about the race I knew most about early on in the process with tae'sae and others tried to make them about dracnari. It was a lost cause then and even more so now. It's not something they are interested in hearing.
@Daganev - I don't know why you can't understand that people have read and considered -everything- you've said, and for some reason, you dismiss their disagreement as people 'not understanding the point.'
I can say the admin are extremely interested in hearing people's opinions and what they think, but that doesn't mean they are going to act on every single one of them. That's why these threads on forums exist in the first place, so they can hear the general opinions of the players.
Disagreement is not the same as 'not interested in hearing.' At this point you're sounding more and more like Arcanis.
Nobody who you think dissagrees with me has stated any disagreement with what I was trying to convey. It has been ignored, or strawmaned. Nobody has come out and said that they only want races to be PK orientated, or that Mechanic based RP should only be allowed for demigods in a majority of races. Nobody has even indicated any awareness that this new race system drastically alters the lore of races from a mechanical point of view for people who don't have PK as their only concern.
When somebody actually adresses the points I made, or exaplains why giving a unique racial perk at level one which ties into the demigod power creates imbalance or a power creep, I'll believe that my points where understood and disagreed with. Until then, it's very clear that the only input they want is on the numbers and pk ramifications.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I was trying to make these points about the race I knew most about early on in the process with tae'sae and others tried to make them about dracnari. It was a lost cause then and even more so now. It's not something they are interested in hearing.
@Daganev - I don't know why you can't understand that people have read and considered -everything- you've said, and for some reason, you dismiss their disagreement as people 'not understanding the point.'
I can say the admin are extremely interested in hearing people's opinions and what they think, but that doesn't mean they are going to act on every single one of them. That's why these threads on forums exist in the first place, so they can hear the general opinions of the players.
Disagreement is not the same as 'not interested in hearing.' At this point you're sounding more and more like Arcanis.
Nobody who you think dissagrees with me has stated any disagreement with what I was trying to convey. It has been ignored, or strawmaned.
Nobody has come out and said that they only want races to be PK orientated, or that Mechanic based RP should only be allowed for demigods in a majority of races. Nobody has even indicated any awareness that this new race system drastically alters the lore of races from a mechanical point of view for people who don't have PK as their only concern.
When somebody actually adresses the points I made, or exaplains why giving a unique racial perk at level one which ties into the demigod power creates imbalance or a power creep, I'll believe that my points where understood and disagreed with. Until then, it's very clear that the only input they want is on the numbers and pk ramifications.
This is incorrect. I have specifically addressed how this actually expands on lore opportunities through lifting limitations on races like tae'dae who suffered so much from "realism" that the opportunity for lore has been passed over because they are so unplayable. I have addressed how stats do not dictate RP and lore, it has always been that the stats have followed racial lore. You have been arguing backwards. I have also spoken on the importance of race perks not revolving around PK, and that some races, I used finks as an example, have been specifically created with perks that have nothing to do with PK. Others have as well, but speaking on my behalf, your concerns have been addressed with my own perspective.
Expanding lore opportunities is just another way of saying changing the lore.
Stats reflect the lore, but the new stats reflect new lore. Sure you can twist any feature to fit whatever preexisting lore exists, but I will be switching races, not because I've always wanted to be another race and now I can, but because the reason I was race x is now better reperesented by race y. And none of your points adress that. And its something that apparently can not be heard.
Furthermore, declaring a race I have been playing for 10+ years as "unplayable" is strange to say the least. That is precisely what I mean about being focused on pk. And to say that some demigod powers don't focus on pk, is again not paying attention to what I'm saying since I'm referring to races before reaching demigod status. Sure, racial pk balance requires taking demigod + into account... But that just further proves my point.
These changes mean we can have our cake and eat it too. Previously, you could chose a race as your RP preference, but that would often mean you weren't very competative in things like PK, hunting or influencing, OR you could pick your most viable mechanically race, at a sacrifice to the racial rp you wanted. There really weren't a lot of instances where people had both, especially in certain orgs and guilds (COUGH VISCANTI COUGH).
Now, all the races have been brought more into the same line, where everyone, no matter what org they are in, no matter their guild or skill set, can be whatever race they want for roleplay purposes and know that they are still mechanically going to be competative in pk, hunting and influencing. Some will still be better choices for different circumstances, and racehats are still a thing. But now it looks to me like it will be a lot fairer across the board.
I haven't even looked all that closely at the powers to be honest, because that sort of detail is not my forte, but the whole idea of this overhaul is brilliant and I am very optimistic about it all. If stats changing alters your RP so much that you now want to racechange, you're putting far too much weight into mechanics to stimulate your rp. How many low int characters rp as bumbling idiots? Not many. But if they have low intelligence, shouldn't they have to?? No, because stats are really insignificant when it comes to racial RP.
The following areas constitute as natural: Forest, Desert, River, Mountains, Tundra, Ocean, Freshwater, Deep Ocean, Vast Ocean, Trees, Volcanic, Beach, Grasslands, Natural underground, Hills, Valley, Swamp, Jungle, Garden, Reef, Polar, Wetlands, Clouds.
While this is a large number of terrain types, many of these are used in a handful of areas, some less.
You may notice a couple of omissions, while going through the list these were considered either artificial or hostile against nature.
To my knowledge, the terrain effects do not change a natural room's state. For example you can have cloudy forest, burning valley, even flooded desert.
Expanding lore opportunities is just another way of saying changing the lore.
Stats reflect the lore, but the new stats reflect new lore. Sure you can twist any feature to fit whatever preexisting lore exists, but I will be switching races, not because I've always wanted to be another race and now I can, but because the reason I was race x is now better reperesented by race y. And none of your points adress that. And its something that apparently can not be heard.
Furthermore, declaring a race I have been playing for 10+ years as "unplayable" is strange to say the least. That is precisely what I mean about being focused on pk. And to say that some demigod powers don't focus on pk, is again not paying attention to what I'm saying since I'm referring to races before reaching demigod status.
Sure, racial pk balance requires taking demigod + into account... But that just further proves my point.
Tae'dae were pretty much declared unplayable because nobody (With the exception of you/random newbies that are never heard from again) plays them. On that note, when was the last time you saw a krokani? An orclach? A taurian? How many of them were PK-ers? While I get it that you have an opinion, it also doesn't mean that everyone needs to drop whatever it is they are doing and bow down to it simply because you've been around for a while. There is nothing wrong with RP-ing what you want to RP without it being based on actual stats. As @Lavinya pointed out, name the people that RP solely based on their racial stats by RP-ing low int races as bumbling idiots... or maybe you'd like to name a few highly uncharismatic individuals from the low cha end of the spectrum? Me, I have yet to run into any of that except for the rare person here and there. Maybe you were the exception to the rule, but here's the point... stats being removed doesn't have to change how you RP your character, what their history is... or what their racial lore is. Yes, there will be tae'dae mages and guardians running around at some point, no doubt... and so what? It's not like your warrior tae'dae can't be what you expect/want him to be. He's obviously not going to be as smart as another that focused on studying magic since the beginning of time, now would he? That said, how clumsy is your character? I mean that 8 dex must really be a killer to any glassware in your immediate vicinity. And don't get me started on your 9 int. How can you actually be a poet if you don't know any words longer than say... chicken?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Expanding lore opportunities is just another way of saying changing the lore.
Stats reflect the lore, but the new stats reflect new lore. Sure you can twist any feature to fit whatever preexisting lore exists, but I will be switching races, not because I've always wanted to be another race and now I can, but because the reason I was race x is now better reperesented by race y. And none of your points adress that. And its something that apparently can not be heard.
Furthermore, declaring a race I have been playing for 10+ years as "unplayable" is strange to say the least. That is precisely what I mean about being focused on pk. And to say that some demigod powers don't focus on pk, is again not paying attention to what I'm saying since I'm referring to races before reaching demigod status.
Sure, racial pk balance requires taking demigod + into account... But that just further proves my point.
So firstly, no it's not, and certainly not in the way you are implying that it has been changed. The lore for tae'dae, which is grounded in the Book of Tae, has been expanded in that racial limitations no longer govern the accessibility of that lore. The lore itself, and it's really important that I'm clear on this when responded to your claims that the reverse is true, has not changed. Stats are racial weaknesses are not the lore, they are mechanical representations of the lore, and those are two very different things.
"Unplayable" is hyperbole, which I thought was apparent though I suspect you are simply objecting to that term to be obtuse and make a point rather than acknowleding the intent of the comment. The fact that you think my focus rests solely upon PK just really goes to show how little you are actually listening to what anyone is saying, which is pretty frustrating considering you are repeatedly complaining that no one is listening to you. They are "unplayable," in that they are eclipsed by multiple races in every single facet of that race's mechanical identity that there is no incentive to play them, compounded with the fact that there limitations are so severe that they have a net loss of effectiveness when you combine all their existing perks and maluses.
Seriously. I can't believe this is an honest complaint about the break down of a race's lore and history because they can't "bearhug" before demigod. Talk about hyperbole. Maybe that's why you don't feel like your concerns are not being addressed. The very foundation of your complaint is over the top. It's pretty difficult to address a complaint that reaches a certain degree of absurdity.
Yeah @Daganev - all your points have been addressed and refuted multiple times by multiple people. But they 'just don't understand your point.'
There is literally zero reason why you can't play and RP a tae'dae warrior poet just like you used to. It doesn't matter that you won't get the influencing bonus for not being a bard, because you can still RP being a warrior poet. So you won't be an above average influencer, but it turns out that things in general are going to be more 'normalized' which believe it or not, is going to allow for more diversity in races.
The disconnect is so wide and vast, I can't understand it. And repeating yourselves for a third time is unlikely to change that. I agree with most of what you are saying, it's just irrelevant to what I'm trying to convey.
I get that people like the new direction, and yes opening up races is great.. But it doesn't have to be done at the expense of previous player choices.
I will try one more time.... Looking at the new races, I will be changing race when the new things are implemented. Not because of these wonderful new opportunities, but because the taedae race I chose, will be better represented by other races.
I wrote a whole long list of suggestions on the Google doc page which if something similar was implemented I would not need to switch.
There is nothing preventing this system that is being proposed from being implemented in a way that would remove the concerns I first raised and others have raised since. Except for a lack of desire.
The disconnect is so wide and vast, I can't understand it.
I get that people like the new direction, and yes opening up races is great.. But it doesn't have to be done at the expense of previous player choices.
I will try one more time....
Looking at the new races, I will be changing race when the new things are implemented. Not because of these wonderful new opportunities, but because the taedae race I chose, will be better represented by other races.
I wrote a whole long list of suggestions on the Google doc page which if something similar was implemented I would not need to switch.
There is nothing preventing this system that is being proposed from being implemented in a way that would remove the concerns I first raised and others have raised since. Except for a lack of desire.
I agree, the disconnect here is so incredibly vast, it's crazy.
It seems that you believe (like @Arcanis) that you should be the sole voice of reason and that everyone else's opinion means nothing.
The Tae'dae race you choose will still be the best represented by the -tae'dae- race and you've failed to provide any evidence or logical reasoning refuting that. You sit here and state 'that if something similiar to what I suggested was put in' when the fact is something similiar was put in. The only real difference between the implemented race perks and your suggestions is that you need to be a bard to get the influencing bonus and you don't get bearhug until demigod. If that's the reason you're going to switch races, because you can't bearhug at level 1, or you won't be an above average influencer purely by race anymore, then I don't know what to tell you.
Here's the catch, you can still be a great influencer without a racial perk. You can still be a good warrior without the ability to bearhug. The new implementation of bearhug will actually do a decent amount of damage and be something more than random perk of being a tae'dae.
You're definitely right, there is a disconnect, but it's on your end.
There is literally zero reason why you can't play and RP a tae'dae warrior poet just like you used to.
You say there are zero reasons, and I say there is at least one reason. Because I'll want to play a different race to get the same type of benefits that I initially chose the taedae for.
The disconnect is so wide and vast, I can't understand it.
I get that people like the new direction, and yes opening up races is great.. But it doesn't have to be done at the expense of previous player choices.
I will try one more time....
Looking at the new races, I will be changing race when the new things are implemented. Not because of these wonderful new opportunities, but because the taedae race I chose, will be better represented by other races.
I wrote a whole long list of suggestions on the Google doc page which if something similar was implemented I would not need to switch.
There is nothing preventing this system that is being proposed from being implemented in a way that would remove the concerns I first raised and others have raised since. Except for a lack of desire.
I'm quite failing to understand how your tae'dae race is now better represented by others. Is it the influencing buffs? What, do you think every race that doesn't have an influencing buff will suck at influencing across the board? I rather doubt that'll happen. Sure, your ego pool won't be as high as say a bard's.... being that you are a warrior, but that will not change how good you are at influencing. That said, why does influencing translate to being a poet or a good bard? One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Yes, influencing is based on charisma and yes, bards tend to be races that run with high charisma, but beyond that, there is nothing that implies that a bard's identity has to translate to being a good influencer. Same deal applies to your poet thing. Not that any race will be a bad influencer unlike what we have right now.
You wrote a whole long list of suggestions. You also arbitrarily added an extra tier and decided to swap several things from level 100 to level 1 to fit with this extra tier then added a booster at level 100 that will produce the same result at level 100 that current racial suggestions have to fit with your extra tier. I honestly don't follow the point. Also, if you really want your bearhugging, you can always emote it like any reasonable RP-er would. Sure, it won't do damage but it's not like it did a whole lot of damage either way... not to mention the hassle of having to declare to bearhug.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
There is literally zero reason why you can't play and RP a tae'dae warrior poet just like you used to.
You say there are zero reasons, and I say there is at least one reason. Because I'll want to play a different race to get the same type of benefits that I initially chose the taedae for.
Yes, you can change race to get whatever perks you want, but lets make this clear. You're changing races because you're choosing too, not because they are changing tae'dae so much that it's really a completely different race and most certainly not because your opinions and suggestions were 'ignored'
That more something about you, not much about the system . It'd be like me leaving my race because they changed the bonus on ikon consuming: sure, the change will drive a players choice, but...
There is literally zero reason why you can't play and RP a tae'dae warrior poet just like you used to.
You say there are zero reasons, and I say there is at least one reason. Because I'll want to play a different race to get the same type of benefits that I initially chose the taedae for.
He says there are zero reasons because you're really not making your reasons known... or at least the driving force behind them. "They changed my race so much it's not the same" is not a reason. It's a "boo hoo, they changing my race". Back it up with some evidence of how these changes are killing your RP beyond "But it's different now from what it was" and we'll talk. I'm really trying to be reasonable here, but I'm starting to ask myself questions that would be considered quite rude if I aimed them your way.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I just want to get CATCHFLY to restore hme. I've lost all reasons to play Mugwump.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
#bringShikariback
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
There is literally zero reason why you can't play and RP a tae'dae warrior poet just like you used to.
You say there are zero reasons, and I say there is at least one reason. Because I'll want to play a different race to get the same type of benefits that I initially chose the taedae for.
This doesn't make any sense. Tae'dae have never been the best influencers, ever. They were outclassed by a handful of races, they are still outclassed by a handful of races. Why are you, in this context, forced to change races when the status quo has been upheld? The only thing that has changed is the disparity between the best and worst influencers isn't a gaping chasm.
First of all, I have not been following the forums actively,
so I am a little late to this debate. I apologize in advance for bringing such
huge issues so late, but I feel I should not remain silent.
While I appreciate the attempts to fix the problems of our
broken race system, I feel that this proposed system has several large
design-level problems that might detract from the play experience.
Specifically, I feel this system will cloud the play experience and reduce flavor
for new players.
The proposed system does accomplish the goals of ‘No
overwhelmingly best choice for any role’ and ‘no unplayable combination’
However, I think it comes with a few flaws that are troubling to saying the
least.
I will summarize here and elaborate below.
1.
1) Heroes are defined by what they do, the majority
of the racial distinctions are defined by what is done to them.
2.
2) The relevance of many of the bonuses (especially
resistances) are determined more by external factors than by the choices made
by the player.
3. 3)Social aspects are a critical part of MUD play,
but basing races primarily on resistances and external factors will mean that
two mid-level characters will have trouble ‘feeling’ the uniqueness of their
characters during collaborative play.
4.
4) Influencing is a signature feature of Lusternia
that distinguishes us from other MUDs but it is mechanically ignored by the
race system during the period of formative play experience.
5.
5) The bonuses are handed out at mathematically convenient
times that don’t take into account the play experience.
This game is a game of heroes.
Heroes are defined by what they /do/ and what they do well. Despite the balance
issues, each current race has something that they do well at right out of the
portal. Day one, the feel is unique.
Under the proposed system, most
races (especially at the stage where we must retain new players) are defined by
resistances or more specifically, what is /done to/ them. This is the opposite of heroism. Now while I
understand that significant resistance to common forms of damage can feel like ‘active’
participation, that is only the case in a scant few of the races. (and only if
you hunt instead of influence)
Another important design issue is one
of relevance. Far too many races are only relevant in certain circumstances.
Outside these circumstances, the races have no effect on the play experience. As
proposed, humans are the master race: They are the only race whose bonus never ‘shuts
off’. Worse yet, the low level
resistances given to some races are completely irrelevant inside of Newton
Caverns.
The bonuses that arrive in Newton caverns often have no relevance to anything in Newton Caverns.
These bonuses will seem wasted and that is a ‘feel bad’ mechanic. So you tell new Lobo players “Until 25th
level your only bonus is cold resistance” they will be like ‘Sweet, where can
I use it?”… “Nowhere that you can go
before level 25”. This seems ridiculous. How can we expect players to last?
When your racial bonuses can be
completely eliminated by the wrong choice of quest, that is a design flaw. The proposed loboshigaru is a human without
bonus experience until Demigod unless you are fighting vs cold/fire or are
influencing with empower/paranoia. Too much of the character is defined externally.
In addition, social hunting
becomes a huge problem. As established
above, some mid level races are ‘humans without boxus xp’ if they are not in
the right circumstances. Imagine a
hunting team of a Loboshigaru and a Lucidian at level 45 under the proposed
system. In almost all cases, one of
them will not be able to use their abilities. One of them with be a human without bonus
experience at all times. Now we can
try to rotate the damage types to avoid this.. but then the protections
themselves become pointless. Players should be able to feel their characters
in a collaborative play situation. It is understandable that some players
will feel less special in certain areas, but the idea that some players will not feel special at all
in team hunting run contrary to good MUD design.
This system was obviously designed with combat in mind, but no
race has an influence bonus before level 50. Influencing is one of the
flagship mechanics of Lusternia, but it is ignored until mid-level. The idea that you can use a non-violent way
to build a character up in levels is one of the things that makes Lusternia
unique, but we have absolutely zero support for it here until level 50 (well into the
game). I doubt many players who saw the
influence mechanic and thought ‘let me try that out’ will make it to level 50 as
influencers without /some/ support.
Lastly, the rollout plan of 1-25-50-Demigod is questionable.
I think the numbers were chosen based on simple math and not on the needs of
the players or play experience. A ‘progressive increase’ mechanic can be useful
to 1) make character feel like they are making 2) create milestones for advancement that give
some fulfillment 3) Keep broken
abilities out of the hands of newer players (debatable, as you can credit
purchase up to transcendent abilities).
However, by the time you reach demigod, you’re already established.
Demigod also opens a whole new box of character options; one
more at that point is superfluous. I
would at least move the ‘demigod’ level down to 70 or 80, allowing people to
feel like ‘something has improved without me spending credits’ during the very long 50 to demigod stretch. Also we must make the bonuses suitable to the
tiers of play , which don’t always correspond to nice, neat, numbers.
And last, if somewhat repetitively, Being
able to level by influencing is a signature feature of low-mid Level Lusternian
play, but it is not supported during the formative period of play experience. Giving out influence bonuses only at level 50 seems
to ignore that fact that influencing is one this that sets us apart from other MUDs. Ask Marketing what they say
about advertising our unique non violent
system… but not supporting it to new players.
I think a statless system can work, but it has to focus on positive, proactive bonuses. We need to take into account the issue above: Positive, proactive representations of your racial abilities and the ability to have power relevant to all playstyles (especially influencing) and the ability for two players of difference races to play together without feeling that one of them has to give up every single bonus.
I do think the old system was only mis-balanced, not fundamentally flawed and will include some suggestions in another post.
Just throwing this out there. From my understanding, everyone, even uggothoids, will have the same base influence strength. Likely, if I were to guess, it will probably prove equivalent to influencing as a human or something at lot levels, which as someone who has leveled human, elfen, and faeling influencers, isn't that bad with appropriate buffs (ikon, tonics, whatever charisma buffs I had access to).
The admins have not said yet how the new influencing will work, how things will scale, or what old charisma buffs will do under the new system. If possible, @Baelor or @Estarra, can we have an idea of how influencing will work mechanically with the new races system? Something like number of influences a non bonus race would take to influence a Newton gnome/fink, a tosha monk, an org guard, and one of the Iirangsha mobs would be awesome.
Er, influencing bonuses only available after 50 isn't really a problem. Even as a faeling shadowsinger, pre-50 influencing is limited to... un-named villagers and a couple of out-of-the-way areas. Just take a look at this thread.
I would venture out on a limb (it's been a while since I last made a newbie) but pre-50 influencing guards even as a specc'd faeling or trill is also not really viable. I suppose if a newbie trans'd influencing immediately, and got access to all 3 empowering attacks, they might be able to do guards at.. 40?
As it is, influencing has never really been newbie friendly. The only "newbies" who actually level with it are pretty much alts who know how to exploit the system. The rare IRE vet who picks up the system and sees its potential is the other type of newbie who uses it over bashing for leveling up to 50. So influencing bonuses being locked behind level 50... is pretty much a non-concern.
As for races being "defined" by what they "do" better, well, I understand that sentiment, and it is precisely that kind of sentiment that I am happy to see go. There's nothing more frustrating when trying to get things balanced than having a wall of "But they aren't supposed to be good at that" or "But they're supposed to be better at that" thrown in the path. The sooner we can get rid of the "races need to be defined by what they do" baggage, the better. There's also nothing ridiculous at all about having situational resistances, or as the wording used "irrelevant-to-newton" resistances. Every race with a resistance right now faces that exact same problem. Dwarves can't "use" their elemental resistances until out of newton either. None of the racial abilities as they exist now really change the newton experience, they certainly don't define it.
I see some of your points but let me explain. The issue is one of positive, proactive character definition. It is minor baggage, but I feel a necessary part of creating a heroic play experience. What it is NOT is 'X race must be the best at..." or "Noone can be better at Y than X" . /That/ is unwanted baggage. Also, one of the principles of positive design does get rid of the 'they can't do that'. idea. They "Noone should be better than anyone else" is also heavy baggage. (At that point dismiss race and let people free RP their species)
What I am talking about is for races to be defined by 'edges', slight but not overwhelming advantages that give the feel that 'yes, I am different'. Now the balance part comes in to avoid 'this is the best choice' or 'no others can compete'. It's also good to have non competitive 'Ribbons': Advantages that are quite minor, but give flavor (The perfect example: Dracnari pipe lighting)
As for situational resistances: They are fine, but not as a defining feature. If you give someone an electric toy, you need to give them batteries. If you tell new player "Your only special ability is X, but.. you'll never get to use it until much later" that is discouraging. People want to start and have some definition right off the bat. While some playstyles are ok with the 'Your real ability is what you will grow into in 1-2 years'.. many players will not be ok with this. They won't stay long enough to fall in love (read: get addicted to) this place. A situational feature as part of a package is perfectly fine (as is the example of current dwarf elemental resistances). A situational feature as the only active part of the play experience is like handing a kid a toy without the batteries. Most people will be more upset by the missing batteries than excited for the day when the batteries actually arrive.
The race abilities right now don't exactly change the Newton experience, but the stats do. The current races are defined in multiples ways. Some weaknesses, some protections, more/fewer hits, faster/slower influence, sipping potions earlier. Being able to upgrade to the next section of Newton earlier.
Races can give slight edges and flavor. They are an aspect of variety and customization. Currently Wiccans have one main and 3 options for tertiary. If races become effectively moot or so minor as to be irrelevant, you have only 3 potential play experiences. With flavor from races, that expands massively.
Comments
You're not suggesting anything here I haven't already enquired about. Like I said, if I have any more on this I'll let you know.
Nobody who you think dissagrees with me has stated any disagreement with what I was trying to convey. It has been ignored, or strawmaned.
Nobody has come out and said that they only want races to be PK orientated, or that Mechanic based RP should only be allowed for demigods in a majority of races. Nobody has even indicated any awareness that this new race system drastically alters the lore of races from a mechanical point of view for people who don't have PK as their only concern.
When somebody actually adresses the points I made, or exaplains why giving a unique racial perk at level one which ties into the demigod power creates imbalance or a power creep, I'll believe that my points where understood and disagreed with. Until then, it's very clear that the only input they want is on the numbers and pk ramifications.
Stats reflect the lore, but the new stats reflect new lore. Sure you can twist any feature to fit whatever preexisting lore exists, but I will be switching races, not because I've always wanted to be another race and now I can, but because the reason I was race x is now better reperesented by race y. And none of your points adress that. And its something that apparently can not be heard.
Furthermore, declaring a race I have been playing for 10+ years as "unplayable" is strange to say the least. That is precisely what I mean about being focused on pk. And to say that some demigod powers don't focus on pk, is again not paying attention to what I'm saying since I'm referring to races before reaching demigod status.
Sure, racial pk balance requires taking demigod + into account... But that just further proves my point.
Now, all the races have been brought more into the same line, where everyone, no matter what org they are in, no matter their guild or skill set, can be whatever race they want for roleplay purposes and know that they are still mechanically going to be competative in pk, hunting and influencing. Some will still be better choices for different circumstances, and racehats are still a thing. But now it looks to me like it will be a lot fairer across the board.
I haven't even looked all that closely at the powers to be honest, because that sort of detail is not my forte, but the whole idea of this overhaul is brilliant and I am very optimistic about it all. If stats changing alters your RP so much that you now want to racechange, you're putting far too much weight into mechanics to stimulate your rp. How many low int characters rp as bumbling idiots? Not many. But if they have low intelligence, shouldn't they have to?? No, because stats are really insignificant when it comes to racial RP.
Is it everywhere except urban/constructed/constructed underground/road?
Are cosmic environments like divine/netherworld/whatevervortexandcontinuumare unnatural?
Does mage-created flooding/cloudy/burning/tainted invalidate an otherwise-natural environment?
While this is a large number of terrain types, many of these are used in a handful of areas, some less.
You may notice a couple of omissions, while going through the list these were considered either artificial or hostile against nature.
To my knowledge, the terrain effects do not change a natural room's state. For example you can have cloudy forest, burning valley, even flooded desert.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I get that people like the new direction, and yes opening up races is great.. But it doesn't have to be done at the expense of previous player choices.
I will try one more time....
Looking at the new races, I will be changing race when the new things are implemented. Not because of these wonderful new opportunities, but because the taedae race I chose, will be better represented by other races.
I wrote a whole long list of suggestions on the Google doc page which if something similar was implemented I would not need to switch.
There is nothing preventing this system that is being proposed from being implemented in a way that would remove the concerns I first raised and others have raised since. Except for a lack of desire.
I agree, the disconnect here is so incredibly vast, it's crazy.
You wrote a whole long list of suggestions. You also arbitrarily added an extra tier and decided to swap several things from level 100 to level 1 to fit with this extra tier then added a booster at level 100 that will produce the same result at level 100 that current racial suggestions have to fit with your extra tier. I honestly don't follow the point. Also, if you really want your bearhugging, you can always emote it like any reasonable RP-er would. Sure, it won't do damage but it's not like it did a whole lot of damage either way... not to mention the hassle of having to declare to bearhug.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
That being said I don't really see it on this one, I just wanted to empathize
First of all, I have not been following the forums actively, so I am a little late to this debate. I apologize in advance for bringing such huge issues so late, but I feel I should not remain silent.
While I appreciate the attempts to fix the problems of our broken race system, I feel that this proposed system has several large design-level problems that might detract from the play experience. Specifically, I feel this system will cloud the play experience and reduce flavor for new players.
The proposed system does accomplish the goals of ‘No overwhelmingly best choice for any role’ and ‘no unplayable combination’ However, I think it comes with a few flaws that are troubling to saying the least.
I will summarize here and elaborate below.
1. 1) Heroes are defined by what they do, the majority of the racial distinctions are defined by what is done to them.
2. 2) The relevance of many of the bonuses (especially resistances) are determined more by external factors than by the choices made by the player.
3. 3)Social aspects are a critical part of MUD play, but basing races primarily on resistances and external factors will mean that two mid-level characters will have trouble ‘feeling’ the uniqueness of their characters during collaborative play.
4. 4) Influencing is a signature feature of Lusternia that distinguishes us from other MUDs but it is mechanically ignored by the race system during the period of formative play experience.
5. 5) The bonuses are handed out at mathematically convenient times that don’t take into account the play experience.
This game is a game of heroes. Heroes are defined by what they /do/ and what they do well. Despite the balance issues, each current race has something that they do well at right out of the portal. Day one, the feel is unique.Under the proposed system, most races (especially at the stage where we must retain new players) are defined by resistances or more specifically, what is /done to/ them. This is the opposite of heroism. Now while I understand that significant resistance to common forms of damage can feel like ‘active’ participation, that is only the case in a scant few of the races. (and only if you hunt instead of influence)
Another important design issue is one of relevance. Far too many races are only relevant in certain circumstances. Outside these circumstances, the races have no effect on the play experience. As proposed, humans are the master race: They are the only race whose bonus never ‘shuts off’. Worse yet, the low level resistances given to some races are completely irrelevant inside of Newton Caverns.
The bonuses that arrive in Newton caverns often have no relevance to anything in Newton Caverns. These bonuses will seem wasted and that is a ‘feel bad’ mechanic. So you tell new Lobo players “Until 25th level your only bonus is cold resistance” they will be like ‘Sweet, where can I use it?”… “Nowhere that you can go before level 25”. This seems ridiculous. How can we expect players to last?
When your racial bonuses can be completely eliminated by the wrong choice of quest, that is a design flaw. The proposed loboshigaru is a human without bonus experience until Demigod unless you are fighting vs cold/fire or are influencing with empower/paranoia. Too much of the character is defined externally.In addition, social hunting becomes a huge problem. As established above, some mid level races are ‘humans without boxus xp’ if they are not in the right circumstances. Imagine a hunting team of a Loboshigaru and a Lucidian at level 45 under the proposed system. In almost all cases, one of them will not be able to use their abilities. One of them with be a human without bonus experience at all times. Now we can try to rotate the damage types to avoid this.. but then the protections themselves become pointless. Players should be able to feel their characters in a collaborative play situation. It is understandable that some players will feel less special in certain areas, but the idea that some players will not feel special at all in team hunting run contrary to good MUD design.
This system was obviously designed with combat in mind, but no race has an influence bonus before level 50. Influencing is one of the flagship mechanics of Lusternia, but it is ignored until mid-level. The idea that you can use a non-violent way to build a character up in levels is one of the things that makes Lusternia unique, but we have absolutely zero support for it here until level 50 (well into the game). I doubt many players who saw the influence mechanic and thought ‘let me try that out’ will make it to level 50 as influencers without /some/ support.
Lastly, the rollout plan of 1-25-50-Demigod is questionable. I think the numbers were chosen based on simple math and not on the needs of the players or play experience. A ‘progressive increase’ mechanic can be useful to 1) make character feel like they are making 2) create milestones for advancement that give some fulfillment 3) Keep broken abilities out of the hands of newer players (debatable, as you can credit purchase up to transcendent abilities). However, by the time you reach demigod, you’re already established.
Demigod also opens a whole new box of character options; one more at that point is superfluous. I would at least move the ‘demigod’ level down to 70 or 80, allowing people to feel like ‘something has improved without me spending credits’ during the very long 50 to demigod stretch. Also we must make the bonuses suitable to the tiers of play , which don’t always correspond to nice, neat, numbers.
And last, if somewhat repetitively, Being able to level by influencing is a signature feature of low-mid Level Lusternian play, but it is not supported during the formative period of play experience. Giving out influence bonuses only at level 50 seems to ignore that fact that influencing is one this that sets us apart from other MUDs. Ask Marketing what they say about advertising our unique non violent system… but not supporting it to new players.
I think a statless system can work, but it has to focus on positive, proactive bonuses. We need to take into account the issue above: Positive, proactive representations of your racial abilities and the ability to have power relevant to all playstyles (especially influencing) and the ability for two players of difference races to play together without feeling that one of them has to give up every single bonus.
I do think the old system was only mis-balanced, not fundamentally flawed and will include some suggestions in another post.
The admins have not said yet how the new influencing will work, how things will scale, or what old charisma buffs will do under the new system. If possible, @Baelor or @Estarra, can we have an idea of how influencing will work mechanically with the new races system? Something like number of influences a non bonus race would take to influence a Newton gnome/fink, a tosha monk, an org guard, and one of the Iirangsha mobs would be awesome.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
I would venture out on a limb (it's been a while since I last made a newbie) but pre-50 influencing guards even as a specc'd faeling or trill is also not really viable. I suppose if a newbie trans'd influencing immediately, and got access to all 3 empowering attacks, they might be able to do guards at.. 40?
As it is, influencing has never really been newbie friendly. The only "newbies" who actually level with it are pretty much alts who know how to exploit the system. The rare IRE vet who picks up the system and sees its potential is the other type of newbie who uses it over bashing for leveling up to 50. So influencing bonuses being locked behind level 50... is pretty much a non-concern.
As for races being "defined" by what they "do" better, well, I understand that sentiment, and it is precisely that kind of sentiment that I am happy to see go. There's nothing more frustrating when trying to get things balanced than having a wall of "But they aren't supposed to be good at that" or "But they're supposed to be better at that" thrown in the path. The sooner we can get rid of the "races need to be defined by what they do" baggage, the better. There's also nothing ridiculous at all about having situational resistances, or as the wording used "irrelevant-to-newton" resistances. Every race with a resistance right now faces that exact same problem. Dwarves can't "use" their elemental resistances until out of newton either. None of the racial abilities as they exist now really change the newton experience, they certainly don't define it.
I see some of your points but let me explain. The issue is one of positive, proactive character definition. It is minor baggage, but I feel a necessary part of creating a heroic play experience. What it is NOT is 'X race must be the best at..." or "Noone can be better at Y than X" . /That/ is unwanted baggage. Also, one of the principles of positive design does get rid of the 'they can't do that'. idea. They "Noone should be better than anyone else" is also heavy baggage. (At that point dismiss race and let people free RP their species)
What I am talking about is for races to be defined by 'edges', slight but not overwhelming advantages that give the feel that 'yes, I am different'. Now the balance part comes in to avoid 'this is the best choice' or 'no others can compete'. It's also good to have non competitive 'Ribbons': Advantages that are quite minor, but give flavor (The perfect example: Dracnari pipe lighting)
As for situational resistances: They are fine, but not as a defining feature. If you give someone an electric toy, you need to give them batteries. If you tell new player "Your only special ability is X, but.. you'll never get to use it until much later" that is discouraging. People want to start and have some definition right off the bat. While some playstyles are ok with the 'Your real ability is what you will grow into in 1-2 years'.. many players will not be ok with this. They won't stay long enough to fall in love (read: get addicted to) this place. A situational feature as part of a package is perfectly fine (as is the example of current dwarf elemental resistances). A situational feature as the only active part of the play experience is like handing a kid a toy without the batteries. Most people will be more upset by the missing batteries than excited for the day when the batteries actually arrive.
The race abilities right now don't exactly change the Newton experience, but the stats do. The current races are defined in multiples ways. Some weaknesses, some protections, more/fewer hits, faster/slower influence, sipping potions earlier. Being able to upgrade to the next section of Newton earlier.
Races can give slight edges and flavor. They are an aspect of variety and customization. Currently Wiccans have one main and 3 options for tertiary. If races become effectively moot or so minor as to be irrelevant, you have only 3 potential play experiences. With flavor from races, that expands massively.