Ascension 2015

Leolamins

Question for admin and place for the following discussion/oppinions. Are the rules this year still the same as HELP ASCENSION RULES or should we expect changes?

Saesh

They are the same unless otherwise announced!

Steingrim

Leolamins said:

Question for admin and place for the following discussion/oppinions. Are the rules this year still the same as HELP ASCENSION RULES or should we expect changes?

The same unless otherwise announced, or changed at the last minute, and activate doesn't for some reason doesn't mean using a command to start an ability.

Shuyin

Any chance for something new with each event

Saesh

Not my call, but if you'd like to see different things I suggest posting specific (realistic) ideas here!

Shaddus

For Justice, we should just flip coins.

Aerotan

Tiering Vengeance tourneys? 

Like, take the winners from a game and throw them into a new game until you only have a reasonably small number of team members left, then have those remaining pick which one gets the seal à la War?

Feyda

So how is Life going to work? Will certain afflictions changed by the overhaul (up to the date) be removed, or their old cures be re-enabled for the event?

Specifically thinking about slush/salve afflictions -- stupidity using slush, addiction being removed, etc.

Ciaran

Will the ascension event be just as laggy as it always was, or has/will something be done to mitigate it? (One suggestion, increase strength of spawns, decrease number)

Shuyin

I always thought it'd be cool if the ascension event was a mix of all events so far.

Like you still need to hold onto the staff but depending on the current configuration of the sphere, you can only score points via influence/pk/bashing/debate/etc on that sphere.

Have this configuration fluctuate every so often for maximum fun. If you don't like the current configuration, move to a different sphere.

We can also reduce mobs and increase strength to help reduce lag like ciaran suggested but I'd be down with deleting them. All they do is break the economy

Synkarin

As far as kethbit spawns go, they could really be eliminated.

They mostly cause a lot of lag and don't provide much challenge. Sealbearers instazap them so it's not really a challenge that needs avoiding. 

Only issue I see with a rotating mix of events is the insanity from the staff. Influencing something after holding on to the Staff for 50 minutes would be damn near impossible.

Shuyin

Then you move to a chaos sphere which will work like the current staff event!

Synkarin

Moving in general is damn near impossible

Kaimanahi

I had a draft envoy report up to change some of the Chaos/Final Ascension aspects to be less mob-intensive, but Ieptix said that it wasn't the added item count that was causing the lag. It's sort of difficult to pinpoint the issue when it's once a year.

Elanorwen

Kelly said:

I had a draft envoy report up to change some of the Chaos/Final Ascension aspects to be less mob-intensive, but Ieptix said that it wasn't the added item count that was causing the lag. It's sort of difficult to pinpoint the issue when it's once a year.

Get 30 people in a meld and enemy them to it, have them hit, see if lag happens. That's really the only thing I've noticed as far as lag goes... everything is going fine until the point a meld hits and then you can't cure out of it at all. I could, of course, be wrong... but it's a possibility.

Synkarin

The lag issue has come up several times in other events as well. 

When we were satisfying @Zyphora's bloodlust killing the star-crossed lovers, we hit the same kind of lag as during ascension. Is it possible that throwing lots of gmcp vitals lines as well as adding/removing afflictions from a bunch of people all at once.

Ciaran

I don't know what we can do to help deal with the lag monster. But if there's anything, any off the wall ideas for testing/figuring out what may be causing it.... I feel like we should do that.  The last few ascensions have been personally extremely frustrating due to all of the lag.

Aerotan

Ciaran said:

I don't know what we can do to help deal with the lag monster. But if there's anything, any off the wall ideas for testing/figuring out what may be causing it.... I feel like we should do that.  The last few ascensions have been personally extremely frustrating due to all of the lag.

Everyone, just let whoever gets Beauty take the ascension. No fight, no lag! =D #sarcasm

More seriously, I don't think I've ever even been logged in during ascension, except once when I logged in to check messages and got froze by the end-of-event world-silence.

Kaimanahi

I brought this up to @Ieptix asking if we could run some tests, and I think he was going to ask @Estarra. As Elanorwen said, I would also wonder if melds were the cause of the lag, or maybe some of the other passive effects (shrine healing, avatar exalt) that people stack to the max during these events.

Steingrim

Kelly said:

I brought this up to @Ieptix asking if we could run some tests, and I think he was going to ask @Estarra. As Elanorwen said, I would also wonder if melds were the cause of the lag, or maybe some of the other passive effects (shrine healing, avatar exalt) that people stack to the max during these events.

I would suggest looking at the insanity mechs. I would suspect that if the insanity tells are regened on each call that might add to the lag. Cutting down insanity ticks, reducing atmospherics, that sort of thing. Probably not much can be done about GMCP or room looks, which in most games is are intensive operations.

Tylwyth

So is the Staff an object?

Can only trial/challenge winners effect it at all?

Could a potentia- Ascendant/dreamweaver Envelope it?

Shaddus

Tylwyth said:

So is the Staff an object?

Can only trial/challenge winners effect it at all?

Could a potentia- Ascendant/dreamweaver Envelope it?
----
Yes
I think anyone can get it, but it only gives points if someone who is a seal holder can get points from it.
Possibly, but I don't think you can go out of phase with it. It would likely just bounce to a random room

Akyaevin

Only Sealholders can carry it. Anyone else who tries ... either it relocates or drops or just can't be done. Not sure which. Generally if someone gets the Staff they're not experimenting with it.

Delphas

I truly don't know where the Good Ground lies with respect to Justice, @Saesh.  My everyday status is 90% better than everyone else's when it comes to debating (and Delphas is a racial Mag w/o racehat/cameo/truefavour/avatar/domoth bonus), but 95% have better access to pre-planned preparedness than I do and consider the last two Justice events were Astrologically maligned with respect to Magnagora.  I simply don't know where ``fair'' is (perhaps ``wrong thread, @Delphas!'' ?).  If this were a revolt? I'd Papaxi the heck out of everyone (no need to check birthsign, since all are negative) and then either Lion sphere myself or them (depending on Father Sun).  I don't need to ``prepare'' them with FASTTALK since I'm pretty good at what I do, but it does help.  Finally, if I'm on the ball, I'll remember to goose my CURING AUTOHEAL E from the usual 39 to a respectable 79.  What do I do to prepare for Justice? Well... errr.. I just check my CURING AUTOHEAL.  What does this mean? Well, it means the Warbling Trill get an immediate advantage.  The last two Justice events also gave the Serenwilders one hell of an advantage.  Finally, just from IRE-sanctioned pogroms, New Celest, Gaudiguch, and Glomdoring received a racial advantage.  Now, to be sure, no one single nation received THE advantage, but as near as the math can tell, Magnagora received the ONLY disadvantage.

If we're going to allow debates, then allow the full course.  Full guild-skills and full effects.  Let them Papaxi me, and let me Laetitia myself.  Do we really hamper War challenges with ``No, you cannot use Ninthugi'' or ``Sorry, but AmputateArm is completely out'' ? War is not perfectly mano-a-mano (teams of three, the last time I checked), but the present rules for Justice is ``solo.. with one hand tied behind your balls... if you're lucky'' (the last time I checked as well).

Sorry.  I shouldn't be so uncharacteristically undiplomatic, but the current HELP ASCENSION RULES scroll means I'm going from a 90% ``yeah, I got this'' to a 99% ``Sorry, but I'm Mag'', but I could be mistaken.  I'd rather help than plaintively complain, so how can I best contribute to this system? Maybe if I knew the reasoning behind then current rules I might be able to help find a path which is more inclusive and at the same time less deterministic? It could also be possible that I'll come to understand the current thinking is most correct and ought not be changed.  In either event, I'd rather not view my upcoming participation with forlorn dread.

I just think my chances at the upcoming Justice event ought to be gauged by history during Revolts, but the present rules indicate otherwise.  My character hasn't improved much since the last Justice event (merely my own player-confidence), but I ought to compete.  If I don't then who will?

I could very well be completely off-base here (I've limited experience), and so I'd love to hear from the other nations on their thoughts.  I just want something uniform.  If it's a matter of giving everyone the ``short end'' of the proverbial ``stick'' then so be it; we can all adjust, adapt, and overcome.  If everything is perfect the way it is (say Mag actually has an advantage in everything else!) then of course I'll bow out and apologize for raising such a ruckus.

I beat the odds with careful planning because I had to work ``up-hill'' during the day-to-day revolts, but the annual Justice event seems to be a ``nope, don't care how good you've become through practice/study/dedication'' sort of event.  25 Charisma?!?!? How the Nil does anyone get one of those to start with, let alone 25 of them?!? I don't mean to be a whiney ass.  I'm sure if you can explain the reasoning behind the current Justice rules then I'll be right on-board.

Thank you.

Lerad

Limiting non common skills is an absolute must-have for Justice. Things like penumbra would heavily skew the competition otherwise, because mechanically, non Gloms cannot get penumbra even if Glom was willing to give it out. It just simply is not possible. Impossible. Unpossible. Literally, cannot be done. Similarly for the other non common skill abilities.

Justice cannot be compared to revolts. In the other thread about Justice, I mentioned this - revolts are revolts, debates are debates. Debates in revolts are different from debates during Justice.

In Justice, you cannot run, you cannot have an ego healer, it's 1v1 with increasingly large ego-hits every round. There is no comparison to "training" for debating in revolts to the Justice event. The two are entirely different contests.

Preparation for Justice debate does not just boil down to 25 charisma. Yes, warbling trills and shadowsinger faeling get a huge advantage because charisma plays such an important role. But as the argument has been hashed out again and again, charisma alone does not decide the win.

All that said, if the admin were to disallow racial specialisations, in addition to disallowing non-common skill abilities, then that would even the ground a little more, yes. Because racial specs are tied to orgs, they can also fall under a similar argument as non-common skillset abilities. It is literally impossible, unpossible (etc) for a non Glom to be a shadowsinger.

However, allowing non-common skillset abilities is absolutely out of the question. No way.

Lavinya

Make it a real test of skill and give everyone the same charisma going in. Then the argument is moot!

Is there a full list typed out somewhere detailing all the skills that are disallowed, for clarity sake? I've changed class since last year and would appreciate the reminder, since most of my defs I let my system deal with and don't stop and consider what they are doing (and I'm sure I'm not alone >_>)

Aerotan

IIRC, If it's a defense, it's not Netzach, Charismaticaura, Beauty blessing, or Beauty Enchantment, and it's not a dramatics attitude, then it's probably either banned or wouldn't help anyway. And I'm not sure about the ones I mentioned. >.>

Elanorwen

Lerad said:

All that said, if the admin were to disallow racial specialisations, in addition to disallowing non-common skill abilities, then that would even the ground a little more, yes. Because racial specs are tied to orgs, they can also fall under a similar argument as non-common skillset abilities. It is literally impossible, unpossible (etc) for a non Glom to be a shadowsinger.

Actually, that is incorrect. You can be a warbling trill without being in Hallifax. All it takes is classflex permission in Symphonium and learning the music specialization. (Or even being a rogue symphonium and a trill)

Saesh

I've always supported the argument that mechanics shouldn't be put in place to nullify choices made simply because those choices become temporarily inconvenient. There's a degree of wiggle room here regarding the restrictions on buffs during Justice because I understand the need to not turn everything into a min/max race, but ultimately race, organization, and guild are choices you all have made with consequences and perks of varying degrees across the board. Is playing in Mag the "short end of the stick," when it comes to Justice. The argument can certainly be made, as can the argument that Geomancers are better off than Aquamancers (not saying I believe this one way or the other), thus getting the short end of the stick in War. Arguments regarding who has the short end of any particular stick could be made on a seemingly infinite number of topics. 

Ultimately, someone is going to have an advantage, be it through race, artifacts, skills, etc. There are many places you can draw the line so that the competition can be normalized, but I believe in drawing that line as conservatively as possible. The line between skills and buffs is sometimes slimmer or more blurry than we give it credit for. A general rule of thumb, for me, is that it's unfair if an unbuffed player can't realistically overcome a buffed player. If an unbuffed player can realistically beat a buffed player, accounting for skill, RNG, and whatever else, I don't see a reason to change it. 

Ssaliss

Lavinya said:

Make it a real test of skill and give everyone the same charisma going in. Then the argument is moot!

Is there a full list typed out somewhere detailing all the skills that are disallowed, for clarity sake? I've changed class since last year and would appreciate the reminder, since most of my defs I let my system deal with and don't stop and consider what they are doing (and I'm sure I'm not alone >_>)

I think the general rule of thumb is: If it affects charisma, it's acceptable, but if it gives ego regen, it's not. That's why Penumbra (which apparently gives a mininal ego regen) isn't allowed.

Elanorwen

@Delphas - it is not impossible to win with lower charisma. Granted, the last champion of Justice was a warbling trill, I'm pretty sure the other finalist was an unspecced faeling. I tried my hand at it (As a caster lucidian, which isn't great charisma either) and still went decently far along with the event. In the end, certain events are geared toward certain races/classes/etc. You can't realistically expect to throw a level 60 faeling in War and win either, and the amount of preparation that goes into the Death challenge can be pretty horrifying, too... never mind that going at Death as a faeling researcher can be pretty suicidal too, considering that you want to be murdering the tough critters if you're going to have a chance. (Never mind improved chances through having destruction there)

All in all, it is not the only event that is skewed in some fashion, be it by racial or class choice. In this particular situation, it is skewed against the one thing you believe you are good at... but if you're really that good at debating, then charisma shouldn't be a deterrent. If you get only good hits and your opponent gets only bad hits, you will still win.