Add guild novice permissions to members of a guild beyond a certain rank. It is quite confusing that a GR19 can't advance novices, but a GR3 undersec can. Probably at a rank that also allows them to check guild skills/guild inventory/guild score.
I can only half-way agree with the above. While in some of the less populous guilds this may be extremely useful, the purpose of the GA (and their Undersecretaries) is to decide such advancement as appropriate. It currently stands as an implicit authority for all Secretaries and Undersecretaries, so this would rather diminish their purpose. Perhaps, if this is something people consider necessary, it might be be better to also expose it as an explicit authority (like ClassFlex or Newsboard permissions) controlled by the GA? 1) The GA can set the GUILD ADVANCE to a specific rank, meaning all of that rank or higher (Secretaries and Undersecretaries can always do it) can invoke GUILD ADVANCE, similar to newsboard access. 2) The GA can grant/revoke this permission to specific individuals (Secretaries and Undersecretaries can always do it), similar to GUILD CLASSFLEX. 3) Leave things as they are.
I'm happy with #3.
</RANT>
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Or make the GR19 person an Undersecretary.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
This idea was made under the assumption that there is no GA available at the time of this particular situation. As such, no new undersecs can be made and no-one is there to give people advance capabilities. Being that score, inventory and skills can all be checked past a certain guild rank, I don't see why a high enough rank shouldn't be able to advance, too. It does not make undersec/sec positions useless because it would be a high enough rank, probably somewhere along the lines of GR10+, not GR3 which is when you want to start appointing people as undersecs anyway.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Not having a GA is a problem of its own. And not having enough Undersecs means the GA before that didn't do their job.
But, seriously, the only purpose of Undersecs is advancement. What do you propose that should be replaced with if it's tied to GR instead of a position?
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
If you have GR19s but no GA...sounds like someone should be contesting before looking for mechanic changes. Unless I misunderstood, but then I'd imagine most GAs and GMs would respect those that came before and give them undersec/secretary positions anyway (presuming they're active and playing I suppose).
This idea was made under the assumption that there is no GA available at the time of this particular situation. As such, no new undersecs can be made and no-one is there to give people advance capabilities. Being that score, inventory and skills can all be checked past a certain guild rank, I don't see why a high enough rank shouldn't be able to advance, too. It does not make undersec/sec positions useless because it would be a high enough rank, probably somewhere along the lines of GR10+, not GR3 which is when you want to start appointing people as undersecs anyway.
I find it hard to believe there are only TWO people in your guild, and furthermore the root of the problem (as you state it now) is lack of GA rather than lack of available Undersecretaries. Maybe you should elect a new GA and see how that goes for you? Maybe that will improve matters.
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Which guild are we talking about? The Aeromancers have an active GA and 5 Undersecs.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
This idea was made under the assumption that there is no GA available at the time of this particular situation. As such, no new undersecs can be made and no-one is there to give people advance capabilities. Being that score, inventory and skills can all be checked past a certain guild rank, I don't see why a high enough rank shouldn't be able to advance, too. It does not make undersec/sec positions useless because it would be a high enough rank, probably somewhere along the lines of GR10+, not GR3 which is when you want to start appointing people as undersecs anyway.
I find it hard to believe there are only TWO people in your guild, and furthermore the root of the problem (as you state it now) is lack of GA rather than lack of available Undersecretaries. Maybe you should elect a new GA and see how that goes for you? Maybe that will improve matters.
Being that I have a friend who recently decided to give Lusternia another go and then swapped guilds... and has been waiting for 3 days or so to catch someone to give an interview... yeah, I'm sure she's very happy with the wait. There are only two active undersecs from what I've seen of the people that are in undersecs and have spotted online. Out of those two, neither is in the same zone as my friend. GG, I guess? Also, the job being done by a GR10+ is not that big a deal now, is it? It's not like every GR19 will just jump down an undersec's throat and take over now, would they?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I have seen Cacophonites wait even longer w/o ill effect, but the Cacophony has always valued their novices far and above considering them mundane nuisance. I have seen Ninjakari advance by correspondence, and their guild was strengthened. I feel your frustration, but before you petition the Fates to strip me of my power, maybe you should petition your own leadership to 1) learn to read and write, 2) perform the task if they can, 3) resign if they cannot perform the task, 4) reach out via MSG and the post to any and all who might appear to join in the logs, 5) maintain the topical guild scroll, 6) advertise on the newsboard normal regular days and times, 7) regularly speak over the guild aether, 8) often address the guild and city via oration or ritual or sermon or lecture, 9) assist a novice of ANY guild, 10) recall the time when you were a novice forefront in mind.
I regularly do all this. I did all of it in just the last few days, most of it thus far today alone, and will fill out the rest before going to bed. The misuse of a tool does not deny the proper use of same.
I have seen Cacophonites wait even longer w/o ill effect, but the Cacophony has always valued their novices far and above considering them mundane nuisance. I have seen Ninjakari advance by correspondence, and their guild was strengthened. I feel your frustration, but before you petition the Fates to strip me of my power, maybe you should petition your own leadership to 1) learn to read and write, 2) perform the task if they can, 3) resign if they cannot perform the task, 4) reach out via MSG and the post to any and all who might appear to join in the logs, 5) maintain the topical guild scroll, 6) advertise on the newsboard normal regular days and times, 7) regularly speak over the guild aether, 8) often address the guild and city via oration or ritual or sermon or lecture, 9) assist a novice of ANY guild, 10) recall the time when you were a novice forefront in mind.
I regularly do all this. I did all of it in just the last few days, most of it thus far today alone, and will fill out the rest before going to bed. The misuse of a tool does not deny the proper use of same.
When in this whole freaking conversations have I ever once mentioned Aeromancers or Hallifax. I'm intentionally not saying the guild or organization name because they should know who they are... and should know that the way they're doing things might not be the best way to handle the situation. Do not assume. I have told my friend all I can, but she's quickly losing interest considering she's sitting on two no-brainer packages and has nothing to spend them on with 2 hours of online time per day. I can't advance her, I'm not even in the same organization, let alone in the same guild/covenant. I can't do the one thing that might keep her interest. Now, before we go on an assumption spree, because yes... I'm quite active in the Aeros, and I'm also an undersec and can advance novices should they require it... even if I tend to keep quiet, do please stop thinking that it is the Aeromancers I'm talking about, kthxbai.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Or...instead of being a condescending douche about it, let guild leaders guide novices like they're supposed to.
There's a reason why GR19 tends to sound like "in the Tainted Council of Geomagi".
It's because they all have at least some interest in novices and the guild. Former Champions aren't just buff ass PKers, even if they are; they're also the teachers of their guild's up and coming combatants.
Former Guildmasters probably still give a damn too. Anyone who makes it to the gr19 position should be given basic freedom to move novices around. That's the point of a GA having Undersecretaries and Secretaries -- to tend to that while they work on structuring the guild and its ranking process/settling inner disputes/looking for new RP/buying perks.
You know, namedropping the guild name to me in a message could alleviate your friend's wait. Just saying.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
. I feel your frustration, but before you petition the Fates to strip me of my power
Are you shitting me?
No, no I am not.
</RANT>
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
If there's no GA, AND not enough Undersecs, AND the advancement can only happen after a formal, face-to-face interview, that is not a mechanical problem--that's a guild problem that the players have created and brought on themselves.
Though, I'm confused about the situation... novice times are set times. Eventually, the person will "graduate", all on their own, to GR1 if they wait around long enough. After that, anyone in the guild with favouring privs can advance them in rank. So, mechanically, the person isn't stuck anywhere because of a lack of Undersecs. If they can't advance any farther because the guild has said they cannot advance farther without explicit player input, it's not the mechanics that need to change--it's the guild.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
If there's no GA, AND not enough Undersecs, AND the advancement can only happen after a formal, face-to-face interview, that is not a mechanical problem--that's a guild problem that the players have created and brought on themselves.
Though, I'm confused about the situation... novice times are set times. Eventually, the person will "graduate", all on their own, to GR1 if they wait around long enough. After that, anyone in the guild with favouring privs can advance them in rank. So, mechanically, the person isn't stuck anywhere because of a lack of Undersecs. If they can't advance any farther because the guild has said they cannot advance farther without explicit player input, it's not the mechanics that need to change--it's the guild.
I personally fail to see why this is such a big deal. How many active GR19s do you have that do not have undersec permissions anyway? 10? 50? I doubt it's more than two, and I doubt any of them that didn't elect to be undersecs are jumping at Novices to advance them and taking over the GA's job. Now, give me a number of people beyond GR10 (but under GR19) in your guild that are active and do not have undersec/sec permissions? Oh, it's less than 1? So you see, there is no problem. As to advancement, yes, it will happen... but anyone that is interested in learning their guild skills and diving into working out an effective offensive strategy, i.e. a PvP-er would rather just advance out of Novice and be done with it as opposed to sitting there and waiting for an arbitrary amount of time before advancing, even more so if their play time is limited.
That said, if it's a fresh newbie, how do you propose to keep them in Lusternia if they just can't advance beyond novicehood for hours. Come on now, how entertaining is it to just have nothing to do? You're new in Lusty, you don't have friends to chat with on OOC clans, you are just stuck in Novicehood for an arbitrary amount of time because X and Y didn't do things right. And how do you know that other guilds do not suffer from the same problem in the first place so that even if you ditch the guild, you'd stick it out with Lusternia? Do I need to keep going? It's not exactly killing you in any fashion to have more people with the permission to do the GA job. Heck, being a secretary/GL is not a requirement for handing out GFs, nor is it a requirement to read guild logs or even outguild people... but god forbid someone tried to advance a Novice, oh no, not a chance in hell for that thing happening!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
What do you propose the Undersecs do, then? The reason I'm not thrilled is because 1) I don't think it's nearly the problem you say it is, 2) It's a player created, not a mechanical problem, and 3) If we're going to give the Undersec powers to non-Undersecs, I want to know what you think the mechanical purpose of the Undersecs should be (obviously, guilds can choose different RP jobs of all sorts).
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
What do you propose the Undersecs do, then? The reason I'm not thrilled is because 1) I don't think it's nearly the problem you say it is, 2) It's a player created, not a mechanical problem, and 3) If we're going to give the Undersec powers to non-Undersecs, I want to know what you think the mechanical purpose of the Undersecs should be (obviously, guilds can choose different RP jobs of all sorts).
Because every guild is flooded with GR19 people that are active? Are you even hearing yourself? We don't have even one of those in the Aeros, for instance. I'm proposing to make it an ability for people of GR10 and up, that's not exactly everyone in a guild, is it? I'm not saying make undersecs not do anything, I'm saying give the same ability to GR10+ people without them having to be undersecs. If a GR3 wants to advance novices, they still need to be an undersec to do so.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I am hearing myself. I still think it's a player-created problem. And I prefer player-created solutions to player-created problems. This problem is easily solved by the guild in question actually electing a GA, and that GA appointing more Undersecs--many of whom I am sure will be the same people you wish to give the privs to anyway.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Er, I think both sides are being a little ridiculous in this.
The 24 hour (or however long it is) thing for novices is just that - for worst-case-scenarios when there is no GA/Sec/Undersec available to progress said novice. If a novice finds themselves in such a position, they're right where the mechanics designed them to be: in the last-resort safety net. It's sure as hell not the end of the world for them. If they are complaining, explain to them the situation, that they're in the worst possible situation, and that things won't go any worse. As for doing things, org quests don't usually need high bashing abilities. The basic bashing ability of pre-specialisation guild skillsets should be enough for most newbies to complete org power quests to fill their time while they are waiting for either a GA/Sec/Undersec or the online time to come around and promote them to GR1, whichever comes first. All the better if you know the newbie on a personal level: RP with them instead, to fill their time.
Next, no one is asking to "strip" GAs of their powers. Helping novices is, in my personal opinion, an implicit responsibility and duty of ALL players, given our tiny, tiny population. Asking to get associated privs to do so at a rank ON TOP OF getting it as an undersec is... really not a big deal, considering that. Every GA I personally knew are all happy that there would be volunteers from their guild to perform undersec duties, even when they aren't undersecs - the moment the GAs hear about such people, they appoint them to undersec near immediately. It usually goes like this, "Oh, you helped this novice while I and the rest of the undersecs weren't around? GREAT THANK YOU, LET ME GIVE YOU A HUG. By the way, let me appoint you to undersec asap."
If you're worried about GR19s "usurping" your authority because they want to help newbies... you need to get your priorities in order as a GA. Protip: It should be newbies first, foremost, and only, and your pride in the dustbin.
Making advancement a rank-tied priv will just add another layer of safety net to newbie advancement, before they are dropped to the last-resort safety net mentioned above (the online time one). So it's... not a bad thing. I personally don't mind it being a rank-tied priv, though I don't see the need, but it certainly would not undermine GA authority or anything of that sort.
3
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
It's 10 hours as a novice.
Nothing I've argued has been about stripping GA's of the powers--or about me. I just want to know what, mechanically, we should do with Undersecs if we take away their uniqueness (unless there are other privs associated with Undersec. It has been a long time since I was just an Undersec).
And I argue against the idea that, without making this mechanical change, there is irreparable damage being done to newbies.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Why should we do anything to undersecs if the suggestion goes in? The suggestion is an added safety net. It's not going to replace undersecs.
Undersecs are appointed by the GAs to be the primary source of help newbies look for. They aren't going to look at a guildwho, see an undersec and a gr19 non undersec and ask for the gr19 to advance them (assuming they read the help files and know they're supposed to go look for undersecs). And if they DO choose gr19s over the undersec... big deal. They get the help they need, end of story.
Undersecs remain the most visible helpers of the guild, that newbies gravitate to, assuming they are told to look for them. Everyone should help out newbies when they can, undersecs are the ones that newbies are pointed to actively look for. Giving advancement privs to non undersecs lets newbies get advancement from non undersecs even when undersecs aren't around. Big deal. Undersecs still are the primary newbie helpers. Giving the priv to non undersecs will simply mean that newbies will get pushed to the last-resort safety net even more rarely than they are now. That's an absolutely superbly good thing.
Why should we do anything to undersecs if the suggestion goes in? The suggestion is an added safety net. It's not going to replace undersecs.
Undersecs are appointed by the GAs to be the primary source of help newbies look for. They aren't going to look at a guildwho, see an undersec and a gr19 non undersec and ask for the gr19 to advance them (assuming they read the help files and know they're supposed to go look for undersecs). And if they DO choose gr19s over the undersec... big deal. They get the help they need, end of story.
Undersecs remain the most visible helpers of the guild, that newbies gravitate to, assuming they are told to look for them. Everyone should help out newbies when they can, undersecs are the ones that newbies are pointed to actively look for. Giving advancement privs to non undersecs lets newbies get advancement from non undersecs even when undersecs aren't around. Big deal. Undersecs still are the primary newbie helpers. Giving the priv to non undersecs will simply mean that newbies will get pushed to the last-resort safety net even more rarely than they are now. That's an absolutely superbly good thing.
Lerad, the voice of reason. ;;)
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Comments
1) The GA can set the GUILD ADVANCE to a specific rank, meaning all of that rank or higher (Secretaries and Undersecretaries can always do it) can invoke GUILD ADVANCE, similar to newsboard access.
2) The GA can grant/revoke this permission to specific individuals (Secretaries and Undersecretaries can always do it), similar to GUILD CLASSFLEX.
3) Leave things as they are.
I'm happy with #3.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
But, seriously, the only purpose of Undersecs is advancement. What do you propose that should be replaced with if it's tied to GR instead of a position?
Signature!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I regularly do all this. I did all of it in just the last few days, most of it thus far today alone, and will fill out the rest before going to bed. The misuse of a tool does not deny the proper use of same.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
There's a reason why GR19 tends to sound like "in the Tainted Council of Geomagi".
It's because they all have at least some interest in novices and the guild. Former Champions aren't just buff ass PKers, even if they are; they're also the teachers of their guild's up and coming combatants.
Former Guildmasters probably still give a damn too. Anyone who makes it to the gr19 position should be given basic freedom to move novices around. That's the point of a GA having Undersecretaries and Secretaries -- to tend to that while they work on structuring the guild and its ranking process/settling inner disputes/looking for new RP/buying perks.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Though, I'm confused about the situation... novice times are set times. Eventually, the person will "graduate", all on their own, to GR1 if they wait around long enough. After that, anyone in the guild with favouring privs can advance them in rank. So, mechanically, the person isn't stuck anywhere because of a lack of Undersecs. If they can't advance any farther because the guild has said they cannot advance farther without explicit player input, it's not the mechanics that need to change--it's the guild.
That said, if it's a fresh newbie, how do you propose to keep them in Lusternia if they just can't advance beyond novicehood for hours. Come on now, how entertaining is it to just have nothing to do? You're new in Lusty, you don't have friends to chat with on OOC clans, you are just stuck in Novicehood for an arbitrary amount of time because X and Y didn't do things right. And how do you know that other guilds do not suffer from the same problem in the first place so that even if you ditch the guild, you'd stick it out with Lusternia? Do I need to keep going? It's not exactly killing you in any fashion to have more people with the permission to do the GA job. Heck, being a secretary/GL is not a requirement for handing out GFs, nor is it a requirement to read guild logs or even outguild people... but god forbid someone tried to advance a Novice, oh no, not a chance in hell for that thing happening!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Nothing I've argued has been about stripping GA's of the powers--or about me. I just want to know what, mechanically, we should do with Undersecs if we take away their uniqueness (unless there are other privs associated with Undersec. It has been a long time since I was just an Undersec).
And I argue against the idea that, without making this mechanical change, there is irreparable damage being done to newbies.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.