Truth be told, while the idea of 'becoming an ascendant' which is perhaps the closest our mortal characters can get to divinity (*shakefist Ilyarin*) is nice in itself..I personally would rather not take it.
I enjoy competing in these games, and they have actually given me a renewed sense of fun in Lusternia, as I admit this is perhaps the first year I actually attempt to compete in them. I do not want that taken away frankly, and if I had won a seal this year, I would most definitely have tried to support someone else to take it.
Sorry for the inappropriate laughter. Couldn't help myself at this blowup of ridiculousness. Had to crash after working 9 hours on 2 hours of sleep, so I couldn't even log in to watch. But the tears are delicious even on the forums. Thanks, for a moment I thought I was gonna miss out on that this year.
I've posted on this before, and the arguments have not changed. There is absolutely zero reason to ban TAs from war.
1) The only reason to ban ANY player from any of the ascension events is for MECHANICAL reasons - it should be impossible for someone who cannot ascend to get a seal. That's the only acceptable reason for any kind of ban, and that's the reason why TAs are banned in all of the events (save war). Even in war, a full TA team is not acceptable, and will not be allowed to participate, for this reason.
2) The logic of the current argument in this thread (generally speaking, not just one person's) is simple - that winning ascension has some kind of snowballing effect on an org's chances of winning the next ascension. That is the reason why TAs should be banned from not just war, but also ascension. It is simply unfair to keep adding "powerspikes" to an org that with every subsequent ascension, they gain more of an advantage and lock out everyone from winning. There are two facets to this argument that is important to address:
Firstly, the less important one. Locking out others from winning is perfectly fine. Locking out others from participating is not. If the presence of two TAs in a war team mechanically forced another team to only have 2 people participating, then that's an unfair scenario and should be curbed. However, if a team is locking out the competition from winning by beating any and all comers, then there's absolutely nothing wrong - that's the definition of a competition, anyway, to beat any and all comers to become the best. If you're the best, you win.
Secondly, the more important one, which is less an argument on semantics than on the concept. Is it wrong for an org to keep winning? Is it wrong for people to have won to keep winning? Is there a moral argument to be made, is there an ethical decision to be made, that can (and should) otherwise flip the logic of the previous facet on its head, and impose a limit for the sake of "fairness"? As with all conceptual arguments, the answer is less black and white. But it boils down to this: is the rewards (in this case TA mechanics) that they won the only thing keeping them on top? If the answer is yes, then the argument leans toward there being a moral and ethical reasoning that can supersede the logical conclusions. However, if the answer is no, that position becomes undefendable very quickly. If the reason they "keep winning" is not due to the mechanics that they won the last time, then limiting them in any way becomes not "fairness", but "handicap". That is intrinsically unfair, not the other way around. If the reason a group, a team, or an org keeps winning at something is because the odds are stacked due to the rules, then the rules should be changed. If, however, it comes down to a matter of skill or experience, then to change it would be in fact, the unfair act.
Equality is not fairness. Even a communist like me knows this.
The argument can be pushed a little further on, though, toward even more moral grounds. Let's explore that a little too: Should limits be imposed, fairness be damned, in order to save the health of the game and to preserve the fun of the players? Yes, an argument can be made for this, for sure. Fairness in a competition can be sacrificed if it is in the interests of the majority, especially so in a game, where player-fun is paramount. To draw a parallel to the Olympics (because that popped up once or twice in the thread), this aspect is something where Lusternia ascension differs very much indeed from a sporting competition. Where fairness is the highest priority in Olympics, above even the fun of everyone participating, such is not neccesarily the case with a game like Lusternia. If a set of rules are causing problems with the health of the game, then it should be changed. Here, we even have precedents in Lusternia. Raid mechanics, domoth mechanics, conflict mechanics etc have been changed before, fair as they may have been (or not, as case may be), due to arguments that a large portion of the playerbase (or its representatives) agreed on - that said mechanics was causing a lot of grief to everyone involved. Is there such a situation with TAs in war, and more broadly, TAs in ascension?
Somehow, I feel the population problem is unrelated. But hey, if you want to make such an argument, it's definitely possible. Just don't forget of the gravity of your suggestions: any limits imposed as a result of such arguments will be sacrificing fairness to achieve your aims. Make no mistake, it is as far away as ensuring "fairness" for a competition as it can get. If you are taking on this moral argument for the good of Lusternia's game health, then you better hope that there really is a problem that TAs cause in the game's health. Otherwise, it will just end up being a selfish and self-serving argument.
You have some perverse notion that punishing success and rewarding failure (TA's can't compete ever again is punishment, people who lose can continue to compete as long as they don't win)
To bring the Olympics up again, lets say once you won a gold medal in your first or second olympic, you weren't ever able to compete in the olympics ever again. We get it, you're good at your sport, the best even, and you won, now let others do it, it's only fair.
The next time around the guy who gets silver wins the gold. Is he really the best? You don't know because he wasn't able to compete against the guy who won gold last time, because he was unequivocally forced to sit on the sideline and only train his buddy. Guess what loses it value really quick.
You're essentially saying that you want Avechna's goal to be getting the best war combatant in Lusternia unless you happen to be TA, then we'll take 2 or 3.
I have literally no doubt that Vadi makes substantial contributions to the team. I've said that several times. I know he's good, I know he's a fucking good melder, literally think he's a Blacktalon god or something (since I haven't seen him Pyro) but I still think that he should be separated from Shuyin and Synkarin to figure out something with a different team. If other teams had a longstanding TA in them, I'd say the same exact thing.
These two quotes contradict each other.
You can't say on one hand that we don't know Vadi isn't being carried because he teams up with Shuyin and myself, but on the other hand you're claiming he makes substantial contributions?
In the course of this discussion, you've gone from 'TA's should be able to compete in everything but War' to 'TA's should only be on the sidelines for all of Ascension.' Quite the swing in opinion.
All I can say now is read what I have to say and imagine I'm not biased -- because I literally don't have a stake in War (not that I won't root for Kelly-sempai) -- just the possibility of backing Ushaara's (or maybe even Kiradawea's) Ascension (at this point). It's seriously, 100% how I feel. I'm pouring out my thoughts and, excuse the fucking ham, heart into what I'm typing here.
I'm not just sitting around in my boxers thinking of "how can I piss off everyone today". Really, seriously.
Just think about what I've said is all I ask.
See, I come at it from the other way. I started reading what you wrote from the standpoint of "he's not biased," but the more you write, the more clear it becomes that you are.
Saying "I chose not to participate so I literally cannot be bitter!" is actually factually incorrect. If you chose not to participate because you didn't want to have to compete with people who are better fighters (the people you're trying to exclude), then it is indeed possible to be bitter... and this is the impression that suffuses your posts (though you've not actually said it, the entire premise of your argument is that you want to ban the people who are good at combat... so that people who are less-good can win).
Just... let it go. There's nothing mechanically unfair about letting TAs compete in this thing. Teams can be full of TAs / VAs / whatever the heck else they want to be. As long as someone on the team is capable of winning a Seal, it's within the rules. Let them have their fun.
Note that I'm saying this as someone who is extraordinarily unlikely to support Gaudiguch this year, given the city's political decisions in-game. I am a person who truly has no dog in this fight at all.
Yes, @Xenthos, I've let this argument go. Others have advised me to do so as well. At the end of the day, I am going to say GG WP. At the end of Ascension, no matter the outcome, I'm going to keep my head up high and fight the good fight (because let's be honest, Lusternia is my addiction).
Just have fun, everyone (literally everyone), and remember to use discretion.
EDIT: And now that that's out of the way, I can admit that I am pretty disgruntled that I didn't have the confidence to assemble my own team for War this year, and practice with them, and depend on them. That's on me and my anxiety issues. If I'd gotten my own chance to compete, and had gotten as soundly outplayed as Glevich/Azula/Kregarn were with that gust/gpent combo (I bet they even dropped a mono to prevent something like a saving grace empress), I wouldn't have gone bleeding all over the forums about it.
Well. I stopped reading this after a while, but will briefly comment regardless of what all else has been said:
Many people look forward to the Seal Events, particularly those that are competitively minded. The War Seal is, in my mind, what all heavily PK-invested players are looking forward to most (some might make a case for the ascension event, but it's always been so laggy and ridiculous I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with suggesting that).
Telling any of them they can't participate at all, regardless of the fact they cannot claim the Seal, really isn't a good method for encouraging them to stick around. It's bad policy for Lusternia to let anyone feel like they're "done" with the game.
It also brings up arguments for how else to keep the playing field "fair" for anyone who might want to drive them. Should someone be banned if their escrow value is too high, do artifacts like magic damage runes need to be disabled, etc? We already have a fair few seal events where we've gone out of the way to level the playing field as much as possible. With so much of the game's focus (and potential income) hinging on combat, it seems sensible to then leave the true combat event as open as feasibly possible.
Ascension as a whole doesn't cater well to the non-competitive crowd, but that's okay. It doesn't have to. It is, after all, expressly built around espousing as much competition as can be mustered once a RL year. As @Rivius suggested, some look to these events specifically for the chance to take a swing at the very worst the game can throw at them, and it would disappoint more than the people being barred simply because.
Learning to accept this is an important part of getting over TA pipedreams (I like to imagine everyone fantasises about it, no matter how improbable) and just rolling with ascension.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled Ascension Discussion.
Sometimes I feel very alone in not even caring about the credit prizes when I manage to show, heh.
2
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Honestly, all player vs player aspects of the game are already pay-to-win, so expecting Ascension to be different is naive at this point.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Now I know I swore off arguing for a bit, but I am definitely going to say absolutely not at the above. It does take a pretty high bar of inner strength to coordinate people during the chaos of the Ascension event with text only. It's Chaos challenge up to eleven.
Sorry for the inappropriate laughter. Couldn't help myself at this blowup of ridiculousness. Had to crash after working 9 hours on 2 hours of sleep, so I couldn't even log in to watch. But the tears are delicious even on the forums. Thanks, for a moment I thought I was gonna miss out on that this year.
Woah woah, I do not support the rich get richer. I would be content not to enter any of the events generally, but I want TA, and thus need a seal. I want it ONLY because of TA, I do not spam events for credits, nor do I think I am even allowed to enter most any event after having a seal other than war.
Steingrim doesn't have a seal, so I am entering. My usual team would be people who don't need seals, so I wouldn't have entered.
If Vadi has no intentional of TA, then don't run for it. Give it to Stein, or one of the other entrants.
War has become about gimmicks (it was a lot less gimicky the first one, but alas power creep and new classes and changes has moved away from this). Synkarin and Shuyin could be replaced with other people, the technique is the same as I have seen other teams do. Deathsong is currently the best setup, because it has the least prep and a 2s window to avoid, and anyone else helping can prevent that window.
I wouldn't mind seeing TA's banned from the contests, but I like to see good fights. I would rather ban cheese setups than ban people, because good fights are their own rewards. Last year we fought for like 30+ minutes, but eventually spammable tactics will work. That is the only let down I have found in the war seal, it has turned into spam mana kill or deathsong or such.
EDIT: Yes, I am saying if my old seal worked for ascension, I would stop entering for seals. Sadly, this also greatly increases possible people every year.
Other Note: I would rather see ascendant SKILLS banned in war. Aegis, Destro, Fearaura, etc are all bleh to fight for anyone without them, it only supports those who already have it.
Ixion's aura of weapons rebounding disappears. Chanting hoarsely, Ixion is suddenly engulfed in a blaze of dark fire, rising up from the ashes as a ghost. (x) 9280h|100%, 8942m|96%, 100e%, 7p, 95w%, 99e%, 8.83m (dk)- Shuyin begins to strain with a visible, disturbing longing. (x) 9280h|100%, 9017m|97%, 100e%, 7p, 95w%, 99e%, 8.83m (dk)- You have recovered equilibrium. (3.692s) (ex) 9280h|100%, 9017m|97%, 100e%, 7p, 95w%, 99e%, 8.83m (dk)- Muttering the secret names of Kether, you trace the glowing symbol of a spear before you. You cast the spear at the insubstantial form of Ixion. (x) 9280h|100%, 8922m|96%, 100e%, 8p, 95w%, 99e%, 8.83m (dk)-(-95m, 1.0%) Shuyin whips his translucent hands through the air, leaving trails of ethereal light through the air. You see a puff of light and hear a muted scream as the figure collapses in death. Ixion has been slain by Shuyin. An ebon nightmare watches Ixion's retreat to the ether, stamping its hooves in frustration. The Red Team has 1 members left.
Unfortunatly, @Rivius couldn't be here today and he was... the only person on our team with a viable kill method, @Sondayga and I are mostly hindermonkies with no real kill power.Oh well.
1) I did not get empressed! They entered, gusted out Glevich, radded out Kregarn, then dropped greatpentagram and locked me up in aeon under a deathsong. It was executed smooth and well, clearly a result of their practice, compared to our impromptu team, kudos to @Shuyin@Synkarin and @Vadi!
2) While I agree that having Ascendant opponents are daunting, perhaps one way to "balance" this is to meet halfway and allow a clause only 1 Ascendant per team in future War Challenges, to even out the powerspike. This allows Ascendants to still compete and "carry allies."
3) Thank you, @Glevich and @Kregarn for competing with me, I may have had to wake up in 2 in the morning, and even if we were defeated (and quite quickly too ), I appreciate that we relatively had a smooth run
#MorePowerLusternia #EnjoyAscension2015
That idea I feel I can be agreeable on, apart from my personal opinion of banning TA's period. (Gotta be able to meet halfway somewhere!)
I also applaud your team on the attempt too.
However, I do suggest that, if people intend on participating in war seals, they should be practicing months ahead of it and often with each other. From my observation, there was hardly any spars/duels/wargames as it should've been very frequent for it. I think some of the teams were put together last minute or maybe a day ahead? I just think that's not enough time to be fully prepared for what you are being thrown at.
Btw, I should probably turn off notifications for these, I come back to 127 notifications on this topic since the first war completion a few days ago, -bleh-
Deciding to teach Arcanis the ultimate lesson in manners, you point a finger imperiously at him and call the curse of the toad down upon his head. You watch in satisfaction as warts break out over his skin which then turns green and slimy. Finally, he shrinks and transforms into a large, ugly toad! With a telepathic sigh, a pooka tells you that he has lost control of Arcanis's actions.
In order to put the pathetic life of a warty toad out of its misery, you lift a foot and bring it down mightily on its bloated green body. A warty toad's back breaks under the weight of a heavy foot, its innards spilling out and leaving a messy stain on the ground. You have slain a warty toad. A warty toad wobbles about uncertainly and turns a pale shade of green before suddenly stretching and transforming into a demigod. Shaking his head, Arcanis stands before you where once there was a toad, looking slightly disoriented and perplexed with his tongue lolling out the side of his mouth. Arcanis drops the corpse of a pixie. Arcanis drops the corpse of a pixie. Arcanis drops the corpse of a pooka. Arcanis drops a stalk of faeleaf. Having been too much for the mortal threads of Arcanis, he screams in agony as flames engulf his body and burn it to a crisp. You tell Lord Fist Arcanis De'Unnero, Chosen of Wrath, "By the by, let that be a lesson in manners. I don't need friends to kill some of you one on one."
You're right though that practicing together will always pay off. Our team gets into shenanigans fairly frequently so we're very aware of our personal nuances.
Larvae are nothing. Watch Kelly solo the ice digger pits like a boss for a zillion points each!
(This is not the first ascension with icewynd.)
Why are people complaining about this now? Last year it was a Glomdoring member that did the same thing and when we were pointing out the issue everyone was saying we were whiners. Sorry, but being that I'm a tarotist right now, I certainly intend to give @Kelly a leg up with the icedigger pits if she so requires.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Larvae are nothing. Watch Kelly solo the ice digger pits like a boss for a zillion points each!
(This is not the first ascension with icewynd.)
Why are people complaining about this now? Last year it was a Glomdoring member that did the same thing and when we were pointing out the issue everyone was saying we were whiners. Sorry, but being that I'm a tarotist right now, I certainly intend to give Kelly a leg up with the icedigger pits if she so requires.
Admittedly I wasnt here for that last ascension, but I find it interesting these pits can garner so many points.
----------------------
Turning to the Life event, HELP CURELIST has yet to be updated and WHATCURES <aff> is still registered on the old database, so this should be a rather interestingly confused event.
I believe something along the lines of 200 points per pit. Given that you can do them uninterrupted, i.e. be locked in there with the only way to access the location being teleport.... yeaaaaah.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Comments
I enjoy competing in these games, and they have actually given me a renewed sense of fun in Lusternia, as I admit this is perhaps the first year I actually attempt to compete in them. I do not want that taken away frankly, and if I had won a seal this year, I would most definitely have tried to support someone else to take it.
Saying "I chose not to participate so I literally cannot be bitter!" is actually factually incorrect. If you chose not to participate because you didn't want to have to compete with people who are better fighters (the people you're trying to exclude), then it is indeed possible to be bitter... and this is the impression that suffuses your posts (though you've not actually said it, the entire premise of your argument is that you want to ban the people who are good at combat... so that people who are less-good can win).
Just... let it go. There's nothing mechanically unfair about letting TAs compete in this thing. Teams can be full of TAs / VAs / whatever the heck else they want to be. As long as someone on the team is capable of winning a Seal, it's within the rules. Let them have their fun.
Note that I'm saying this as someone who is extraordinarily unlikely to support Gaudiguch this year, given the city's political decisions in-game. I am a person who truly has no dog in this fight at all.
I don't really see any issue. There are plenty of strong team compositions out there. You just have to find them. TA or not....
Thats how I see it. But don't take my word for it. I suck.
Just have fun, everyone (literally everyone), and remember to use discretion.
EDIT: And now that that's out of the way, I can admit that I am pretty disgruntled that I didn't have the confidence to assemble my own team for War this year, and practice with them, and depend on them. That's on me and my anxiety issues. If I'd gotten my own chance to compete, and had gotten as soundly outplayed as Glevich/Azula/Kregarn were with that gust/gpent combo (I bet they even dropped a mono to prevent something like a saving grace empress), I wouldn't have gone bleeding all over the forums about it.
Sorry about that.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
Don't become TA, it's a trap!
3 vs 3 Arena battle
1 vs 1 Solo battle
1 vs 1 Jousting
Chanting hoarsely, Ixion is suddenly engulfed in a blaze of dark fire, rising up from the ashes as a ghost.
(x) 9280h|100%, 8942m|96%, 100e%, 7p, 95w%, 99e%, 8.83m (dk)-
Shuyin begins to strain with a visible, disturbing longing.
(x) 9280h|100%, 9017m|97%, 100e%, 7p, 95w%, 99e%, 8.83m (dk)-
You have recovered equilibrium. (3.692s)
(ex) 9280h|100%, 9017m|97%, 100e%, 7p, 95w%, 99e%, 8.83m (dk)-
Muttering the secret names of Kether, you trace the glowing symbol of a spear before you. You cast the spear at the insubstantial form of Ixion.
(x) 9280h|100%, 8922m|96%, 100e%, 8p, 95w%, 99e%, 8.83m (dk)-(-95m, 1.0%)
Shuyin whips his translucent hands through the air, leaving trails of ethereal light through the air.
You see a puff of light and hear a muted scream as the figure collapses in death.
Ixion has been slain by Shuyin.
An ebon nightmare watches Ixion's retreat to the ether, stamping its hooves in frustration.
The Red Team has 1 members left.
That idea I feel I can be agreeable on, apart from my personal opinion of banning TA's period. (Gotta be able to meet halfway somewhere!)
I also applaud your team on the attempt too.
However, I do suggest that, if people intend on participating in war seals, they should be practicing months ahead of it and often with each other. From my observation, there was hardly any spars/duels/wargames as it should've been very frequent for it. I think some of the teams were put together last minute or maybe a day ahead? I just think that's not enough time to be fully prepared for what you are being thrown at.
Btw, I should probably turn off notifications for these, I come back to 127 notifications on this topic since the first war completion a few days ago, -bleh-
call the curse of the toad down upon his head. You watch in satisfaction as warts break out over his
skin which then turns green and slimy. Finally, he shrinks and transforms into a large, ugly toad!
With a telepathic sigh, a pooka tells you that he has lost control of Arcanis's actions.
In order to put the pathetic life of a warty toad out of its misery, you lift a foot and bring it
down mightily on its bloated green body.
A warty toad's back breaks under the weight of a heavy foot, its innards spilling out and leaving a
messy stain on the ground.
You have slain a warty toad.
A warty toad wobbles about uncertainly and turns a pale shade of green before suddenly stretching
and transforming into a demigod. Shaking his head, Arcanis stands before you where once there was a
toad, looking slightly disoriented and perplexed with his tongue lolling out the side of his mouth.
Arcanis drops the corpse of a pixie.
Arcanis drops the corpse of a pixie.
Arcanis drops the corpse of a pooka.
Arcanis drops a stalk of faeleaf.
Having been too much for the mortal threads of Arcanis, he screams in agony as flames engulf his
body and burn it to a crisp.
You tell Lord Fist Arcanis De'Unnero, Chosen of Wrath, "By the by, let that be a lesson in manners.
I don't need friends to kill some of you one on one."
You're right though that practicing together will always pay off. Our team gets into shenanigans fairly frequently so we're very aware of our personal nuances.
Grief together, stay together.
(This is not the first ascension with icewynd.)
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Admittedly I wasnt here for that last ascension, but I find it interesting these pits can garner so many points.
----------------------
Turning to the Life event, HELP CURELIST has yet to be updated and WHATCURES <aff> is still registered on the old database, so this should be a rather interestingly confused event.
Edit: Nevermind, there's still AFFS.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.