I certainly understand the opposition to this change, but then, reading over this thread, it seems like most people understand the opposition. It's a huge change, and it's drastic, and it's different, and it does -massively- homogenize the races. I personally don't understand what's wrong with statpacks as a means to enhance RP viability of all races, but then, I've missed the last 2 years of overhaul talks, so I assume it was discussed and shot down at some point. Still, the stated goal of the overhaul seems to be "get rid of outliers and reduce the necessity of min/maxing for viability" which is a noble goal, but it also means there's going to be a -lot- of homogenization of... everything. At least at first. But it makes it odd to me to complain further about homogenization when that is essentially the -point- of what's happening.
On a personal level, it makes me sad because of my regular characters, two were trill and one was faeling, and I'm so very fond of influencing. And trill don't even seem to be keeping their "naturally sexy" perk! Alas, my poor seduction influence, that I never used anyways. On the other hand, all three were chosen more or less for RP purposes anyways, so if anything, this is more validation.
I had a couple bonus thoughts.
-Newton Caverns In my younger days, I made a good number of alts and ran them through Newton. I really have to say, the biggest influence race had was whether I could use FLY and cross Lake Lolliprin more easily. Granted, I didn't make poor choices, like Illithoid bards, or Viscanti anything. But I don't think "my experience could have potentially been substantially worse because I chose poorly" is a point in favor of stats. The main bashing skill, more than anything, affected how much enjoyment I had. By which I mean playing as a warrior sucked. (True story, the VERY first character I ever made was an Aslaran Paladin. A rat killed me. I quit Lusternia forever.)
-Expecting players to last Let's say you're a newbie, and not just Shaddus pretending to be one. You pick Mag as your org, because you like Darkness. You pick Cacophony as your guild because you like Dethklok and Cacophony are clearly the most metal of all bards. You pick Illithoid as a race because you played D&D a couple of times and think mind flayers are really cool.
Are you really more likely to last because of a 7 charisma than because you have bonus poison resist that doesn't factor in at all until after newton?
Personally, I think allowing a newbie to play whatever race they choose without it being miserable is better for retention.
-Level 50 It's not hard. It wasn't even mid-game back in the day, when Newbie status expired at level 21. Now, when you get to be an UberNoob until 30? Level 50 would probably still be learning to play without training wheels. It's hardly "well into the game". Especially in a game with an experience curve like Lusternia.
-Lack of support for influencing Removing a small amount of positive, and all of the negative, does not constitute a net loss. Certain races eventually getting an influence perk is not 'support' of influencing. Support of influencing is making it so your sweet-tongued Orchlach *can actually influence*. And I say this as someone maining two races who are slated to go from "great" to "average" at influencing!
-Random Lore concerns it would be nice if every aspect of pre-OH mechanics and lore could be preserved, somehow. But it can't. We just have to take the good with the bad. Trill are losing Seduction boost, and this makes me sad even though Seduction is the red-headed stepchild of influencing. Stratas is no longer inherently attractive. On the plus side, he can finally go to Estelbar without furrikin constantly humping his leg.
BUT lore is also not mechanical. It's lore that Kephera form matriarchal hives. Currently this is supported by mechanics. It looks like after the OH it will not. Does that mean that Kephera will no longer form matriarchal hives? I hope they still do. If they don't, it's a failing of the playerbase, not the coding.
I can't help but think that many lore concerns would be alleviated by making the lore IG more robust. With the removal of stats and maluses, the Racial Help files will now have large amounts of free real estate. It could be populated with -more information-. Like, most racehelps seem to be history and physical description, basically. Maybe something about racial outlook, or general stereotypes that can be played with or against. Why are furrikin all bouncy? Why are Krokani predisposed to incest and murder? Maybe there should be Help files made up for the Sharded Gods, and the racehelps could refer to them, to give some background and history on the Divine the races come from, without having to read all of the Elder Books straight away just to figure out how to RP a Merian.
And honestly, the best "mechanical" change in support of lore might simply be making sure that every race has good racial emotes, and maybe putting THOSE in the racehelps.
-An actual question Trill are going to have 1/10 regen in cloudy environments. Is this equivalent to their current "while flying" regen, in terms of location? I just flew around a few places in the Basin, Stairs of the Last Nine, Toronada River, Verasavir Valley. In each place, Survey Says environment conforms to whatever the ground type is, not cloudy (I don't even recall offhand where cloudy IS, other than maybe Hallifax and Aero demenses?) But my regen is definitely working.
Anyways, it all sounds exciting, and over all, I'm strongly supportive of this direction. Especially if it helps up the diversity of the basin. I'm sure Igasho RWHO gets pretty lonely.
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
A very good point about the unplayable combinations, which is a problem to address and can actively drive players out. However, we must be concerned with actively keeping them, not simply 'not driving them away'. People don't stay for a 'not bad' time. They stay for exciting and interesting times. That's my biggest issue with the resistance-heavy stats offered: Nothing really screams "I want to try that" until demigod. While noone will quit Lusternia in a frustrated huff, they will just quietly forget us and go play somewhere else. The system might be 'not broken' but it's not actively /fun/ either.
Also, the trill bonus you mentioned is a perfect example of a great bonus. It's not exactly powerful, but it gives you some sense of who trill are. It guides some RP, giving trill a little focus. Other nice bits like Dracnari basking are all perfect little perks.
Using the example of D&D, the newer editions did away with stat maluses altogether, focusing on positive definitions. The stat system we have does have a few suboptimal systems, but there are other ways to fix this. A rebalancing of which bonuses (speed) are too much and which maluses are too harsh is what is needed. The homogenous system.. well its not bad. Literally.. its active element seems to be 'being races because we need races, but avoiding anything unbalanced' at the cost of having anything fun.
Most of the unbalanced issues come from. A) Severe maluses (which may have not been recognized at the time) Speed is king: The underestimated effect of timing C) Unrecognized synergy during design. (Giving Aslarans more hits per unit time and great wounding per hit at the same time..)
I'm not sure how this sounds exciting to you. It's simple and somewhat elegant, but it lacks flash and allure.
First and foremost, sorry for any formatting issues since I'm bound to only being able to reply with my phone for now.
Now, as for these concerns, as Shuyin has said, we've definitely moved forward with the first implementation and while there will be refinements that will happen, don't anticipate anything being fully stopped at this point in time.
Reading over the issues raised, it comes across to me that the main concern voiced is the problem that the races are balanced around the end goal rather than immediate gratification for newcomers. The game has traditionally taken this approach - inherent even in the skill system as folk learn from inept to trans in any of their skills. Nothing has ever been given completely as a push to work for benefits has always been central to a lot of Lusternia's mechanics.
If races received nothing at all at the beginning, I'd agree to a shortchanging of the newcomers, but this isn't the case. The fact that resistances are encountered first rather than a utility skill may be an issue, but one I feel to be shortsighted. While true that a cold resistance does not shine in Newton, it is a stepping stone to the overall development of a race.
A worry is voiced that while this overhaul does not actively push away newcomers, it doesn't do anything to keep them either. To this I reply that if the one point that a newcomer quits the game over is because of a shortcoming in one aspect of their gaming experience (that of racial skills) then it's a failure on the game as a whole since we've then had a shortage of either guild skills, guild roleplay, city perks, city roleplay, order perks, order roleplay, or racial roleplay that could have alleviated one (as of yet unseen) lack in the racial skill department.
This setup aims to make things better for the long haul. The elimination of outliers balances things for the future development of a character as they should no longer feel useless if they chose to play x-race as y-class. Removing this concern should help retain interested parties more, even if they don't encounter the initial flash of shiny skills when they first choose a given race.
As far as very very situational skills, there's a reason for a rewrite for the extremely niche perks like flying regen for Trills. Point blank, it does nothing for people to be regenerating in the skies since 95% of all action will be happening on the ground or trees level. While flavourful, time and again has shown that such mechanics that don't prove useful a majority of the time end up giving a race a perceived malus over other races who encounter perks in more common situations (cloudy terrain, for example).
This isn't to say I'm completely against tweaks in the early stages of racial development if they're warranted, of course. However, I would keep in mind a lot of the thoughts aired out in previous comments already: racial skills or mechanics do not define a race, but the history and lore do. Just because a trill no longer has a seduction influence bonus does not mean they're any less charismatic as a racial whole.
God, too much to write on the phone, but let me know if you have any questions.
Apologies I've not been able to reply sooner to this.
Firstly, as noted, this system is currently being implemented and coded. Sweeping changes at this point are extremely unlikely to happen. This isn't because we're refusing to take feedback, but because our coder team is working hard to get the current design in, and changing things without live testing would be giving extra workload to people already putting in a great amount of effort. Without them this whole redesign would remain simply a concept, and they deserve a huge amount of credit in getting everything to work.
That said, all feedback is taken on board at this point, concerns and ideas are always welcome as we reserve the right to make changes and adjustments once deployed. However we want to see the system in live gameplay first before making any further adjustments at this point, we don't want to balance purely on napkin math and theoretical scenarios.
That being said, as to the concerns of how the lower tier skills aren't "fun" and potentially lack value.
Newton is designed to be completed by players simply using BASH and the equipment with which they started, as well as basic begging in influence. For players who are new to Lusternia, or even new to MUDs entirely, there is a great deal of information to take onboard, regarding understanding how quests work, moving around, the abilities available to them through their class skills. Adding active abilities across the board for new players to factor in would be
A: Pointless, as they're unnecessary at this stage in the game. B: An extra level of information to take onboard, when the game can already be confusing and scary.
Granted, cold resistance is useless in Newton, almost all resistances are (although spectre island is a popular newbie area where cold benefits) but it's a passive that a new player doesn't have to think about, and doesn't have to take into account. This is a design concept that is mirrored in many modern games, you start off with basic abilities that require limited management, and as you grow you gain more powerful abilities to either replace or compliment your current skills.
The numbers are not simply mathematically picked because we liked how they work. Level 25 is where most people leave the Newton area, some leave before, some leave at 30. Level 50 is where the game difficulty first begins to increase, as most players have the lessons and gold to invest in curing and some manageable mitigation and offence. Remember you still retain the advantage of immunity to natural tiredness and hunger at 80, come Demigod, you (theoretically) understand the game now. You'll have one, if not several, skills at transcendent and you're at the point where you understand a lot of the game mechanics and either active or powerful passive perks are ones you can utilise and understand how to make use of them.
Influencing is not ignored, no more or less than bashing is, I'm unsure as to how you think this is the case. With charisma gone, influencing is open to everyone (granted skill investment still applies) I'm not entirely sure of the exact details, in regards to how fast/slow it will be for people compared to now. The current formula uses your stats for attack calculations, either as a positive or negative modifier. You'll certainly be slower than a warbling Trill is, but you'll be faster than an Orclach or Illithoid are now. If the general values are too low in any attack, combat or influencing, we can adjust the base value to bring it into a level which is acceptable.
Granted for some people this will feel like a nerf, but like many aspects of the overhaul, we're removing outliers that are an issue for balance in the game. This, along with removing crippling maluses and stats that give people a distinct disadvantage in playing certain classes gives people the option to do what they like. Some races will have advantages in certain fields, but the difference will not be as vast as it is now. Therefore saying we are ignoring influencing as any bonuses won't come in till 50 is very much incorrect.
Furthermore there's the argument that most new players do not go for influencing, and instead prefer hunting to level up, which we've made easier. Alts who do choose to influence do not take any real length of time to reach 50, they're aware of the mechanics already and how best to utilise them.
If new players do not stick with Lusternia, there will likely to be other factors in play than finding their race boring. Those issues will be the ones we likely address, not overloading with more information and mechanics at level one.
Edit: Kephera do keep their matriarchal hives. They were redesigned into a perk for the Kephera race when Zenobia is empowered. This was mentioned on a previous page, just the actual details weren't released, same with Dark Reapers.
I must have missed that about the hives, sorry! It was a lot of thread to read over.
My curiosity over whether trill keep flying regen or not was simply that, curiosity. As a nublet trill, I made use of it from time to time, since I had it so why not, but it's never been a big thing. I have no qualms for it going, since even then there were so many ways to regen, and now there are likely more. I'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that these regen bonuses for the specialist races are designed to work with their respective demesnes, and this is just one of those disadvantages of being a spec race outside their home city. I also don't recall straight off where on prime is cloudy (Clarramore?). Them's the breaks. #Trill4Life.
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
Honestly, the only power I'm really concerned about is the Lucidian artifact perk. 20% faster active power regeneration affects the balance such a huge swathe of the game (all power skills), it's a problematic abilitiy. Even if the active power ability is toned down, any increase to the speed at which you regain active power is going to be a problem. Most of the other problematic abilities (Krokani being flat IMMUNE to blind, the -wood features) can probably be addressed by envoys*, that one is particularly an issue.
*Assuming that these are even open to envoy feedback, as artifact powers. I've repeatedly expressed my opinion on the entire system being problematic, so meh.
Suggesting viable alternatives are likely going to be received better than just expressing problematic opinions.
As well, I believe these should indeed be up for envoy tweaks if needed. I think the -wood and Krokani powers are great, but I agree certain things like Lucidians and Igasho will likely need close scrutiny for awhile.
Almost anything else would be less disruptive: The biggest unique feature of Lusternia's balance paradigm is the need to manage active power. It's a thread that runs through the vast majority of reports, all of them that have some kind of power cost attached. Recovering power once per 6 seconds instead of once per 8 seconds affects every class and every player, in ways that are too numerous to list or account for. It's neither niche nor marginal!
The -wood benefits are just problematic because they aren't very useful. For wildewoods at least, the 5p burst skills (hartpine, bluehorn, flowerpower) don't serve any tactical goal*, and having a modifier to Glinshari just makes it harder to balance that skill (which doesn't currently allow kills at max affs anyways). It can be handled later, however, as it doesn't create OP issues.
How about something in line with the Viscanti and Dracnari percentile chance abilities for Lucidians, but in reaction to being hit instead of on hit - like a woodchem reactive. What about... shroud at night/inside, aoe attack outside during the day? What about a movement speed boost during the day, or a the ability to cone regardless of class (and do it better if you already can). What about some kind of limited racial prismatic ability?
In general I agree with Haghan in that resistances have always been overvalued. A 1/8 defense in one or two types is not equivalent to a 1/8 boost, because you need to defend against most, if not all types but only deal a limited subset of types. With the percentage values being normalized, this isn't a big deal.
A random thing and minor. But something that might be "helping" the generic feelings might be the lack of naming or elaboration for the lower level traits. They're just a bonus "for reasons". The cold resists for example seem like they are there for some races due to thick pelts, Illithoid's excorable resist likely due to their nature as shards of Illith.
IDK, it would be nice to have "you have this because of this interesting lore reason" plus it'd help to publicise the rationalisations, like the faeling divinus resistance.
Please just add the weak versions to stop Daganev's constant complants. Apparently they make races playable because without them, other races better represent Tae-dae and he won't have to change. It will also get his nonsensical ranting to stop. Lord knows that a Tae'dae without the ability to bearhug beyond custom emoting aren't really Tae'dae anymore for heaven's sake.
-Very Weak lv1 version of Demigod Perk suggestions:
Aslaran - Player declares a target. When target tries to leave the room, player whines and begs them not to go.
Fink - So-so Marksman: Smart enough to use an aetherturret if trained. Still misses occasionally.
Furrikin - Squirm: Like writhe, but cuter.
Gnome - Novice Crewman: Likes to sit in the Captain's Chair when no one is looking. Can say "Make it so."
Igasho - Lift: Unusually good at moving large and bulky household items. Can carry extra bags at the grocery store.
Illithoid - Inner Maggot: While the inner worm is still developing, the Illithoid is prone to minor bouts of nausea. Non-debilitating, and easily ignored.
Merian - Leadership Training: Boosts positive feelings when people do way he says. Grows grumpy when not captain of a squad.
Orchlach - Stare Anxiously at Death: I mean, it's better when it happens to someone else, right? I don't know conglutination yet.
Tae'Dae - Bearhug: CAN ONLY BE USED TO HUG BEARS
Taurian - Tantrum: 10% chance on hit to throw a fit, with a 50% chance of cussing, and 50% chance of insulting a random target's mother.
Trill - ESCAPE!!: Runs around the room madly, flapping their arms in a blind panic.
Viscanti - Bad Breath: Like, liver and onions bad. Don't you floss?
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
-Very Weak lv1 version of Demigod Perk suggestions:
Aslaran - Player declares a target. When target tries to leave the room, player whines and begs them not to go.
Fink - So-so Marksman: Smart enough to use an aetherturret if trained. Still misses occasionally.
Furrikin - Squirm: Like writhe, but cuter.
Gnome - Novice Crewman: Likes to sit in the Captain's Chair when no one is looking. Can say "Make it so."
Igasho - Lift: Unusually good at moving large and bulky household items. Can carry extra bags at the grocery store.
Illithoid - Inner Maggot: While the inner worm is still developing, the Illithoid is prone to minor bouts of nausea. Non-debilitating, and easily ignored.
Merian - Leadership Training: Boosts positive feelings when people do way he says. Grows grumpy when not captain of a squad.
Orchlach - Stare Anxiously at Death: I mean, it's better when it happens to someone else, right? I don't know conglutination yet.
Tae'Dae - Bearhug: CAN ONLY BE USED TO HUG BEARS
Taurian - Tantrum: 10% chance on hit to throw a fit, with a 50% chance of cussing, and 50% chance of insulting a random target's mother.
Trill - ESCAPE!!: Runs around the room madly, flapping their arms in a blind panic.
Viscanti - Bad Breath: Like, liver and onions bad. Don't you floss?
A random thing and minor. But something that might be "helping" the generic feelings might be the lack of naming or elaboration for the lower level traits. They're just a bonus "for reasons". The cold resists for example seem like they are there for some races due to thick pelts, Illithoid's excorable resist likely due to their nature as shards of Illith.
IDK, it would be nice to have "you have this because of this interesting lore reason" plus it'd help to publicise the rationalisations, like the faeling divinus resistance.
I'd considered this already for when we change over the help files. I can't make promises, there's an awful lot of perks to name, but it's something I'd really like to do.
So question, once this goes through, can we choose race at the beginning of Newton? We choose org, so, we can just go 'No illithoid/viscanti for Celest/Seren, No elfen/merian/kepera for Mag.' Maybe no keph for Glom? Not sure.
Actually, just give orgs a way to restrict races, instead of how guilds do now, and race can be from beginning of Newton.
The disconnect is so wide and vast, I can't understand it.
I get that people like the new direction, and yes opening up races is great.. But it doesn't have to be done at the expense of previous player choices.
I will try one more time....
Looking at the new races, I will be changing race when the new things are implemented. Not because of these wonderful new opportunities, but because the taedae race I chose, will be better represented by other races.
I wrote a whole long list of suggestions on the Google doc page which if something similar was implemented I would not need to switch.
There is nothing preventing this system that is being proposed from being implemented in a way that would remove the concerns I first raised and others have raised since. Except for a lack of desire.
I agree, the disconnect here is so incredibly vast, it's crazy.
It seems that you believe (like Arcanis) that you should be the sole voice of reason and that everyone else's opinion means nothing.
The Tae'dae race you choose will still be the best represented by the -tae'dae- race and you've failed to provide any evidence or logical reasoning refuting that. You sit here and state 'that if something similiar to what I suggested was put in' when the fact is something similiar was put in. The only real difference between the implemented race perks and your suggestions is that you need to be a bard to get the influencing bonus and you don't get bearhug until demigod. If that's the reason you're going to switch races, because you can't bearhug at level 1, or you won't be an above average influencer purely by race anymore, then I don't know what to tell you.
Here's the catch, you can still be a great influencer without a racial perk. You can still be a good warrior without the ability to bearhug. The new implementation of bearhug will actually do a decent amount of damage and be something more than random perk of being a tae'dae.
You're definitely right, there is a disconnect, but it's on your end.
Im wondering if you originally mentioned and tagged me here to try and get me back to this discussion or some attempt at antagonizing or attempting to make a comment about me and make sure I read it.
Frankly no, I do not believe I am the "sole voice of reason", if anything the reason I was 'shouting so loud' was because I felt like once again myself and the other 'small guys' werent being heard compared to golden voices of certain envoys that seem to have a direct hotline with the admin and the decision-making process in...well everything. Until the envoys system is dismantled for a more universal system that allows all players to speak their voice (Yes lerad I know you were buddy buddy with your envoy and enjoyed talking skills while having sleep overs, but that isnt a balanced concept), then I never see Lusternia truly enhancing.
Edit:
Additionally, as for Gnome and Fink, if the current perks are going to stay then I would suggest they be changed from a 'purchasable' race to a 'quest' race, meaning a player could get the means to become a gnome or fink through the completion of a quest (Naturally would still need a dagger to reincarnate into one). I know it was said that the purchase race concept isnt for here, but just my 2 cents on the concept, because it -really- isnt worth 500 crs.
I'll note here that the Envoys have not had any influence in the decision making process during this, that hasn't been offered to all players in this thread. While there has been discussion on the Envoy aether (which I'm privy to and have a function for being there) it has either been theorycraft on numbers that are proposed, or times where I've floated ideas that were formulating but not official as a place to get direct and quick feedback.
When the former happens and suggestions are made, they have been instructed by me to put their proposals out in public. The latter happens by my choice, they do not have a hand in any decisions, they do not get to instruct on what should or should not be implemented, they are simply a good sounding board for ideas that would take from the distraction of this topic.
Furthermore, putting ideas out in public has a recorded history in game design of leading to people having pre conceived expectations of something "promised" to them, which may or may not come to fruition for a number of reasons. Similarly it also has lead to mass outcry and hysteria when ideas are floated that are in no way concrete or official, but are taken as if they were.
That this thread exists, and other threads like it throughout the overhaul, is to give everyone an opportunity to voice their thoughts and give feedback. Just because all feedback isn't acted upon does not mean that feedback is ignored. Consequently, while taking suggestions for the player base, as well as other admin, all decisions regarding the proposal that was submitted to and passed by Estarra were mine. The ideas may have been amended or adjusted due to well reasoned arguments, but the design and decisions were that of an administrative figure, not a collective of player representatives.
Claiming that such a scenario exists is not only counter productive to this discussion (and off topic) but it's completely incorrect.
My ideas for names of all the abilities. Left out the -woods, cause, you really don't want my tree puns. And I couldn't think of a good name/reason for the lobo fire resistance.
Aslaran
1 - Not a Tame Lion (nature regen)
25 - Warm Fur (cold resistance)
50 - Speed of Shanth (move faster)
100 - Pursuit
If it doesn't complicate coding too much I'd like to see humans keep the 'adaptable survivability' and 'evolution' traits by having their bonuses become dependant on the guild. An excellent way of doing this (Keeping experience bonus of course) would be to give, say, a Geomancer human a buff to excorable energy? Or whatever type is used most. Cold for Aquamancers, for example.
Additionally if we're getting rid of stats, may I suggest this be implemented then? Or something similar.
@Qistrel the "Tough Exterior" could maybe be differentiated a bit?
Like maybe "Strong Carapace" for Kephera(though it conflicts a little with their demi perk), "Bred Tough" for Viscanti, "Mottled Skin" for Orchlach... I can't think of something for Tae'dae (Protective Hide) or Dwarves (other than maybe "Clangoran skin")
Idk, Having them all the same reflects that they're the same buff which can be a bit more clear, but I kinda like the differentiation to reflect the source.
Comments
On a personal level, it makes me sad because of my regular characters, two were trill and one was faeling, and I'm so very fond of influencing. And trill don't even seem to be keeping their "naturally sexy" perk! Alas, my poor seduction influence, that I never used anyways. On the other hand, all three were chosen more or less for RP purposes anyways, so if anything, this is more validation.
I had a couple bonus thoughts.
-Newton Caverns
In my younger days, I made a good number of alts and ran them through Newton. I really have to say, the biggest influence race had was whether I could use FLY and cross Lake Lolliprin more easily. Granted, I didn't make poor choices, like Illithoid bards, or Viscanti anything. But I don't think "my experience could have potentially been substantially worse because I chose poorly" is a point in favor of stats. The main bashing skill, more than anything, affected how much enjoyment I had. By which I mean playing as a warrior sucked. (True story, the VERY first character I ever made was an Aslaran Paladin. A rat killed me. I quit Lusternia forever.)
-Expecting players to last
Let's say you're a newbie, and not just Shaddus pretending to be one. You pick Mag as your org, because you like Darkness. You pick Cacophony as your guild because you like Dethklok and Cacophony are clearly the most metal of all bards. You pick Illithoid as a race because you played D&D a couple of times and think mind flayers are really cool.
Are you really more likely to last because of a 7 charisma than because you have bonus poison resist that doesn't factor in at all until after newton?
Personally, I think allowing a newbie to play whatever race they choose without it being miserable is better for retention.
-Level 50
It's not hard. It wasn't even mid-game back in the day, when Newbie status expired at level 21. Now, when you get to be an UberNoob until 30? Level 50 would probably still be learning to play without training wheels. It's hardly "well into the game". Especially in a game with an experience curve like Lusternia.
-Lack of support for influencing
Removing a small amount of positive, and all of the negative, does not constitute a net loss. Certain races eventually getting an influence perk is not 'support' of influencing. Support of influencing is making it so your sweet-tongued Orchlach *can actually influence*. And I say this as someone maining two races who are slated to go from "great" to "average" at influencing!
-Random Lore concerns
it would be nice if every aspect of pre-OH mechanics and lore could be preserved, somehow. But it can't. We just have to take the good with the bad. Trill are losing Seduction boost, and this makes me sad even though Seduction is the red-headed stepchild of influencing. Stratas is no longer inherently attractive. On the plus side, he can finally go to Estelbar without furrikin constantly humping his leg.
BUT lore is also not mechanical. It's lore that Kephera form matriarchal hives. Currently this is supported by mechanics. It looks like after the OH it will not. Does that mean that Kephera will no longer form matriarchal hives? I hope they still do. If they don't, it's a failing of the playerbase, not the coding.
I can't help but think that many lore concerns would be alleviated by making the lore IG more robust. With the removal of stats and maluses, the Racial Help files will now have large amounts of free real estate. It could be populated with -more information-. Like, most racehelps seem to be history and physical description, basically. Maybe something about racial outlook, or general stereotypes that can be played with or against. Why are furrikin all bouncy? Why are Krokani predisposed to incest and murder? Maybe there should be Help files made up for the Sharded Gods, and the racehelps could refer to them, to give some background and history on the Divine the races come from, without having to read all of the Elder Books straight away just to figure out how to RP a Merian.
And honestly, the best "mechanical" change in support of lore might simply be making sure that every race has good racial emotes, and maybe putting THOSE in the racehelps.
-An actual question
Trill are going to have 1/10 regen in cloudy environments. Is this equivalent to their current "while flying" regen, in terms of location? I just flew around a few places in the Basin, Stairs of the Last Nine, Toronada River, Verasavir Valley. In each place, Survey Says environment conforms to whatever the ground type is, not cloudy (I don't even recall offhand where cloudy IS, other than maybe Hallifax and Aero demenses?) But my regen is definitely working.
Anyways, it all sounds exciting, and over all, I'm strongly supportive of this direction. Especially if it helps up the diversity of the basin. I'm sure Igasho RWHO gets pretty lonely.
A very good point about the unplayable combinations, which is a problem to address and can actively drive players out. However, we must be concerned with actively keeping them, not simply 'not driving them away'. People don't stay for a 'not bad' time. They stay for exciting and interesting times. That's my biggest issue with the resistance-heavy stats offered: Nothing really screams "I want to try that" until demigod. While noone will quit Lusternia in a frustrated huff, they will just quietly forget us and go play somewhere else. The system might be 'not broken' but it's not actively /fun/ either.
Also, the trill bonus you mentioned is a perfect example of a great bonus. It's not exactly powerful, but it gives you some sense of who trill are. It guides some RP, giving trill a little focus. Other nice bits like Dracnari basking are all perfect little perks.
Using the example of D&D, the newer editions did away with stat maluses altogether, focusing on positive definitions. The stat system we have does have a few suboptimal systems, but there are other ways to fix this. A rebalancing of which bonuses (speed) are too much and which maluses are too harsh is what is needed. The homogenous system.. well its not bad. Literally.. its active element seems to be 'being races because we need races, but avoiding anything unbalanced' at the cost of having anything fun.
Most of the unbalanced issues come from. A) Severe maluses (which may have not been recognized at the time)
I'm not sure how this sounds exciting to you. It's simple and somewhat elegant, but it lacks flash and allure.
Now, as for these concerns, as Shuyin has said, we've definitely moved forward with the first implementation and while there will be refinements that will happen, don't anticipate anything being fully stopped at this point in time.
Reading over the issues raised, it comes across to me that the main concern voiced is the problem that the races are balanced around the end goal rather than immediate gratification for newcomers. The game has traditionally taken this approach - inherent even in the skill system as folk learn from inept to trans in any of their skills. Nothing has ever been given completely as a push to work for benefits has always been central to a lot of Lusternia's mechanics.
If races received nothing at all at the beginning, I'd agree to a shortchanging of the newcomers, but this isn't the case. The fact that resistances are encountered first rather than a utility skill may be an issue, but one I feel to be shortsighted. While true that a cold resistance does not shine in Newton, it is a stepping stone to the overall development of a race.
A worry is voiced that while this overhaul does not actively push away newcomers, it doesn't do anything to keep them either. To this I reply that if the one point that a newcomer quits the game over is because of a shortcoming in one aspect of their gaming experience (that of racial skills) then it's a failure on the game as a whole since we've then had a shortage of either guild skills, guild roleplay, city perks, city roleplay, order perks, order roleplay, or racial roleplay that could have alleviated one (as of yet unseen) lack in the racial skill department.
This setup aims to make things better for the long haul. The elimination of outliers balances things for the future development of a character as they should no longer feel useless if they chose to play x-race as y-class. Removing this concern should help retain interested parties more, even if they don't encounter the initial flash of shiny skills when they first choose a given race.
As far as very very situational skills, there's a reason for a rewrite for the extremely niche perks like flying regen for Trills. Point blank, it does nothing for people to be regenerating in the skies since 95% of all action will be happening on the ground or trees level. While flavourful, time and again has shown that such mechanics that don't prove useful a majority of the time end up giving a race a perceived malus over other races who encounter perks in more common situations (cloudy terrain, for example).
This isn't to say I'm completely against tweaks in the early stages of racial development if they're warranted, of course. However, I would keep in mind a lot of the thoughts aired out in previous comments already: racial skills or mechanics do not define a race, but the history and lore do. Just because a trill no longer has a seduction influence bonus does not mean they're any less charismatic as a racial whole.
God, too much to write on the phone, but let me know if you have any questions.
Firstly, as noted, this system is currently being implemented and coded. Sweeping changes at this point are extremely unlikely to happen. This isn't because we're refusing to take feedback, but because our coder team is working hard to get the current design in, and changing things without live testing would be giving extra workload to people already putting in a great amount of effort. Without them this whole redesign would remain simply a concept, and they deserve a huge amount of credit in getting everything to work.
A: Pointless, as they're unnecessary at this stage in the game.
B: An extra level of information to take onboard, when the game can already be confusing and scary.
Granted, cold resistance is useless in Newton, almost all resistances are (although spectre island is a popular newbie area where cold benefits) but it's a passive that a new player doesn't have to think about, and doesn't have to take into account. This is a design concept that is mirrored in many modern games, you start off with basic abilities that require limited management, and as you grow you gain more powerful abilities to either replace or compliment your current skills.
Influencing is not ignored, no more or less than bashing is, I'm unsure as to how you think this is the case. With charisma gone, influencing is open to everyone (granted skill investment still applies) I'm not entirely sure of the exact details, in regards to how fast/slow it will be for people compared to now. The current formula uses your stats for attack calculations, either as a positive or negative modifier. You'll certainly be slower than a warbling Trill is, but you'll be faster than an Orclach or Illithoid are now. If the general values are too low in any attack, combat or influencing, we can adjust the base value to bring it into a level which is acceptable.
Furthermore there's the argument that most new players do not go for influencing, and instead prefer hunting to level up, which we've made easier. Alts who do choose to influence do not take any real length of time to reach 50, they're aware of the mechanics already and how best to utilise them.
If new players do not stick with Lusternia, there will likely to be other factors in play than finding their race boring. Those issues will be the ones we likely address, not overloading with more information and mechanics at level one.
Edit: Kephera do keep their matriarchal hives. They were redesigned into a perk for the Kephera race when Zenobia is empowered. This was mentioned on a previous page, just the actual details weren't released, same with Dark Reapers.
My curiosity over whether trill keep flying regen or not was simply that, curiosity. As a nublet trill, I made use of it from time to time, since I had it so why not, but it's never been a big thing. I have no qualms for it going, since even then there were so many ways to regen, and now there are likely more. I'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that these regen bonuses for the specialist races are designed to work with their respective demesnes, and this is just one of those disadvantages of being a spec race outside their home city. I also don't recall straight off where on prime is cloudy (Clarramore?). Them's the breaks. #Trill4Life.
As well, I believe these should indeed be up for envoy tweaks if needed. I think the -wood and Krokani powers are great, but I agree certain things like Lucidians and Igasho will likely need close scrutiny for awhile.
The -wood benefits are just problematic because they aren't very useful. For wildewoods at least, the 5p burst skills (hartpine, bluehorn, flowerpower) don't serve any tactical goal*, and having a modifier to Glinshari just makes it harder to balance that skill (which doesn't currently allow kills at max affs anyways). It can be handled later, however, as it doesn't create OP issues.
Aslaran - Player declares a target. When target tries to leave the room, player whines and begs them not to go.
Fink - So-so Marksman: Smart enough to use an aetherturret if trained. Still misses occasionally.
Furrikin - Squirm: Like writhe, but cuter.
Gnome - Novice Crewman: Likes to sit in the Captain's Chair when no one is looking. Can say "Make it so."
Igasho - Lift: Unusually good at moving large and bulky household items. Can carry extra bags at the grocery store.
Illithoid - Inner Maggot: While the inner worm is still developing, the Illithoid is prone to minor bouts of nausea. Non-debilitating, and easily ignored.
Merian - Leadership Training: Boosts positive feelings when people do way he says. Grows grumpy when not captain of a squad.
Orchlach - Stare Anxiously at Death: I mean, it's better when it happens to someone else, right? I don't know conglutination yet.
Tae'Dae - Bearhug: CAN ONLY BE USED TO HUG BEARS
Taurian - Tantrum: 10% chance on hit to throw a fit, with a 50% chance of cussing, and 50% chance of insulting a random target's mother.
Trill - ESCAPE!!: Runs around the room madly, flapping their arms in a blind panic.
Viscanti - Bad Breath: Like, liver and onions bad. Don't you floss?
Pale scales - finks are resistant to cold damage.
I don't smell anything - finks are resistant to asphyxiation damage.
Actually, just give orgs a way to restrict races, instead of how guilds do now, and race can be from beginning of Newton.
Im wondering if you originally mentioned and tagged me here to try and get me back to this discussion or some attempt at antagonizing or attempting to make a comment about me and make sure I read it.
Frankly no, I do not believe I am the "sole voice of reason", if anything the reason I was 'shouting so loud' was because I felt like once again myself and the other 'small guys' werent being heard compared to golden voices of certain envoys that seem to have a direct hotline with the admin and the decision-making process in...well everything. Until the envoys system is dismantled for a more universal system that allows all players to speak their voice (Yes lerad I know you were buddy buddy with your envoy and enjoyed talking skills while having sleep overs, but that isnt a balanced concept), then I never see Lusternia truly enhancing.
Edit:
Additionally, as for Gnome and Fink, if the current perks are going to stay then I would suggest they be changed from a 'purchasable' race to a 'quest' race, meaning a player could get the means to become a gnome or fink through the completion of a quest (Naturally would still need a dagger to reincarnate into one). I know it was said that the purchase race concept isnt for here, but just my 2 cents on the concept, because it -really- isnt worth 500 crs.
When the former happens and suggestions are made, they have been instructed by me to put their proposals out in public. The latter happens by my choice, they do not have a hand in any decisions, they do not get to instruct on what should or should not be implemented, they are simply a good sounding board for ideas that would take from the distraction of this topic.
Furthermore, putting ideas out in public has a recorded history in game design of leading to people having pre conceived expectations of something "promised" to them, which may or may not come to fruition for a number of reasons. Similarly it also has lead to mass outcry and hysteria when ideas are floated that are in no way concrete or official, but are taken as if they were.
That this thread exists, and other threads like it throughout the overhaul, is to give everyone an opportunity to voice their thoughts and give feedback. Just because all feedback isn't acted upon does not mean that feedback is ignored. Consequently, while taking suggestions for the player base, as well as other admin, all decisions regarding the proposal that was submitted to and passed by Estarra were mine. The ideas may have been amended or adjusted due to well reasoned arguments, but the design and decisions were that of an administrative figure, not a collective of player representatives.
Claiming that such a scenario exists is not only counter productive to this discussion (and off topic) but it's completely incorrect.
My ideas for names of all the abilities. Left out the -woods, cause, you really don't want my tree puns. And I couldn't think of a good name/reason for the lobo fire resistance.
Aslaran
1 - Not a Tame Lion (nature regen)
25 - Warm Fur (cold resistance)
50 - Speed of Shanth (move faster)
100 - Pursuit
Dracnari
1 - Firebreathing
1 - Psychedelic (psychic resistance)
25 - Fireproof (fire resistance)
50 - Firewalker (burning regen)
50 - Chaotic Affinity (damage buffs)
100 - Breath of Dracnoris
Dwarf
1 - Well Weathered (fire/cold resistance)
25 - Tough Hide (cutting/blunt resistance)
50 - Short But Sturdy (elemental movement resistance)
50 - Axelord
50 - Sociable Drinker (empower/seduction boosts)
100 - Guts of Steel
Elfen
1 - Strong Spirit (magic resistance)
25 - Superior Mind (psychic resistance)
50 - Forestwalker (forest regen)
50 - Natural Affinity (damage buffs)
100 - One With Nature
Faeling
1 - Faechild (divinus resistance)
25 - Faewinged (flight)
50 - Forestwalker (forest regen)
50 - Wyrden Affinity (damage buffs)
100 - One With Nature
Fink
1 - Scaled (cold resistance)
25 - Smelly (asphyxiation resistance)
50 - Cunning Little ... (dramatics boosts)
100 - Expert Marksman
Furrikin
1 - Warm Fur (cold resistance)
25 - Strong Spirit (magic resistance)
50 - Cute and Cuddly (charity/seduction boosts)
100 - Slippery Little ...
Gnome
1 - Immunized (poison resistance)
25 - Sparky (electrical resistance)
50 - Well-Travelled (village influence boost)
100 - Experienced Crewman
Human
1 - Blessing of Estarra (xp boost)
25 - City Slicker (urban regen)
50 - Survivalist (diag/firstaid speed, healer regen)
100 - Jack of All Trades
Igasho
1 - Warm Fur (cold resistance)
25 - Mountaineer (ability to scale)
50 - Insulated (warmth bonus)
50 - Blademaster
100 - Carry
Illithoid
1 - Mind Flayer (poison/psychic resistance) ? Not sure if it’s a trademarked name
25 - Soulless (excorable resistance)
50 - Deep Dweller (underground regen)
50 - Dark Martial Artists (chain/nekai)
100 - Inner Worm
Kephera
1 - Tough Hide (cutting/blunt resistance)
25 - Superior Mind (psychic resistance)
50 - Spelunker (underground regen)
50 - Martial Artists (tahto/shofa)
100 - Chitinous Hide
Krokani
1 - Thick-Skinned (blunt resistance)
25 - Strong Spirit (magic resistance)
50 - Eye of Krokano (no glance/observe balance)
50 - Bonecrusher
100 - Enhanced Vision
Loboshigaru
1 - Warm Fur (cold resistance)
25 - Fireproof (fire resistance)
50 - Best of Friends (empowering/paranoia boosts)
100 - Enhanced Regeneration
Lucidian
1 - Strong Spirit (magic resistance)
25 - Superior Mind (psychic resistance)
50 - Skywalker (cloud regen)
50 - Harmonic Affinity (damage buffs)
100 - Supercharged
Merian
1 - Scaled (cold resistance)
25 - Aquatic (breathe water, dive)
50 - Seafarer (water regen)
50 - Light Affinity (damage buffs)
100 - Natural Born Leader
Mugwump
1 - Keen Mind (mana regen)
25 - Amphibious (breathe water, leap)
50 - Just a Suggestion... (charity/empower boosts)
100 - Mental Superiority
Orclach
1 - Tough Hide (cutting/blunt resistance)
25 - Forbidding Spirit (magic/cold resistance)
50 - Presence of Urlach (corpse offering boost)
50 - Pureblade
100 - Embrace Death
Tae’dae
1 - Tough Hide (cutting/blunt resistance)
25 - but Warm-Hearted (poison/cold resistance)
50 - and Cheerful (ego regen)
50 - Order of Shallah (cavalier)
50 - Everybody’s Friend (charity/empower boosts)
100 - Bearhug!
Taurian
1 - Thick-Boned (cutting resistance)
25 - Well Grounded (electric resistance)
50 - Fast Healing (health regen)
100 - ENRAGE
Trill
1 - Feathered (cold/electric resistance)
25 - Expert Flier (flight)
50 - Skywalker (cloud regen)
50 - Harmonic Affinity (damage buffs)
100 - Ejection
Viscanti
1 - Tough Hide (cutting/blunt resistance)
25 - Immunized (poison resistance)
50 - Wastewalker (taint regen)
50 - Tainted Affinity (damage buffs)
100 - Poison Gas
I'll probably have to check that we won't get a lawsuit from Forgotten Realms, but I'll certainly make use of these.
Edit: oh for dracnari too