Phase II: Buff Overhaul

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  • Is there a measure of how much DMP = 1 level of Malus?

    I.E. Is it possible to negate a level 3 Malus with Tattoos?
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Allehnon said:

    Is there a measure of how much DMP = 1 level of Malus?

    I.E. Is it possible to negate a level 3 Malus with Tattoos?

    For now, 1 level of malus is about a 7% weakness.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • Ciaran said:

    Maligorn said:

    Yeah, I have to say, I looked at the first post regarding this buff system and my eyes completely glazed over. I thought the Overhaul was supposed to be simplifying things.


    No. The buff overhaul is meant to balance the crazy outliers in the current system.

    The problem with the outliers is base health more so then buffs, or at least buffs applying to large pools of health.
  • Steingrim said:

    Ciaran said:

    Maligorn said:

    Yeah, I have to say, I looked at the first post regarding this buff system and my eyes completely glazed over. I thought the Overhaul was supposed to be simplifying things.


    No. The buff overhaul is meant to balance the crazy outliers in the current system.

    The problem with the outliers is base health more so then buffs, or at least buffs applying to large pools of health.
    It's both! 
  • edited February 2015
    Eh. Thing is, there's a definite limit to the amount of pre-buff health you can get, and that's what everything was originally balanced around. At that point, people stack health buffs (warrior with Surge/throne/genies comes to mind which increases health by an absolutely insane amount). So I'd say the right path to take is to deal with buffs first and then look at the base health. I mean, even though some faelings can get their health up to 10k+, I'm still stuck at 4.2k.
    image
  • Shaddus said:

    Maybe I'm mistaken, but I could have sworn all this work was supposed to make it easier :(

    This
  • How is it not? Instead of balancing stuff around non-capped variables, they'll now be able to be balanced around capped variables. There'll be no complex calculations to figure out how much DMP you get (although that was fixed by bodyscan, it's still not immediately clear by how much extra DMP will affect you). Could the formula be simpler? Yes. But as it is, it's still not that hard... Start with the buffs with the lowest caps and then just sum them all up. And since it seems like most will start at a cap of 3, there won't be too many steps either.
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  • FYI, I gave the go-ahead for Roark to start the coding the 10 level system going by Xenthos' suggestion. Each level would be 3% (maxes out at 30%). Artifacts could go to 13 (maxes out at 39%).
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  • I suppose this goes here.

    This new system is now live, and I have a regen stack that I don't understand.

    **************************[ Bodyscan - Regeneration ]**************************
    Stat         Effect                                  Value   Max 
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Health       Mercy                                  2       6
    Health       Demigod                              3       8
    Health       Harmony of the body             6       10
    Health       Loboshigaru                          1       10
                   Total                                      9


    Should this not add up to 10? I don't want to go submitting bugs yet in case there's something I don't understand.
  • edited June 2015
    Hmm. Questions about these new resistance runes- first off, do two runes of the same type stack- If I grabbed 3 of the superior fire runes, would I be able to get 9/13 resistance- and do they apply returning and non-decay to armor that they're attached to, since it looks like they can be attached to armor?

    Also, about the resistances- is the resilience skill going to be a thing, still, or is it going away? I don't see it under bodyscan.
    I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
  • On the question of these runes, any chance the damage buff runes can attach to wonderwands? I only ever use a wand to hunt.

    Consider: you must wield the runed weapon for the damage buff to take effect, but you do not need to wield a wand to attack with it. I'll be running around with a sword in hand, but shooting blazing light from out of my pocket.
  • The regen numbers there do look a little off. It should be at 10, yeah.

    The runes don't stack, I think, is what the admin said. They do need to make it clearer in the explanations, I guess.

    No idea about the wand thing, I think the admin will clarify that in time - could send them a message or wait for them to respond here, I guess.

  • On the question of whether the runes stack, it doesn't say that they upgrade, which kind of suggests stacking, but only kind of.

    I'm sure a more detailed description will accompany their activation.
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spot
    edited June 2015
    Skye said:
    I suppose this goes here.

    This new system is now live, and I have a regen stack that I don't understand.

    **************************[ Bodyscan - Regeneration ]**************************
    Stat         Effect                                  Value   Max 
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Health       Mercy                                  2       6
    Health       Demigod                              3       8
    Health       Harmony of the body             6       10
    Health       Loboshigaru                          1       10
                   Total                                      9


    Should this not add up to 10? I don't want to go submitting bugs yet in case there's something I don't understand.
    As I understand it, your 3/8 and 2/6 defenses can't contribute beyond level 8 and 6 respectively. So let's say you add your 6/10 and your 3/8. You get all six levels from 6/10, but since 3/8 can't contribute to the total beyond level 8, you'll max out at 8/10. That final 1/10 you get for being lobo is what bumps you up to 9/10. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing Mercy isn't actually doing anything for you in this arrangement.
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
  • The mercy effect shouldn't contribute 6. It should only contribute 2.

    As I understand the system, it's as follows:

    You're at nuthin'.

    You got Mercy!

    If I'm less than 6, I can get as many as 2, but up to a total no greater than 6.

    I'm at nuthin'! I get 2!

    Now I'm at 2.

    You're a demi!

    If I'm less than 8, I can get as many as 3, but up to a total no greater than 8.

    I'm at 2. I get 3!

    Now I'm at 5.

    You're harmonious.

    If I'm less than 10, I can get as many as 6, but up to a total no greater than 10.

    I'm at 5! I get 6, except that puts me beyond limit. You only get 5.

    Now I'm at 10.

    You're a loboshigaru, but nobody cares!

    Should still be 10.
  • edited June 2015
    Is it possible for the coders to put in something that colours the buffs contributing green and the ones that are not red, so a person can more easily understand what is going on?

    So if you have 10 buffs, but the levels of them mean 3 of them are not actually helping are red and the other 7 are green.
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spot
    edited June 2015
    This is how Ieptix explained it, using an example that demonstrates how numbers that should add up to 5 actually add up to 4.

    Buff level X/Y works as follows: The specific buff adds X levels to the specific buff type (e.g. fire defense) up to a maximum of Y (for that specific defense); Y is NOT a global maximum for that defense. 

    Example:

    Three fire damage buffs, levels 1/1, 2/2, 2/5. At a glance, it looks like the result should be level 5 buff. However, the max limits on each buff lead to a level 4 buff instead: 1 level from the first buff (max of 1), 1 more from the second buff (even though the second buff gives two levels, it can only bring up to a level 2 - the fact that there's a 2/5 buff is irrelevant here), 2 from the 2/5 buff. If this were applied arbitrarily, it'd be possible to have it only be level 2 (apply the 2/5 buff first, and then the other two are redundant). However, it should be applied in the most beneficial order.
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
  • edited June 2015
    All that make sense to me, but in the example of my own regeneration, no buff was applied whose maximum was lower than what it was contributing until I hit 10.

    2/6
    3/8
    6/10
    1/10

    Start at 0.
    Add 2, can only bring as high as 6. Brings to 2.
    Add 3, can only bring as high as 8. Brings to 5.
    Add 6, can only bring as high as 10. Brings to 10.
    The last one doesn't matter.

    If I'm mistaken, I do want to understand, but it's reading to me that that combination should result in 10.

    I am operating under the assumption that the buffs are being applied in the order listed, which certainly looks like the "most beneficial" order.
  • Yeah, it should be applied in the most beneficial order. It's only in the case of something like a 1/3 and a 3/3, or a 2/3 and a 2/3 that you'd see the limits kick in. In the above case, it should have brought it to a total of 10. Probably a bug in the code somewhere - just bug it and provide the names of the defs, I think.

  • edited June 2015
    Skye said:
    All that make sense to me, but in the example of my own regeneration, no buff was applied whose maximum was lower than what it was contributing until I hit 10.

    2/6
    3/8
    6/10
    1/10

    Start at 0.
    Add 2, can only bring as high as 6. Brings to 2.
    Add 3, can only bring as high as 8. Brings to 5.
    Add 6, can only bring as high as 10. Brings to 10.
    The last one doesn't matter.

    If I'm mistaken, I do want to understand, but it's reading to me that that combination should result in 10.

    I am operating under the assumption that the buffs are being applied in the order listed, which certainly looks like the "most beneficial" order.
    I'm pretty sure they said somewhere you could go over your max but only your max would count for the buff itself. That you would have a 12/10 in this case. The overflow however would only matter in cases of when you have a malus.
  • Right, but in any event it should not read as 9. I don't have any listed malus.
  • edited June 2015
    Ayisdra said:

    I'm pretty sure they said somewhere you could go over your max but only your max would count for the buff itself. That you would have a 12/10 in this case. The overflow however would only matter in cases of when you have a malus.
    I am pretty sure that the overflow does not help you deal with a malus. If your positives add up, for instance, to 14/10, and you have a -10/-10, I am pretty sure you will end up with a total of 0. At least, that's what seemed to happen with regeneration when we turned on a musicbox today. And I also thought that was the idea... to prevent min/maxers from getting any benefit from min/maxing beyond a very strict threshold.
  • edited June 2015
    @Skye: As an aside, 6/10 Health regen from what I'm assuming is three Body-type Harmony mantras is bugged. The max for that particular bonus should be capped at 8, not 10.

    Some regens have been mistakenly set at max 10 instead of their respective proposals, but @Roark is getting around to fixing those up.
    image
  • I don't seem to be getting any bonus to my tattoos from being a monk. Is this intentional?

    Also, out of curiosity, what happens to resistance/buff tattoos that are less than 100 weight?
    image
  • edited June 2015
    Tattoos for buffs/resists that are less than 100 weight will likely have no effect. There will be changes to tattoo weights so they'll become 800 weight in total instead, but that is not yet coded in. Defensive tattoo bonuses for monks are also not yet coded in, but will be soon, probably.

  • The new buff/resistance runes have to go on clothing? I'm going to totally pimp my panties.
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink
    edited June 2015
    Something's off with tattoos...Ikini's 50 weight tattoos are giving her a 1/5 buff.

    Edit: Her 10 weight tattoo is also giving her a 1/5 buff. Heh.

  • Kalliste said:
    Ayisdra said:

    I'm pretty sure they said somewhere you could go over your max but only your max would count for the buff itself. That you would have a 12/10 in this case. The overflow however would only matter in cases of when you have a malus.
    I am pretty sure that the overflow does not help you deal with a malus. If your positives add up, for instance, to 14/10, and you have a -10/-10, I am pretty sure you will end up with a total of 0. At least, that's what seemed to happen with regeneration when we turned on a musicbox today. And I also thought that was the idea... to prevent min/maxers from getting any benefit from min/maxing beyond a very strict threshold.
    This is correct.

    Maluses are calculated after your buff is finalised, so that they operate at full effect and aren't simply overwritten by an excessive level of buffs.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    edited June 2015
    Nevermind! Clarified below.
    image
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    racial maluses are going away.

    I'm pretty sure they are refering just to regeneration maluses (like shadows stopping mana regen or musicboxes), in which case, it makes sense that the regen malus would be -10/-10 (but should probably be -13/-13 to account for the fancy regen runes)

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
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