There's a distinct difference between selling something that is harmless to give away, and putting two thing together that quite often kills people. I'm afraid your metaphor is invalid, good sir.
There is no difference in the logic of it. Let me use algebra so that there are no other factors.
It is not the inherent properties of A or B that makes AB illegal, but rather the specific interaction between A and B is what is illegal.
They wrote drunk driving laws because drunk driving kills people. Why are you worried about what a genrunner can do? Afraid someone will steal your fire mantises?
As for me, I'll be using Saracen with no genrunner. I simply like the GUI, and I've used draylor's coding enough to know that he does decent work. I don't feel that just because I'm not going to use it, others shouldn't either.
Every greathunt or influencing contest I catch people abusing automated systems. They do this to cheat others out of the competition by putting in zero effort to defeat someone trying all-out (an autobasher is just more efficient than a human).
It is absolutely unfair to everyone else involved; it is saying "buy an autobasher or do not compete". Frankly, even the hotkey option still breaks the balance considerably, but it does at least ensure that if you get up for a snack or a restroom break that you stop (just like any other character).
It is absurd to pretend that this kind of system cannot screw over other players, because evidence is clearly against that stance.
PS: Your not using the genrunner is fine and dandy (especially since now you know it can get you shrubbed). That does not in any way validate its inlusion in the package in its current incarnation.
There's a distinct difference between selling something that is harmless to give away, and putting two thing together that quite often kills people. I'm afraid your metaphor is invalid, good sir.
There is no difference in the logic of it. Let me use algebra so that there are no other factors.
It is not the inherent properties of A or B that makes AB illegal, but rather the specific interaction between A and B is what is illegal.
They wrote drunk driving laws because drunk driving kills people. Why are you worried about what a genrunner can do? Afraid someone will steal your fire mantises?
Let me make it even more clearer:
A = Selling = Drinking = Pathfinding
B = Sex = Driving = Balance chaser
Interaction = Exploitation = Deaths = Genrunner
You were saying if A and B are legal by themselves, why then is AB illegal.
I'm saying it's the interaction that is illegal and not merely a simple addition of two legal things.
And if we want to continue with the drunk driving metaphor.. We've basically been told in the last few posts by an admin that drunk driving is illegal.
Then we had a player tell us that it's acceptable if you're drunk while driving a Ford Focus or a Lincoln Continental because you're less likely to be pulled over, but drunk driving a Porsche is a no-no, because it can go faster.
No, you have a player who is telling you that it is OK to drink -or- drive (automating one segment versus another), but not OK to do them both at the same time. Because, well, that is exactly what was said.
I mean, heck, admin-supported automated curing already exists (they wrote it). Some level of automation is rather expected. They have said over and over (and over and over and over...) that fully automating the entire thing so that you can just walk away from the machine while it cranks away for you is not a good thing.
No, what we have is a player who feels certain automation for profit/advancement is acceptable, but not others. It's interesting how Glomdoring all over this and defends vadi's automated influencing/bashing/mudlet mapper, but everything else is shady.
If it is not fully automated, I don't rant against it. If it is, I do. I have had this conversation quite extensively with Vadi (primarily back during the Crown days). To my knowledge, he did not go ahead and implement it (if he had, what would be the point of adding it again?)
I am going to have to peg this down as you not knowing what you are talking about, however, given that I did indeed argue against its inclusion in M&M. And, further, given that I do not even use it (or any of Vadi's scripts).
It is a very clear line to me. If you can walk away from the system and it continues to generate essence / gold for you, it is illegal automation. This stance has been backed up by the Administration repeatedly.
I am sorry if you do not like it, but if you want to claim hypocrisy you really need to be able to back it up. Otherwise it just looks like flailing in an attempt to /divert legitimate criticism.
I'm amused by your white knight tactics. Just because you heroically opposed Vadi adding in automation doesn't mean his automation doesn't apply to the arguement. Saracen does the same sort of stuff m&m can do in regards to balancing. With a simple install of vadi's and no modification, I can influence a stack of guards while I'm in the next room of my house. Why don't you oppose that?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
@Sidd: Please. If you are not interested in purchasing Saracen, go sell your animosity elsewhere? Many thanks.
@Draylor, please, if you want to make shady claims, provide more evidence than 'because I said so.' Seems you got caught in a lie, which you only have yourself to blame for.
To those people who have already paid for their copy of Saracen, could you, if you have not already, please provide me with an email address!
This is primarily to update my records on the server, such that I know who has purchased what. Shortly, this will be fully automated, but in the meantime...
And if we want to continue with the drunk driving metaphor.. We've basically been told in the last few posts by an admin that drunk driving is illegal.
Then we had a player tell us that it's acceptable if you're drunk while driving a Ford Focus or a Lincoln Continental because you're less likely to be pulled over, but drunk driving a Porsche is a no-no, because it can go faster.
No, you have a player who is telling you that it is OK to drink -or- drive (automating one segment versus another), but not OK to do them both at the same time. Because, well, that is exactly what was said.
I mean, heck, admin-supported automated curing already exists (they wrote it). Some level of automation is rather expected. They have said over and over (and over and over and over...) that fully automating the entire thing so that you can just walk away from the machine while it cranks away for you is not a good thing.
No, what we have is a player who feels certain automation for profit/advancement is acceptable, but not others. It's interesting how Glomdoring all over this and defends vadi's automated influencing/bashing/mudlet mapper, but everything else is shady.
If it is not fully automated, I don't rant against it. If it is, I do. I have had this conversation quite extensively with Vadi (primarily back during the Crown days). To my knowledge, he did not go ahead and implement it (if he had, what would be the point of adding it again?)
I am going to have to peg this down as you not knowing what you are talking about, however, given that I did indeed argue against its inclusion in M&M. And, further, given that I do not even use it (or any of Vadi's scripts).
It is a very clear line to me. If you can walk away from the system and it continues to generate essence / gold for you, it is illegal automation. This stance has been backed up by the Administration repeatedly.
I am sorry if you do not like it, but if you want to claim hypocrisy you really need to be able to back it up. Otherwise it just looks like flailing in an attempt to /divert legitimate criticism.
I'm amused by your white knight tactics. Just because you heroically opposed Vadi adding in automation doesn't mean his automation doesn't apply to the arguement. Saracen does the same sort of stuff m&m can do in regards to balancing. With a simple install of vadi's and no modification, I can influence a stack of guards while I'm in the next room of my house. Why don't you oppose that?
Does it move you to another room of guards when finished?
Because just using stratagems and server-side ego sipping I can do that very same thing, too. My objection is to the experience faucet that just keeps on going. When you are done in one place it takes you to another and starts all over again. Even if you are sleeping.
I have been extremely consistent on that stance here. You're the one who intentionally misreads my posts in order to "white knight" in defense of this system; a defense that seems extraordinarily unjustifiable with Eventru's post.
If M&M does in fact move you around as well as part of a comprehensive bashing / influencing package I will be happy to add it to my regularly scheduled issues and emails. You have no idea how many I have submitted on this subject over the years. It is one of my pet peeves.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I am still not getting why you feel occasional user input when running around an area would hurt the autobashing module, though. If people are at the keyboard, no big deal. If they are not, it saves them from themselves.
To me, that exemplifies "confidence and security".
HELP TRIGGERS and the like clearly state automated gold or experience gain is illegal – yes, I know people use them. Yes, it is quite difficult to prove when you're at the computer. However, inevitably you will do it without being at the computer, you will get caught, and you will not like it. Adding a "start" button for each room is a nice way to minimize abuse, but it doesn't nullify it – just because you used a start button on a stack of 300 guards doesn't make it okay for you to go make a sandwich.
The sale of scripts that encourage activity against the game policy is currently allowed – however, buyer beware. Just because you bought an automatic rifle legal doesn't mean you can run through a populated mall using it. Using these sort of scripts is "at your own risk" – if you are found, you'll be punished and that's entirely on you; it's not Saracen's fault, nor Draylor's fault, that he gave you the ability to "cheat" and you used it and got caught. I personally question the morality of selling something you know is illegal to use, but there it is; people will buy anything if they feel it gets them a one-up. By our very nature, human beings are painfully short-sighted.
All I've done is reiterate policies clearly stated in help files – policies that are not news to any of you. I don't understand the debate – if Draylor's wants to offer it, that's his decision. If we catch people using it and they start saying "but I paid credits for it", it'll be up to those who handle these policies to (once again) review our position on sales of systems with auto basher scripts. Crown ran into this problem, and Saracen may too. Alas, I left my crystal ball at home today.
Wait, what? M&M has an auto-influencer/basher? News to me, considering I had to write my own (That pretty much just loops through every critter with the same name in the current room, something I can just as easily accomplish by hitting sm add repeat point cudgel whatever)
M&M has NO OFFENSE in it, nothing of any kind, be it bashing or attacking enemies. It is left to the person using it to write their own the way they want. Sure, there's hooks you can use to link up with M&M's inherent functionality, but there is nothing included in the system as it comes out of the box. Where you found such is beyond me, but it isn't an M&M specific feature.
There is an influencing add-on that will influence whatever is in the current room only, never mind that writing an influencing script took all of three minutes to do. It's not exactly a complicated task. It still will not move you around and influence other stacks. You still have to do that yourself.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I suggested to Draylor a while back to add a toggle for requiring a hotkey to clear a room, and it's only common sense anyway; you don't want to genrun into a kephera hive and get eaten by 20 princes and 12 kephera katana karatekas with a kungfu grip. He'll likely add it, and people can quit complaining. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.
But how is an admin going to know if a person is using a hotkey or not? What difference does it really make, if it only makes sure you are at the keyboard when you switch rooms? How is this scenario any different than what we already have right now?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
The basher takes into account total number of mobs in a room, don't worry
m&m indeed has zero offense built in. This is where Saracen comes in. Whether you wish for it to fully automate your offense (Yes, this is an option, although not standard). or simply kill stuff it sees, the option is really up to you.
There is a comprehensive settings system available that is able to be toggled via both the UI and API to steer you well clear of any 'issues' you might encounter.
To reiterate, yes... Saracen does indeed have the capability to completely bash out an entire area with absolutely no user interaction, but whether you choose to exercise this feature is totally up to you. (It is -not- available as a standard feature and requires an explicit setting to enable).
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Basically, the argument isn't that this code for sale is against the rules, but that it's unethical to provide such an easy way to break the rules. From what you've said, your code is very good at enabling such rule-breaking without any effort on the part of the user or without any modifications or changes. You're right, it's not technically your fault if people misuse something you create to do something against the rules, but you have to know and understand that it will increase the instance of rule-breaking, and these rules are there for a reason. You're making it very incredibly easy for people to do wrong things, when things could easily be tweaked so that it's not so out-of-the-box rule-breaking. If you had to fiddle with/modify the system, or confirm that true autobashing is really what you want to be doing, fine - That just doesn't sound like what you're saying it does.
Autobashing is perfectly legal, "So long as you remain at your keyboard".
@Enya: Whilst I do not find myself disagreeing with you on any points raised... Quite the opposite, in fact.. and without reiterating what has already been said, it's simply the case that usage is down to each person.
Why not just make it so you have to toggle the 'full autobasher' on yourself. That is, the script out of the box won't do it, so if you just start regular bashing and (say) have to dash off because your dog started regurgitating in the next room, it won't continue bashing without you... unless you explicitly 'told' the system to do that: flicked a few switches, jumped a hoop. Presto, the user had to intentionally set up the system to do the autobashing themselves, and could not accidentally used afk autobashing without meaning to.
Autobashing is perfectly legal, "So long as you remain at your keyboard".
@Enya: Whilst I do not find myself disagreeing with you on any points raised... Quite the opposite, in fact.. and without reiterating what has already been said, it's simply the case that usage is down to each person.
1) no where did any admin state that just being at your keyboard made it legal, they just said it is harder to prove.
2) are you admitting that you are being unethical by agreeing with Enyalida?
Autobashing is perfectly legal, "So long as you remain at your keyboard".
@Enya: Whilst I do not find myself disagreeing with you on any points raised... Quite the opposite, in fact.. and without reiterating what has already been said, it's simply the case that usage is down to each person.
No, it isn't.
15.8 TRIGGERS, AUTOMATION, AND AUTO (AUTORAT, AUTOBASH ETC)
Triggers and automation are allowed in most cases as long as they are not used
for gaining gold or experience, whether you are AFK or not.
What is not allowed?
Auto ratting, auto weeviling, auto questing, auto bashing, auto aetherspace
hunting (and auto pretty much everything else).
1) that you automate via triggers, and
2) that you use to gain gold or experience.
If you set up a system that allows your character to bash, heal and move around
to the point where you can fall asleep at your keyboard (or be in another
window) and your character continues to bash and gain experience, then you are
setting yourself up for permanent shrubbing--because everyone with such systems
(if they don't immediately AFK) eventually succumbs through laziness or
complacency. We suggest you immediately disable such systems.
Automated play in any form is likely to constitute a violation of our rules.
Penalties will depend on the context. In extreme cases, a violation may be
Auto ratting, auto weeviling, auto questing, auto bashing, auto aetherspace
hunting (and auto pretty much everything else).
So are we saying that Saracen is illegal now?
I thought we had it very clear-cut here. It's fine and is down to each player's use of said scripts. It's certainly not outside of the bounds of game rules in my selling it.
To reiterate, yes... Saracen does indeed have the capability to completely bash out an entire area with absolutely no user interaction, but whether you choose to exercise this feature is totally up to you. (It is -not- available as a standard feature and requires an explicit setting to enable).
/chin
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
2) are you admitting that you are being unethical by agreeing with Enyalida?
Am agreeing to nothing. Saracen does what it says it does and does it extremely well.
Pretty sure you just said you agreed with Enyalida, who was discussing the unethical nature of providing a set of scripts that allows someone to break rules without trying.
It could be said that continually misconstruing admin statements to defend yourself is unethical as well
Comments
As for me, I'll be using Saracen with no genrunner. I simply like the GUI, and I've used draylor's coding enough to know that he does decent work. I don't feel that just because I'm not going to use it, others shouldn't either.
Every greathunt or influencing contest I catch people abusing automated systems. They do this to cheat others out of the competition by putting in zero effort to defeat someone trying all-out (an autobasher is just more efficient than a human).
It is absolutely unfair to everyone else involved; it is saying "buy an autobasher or do not compete". Frankly, even the hotkey option still breaks the balance considerably, but it does at least ensure that if you get up for a snack or a restroom break that you stop (just like any other character).
It is absurd to pretend that this kind of system cannot screw over other players, because evidence is clearly against that stance.
PS: Your not using the genrunner is fine and dandy (especially since now you know it can get you shrubbed). That does not in any way validate its inlusion in the package in its current incarnation.
Because just using stratagems and server-side ego sipping I can do that very same thing, too. My objection is to the experience faucet that just keeps on going. When you are done in one place it takes you to another and starts all over again. Even if you are sleeping.
I have been extremely consistent on that stance here. You're the one who intentionally misreads my posts in order to "white knight" in defense of this system; a defense that seems extraordinarily unjustifiable with Eventru's post.
If M&M does in fact move you around as well as part of a comprehensive bashing / influencing package I will be happy to add it to my regularly scheduled issues and emails. You have no idea how many I have submitted on this subject over the years. It is one of my pet peeves.
I am still not getting why you feel occasional user input when running around an area would hurt the autobashing module, though. If people are at the keyboard, no big deal. If they are not, it saves them from themselves.
To me, that exemplifies "confidence and security".
HELP TRIGGERS and the like clearly state automated gold or experience gain is illegal – yes, I know people use them. Yes, it is quite difficult to prove when you're at the computer. However, inevitably you will do it without being at the computer, you will get caught, and you will not like it. Adding a "start" button for each room is a nice way to minimize abuse, but it doesn't nullify it – just because you used a start button on a stack of 300 guards doesn't make it okay for you to go make a sandwich.
The sale of scripts that encourage activity against the game policy is currently allowed – however, buyer beware. Just because you bought an automatic rifle legal doesn't mean you can run through a populated mall using it. Using these sort of scripts is "at your own risk" – if you are found, you'll be punished and that's entirely on you; it's not Saracen's fault, nor Draylor's fault, that he gave you the ability to "cheat" and you used it and got caught. I personally question the morality of selling something you know is illegal to use, but there it is; people will buy anything if they feel it gets them a one-up. By our very nature, human beings are painfully short-sighted.
All I've done is reiterate policies clearly stated in help files – policies that are not news to any of you. I don't understand the debate – if Draylor's wants to offer it, that's his decision. If we catch people using it and they start saying "but I paid credits for it", it'll be up to those who handle these policies to (once again) review our position on sales of systems with auto basher scripts. Crown ran into this problem, and Saracen may too. Alas, I left my crystal ball at home today.
M&M has NO OFFENSE in it, nothing of any kind, be it bashing or attacking enemies. It is left to the person using it to write their own the way they want. Sure, there's hooks you can use to link up with M&M's inherent functionality, but there is nothing included in the system as it comes out of the box. Where you found such is beyond me, but it isn't an M&M specific feature.
There is an influencing add-on that will influence whatever is in the current room only, never mind that writing an influencing script took all of three minutes to do. It's not exactly a complicated task. It still will not move you around and influence other stacks. You still have to do that yourself.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
But how is an admin going to know if a person is using a hotkey or not? What difference does it really make, if it only makes sure you are at the keyboard when you switch rooms? How is this scenario any different than what we already have right now?
2) are you admitting that you are being unethical by agreeing with Enyalida?
/chin
Pretty sure you just said you agreed with Enyalida, who was discussing the unethical nature of providing a set of scripts that allows someone to break rules without trying.
It could be said that continually misconstruing admin statements to defend yourself is unethical as well